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A wise choice of reporting, to only report the imprisonment of the theater commander who we will never see in an actual battle report, thus avoiding the awkward fact that in HoI3 generals are never captured.
That list of troops looks incredibly worn-down, barely over half strength across the board. They must have been almost glad to give up, though I suspect the Soviets will soon make them regret such fancies!
Looks like a potential Warsaw Pocket here if things keep going well. Turkey may be called upon once more to advance in spite of her manpower losses.In East Prussia, Königsberg was now well secured; Soviet forces advanced on Danzig and still threatened Warsaw. To the south, Romanian and Soviet troops were now massed and had relieved Turkey’s extended eastern line there all the way to Krakow.
As winter is now upon us I would say the time for offensives is past. Let the Soviet steamroller do the heavy lifting, and quietly redeploy our troops as they advance.
I say hold off. The Soviets can deal with Finland once the European war is wrapped up, while we deal with Spain to get our last VC. There is no rush right now, and splitting attention between too many fronts ensures that none shall progress at a suitably rapid pace.
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It looks like the formations around poland are very spread thin. Despite our horrifying losses, perhaps some tanks and motorised infantry could exploit this and acheive a second leningrad encirclement?
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You know, about Perse, I feel that we should launch an attack immediately! As long as the americans are our bedfellows, a random greek national catching a minor case of assasination may be overlooked, but should we delay, and the war ends, the links binding turkey and america become more tenous, forcing turkey to have to be more subtle.
However, if we cannot spare the men to enact such a dangerous operation, perhaps we may continue for the moment to ignore her and instead assasinate the british propagandists responsible for not including Turkey on this poster
Because seriously, the british have done so little to win that fucking Tanna Tuva should be on this poster instead
However, if we cannot spare the men to enact such a dangerous operation, perhaps we may continue for the moment to ignore her and instead assasinate the british propagandists responsible for not including Turkey on this poster
Because seriously, the british have done so little to win that fucking Tanna Tuva should be on this poster instead
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by the way, should we try to somehow drag China into this war?
China, I have found is surpisingly strong should they get any support, and while I doubt it will be overly important, perhaps once we have have acheived self-actualisation, i.e rome/ berlin / Tarranto, We can just influence mexico and set up a coup in canada, so the US would have no excuse, and be forced to fight japan
Which reminds me, What do coups do?
China, I have found is surpisingly strong should they get any support, and while I doubt it will be overly important, perhaps once we have have acheived self-actualisation, i.e rome/ berlin / Tarranto, We can just influence mexico and set up a coup in canada, so the US would have no excuse, and be forced to fight japan
Which reminds me, What do coups do?
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Pleased to say I have finally caught up on this excellent AAR. No quotes because I've been reading on my phone, but I've really enjoyed the intrigue, OTL notes, and detailed battle reporting. The strategy discussions are also really good, so overall, it's been quite the AAR!
I have to say I'm rooting for Perse over Cennet, but I'm sure it will be an epic clash.
The war seems like it's nearly over, but Turkish forces still have to take all of Italy, which will probably take a long time. Can Germany continue to fight into occupied France, or does the war end when Germany itself is occupied?
I have to say I'm rooting for Perse over Cennet, but I'm sure it will be an epic clash.
The war seems like it's nearly over, but Turkish forces still have to take all of Italy, which will probably take a long time. Can Germany continue to fight into occupied France, or does the war end when Germany itself is occupied?
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Replaces both government type and the cabinet.
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Still a ways off playing and writing up the next month, but there's been plenty of commentary so I thought I'd do some replies now.
2) All three will be. Something will be done, and I suspect some form of naval landing will be part of it, but timing is again the thing.
3) In gameplay terms, Vuichy France is neither here nor there if they stay neutral for the next little while. Getting Syria would be useful at some point, but France/Paris are not Comintern war objectives. Nice to have, may be useful as a stepping stone to Spain if necessary (another war objective) but otherwise peripheral. And I'm not really worried about post-game post-war geography. It will sort itself out in the non-game future.
Yes, the Soviets could well be pushing into Germany by then and the Germans might even collapse (though they've been pretty tenacious so far). But the Italians still need to be defeated and Spain taken in the Comintern, so amphibious ops may well be called for, I feel.
But yes, time to hunker down, try to staunch the bleeding, keep shortening the line, build manpower and the fighter stocks, then see what might present itself in the new year. If the Germans switch back priority to Germany-Poland, that might present a few limited opportunities to pick low-hanging fruit over the winter.
If I can though, I will, and we've made a bit of a start on it south of Vienna, despite everything.
Though if Germany and Italy are defeated, maybe the British will be able to do something, as Japan will then be the ones with a two-front war.
The troops in the pocket had been through a lot of fighting, the Germans were already short of MP before they were cut off, and one would think the limited replacements they get each month would have been unavailable towards the end, especially when they were also cut off from port access as well.
Nice poster. It's funny, in TTL we lead the way in the Anti-Fascist Coalition, while in OTL Turkey only entered the war just as it was finishing. Britain ... where is that, again?
So glad to have you aboard. And thanks also for the generous comments - and the commentAARs have definitely added much to the thread (and managed to sometimes get themselves mixed up in the plot along the way).
Exactly. That's why it's either now, or wait until at least Germany is defeated.
1) Finland is one of the victory objectives per the game, and that's my aim (to get to 12/15) and given Asia would be hard, Finland is an absolute must. Just a matter of timing. It would be left entirely up to the Soviets, but do we egg them into it?
2) All three will be. Something will be done, and I suspect some form of naval landing will be part of it, but timing is again the thing.
3) In gameplay terms, Vuichy France is neither here nor there if they stay neutral for the next little while. Getting Syria would be useful at some point, but France/Paris are not Comintern war objectives. Nice to have, may be useful as a stepping stone to Spain if necessary (another war objective) but otherwise peripheral. And I'm not really worried about post-game post-war geography. It will sort itself out in the non-game future.
This is a very valid option, of course. Though if Germany id gone, the Soviets would have no problems taking down Finland themselves, whether Italy is finished yet or not (I suspect they may outlast Germany in TTL).
They do seem to now be dithering a bit, after having taken Sydney and Brisbane. Last time I looked there were basically no troops on the mainland. Will check again next time to see if they've sent any back home.
The time may have passed for now, but may come in 1944 - even if it is Anzio-style leapfrogging operations to assist a strike from the north, if that proves feasible. The Soviets and Romanians are now sending plenty across and we've already started to shorten the line in the east quite a bit, and I hope with more to come. That will keep taking pressure off the rest of the line (more units per province, stronger defence, fewer to defend) so freeing up and reinforcing (by being selective on the upgrade settings) a maritime landing and exploitation force might be possible. And if it saves lives from a front-on only offensive through a narrow and easily defended northern Italy approach, then that's good too.
Yes, the Soviets could well be pushing into Germany by then and the Germans might even collapse (though they've been pretty tenacious so far). But the Italians still need to be defeated and Spain taken in the Comintern, so amphibious ops may well be called for, I feel.
But yes, time to hunker down, try to staunch the bleeding, keep shortening the line, build manpower and the fighter stocks, then see what might present itself in the new year. If the Germans switch back priority to Germany-Poland, that might present a few limited opportunities to pick low-hanging fruit over the winter.
Despite the bloodshed, there was still some reasonable success. It was really just those air strike casualties that hurt so bad.
Don't know, will have a look some time. I couldn't afford the manpower and haven't been able to for some time (plus I have a good number of HArm bdes for a small army), so haven't been checking.
It may have taken a little longer than I'd hoped, but the Comintern AIs are doing pretty well, really.
For now, I think this will all be left to the Romanians and their Soviet support. If it happens, nice, if not then my divisions will have already redeployed to the Vienna-Adriatic sector for the next phase, the proposed northern Italian drive plus amphibious end run.
Definitely, but the last time I tried it I got driven out again, and that was before the big manpower bleed-out.
If I can though, I will, and we've made a bit of a start on it south of Vienna, despite everything.I don't think anyone will.
Though if Germany and Italy are defeated, maybe the British will be able to do something, as Japan will then be the ones with a two-front war.That could be a risk, though they handles the two main fronts plus the Leningrad-Karelian pocket well enough. Manpower is a bit constricting, but bearable I think. Could slow things down for the defeat of Italy, but the Soviets will have no such problems in Germany.
As mentioned below by TBC, a very Soviet perpsective re manpower, but still a fair point. I keep being reminded of Britain after D-Day, where fear of sustaining heavy casualties inevitably influenced op tempo for them. Will see what we can do on the Vienna-Trieste line, but it will be 'art of the possible' as things develop.
Yes, it's a problematic call re Finland in an operational sense. As for casus belli, might=right and its a game objective, which I've said from the start is a principal driver, so from my in-game perspective Finland is both a legitimate and indeed necessary target. It's the timing only that's at issue. The Amercians will go along, as they are Comintern so it's now (by association) one of their objectives too (ie not just a Soviet thing - it's the whole pact, which in TTL isn't dominated by the Soviets the same way it was in OTL).
I'd rationalise it in-universe as (like when we 'attacked' the Germans in 1940) us persuading the Soviets to do it, or just a decision by Stalin, encouraged along by us. I'm not going to wait for the Soviet AI to do it! I won't tag to make it happen, but the corollary of not doing any of that kind of thing is that if a have a game mechanic available to make it happen, there'll be no quibbling about using it. All's fair and all that ...
Per above, other than engineering the DoW, Turkey will have nothing at all to do with a Finland attack. It would just be thrown into Uncle Joe's lap and left to him to sort out! I suspect they now have the troops to both take Germany down and do the same to Finland (probably using what they did to take the Karelian pocket down), but it could well slow things down comapred to leaving Finland until later, so that remains a definite 'con' to a DoW now. Then again, perhaps it would bring the New World Order more quickly in the end ...
Per above. In effect, it would be treated as a Soviet DoW to all intents and purposes, even if the game makes me do it and the Soviets follow, given there is no game mechanic that let's be ask them directly.
No spoilers here. And I haven't decided yet how it will play out. Anything could happen!
All amphibious options remain on the table for now; where and how large they might be will depend on events between now and perhaps Spring 1944.
Yes, very.
Quite.
The troops in the pocket had been through a lot of fighting, the Germans were already short of MP before they were cut off, and one would think the limited replacements they get each month would have been unavailable towards the end, especially when they were also cut off from port access as well.
I suspect they will be able to handle it themselves. I think some of my mech units were down well below 50% strength as October ended. I need to rest them and could still be taking appreciable casualties during the winter. We kicked the door in in Central Europe; I'll let Romania and the Soviets storm through it now, I reckon.
Mainly, yes. Though some local opportunity attacks (as opposed to major offensives) could still be possible. But the Steamroller, though it took a while to get into gear, now seems to be rolling and grinding along.
This makes much sense. Or will the Turkish Cabinet get all adventurous (well, on the Soviets' behalf)?
Per above, a few months ago that was exactly what we were doing. Now, I think the Comintern Partners are there in enough strength to do it themselves. I need to husband resources for the final (hoipefull) push in 1944.
We'll see with Perse. She is, after all, a patriot for her own country (a co-belligerent) and never did anything to directly harm either Turkey or the Soviets (unlike those actual traitors in MI6). But will that save her? Hmmm ....You know, about Perse, I feel that we should launch an attack immediately! As long as the americans are our bedfellows, a random greek national catching a minor case of assasination may be overlooked, but should we delay, and the war ends, the links binding turkey and america become more tenous, forcing turkey to have to be more subtle.
However, if we cannot spare the men to enact such a dangerous operation, perhaps we may continue for the moment to ignore her and instead assasinate the british propagandists responsible for not including Turkey on this poster
Because seriously, the british have done so little to win that fucking Tanna Tuva should be on this poster instead
Nice poster. It's funny, in TTL we lead the way in the Anti-Fascist Coalition, while in OTL Turkey only entered the war just as it was finishing. Britain ... where is that, again?
Re China, I doubt it. It would be very useful, but I'd never be able to spare the LS to influence them myself and not sure if the British would bother. Same re Mexico: unless the Soviets or Americans do it, can't spare the LS for that long an influence campaign. Nor is Turkey worried about Japan in TTL: there should be sufficient objectives in Europe to win this thing. Japan can probably be left to a hypothetical future (they'd be doomed anyway with the Soviets and Amercians against them fighting on the same side).
Thanks so much for that very dedicated 'stern chase' to catch up!
So glad to have you aboard. And thanks also for the generous comments - and the commentAARs have definitely added much to the thread (and managed to sometimes get themselves mixed up in the plot along the way).I also have a soft spot for her, as well as Cennet. How might it end? I might be getting my old D&D percentile dice out eventually to sort out what happens!
It is moving to its later phase, for sure, but there may well still be plenty of fight left in the enemy yet. Germany would lose too many VPs v national unity to be able to carry on the war from France, I'd say. Losing the bulk of the Fatherland will doom them, without doubt.
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It took a while, but it's definitely been worth it. Glad to join in and backseat strategize with the rest!Thanks so much for that very dedicated 'stern chase' to catch up!
I think the dice is the only fair way to go! If you got really crazy, it could be some sort of choose your own adventure where the dice determine the path, making it even more back and forth.I also have a soft spot for her, as well as Cennet. How might it end? I might be getting my old D&D percentile dice out eventually to sort out what happens!
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you played D&D too? Man you're such a cool dadI also have a soft spot for her, as well as Cennet. How might it end? I might be getting my old D&D percentile dice out eventually to sort out what happens!
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Played it when it first came out in the mid-70s, in little paperback books. Still have them!you played D&D too? Man you're such a cool dad
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It’s most appreciated. You’ll see now why the war-weariness of the protagonists is weighing heavily on them. The Turks have been at war for most of the last six years or so.
yes, a d&d style event chain could be in order. Though I may just make the call when the time feels right. It also riffs off in-game espionage events.
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I am within an year. Will the organization known as UselessNincompoops not exist in this alternate post war era? Hopefully, many many Americans and Russians will become GOOD Americans and GOOD Russians as martyrs in the fight against Imperial Japan. Why do I suspect that Greater Turkey will dissolve before 1960? This is a nation of disparate religions and cultures held together by fear of Cousin Adolf and Uncle Joe. Unless Turkey acquires a ruler who makes Genghis Khan resemble Gandhi, the unraveling will be fast and brutal with centuries of hatred exposed.
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Remember how long ataturk lived!
If we can pull off the same thing with inonu, we could definitely last at least one Yugoslavia
If we can pull off the same thing with inonu, we could definitely last at least one Yugoslavia
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I think real life İnönü would only hold on to only a bit more (where Turkish people live, or strategic points) than the national pact borders and release the rest to at least a loose confederation or full independence after the war ends, so that should probably prevent any implosion
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I'm thinking a proto EU type situation headed by Italy and Turkey (who are in a personal union type deal) for the most realistic and stable long term solution.
Short term of course Turkey heads a much more closely linked coalition rebuilding Europe. I expect the idea will be to eventually and gradually let the balakns loose, with an eye to regional stability (this probably means cutting the regions up into as small a prices as possible so no cultural or ethnival dividing occurs) but this will be difficult and probably not done spectacularly well. It should all stabilise out in the end though, and hopefully faster and better than OTL given that there's money and close foreign attention being paid to the place constantly.
Turkey can always try ruling their slice of europe like the Soviets but not only will this collapse and leave Turkey isolated and hated, but it also flies in the face of their ideology and practices anyway, and would piss off the US who we need to balance out the Soviet connection.
Yes, I think the EU common market will be most likely, and probably will end up promoting a similar system in the north between France, Germany etc (who are all probably nominally in the SU but also probably basxially independent as well).
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I'd expect some of the industry and design houses of Italy to be moved back to Turkey as reparations, but yes Italy would be independent as well. A PU (well, without monarchies one can call it strategic partners maybe?) would be a logical way to go.
I'd expect the Black Sea coast of Bulgaria and Romania, West Thrace (minus the fingers of Chalkidiki) and definitely at least parts of Macedonia to stay Turkish. Albanians (including Kosovo) can have their own country of if they choose so, might stay in as well (I'd think they would). Looking at ethnic and religious maps of Yugoslavia gives me headaches, I think the best way would be to separate Northern Croats and Southern Croats so there can be a viable Serbian nation in west Bosnia. Montenegro will always be Montenegro, because, well they are Montenegrins! Serbia will be more or less modern day Serbia minus Senta and some surrounding area which would go to Hungary and Bor with some surrounding area which would go to Romania. Greece is modern Greece minus Western Thrace and Thessaloniki, and some of the easternmost islands.
In fact, the previous is more or less straightforward, what do you think about Italy? Will it stay one piece or split into some pieces? Lombard/Italian split maybe?
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Believe it or not, that will probably be a matter if negotiation. I expect the US will not care how we carve up the balkans, but approve of the way we are planning on doing (detailed above by you). Stalin probably won't either, so long as there isn't any trouble there (I.e. something that requires Soviet troops there).
But western Europe? Stalin is going to get Eastern Europe already in the SU probably similar to OTL. Germany will probably be like east Germany otl, only much more indepfant cos larger and wealthier as a whole. France...depends on who gets there first but it looks like we will. So some form of socialist Republic, maybe a somewhat indepdannt one that's neither a Russian nor Turkish puppet. That'd probably be something the US can accept (for now anyway) so long as there are elections and stuff. Same for the rest of western Europe like the low countries etc.
Spain depends on what we do with it, and the same for the vichy France regions in Africa and the Middle East. Sticking with the proto EU idea, we may well scoop up all these soon to be indepdnant former protectorates and colonies into the economic pact. Amercians will like that, it keeps them away from stalin and the no good British commonwealth, and they can buy into their markets too.
As for Italy, I suspect some form of partition is inevitable, especially if we do end up fighting up from Sicily and down from the alps at the same time. Probably a lombardia/romagna state, a naples state and maybe an independent sicily and sardinia too. The Italian empire not annexed by the British (so Libya) will probably get indepfance and drawn into the EU pact.
So by 1960 say, the map looks like how you say for the balkans, hopefully Rhodes and Cyprus are with Turkey proper as well, Italy split up in some fashion, France (maybe low countries) independent and socialist, the rest of Europe split between SU and GNR spheres of influence (Turkey might insist on Austria as a puppet for the crack), and the middle east and north Africa decolonised and in the GNR Economic Area Group (whatever we call it).
The US and USSR are cold war enemies, Turkey manages a huge buffer zone in-between them, and most are fine with this status quo. Hopefully the british either piss off soon after the war ends or they have a suez type situation and the other big three collectively force them to hand over their north African, Mediterranean and Middle Eastern stuff to the locals.
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Some good speculations here. I won’t spoil a possible end of game wrap-up too much by responding in great detail, but will put out a small supplement with some additional info on the position in Australia (per @37th Armoured div ’s earlier questions) and mention something in that.
The next month is all played through and I’m well into the image editing for the next chapter. Once those ‘story boards’ are done, the write up will start. So still a bit to do, but there are some interesting developments and I hope you will all enjoy it!
The next month is all played through and I’m well into the image editing for the next chapter. Once those ‘story boards’ are done, the write up will start. So still a bit to do, but there are some interesting developments and I hope you will all enjoy it!
A big effort - thank you! And a good debate kicked off. But I won’t spoil things for you here. Suffice to say if Turkey does manage to be on the winning side, the geography of any speculative/hypothetical settlement will be determined (as it was in OTL) by who gets what after the fighting, then the general approach they take to managing what they grab and keeping the greasy mitts of erstwhile wartime allies off it!
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Warning: if you are reading and not yet up to date, the following includes a minor spoiler.
And now just some very general comments on the post-war settlement discussion. This bit is only slightly spoilerish, unless you are very early in reading the story. In which case you're probably not reading current posts if trying to avoid spoilers!
As I have often mentioned during the AAR, if/when the war is won to 12 objectives, that will be the end of the game and signal the end of the AAR.
But I do plan to finish with a short post-war settlement report, depending on how it finishes. And then the readerAARship will be able to speculate freely on how this may work out in the mid-longer term in what will be a very different (and in some respects very Paradoxian) altiverse.
General principles Inonu has in mind at present are (as some have mused) to probably keep only 'core' lands in Turkey proper, releasing the rest as puppets as part of some post-war Turkish grouping of nations. Probably more like a Warsaw Pact and/or NATO/EU familiar to OTL. Definitely not a revival of the Ottoman Empire or probably even an attempt to continue the UGNR in its current game-related form (ie most of the members as conquered countries).
Speculation will then take hold no doubt about how the very artificial Comintern Pact falls out and how the member countries/blocs might relate to each other in the first blush of post-war glory (if it comes to that) and later. And noting there could still be a long non-game war against Japan to conduct if Europe falls first and Japan and its bloc fight on (which I won't be covering, unless I need to to get that 12th victory objective).
But first, chickens and eggs, etc, gotta win a war first!
Thanks for all the comments and support, hope to get the next chapter up in the next day or two.
First, some supplementary info on Australia (as at end October 1943), for @37th Armoured div and any others who may be interested.
So, other than a Theatre HQ, no Australian or Allied combat units were present in the whole eastern seaboard to contest the Japanese invasion that started in Sydney. There are some troops (infra isolated) in the north-west, from Broome to Darwin.
And as seasoned players would have expected, the bulk of the army is spread through New Guinea and he islands.
ReadAARs will have to wait until the end of November for the next Aussie update - unless anything significant comes to attention before then.
And as seasoned players would have expected, the bulk of the army is spread through New Guinea and he islands.
And now just some very general comments on the post-war settlement discussion. This bit is only slightly spoilerish, unless you are very early in reading the story. In which case you're probably not reading current posts if trying to avoid spoilers!
As noted before, the AAR won't necessarily continue against Japan (world domination and the flogging of slowly dying horses not being the aim of the story - which is from the Turkish perspective and game-driven). For the rest, see below ...
As I have often mentioned during the AAR, if/when the war is won to 12 objectives, that will be the end of the game and signal the end of the AAR.
But I do plan to finish with a short post-war settlement report, depending on how it finishes. And then the readerAARship will be able to speculate freely on how this may work out in the mid-longer term in what will be a very different (and in some respects very Paradoxian) altiverse.
General principles Inonu has in mind at present are (as some have mused) to probably keep only 'core' lands in Turkey proper, releasing the rest as puppets as part of some post-war Turkish grouping of nations. Probably more like a Warsaw Pact and/or NATO/EU familiar to OTL. Definitely not a revival of the Ottoman Empire or probably even an attempt to continue the UGNR in its current game-related form (ie most of the members as conquered countries).
Speculation will then take hold no doubt about how the very artificial Comintern Pact falls out and how the member countries/blocs might relate to each other in the first blush of post-war glory (if it comes to that) and later. And noting there could still be a long non-game war against Japan to conduct if Europe falls first and Japan and its bloc fight on (which I won't be covering, unless I need to to get that 12th victory objective).
But first, chickens and eggs, etc, gotta win a war first!
Thanks for all the comments and support, hope to get the next chapter up in the next day or two.
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