The Wars of the Roses

[TheExecuter]

A lifetime of loyalty as he had promised. And he died just as he had said...in service to the King

Nope. He died in service to the Queen, lying to himself to the end.

What a fool.

How about this scene when he definitely suggests he does not back the Queen but rather the King? To quote him - "I do not answer to the Queen. I only answer to His Grace the King. And the Lord of York has offended him."

Actions speak much louder than words sir. Buckingham's refusal to enable the King to deal with the Queen speak much louder than his words professing loyalty.

He got the end he deserved...and I will not think it an honorable or a wise end...but a fitting end for a naive fool.

 

[TheExecuter]

“My Lady Queen...” Jasper replied, “...I am true to my brother.”

Ouch.

In a way, I'm glad Queen Margaret didn't die...I kind of want to see her comeback for a time, if only to make the other Lord's earn their victory.

Jasper and Margaret taking the Prince of Wales and having him be absent from this scene is...disquieting...especially considering Margaret Beaufort's earlier desire for chaos and death...

 

[TheExecuter]

The Earl nearly spit, “That much is true. Certainly not yourself. If you hold any honor left, my Lord...do as I say. Find the Queen. For you are correct...neither King nor York would have you!”

NO!

Go back to your wife, man!

Agh...

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

Fb-fb:

He's not going to drink their blood milkshake.

I wasn't thinking about chaning Dick's diet, but in a way to find some use to unsued poles...

 

[TheExecuter]

“And I see no reason to place fear upon these children,” Salisbury looked to them all, “For I truly believe that we have seen the worst of it. Were the King not in Westminster, I might say otherwise but he is away from her and thus she is far away from the rest of us.”

LOL...ah the naivety of when we close our eyes to the truth because the truth scares us...

How were nobles this naive?

think that is much the reason Jasper quickly moved her off to Scotland to begin with. Harder to get to her. As for Cecily, it is odd (and I found myself thinking the same when I wrote it) but I left it in there because it made sense that her first motivation would be to see her husband and see him rewarded, but cannot forget about Margaret. It's there too. Salisbury is much the same (though perhaps too bright eyed about it.)

Personally, I think Jasper realizes that young Henry (potentially the VII) needs Margaret to make a comeback and more Lords to die before he has a reasonable chance to be a contender for the crown.

Jasper and Margaret are folks I'm keeping an eye on, if only for the fact that they seem to at least understand what is happening.

“It is the sacrament, Ned!” Henry Beaufort answered strongly.

Even the sacrament has its roots in logical reality...claiming a sacrament is sufficient on its own is a common heresy.

 

[TheExecuter]

Because we are better than the rest, my Lady Beaufort,” Sir Henry held his new wife’s hand, “Of greater stock and as much pedigree as any other that may lay claim. Though I be not Duke, I remain with extensive lands. Though I be not Lord, I am the Stafford that matters now. We will be wooed, you and I. I believe better together than apart. And in time...I endeavor to mayhap change your mind on the other?”

Margaret held his hand tightly, “You do not know all of my history, sir.”

“I am not Edmund Tudor...Margaret,” Sir Henry Stafford answered with an honest face, “I will wait for you.

Aw.

Also, Henry Holland take note...

 

[TheExecuter]

To most Lords present, the feeling was profound dismay. How could they be expected to uphold his claim as they had already taken an oath of allegiance to Henry VI?

Oh please.

If these Lords were truly thinking that...then they are all fools and the country would be better off without them.

No wonder the outcome of the WotR was so good for the kingdom...most of these fools end up dead.

I am getting flashbacks to Game of Thrones and my hopes that the Night King would come south, kill everyone, and sit on the Iron Throne.

 

[TheExecuter]

“That is not your right, Dickon!” Salisbury remained angry, “I did not put mine to pay for this! Good governance it is always said and our chance...not this other! King Henry is rightful as sovereign. You know it as well as I!”

And what has that sovereign done for you and your family? Did you ENJOY being attainted? Did you like having your sons to the Tower?

Warwick spoke out, “I see not how in this state.”

This is...a continuity error?

Did not Warwick spend MULTIPLE chapters fighting to kill the queen and place York to the throne?

I don't understand this change in his behavior.

 

[TheExecuter]

“How could they, Dickon?” Salisbury leaned in, “You ask of them a thing...you ask of me...to ignore a thing to which we have given oath!”

The moment King Henry attainted you, Salisbury...your oath NO LONGER MATTERS.

“I would support your cause, brother...” the Earl replied, “...yet not the manner in which you go about it. We desire to live in a peaceable kingdom, my Lord. This is not that. And from your efforts, I am unsure that your remedy is anything better than what has already come. You throw us all into disrepair, sir. If we are to heal this world...then I fear that these efforts are none but harm.”

You desire to live, Salisbury? By your very words you desire to die. Your remedy is to invite the Queen to return, who will again declare you a traitor and kill you.

My God what insanity is this argument?

“Dickon! Take a victory! Please God, man!!”

BECAUSE IT IS A LOSS, you doddering old fool!

Richard looked to the flames, “They have made promises to this Prince.”

Indeed, a very good point.

If Salisbury is so willing to go against oaths to the crown prince...how can he hold to upholding his oath to the King? The very King that tried to kill him?

This is completely illogical and insane.

The fact that this is what actually happened makes me believe in fetal alcohol syndrome heavily affecting these 'Lords' and confirms me in my staunch Republicanism.

NONE of these fools is worthy to govern, for if Richard of York is swayed by this insanely easy to dispute argument...he is almost as much a fool as Henry VI.

AGH!

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

One of the big things that held England back for so long in the Middle Ages was the ruling Norman/Plantagenet nobles burning a great deal of the treasure on war in France rather than in the kingdom itself, leading to a notable gap in development and investment before and after the Norman/Plantagenet/'we are the kings of France' period.

When the 100 years war finally stops (wherever you think that ends), both France and England rather rapidly become far wealthier, stronger and more centralised again, and go on to dominate, annex and consume all their close neighbours to form their 'natural' nation state borders that they then held for much of the rest of their history.

In this timeline, whilst England is 'stronger' in that the government and Crown is in a much better place than OTL, and they have a vastly better grasp on France, the same issue of feudal nobles acting like feudal nobles and trying to get family lands in France rather than being stuck in England continues. The nobility being large, wealthy, independently militarised and spread out across two different kingdoms isn't great for future prospects. Of course, if somehow the monarchs do conquer most of France and do a deal with the Burgundians who get the rest, and then try to formalise the union...that solves a few problems and makes quite a few more...but it would be interesting.

I have often said that the best thing to happen to England was losing the Hundred Years War. Though it caused them to look inward, ultimately it led to internal development as you mention above but so to their desires to look elsewhere rather than to the continent and France. Arguably, settling in North America and elsewhere was far more productive in the long run. And of course, the WOTR did a fine job of killing off so many of the competing challengers to the crown so the monarchs mostly had a free hand after that (more or less.)

I wasn't thinking about chaning Dick's diet, but in a way to find some use to unsued poles...

We are certainly not done with the "heads on pikes" phase.

This is...a continuity error?

Did not Warwick spend MULTIPLE chapters fighting to kill the queen and place York to the throne?

I don't understand this change in his behavior.

He explains it well enough in the post, but it was not so much that Warwick was against the decision but rather the how of it. Perhaps he was simply shocked at the boldness of Richard after so many years of tepid half measures. He may also have wished to be more the broker in the deal with the other Lords. Warwick always wants to be the most important man in the room.

The fact that this is what actually happened makes me believe in fetal alcohol syndrome heavily affecting these 'Lords' and confirms me in my staunch Republicanism.

It is what makes this period fascinating to me. None of this had to happen. It could have been avoided. And yet...here we are.


To all - Continued thanks for following to all! To reward you, I shall release another scene that was written some time ago but moves us forward in the narrative. It also gives a glimpse into the underlying game being played (Yes! I told you this was an actual game!) Enjoy.

 

[coz1]

Calais, September 1466​

Lord Hastings stepped through the mud outside the walls of Calais and smiled with pride. The men of Orleans had fled at the arrival of the English King. The besieging army showed a fighting retreat, but the mass of longbow and horse took hundreds of theirs. Several still wounded at his feet moaned at their misfortune, yet the Baron was more interested in the arrival of the King himself. He did not have to wait long.

Thunderous hooves pounded the ground as the Duke of Norfolk rode into the slight camp and pulled his reins to a quick stop, “By God, Hastings! You do tarry!!”

“If you’d been here sooner, you might have seen the carnage,” Lord Hastings answered with a laugh.

Norfolk dropped from his mount, sinking his boots into the thick mud and looked to his feet, “You’ve made a great mess of it, sir.”

“And you’ve just stepped in shit, my Lord,” Hastings laughed again, “Now...come into the town and gain some warmth.”

“His Grace follows quickly behind,” the Duke gave firm nod, “We shall both be glad of it. Stragglers...the King could not resist.”

Hastings lead the way, “And he is far too old for such maneuvers.”

“Exactly!” Norfolk threw away his damp cloak as they entered the hall, “Reliving old glories, I suppose. Yet we had it well in hand.”

“An old dog will bark,” Hastings suggested as he held out a cup of wine, “Now drink of this and hear some other news, for I do hold some.”

Mowbray showed a concerned eye, “Should we not wait for the King?”

“I think not that he may wish to hear some of which I needs must say.”

“As bad as that?” Norfolk raised a brow.

Hastings poured his own wine as he explained, “The Nevilles do talk. I hear word from my new Lady wife Katharine.”

“Ah yes...Warwick’s sister,” the Duke grinned, “A fine catch for a widow.”

“Indeed...and her daughter should be a fine catch as well,” the Baron turned with a wry smile, “Though only six in age, she is heir the estates of Bonville and Harrington.”

“Our war did create some...opportunities, yes?” Norfolk laughed, “Yet tell me...what is so terrible about all of that?”

Lord Hastings move to press his boot into the fire, “As I say...these Neville sisters will talk. And about their brother.”

“It is always useful to have a gaggle of hens.”

“And they do lay so many eggs,” Hastings laughed, “At this time, one is to be hatched once again.”

Norfolk found a tattered chair and sat with curiosity, “A double birth, you say?”

“Like the triple or fourth time,” the Baron turned with some concern, “I am told that naught but two months past, our Lord Prince George, the dear Duke of Clarence was given great entertainment to Warwick Castle. A fortnight of fun was to be had, it is said.”

The Duke shrugged it off, “So...let George have some fun! The Earl is wealthy and can entertain with the best of us. And...it is off the royal lists as well. Progress always pays.”

“Indeed one must pay to play,” Hastings took the opposite seat with a serious eye, “Our Lord of Warwick is not a man to sit idle. I know him well. It has been his interest for some time to see his daughter paired with a Prince of this King and he has his eyes set upon George.”

“Why should he care?” Norfolk questioned, “He has more coin than the King himself.”

“My Lord...” the Baron suggested strongly, “...you are of the blood royal. That be no question. Though Warwick is as well, his blood is tainted. It is Beaufort blood. He shall forever be an outsider unless he might join with the legitimate line. It is a way for these powerful families to maintain that power. And what do you think they should do with that power?”

The young Duke considered his father for a time and then gave nod, “There are some Princes that may simply wish to live the goodly life and take what joy there is within. There are others...mayhap like our Warwick...for which the enemy of good is great. And the previous Duke of Norfolk knew...this Neville fellow wishes to be a Great man.”

“Most well said, my Lord,” Hastings finished his wine and leaned forward, “Now...what to do about it?”

“I should leave it with you, sir,” Norfolk showed a happy face and stood, “For the King shall arrive in but a moment and I agree...we should not speak of this.”

“Speak of what?!” Richard bellowed as he bounded into the hall, “What news for your King?”

Without skipping a beat, Lord Hasting turned with a furrowed brow, “It is sad news, Your Grace. I am afraid that I have been told of the death of King Charles of Orleans.”

“Truly is it sad?” Richard questioned as he moved to the fire and began to warm his hands, “The old bastard was seventy...something. Who may know? He was de Valois and got us into this mess. Is that not always the case?”

Norfolk joined the King by the fire with humor, “Not to quibble with Your Grace, yet I do believe it was your son in law Henri to Champagne that begat this mess. And we shall clean it up in good time.”

“Mowbray me boy,” Richard held an arm over his shoulders, “You do cheer me up. Yet do not let it go to your head.”

“Of course not,” the Duke winked.

Lord Hastings followed, “Though it does not end the action, Your Grace. For this Charles so called King does have a youthful son. Mayhap too youthful at that for he is naught but four in age. Name of Louis.”

“How creative,” Richard shrugged and moved to pour himself some wine.

Norfolk laughed, “My God...if he was such an old codger, how did he do it??”

“His youthful bride,” the King mused, “Given to him by that son of a...Burgundy. Always bloody Burgundy.”

“Yet they are no part of this,” the Duke suggested.

“They are always part of this...” Hastings allowed, “...is that not right, Your Grace? At every step, King Charles...”

“Duke Charles!” Richard pressed strongly, “He is no King.”

“King or no...” the Baron continued, “...he does remain with a daughter alone and thus, quite eligible. It is said that this Mary is like to be nine in age quite soon. I imagine that every Prince to Europe would like to wed and bed her, Your Grace.”

Richard did not wish to hear it and found a chair by the fire, “They must needs find issue for it to matter. Have we not just had a wedding? Do you see any issue from that?”

“Give it time, Your Grace,” Norfolk answered with a smile.

The King did not return it when he looked to the Baron, “Where is my son in law at the now?”

“At last sighting, he was to the south with his other allies,” Hastings answered, “Orleans itself is invested. Armagnac has taken Blois. It is fairly well over, yet this new Regent to Orleans is not yet spent.”

King Richard looked to them both, “Then they shall be in short order.”

“Yet the larger point, Your Grace?” Lord Hastings questioned.

“What IS the larger point?!” Richard shouted, “Defeat the enemy and win the war!”

The Duke of Norfolk showed a slight bow, “I do believe that our Lord Hastings may have an idea, Your Grace. Should you wish to hear him.”

Annoyed, Richard stood with his back to them and warmed his hands once more. After a moment, he finally answered, “Then speak it.”

“If we may return to the lands of Burgundy for but a time...” Hastings tried to delicately reply, “...it has been the hope of the Earl of Warwick…”

Richard turned with a sharp glare but Hastings powered through, “...has held desire to forge a partnership with this Charles such that he may stay away from our adventures to here. As I know that you have met with him and he surely sees you as more formidable now...would it not be in our interest to attempt such a thing?”

“What thing would you suggest?” the King asked with disdain.

Hastings remained careful, “Lord Warwick has always thought that a pairing of one of your sons to this Mary might be a wonderful tonic to the relationship.”

The King narrowed his brow, “Which...son?”

“Either may do, for they are both accomplished,” Lord Hastings replied, “Yet I think...mayhap...George? He is second in line and this may impress the man from Burgundy.”

Richard nearly spit as he considered it, “The man wanted one of mine for himself some years ago. I believe that I should rather die than allow him to match with our house and I shall tell you why. He feels that he holds as much right to the crown of France as do I. He would be wrong, but his ambition is right there. I should never...ever...give him that desire fulfilled.”

“Yet Your Grace...” the Duke of Norfolk held a thought, “...if he should die with no other male issue...then these lands of Burgundy would...”

“Fall into whatever hands his daughter has married,” Hastings finished the thought.

The King was silent at the thought and stood to warm himself. He paced as was his want and finally poured another wine. As he finished it, he placed the cup aside and looked to them both with uncertainty, “Georgie?”

“The Duke of Clarence and a Prince of England, sire,” Norfolk suggested, “A fine get for a man that wishes to be a King.”

Richard mulled it over and then questioned, “Why not Dickon? He’s a strong head on his gangling shoulders and surely no great harm in the after.”

“Then mayhap Prince Richard,” Hastings allowed, “It was just a thought, Your Grace.”

“Hmm,” the King answered, “I shall have to speak with their mother first.”

Norfolk tried to brighten the mood, “Yet for the now, my Lord King...should we not go to see the end of this Régence d'Orleans and please your daughter and her husband of Champagne?”

“You’ve the right of it there, Mowbray me boy,” Richard showed a slim smile, “For we shall sit these Lords down and show them...a peace.”

 

[TheExecuter]

With that, he reached for a quill and dipped it to ink. Then he scribbled his mark to the page as simply Henry. With almost a sigh of relief he looked up, “We must needs the seal, my Lord Bishop. Please send for the Bishop of Exeter. We shall write our wife the Queen and tell her that she must bring our son to us in all haste. We shall warn her that if she fails to do so, she will be denounced as a traitor.”

“Are you certain, Your Grace?” the Bishop questioned strongly.

Henry stood taller and looked to him with a weak eye, “We are still King, sir. And those are our words.”

Henry actually having the balls to do the right thing and create a situation where his wife and son can be killed for the good of the realm?

Truly, within the heart of every man there is darkness and courage.

“Your Grace, I say again...” Northumberland remained calm, “...we hold already near to ten thousand soldiers. That is no small thing, especially at this time of year when the campaigning season is considered over.”

She shifted back to the fire, “They look to bounty and by God, I shall give it to them. We shall march to York and then on to Pontefract gaining as we go and I shall take great pleasure seeing the tenants of these Lords despoiled! Somerset shall meet us there and then we will march together to London and deliver the King from these enemies!”

Lord Clifford seemed to enjoy the thought as he offered, “York will respond, my Lady.”

“Indeed he shall,” Margaret returned the grin, “And when he does, we shall defeat him with our might and protect my son and his inheritance. This will not stand. I will NOT allow it!”

And THIS is exactly why Salisbury is a fool.

Even while the Lords force York to not take the crown under guise of peace...they muster their forces to rally to the Queen and continue the war.

York and company are just as naive as Henry VI...

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

I have often said that the best thing to happen to England was losing the Hundred Years War. Though it caused them to look inward, ultimately it led to internal development as you mention above but so to their desires to look elsewhere rather than to the continent and France. Arguably, settling in North America and elsewhere was far more productive in the long run. And of course, the WOTR did a fine job of killing off so many of the competing challengers to the crown so the monarchs mostly had a free hand after that (more or less.)

It also destroyed the feudal system as it was, without actually destroying the fundamentals of the kingdom. So the landed elite titles, the rule of law, the justices, the monarchy, parliament etc were all intact, but the former were mostly dead, meaning modernisation and centralisation without much actual reform could occur. Hence why the modern UK is very, very similar in makeup to this period in terms of fundamentals...it's just that the landowners and hereditary nobles had their independent powers removed and placed into the other branches of the realm, mostly Parliament and the Monarchy, which then became increasingly intertwined

 

[Rensslaer]

I still like Richard for the most part. Yes, he can be dumb and stubborn. But he's always had righteous indignation and the will to carry it through. More will in the latter parts of the story than before. Let's say conviction first, followed by will.

But he does have some terrible handicaps also. He's not very smart, I think sometimes. He lets determination and conviction of righteousness make up for it

He's also slow to take good counsel, and often refuses good counsel because he feels like he doesn't need advice.

It's sad that Warwick doesn't ever have his suggestions listened to until and unless he convinces others to counsel the king for him.

Has Warwick, I wonder, already messed up the things with Georgie? Or maybe this is all his plan.

Great stuff @coz1 !

Rensslaer

 

[TheExecuter]

The Duke of York looked to his son with a kindness, “I have never found it to be in my lifetime, sir. Yet when I spy your face again...I shall tell you anything you may wish to know. And it will all of it be true.”

Wait...does this mean York's oldest son is not his own?

 

[Rensslaer]

Wait...does this mean York's oldest son is not his own?

@TheExecuter There were rumors. And you'll see those come up. @coz1 does a good job with this.

Renss

 

[TheExecuter]

He did not have chance to continue. Somerset’s sharp blade cleanly cut off Richard Neville’s head soon to sit atop the gates of York as warning. Grotesque, covered in pitch to preserve for as long as possible and joined by that of his son Thomas. It was victory for the Lancastrian cause. A victory in battle. Yet the war raged on.

Told you so, Salisbury, you old fool.

Once again, I first conceived this idea in 2007 and I've been thinking about it ever since. And it is rather funny to me that I think "rushed" is an appropriate phrase considering that this AAR is really quite long. In my document, this scene lands somewhere in the 700s of pages (and I am about to hit 1000 pages in total.) But I needed all of that to get to here. I did. Maybe you did not. I'll leave that to the reader.

I perfectly understand how you feel.

Though in my case, the readers aim was reversed...in that they liked the initial direction of the story and have lost interest now that it's fully into the love story aspects.

Ah well, tell the story you want to tell and enjoy...right?

 

[TheExecuter]

“He looks wan,” Margaret Beaufort suggested to her husband, “I know not how he has survived.”

Both York's find succor with Margaret Beaufort?

My God the possibilities of what could happen here are...way too much for just a casual reading...

Lady Margaret smiled at him, “You are funny, my Lord Edmund.”

“I see not what is at all funny about this,” Edmund held again to the Duke, “My father is in peril and so too is the kingdom!”

She moved to him and rested a slim hand to his shoulder, “I think you to be well, sir. God Almighty does provide.”

You could take her words for any number of meanings...from flirting and hinting at future relationships...to laughing at the naivety of the York's...

Seriously, Richard of York completely in the power of the Tudors is not necessarily a good thing for his survival...

Warwick drank down his wine and poured another as he answered, “Ned will...prosper.”

Warwick understands that Ned may be happy his father is dead...the Kingmaker showing off his skills...

 

[TheExecuter]

Through constricted breathe, Exeter tried to answer as he attempted to fight the Duke’s hold, “For...your...daughter...sir...”

YES!

“He was a traitor!”

He was indeed.

For all of Margaret of Anjou's faults...she at least understands reality.

Margaret eyed him for a time before she answered the Duke with a hardened eye, “We end...when I say we end. As I am Queen...that should be all that is desired.”

“Salisbury, madam...his son!” Somerset stood forward, “My father! How many more?”

“Dress yourself!” she turned from him to wash her body, “You hold leagues to go.”

Somerset not understanding that Margaret wants to rule...is just delicious.

No, Dukes are not going to be power brokers in the new England...no matter which side wins...

The King gave nod to it all.

After all, the ship of decisive leadership had long ago sailed from Henry VI's shores. Even were he to try to act decisively now...he would not be heeded. Passive abdication is just as effective as active abdication.

 

[TheExecuter]

“And when you face him...” Warwick questioned, “...you will be true?”

Edward smiled to him, “Do not doubt me, cousin. All men do at their peril.”

It is not Edward being doubted that strikes me as the worry...

Yet what he most lost that day was his dignity. Slowly and slyly, Edward of York had eclipsed him. If Richard Neville was to be a kingmaker, he would have to do better. A lot better.

Would be an issue...but...

Edward of York stood there...tall and reigning over the field. Shocked even. His eyes were wide as he lost all consciousness. As he fell over into the mass of bodies, Somerset yelled out, “No!!!!!”

Oof.

Poor Somerset. Only learns the truth about who he cares about most at the moment he can do nothing to change his fate.