The Wars of the Roses

[El Pip]

For a brief moment I hoped that York would accept these terms and we would see the War of the Roses become a court room battle, Somerset brought before his peers and tried in the High Court of Parliament. The actual trial merely a proxy for a battle twixt Yorkist and the Court faction, with denunciations, legal trickery, stunning speeches and cunning cross-examinations producing devastating confessions. Margaret dragged to the stand and needled into confessing her treasonous harlotry and hatred of England. York unravelling on the stand as the pressure became too much.

But alas I realised that while I am a massive fan of AARs that utterly subvert expectations and pull the rug out of readers just before the big war, I am probably in a minority and so likely York will just reject this for some weak reason (probably around not dispersing his army till Somerset is arrested or similar) and it shall be actual fighting war. But the Legal War of the Roses shall remain with me as a marvellous idea that was too beautiful for this harsh and uncaring world.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

For a brief moment I hoped that York would accept these terms and we would see the War of the Roses become a court room battle, Somerset brought before his peers and tried in the High Court of Parliament. The actual trial merely a proxy for a battle twixt Yorkist and the Court faction, with denunciations, legal trickery, stunning speeches and cunning cross-examinations producing devastating confessions. Margaret dragged to the stand and needled into confessing her treasonous harlotry and hatred of England. York unravelling on the stand as the pressure became too much.

But alas I realised that while I am a massive fan of AARs that utterly subvert expectations and pull the rug out of readers just before the big war, I am probably in a minority and so likely York will just reject this for some weak reason (probably around not dispersing his army till Somerset is arrested or similar) and it shall be actual fighting war. But the Legal War of the Roses shall remain with me as a marvellous idea that was too beautiful for this harsh and uncaring world.

Since this is (mostly) set dressing because EUIV doesn't do characters very much at all, I suppose it could have ended like that.

And I probably would have enjoyed that more too...could still happen (indeed, must happen at some point because the spouse and succession must be sorted out and it's still a different system every time in this period).

A battle of some kind phsycially is likely to happen at some point regardless. The nobility have just a little too much puff and will want to use it before they lose it.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Of course, were I to be in this position, I would of course agree, blame York when Somerset is inestimable found guilty, executed and has his lands confiscated by the crown, and subsequently do unto him what he did to his enemy.

Thus, two heads, two duchies and a lot more wealth and stability for the Crown.

Henry...is going to be brought low by the Queen for his actions, lose some support from the southern Lords, lose Somerset, gain York in his court again...for whatever that will do.

I feel a battle in his case (since he obviously does not want to choose) would actually be better. At least he will either kill York or be killed, ending the issue.

Your first course would be most successful for the game, to be sure. Your second is likely more accurate in the world we inhabit. Your third? At this time, when one sword drops another will soon pick it up.

For a brief moment I hoped that York would accept these terms and we would see the War of the Roses become a court room battle, Somerset brought before his peers and tried in the High Court of Parliament. The actual trial merely a proxy for a battle twixt Yorkist and the Court faction, with denunciations, legal trickery, stunning speeches and cunning cross-examinations producing devastating confessions. Margaret dragged to the stand and needled into confessing her treasonous harlotry and hatred of England. York unravelling on the stand as the pressure became too much.

But alas I realised that while I am a massive fan of AARs that utterly subvert expectations and pull the rug out of readers just before the big war, I am probably in a minority and so likely York will just reject this for some weak reason (probably around not dispersing his army till Somerset is arrested or similar) and it shall be actual fighting war. But the Legal War of the Roses shall remain with me as a marvellous idea that was too beautiful for this harsh and uncaring world.

Ha! That's great! I confess that I do not now nor will I ever know enough about medieval English law to make that particular story work, but I will not hold another from writing it. It would turn the thing on its head as a WOTR story, no doubt!

As for the other, stay tuned. What happens next is spectacular (at least in my mind) and I hope it plays as such. Not groundbreaking but fun!

Since this is (mostly) set dressing because EUIV doesn't do characters very much at all, I suppose it could have ended like that.

And I probably would have enjoyed that more too...could still happen (indeed, must happen at some point because the spouse and succession must be sorted out and it's still a different system every time in this period).

A battle of some kind phsycially is likely to happen at some point regardless. The nobility have just a little too much puff and will want to use it before they lose it.

EUIV is the skeleton. The RL history is the tissues and what not to start filling it in. And my interpretations of the characters from history is the "set dressing" indeed.

Your last comment is most apt but I cannot say more at this time.

 

[Midnite Duke]

Why do we have such high leadership/noble deaths compared to common soldiers? Are main forces mere sideshow with major goal capture/death of leaders? Is the major factor small cavalry units that are trying to pluck off the leaders? We need to remember how young Margaret is (15 at marriage) that she is in a foreign nation that is moving from French to English. Margaret is the daughter of a man that is the opposite of York. Her father's titles outweighed his actual power, while Richard is actually stronger than his title.

 

[coz1]

Why do we have such high leadership/noble deaths compared to common soldiers? Are main forces mere sideshow with major goal capture/death of leaders? Is the major factor small cavalry units that are trying to pluck off the leaders? We need to remember how young Margaret is (15 at marriage) that she is in a foreign nation that is moving from French to English. Margaret is the daughter of a man that is the opposite of York. Her father's titles outweighed his actual power, while Richard is actually stronger than his title.

On your question, it has much to do with the fact that there were in fact few actual pitched battles but the ones that did occur were quite deadly to the nobles on both sides. The rivalries that were such a large part of this struggle did indeed mean that the nobles on each side were certainly gunning for each other.

An interesting comparison between Rene d'Anjou and Richard of York. Margaret probably takes a lot of her haughtiness from her father who peacocked around with not much behind it but a name.

 

[Bullfilter]

“Very well. We shall allow for Somerset’s warrant. If that be what it takes to bring our cousin to peace. Yet we maintain once more...he shall have to disband his force in every way. We will not see him while an army stands to the south.”

“It shall be so, Your Grace,” the Bishop of Ely gave nod.

The Bishop of Winchester followed, “I think you hold true to your purpose, Your Grace. You will have averted war and brought us all peace. God is good.”

A seeming peace shall fall to pieces, no doubt. The next to whisper in Henry’s ear will turn his purpose (and it wouldn’t require much of a nudge, either). Or something will go wrong, the cat will eat the homework, etc. There will be sanguinary effusions.

 

[Midnite Duke]

On your question, it has much to do with the fact that there were in fact few actual pitched battles but the ones that did occur were quite deadly to the nobles on both sides. The rivalries that were such a large part of this struggle did indeed mean that the nobles on each side were certainly gunning for each other.

An interesting comparison between Rene d'Anjou and Richard of York. Margaret probably takes a lot of her haughtiness from her father who peacocked around with not much behind it but a name.

Thank You very much. In CK terms, the battles were more between personal retinues than raising the general levies with the nobles standing under personal banners to pinpoint their location for the other side's focused cavalry. In many ways, the major players are not Henry & Richard, but rather Margaret & Cecily. Richard may not be able to win without Cecily's family and Cecily may be even more ambitious than Richard (Edward IV had to build new quarters for his wife as the Queen-Mother was living in the Queen's quarters).

Margaret reminds me somewhat of Eleanor of Aquitaine. Bright, beautiful, French married to English king. But the differences are major. Eleanor was a 30ish woman who had done marriage/motherhood while Margaret was a teen at marriage. Eleanor came into a strong kingdom while the nobles were ruling Henry and England. Eleanor was French in a French-speaking court that was winning against France, Margaret was French in an English-speaking court that was suffering reversals.

A better choice for a Henry wife would have been to ally him with one of the English lords rather than a French peacock with only a title. Even Denmark or the Iberian Peninsula would have been better than France. But the lords wanted to control Henry and got much more than they wanted in Margaret.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

A seeming peace shall fall to pieces, no doubt. The next to whisper in Henry’s ear will turn his purpose (and it wouldn’t require much of a nudge, either). Or something will go wrong, the cat will eat the homework, etc. There will be sanguinary effusions.

I like "the cat will eat the homework" as explanation. It plays into the unofficial title of this work: Those Darn Beauforts which of course is a play on words from the 1965 film That Darn Cat!

Thank You very much. In CK terms, the battles were more between personal retinues than raising the general levies with the nobles standing under personal banners to pinpoint their location for the other side's focused cavalry. In many ways, the major players are not Henry & Richard, but rather Margaret & Cecily. Richard may not be able to win without Cecily's family and Cecily may be even more ambitious than Richard (Edward IV had to build new quarters for his wife as the Queen-Mother was living in the Queen's quarters).

Margaret reminds me somewhat of Eleanor of Aquitaine. Bright, beautiful, French married to English king. But the differences are major. Eleanor was a 30ish woman who had done marriage/motherhood while Margaret was a teen at marriage. Eleanor came into a strong kingdom while the nobles were ruling Henry and England. Eleanor was French in a French-speaking court that was winning against France, Margaret was French in an English-speaking court that was suffering reversals.

A better choice for a Henry wife would have been to ally him with one of the English lords rather than a French peacock with only a title. Even Denmark or the Iberian Peninsula would have been better than France. But the lords wanted to control Henry and got much more than they wanted in Margaret.

As regards Eleanor, recall too that she also brought with her a rather strong "kingdom" as well in Aquitaine. As you state, she was already practiced at ruling where Margaret is certainly not. And I cannot argue with your point on Cecily. Both her ambition and the fact that her family forms much of Richard's strength which is likely why this recent gambit has gone rather wrong for York despite what it seemed early on.


To all - Excellent comments by all and I thank you as always. The next scene arrives in mere moments. Give me a moment for one last pass over and it will be out..

 

[coz1]

Blackheath, May 1452​

She woke with a fright. In her dream she had seen herself led to some place that she did not know. Dark shadows were all around her and yet she reached...for something...for someone...and she called out. And yet no one could hear her cry. That longing did not leave her as she caught her breath and tried to find a calm. Sitting up to bed, she looked to her wardrobe still packed from the night before. A hasty progress but she did not mind. She was ever closer to her beloved palace of Greenwich and every step was more comfortable than the field bed she’d found for these last many days.

Queen Margaret finally pulled her feet over and lifted from the feather down mattress that had seen better in a prior life. She moved to a water bowl and splashed her face and wiped to her body to clean. Where were her ladies in waiting now, she wondered? In softer beds with softer men. She laughed to herself as she considered it. They were not made of sterner stuff. Only she.

Sitting to a table fitted with a mirrored glass, Margaret tried to find the lines to her face. Surely they must be there. She was still quite young. Naught but twenty and two. Yet she already felt a lifetime behind her lived as if in another world. She could hardly recall her marriage...either time. The first in France with Suffolk standing in Henry’s stead. And then to Westminster and the real thing. Was there much of a wedding night? She could not remember. As she plied to her face and looked to the dark spots forming beneath her eyes, she sighed. Was this worth it...to be Queen?

As she moved to dress, a commotion could be heard outside of her tent. At first she paid it no mind but then she heard shouting. Pulling a robe around her, she exited her tent only to find the Duke of Somerset surrounded by guards. Margaret made ready action and ran to them, “Where do you go?!”

“My Lady Queen, we are on orders of His Grace the King,” one of the guards answered as he kept Somerset marching.

Somerset himself looked back to her with pleading eyes, “I am arrested! York has found his victory!”

“You will stop!” Margaret announced, “All of you!!”

Not wishing to incur her wrath, the guards did as demanded but looked to her with question. Another spoke out, “My Lady Queen...the Lord is directed to his place and we only follow the order.”

“What order?!” she questioned as her spirit raised, “Our Lord of Somerset has done no thing wrong! I cannot believe it! Who gives you this order for it surely is not the King?!”

The first soldier offered a bow, “It is, my Lady Queen. From his very own word. I apologize for offense.”

“You offend me by speaking!” Margaret said to him and then pulled the chained Somerset to her, “You will take this man no place but where I desire and I will take him to the King myself!”

In the face of her anger, they could say little but followed as she dragged Somerset behind her to the King’s tent. Before entering she turned to them again with a fury, “You will undo these chains and at the now! He will not stand before the King as prisoner!”

Once more they dutifully answered her demand, but looked on with worry. Somerset merely smiled as he leaned in, “Ever the savior, my Lady.”

“We are not done yet!” she answered with force, “We shall find out what happens here!”

Exploding into the King’s tent, Margaret made herself known to a sleeping husband, “At your rest, you allow too much, sir!! What is the meaning of this and why have you shackled this man?!!”

King Henry raised slightly in the bed and rubbed at an eye, “What is all this?”

“That is what I would like to know!” Margaret expressed with extreme anger, “What cause could you have for placing this Lord in such peril?!”

The King looked at her for a time without answer. His squire moved to help him with a robe and when he finally stood tall he went to her, “I make peace.”

“You have made no peace with me, my Lord!” she exclaimed, “I am told one thing and then see another. We remove ourselves to this place for I thought us out of danger, but now I see that you have offered a sacrificial lamb?!”

Seeing the guards behind her, Henry stiffened, “We wait for our cousin. There are to be talks. We would hear him.”

“And at such cost?!” Margaret was having none of it as she pointed to Somerset, “You would abandon that which makes you sound?!”

Waving his guards out of the tent, Henry stood strong to his wife, “I would like to get dressed. If you may allow. Those men...now outside...will see you to my headquarter. We think to spy York upon the hour, madam. If you wish to be there, I should have no quarrel.”

“My Lord King...Your Grace...” Somerset offered his plea, “...I know not what has carried your disfavor but I would make it right.”

Henry squinted his eyes in irritation, “Meet my guards or I shall have to call them back. I will see to the both of you in a moment.”

Those guards that had not yet left the tent stood close and Margaret took her notice. Once more taking Somerset by the arm, she trudged through the mud to the main field tent and stood there fuming. Somerset himself was nervous and finally leaned in to her, “I would take a care how you speak to His Grace.”

Margaret looked to him with wide eyes, “I am here to save you and you would tell me how to do? Silence yourself, sir, if you wish to live!”

Some moments later, King Henry entered the tent followed by several magnates including Buckingham, Salisbury, Warwick and the Lord Chancellor Cardinal Kempe. Impeccably dressed, he reached his chair and sat with calm. The others surrounded him but that did not deter the Queen.

“Why have you arrested this man?!” she demanded to know as she pointed to Somerset, “He has done no thing wrong and serves you in every way!”

“It is a price, Your Grace,” Buckingham stated but Henry stood and held up his hand to silence the Duke.

“You may not know what a terror you are, but I will not buckle under your thumb!”

Margaret stepped to him with hurt, “How dare you speak to me in such a way?! What manner of King are you that would treat his wife so poorly and those that serve him worse?!”

“Your mind has been well known for some time,” he spoke back to her, “His as well. And you to he...for ever as that has been going on. You speak too curtly and my mind is upon peace.”

“You wish peace?!” she exclaimed in angered question, “Well you will not have it this day! Nor any day if this be your manner!”

Henry stood taller, “You would silence yourself!”

“I will not!!” Margaret pushed to his body, “I am your wife and I have words! You will hear them!!”

The King’s guards quickly moved to him for protection but another contingent entered the tent. Richard of York bent to move under the flap and then stood as tall as he might followed by the of Earl of Devon, Lord Cobham and the Bishops of Ely and Winchester.

“Your Grace, we have arrived,” the Bishop of Winchester announced.

The King looked at his wife for a moment longer before returning to his chair. He stood in front and waved a hand to them, “Is it not customary to show a bow?”

Richard stood for a second before lowering to a knee and his men followed. The Duke kept his head low as he replied, “The call is answered, Your Grace. I am here with all trust.”

“Is that why it is??!” Margaret could not help herself in question.

Henry turned to her with great anger, “Could you remain silent, woman?!!”

The Duke of York was unsure of the moment, “Your Grace...if this is a poor time...I could return...”

“It has taken you too long to be here in the first place, cousin,” Henry turned back to the Duke, “It is long past time for us to have this meet.”

Richard stood tall once more, “I am at your mercy, Your Grace. You must know that I meant you no displeasure. I merely held strong wish for your person and was forced to show my love.”

The King looked to his wife first before turning back to York, “You hold a most peculiar way of showing it, sir.”

“THAT can be no doubt!” Margaret nearly spit.

Henry turned to her again, “If you will not shut your mouth, I will run you from this tent in all haste!”

“Your Grace...” the Duke of York offered slowly, “...if you would...might we manage our terms? I am most surprised to find the Lord of Somerset here. I dispersed those men around for that very reason. That was agreed.”

“He is under our care,” Henry turned to his cousin, “He is not at liberty as was agreed.”

York questioned with irritation, “You pull your army back to lull me into soft allowance? Only to change terms when it suits you?”

“My Lord,” Salisbury answered him, “All has gone as charged. His Grace has honored his commitment.”

Henry stepped to his cousin, “So now what of you? Shall you honor your own?”

“As I state...the men that serve me have gone to their homes,” Richard looked up to his cousin, “I bring with me naught but forty men and Devon and Cobham as you see before you.”

The King looked them both over with some disdain before looking back to Richard, “You have caused us a great worry, sir.”

“That was my intention,” Richard answered without a beat.

Margaret was nonplussed as she rushed to her husband, “That is all that he has ever cared to do! Create chaos and undermine our own! I demand that you hold him to arrest for his crimes!”

Henry shocked everyone to the tent when he forcibly pushed her away to stare deeply into Richard’s eyes, “How may I know that I shall trust you...cousin? You could be quite cruel as a child.”

“I taught you then, Henry,” Richard answered plainly, “My only hope is to teach you now.”

Margaret was not done, “He is too familiar and more! You cannot trust him for he seeks your ruin!!”

The King heard her words and then presented them to Richard, “Does she speak true? Would you have me fall just as you wish for our Lord of Somerset? We have gone round and round on this and I have given you my judgment. Why do you persist?”

“I was told that you would listen,” Richard stood proudly.

Henry held a hand to his wife as she nearly spoke and then moved back to his chair to sit. He turned and then offered a smile, “And so we shall. Say your peace, sir.”

The Duke of York first looked to the Queen with question before taking a knee once more and then lifted his face to Henry, “Your Grace...we both come from more than fine stock. We share what most do not. Yet you sit to that chair and it is yours. I hold no argument to that fact. Yet you do know that what we share gives me insight into what so many others do not hold. I need not mention names but the one handled here, yet I am particularly practiced for the role that I should have.”

“You wish Council,” Henry gave quick nod having heard this many times before.

Richard slowly stood, “It is not just Council, Your Grace. I have served you well in all ways. To Normandy. To Ireland. To anything that you ask of me. And yet...you rarely ask and when done, rarely thanked.”

“You feel...unappreciated?” Henry questioned, “That is why you have raised over twenty thousand men to the south of London? Is that it?”

“It is not that you under appreciate myself, Your Grace,” Richard replied, “It is that you over appreciate those that have done far less and without such pedigree.”

“It is the same song, Your Grace!” Somerset shouted.

Henry looked to him with fierce eyes, “Your ice is thin, sir! Hold your tongue!”

“I did not mean to interrupt,” Richard offered, “Should you wish to handle this to your own, I am ready to return.”

The King held out his arms, “I think not. We should all be here. Now...speak your terms.”

“He is one of them,” Richard looked directly to Somerset, “He can no longer hold his position.”

Henry gave nod, “That I understand. Yet he will face his charge when he comes to trial. Until then...he is a free man under my protection.”

“That is not what we bargained!” Richard held fast.

Margaret spit at him, “Then do not bargain with a King. I have found it wanting!”

“He will be judged, cousin,” Henry waved a hand to his wife, “Do go on.”

The Duke of York looked from King to Queen and then back again, “You have no doubt read the rest of my words. They hold true. Tis the reason for this venture. And I am an honest man.”

“You are honest in your thoughts, cousin,” Henry skewed a brow, “Yet we know not that you are honest in your actions. We think to see you stay a short while to find out.”

Richard returned the curious gaze, “Have I been fooled, cousin?”

“We know not why you would think so,” Henry answered him, “We wish to hold you close to us for a time. Would it be too much to ask for you to make progress back to London and swear your allegiance at St. Paul’s Cathedral?”

“That is why I am here at the now,” York answered.

“Very well...” Henry waved a hand, “...then do so.”

Richard of York looked to Henry with a sharp eye before finding his knee once more and bowed his head, “I pledge my fealty, my Lord. I am the humble servant to Your Grace and give to you my all and in every way. What you ask of me shall be done and my sword is yours. As it has ever been and in all ways.”

“That is good,” Henry called out with some pleasure, “Now...we think you to do it again when we reach St. Paul’s. You don’t mind...do you?”

“It is my greatest wish,” Richard answered as he looked to the Queen.

She, in turn, kept her eyes to her husband. Their fight was not over. But Henry did not care at the moment. He stood and gave nod before leaving the tent. Yet before he exited, Richard called over his shoulder, “This Lord, Your Grace. What of him?”

“This one?” Henry turned and pointed to Somerset, “We told you. He shall be judged. The other, sir? The other is to keep in mind. The only Lord that matters. It is to Him that we find salvation.”

As the King moved from the tent, the other magnates followed and the guards pulled Somerset with them to keep in Henry’s personal custody. It left Richard and Margaret alone. She stood still fuming and he looked to her without much care.

“I think not that you got the peace that you wished,” she suggested with spite.

He allowed her a nod, “You said yourself...never trust a King.”

“He will free Somerset should I have my way,” Margaret replied with anger.

“I hold little doubt of that, madam,” Richard of York stepped to her, “That must be due to you, to be certain. Yet why do you hate me so much? Do you not see that I care for your husband the King?”

Margaret stepped back, “You show very little in your caring and you linger over me, sir!”

“You should not fear me,” Richard stayed where he was with a gentle grin, “You are royalty. Somerset is not.”

“I do not trust you for I think you to want more!” she sneered.

Richard did not rise to her bait, “I wish what is best for the King. Do you not?”

“I think you to be evil, my Lord of York!” Margaret nearly spit.

He merely looked to her with as best a kind eye that he could manage, “Did I not treat you well when we first met, my Lady? It was my honor to escort you.”

“And you have done no thing since but to hound mine...at every step!”

Richard took her hand, “Then perhaps you have found poor choice in yours, my Lady. You are given great chance as Queen of this realm. Our King requires it.”

“Do not touch me!” she pulled her hand away and moved to exit the tent, “And do not present yourself knowing best for our King. My husband. Your victory here is Pyrrhic. If it is victory at all. It will not last!”

“Few things last, madam!” Richard shouted behind her as she left, “Not forever!”

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Why do we have such high leadership/noble deaths compared to common soldiers? Are main forces mere sideshow with major goal capture/death of leaders? Is the major factor small cavalry units that are trying to pluck off the leaders? We need to remember how young Margaret is (15 at marriage) that she is in a foreign nation that is moving from French to English. Margaret is the daughter of a man that is the opposite of York. Her father's titles outweighed his actual power, while Richard is actually stronger than his title.

The calculus of war changed. Aside from it being a civil war, and a rather unofficial one because both sides were the same family and wanted to change little but put their own candidate on the throne. Given the nature of warfare of the period meant that (barring circumstances such as Angincourt) armored and mounted knights ruled the battlefield, which meant nobility, the rate of injured, killed or captured nobles per battle was rather high to begin with...and of course, with a war that occurs because too many nobles have a right to the throne, killing and imprisoning nobles is suddenly a much better option than letting them be ransomed or live.

This was the period in which the English (and the Swiss) really got into pikes and billhooks too, and thus horsemen of all kinds got murdered in the hundreds by peasants who frankly did not give a toss about sparing the upper classes (nor did their weapons really allow such finise). The rate of death in battle for nobility of all ranks increased quite a bit over the period of the 100 years war and after (including various kings of Scotland and England), until knights adapted into light cavalry.

 

[Midnite Duke]

That may be the bravest, strongest King Henry VI ever written. Does anyone know how well Henry was trained to be king? The throne was placed on his head before his first birthday. The English lords in the 15th century may be at the pinnacle of their strength and reluctant to share with a king. Somerset is a mere side show for Richard/Cecily, the major goal is to prevent Henry producing a legitimate heir. Yorkist propaganda will portray Margaret as a harlot regardless of whether she is nun-like or a jezebel.
Another factor in high noble deaths is that this a claimant war and a dead claimant no longer presses his claim.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

The calculus of war changed. Aside from it being a civil war, and a rather unofficial one because both sides were the same family and wanted to change little but put their own candidate on the throne. Given the nature of warfare of the period meant that (barring circumstances such as Angincourt) armored and mounted knights ruled the battlefield, which meant nobility, the rate of injured, killed or captured nobles per battle was rather high to begin with...and of course, with a war that occurs because too many nobles have a right to the throne, killing and imprisoning nobles is suddenly a much better option than letting them be ransomed or live.

This. Quite correct.

That may be the bravest, strongest King Henry VI ever written. Does anyone know how well Henry was trained to be king? The throne was placed on his head before his first birthday. The English lords in the 15th century may be at the pinnacle of their strength and reluctant to share with a king. Somerset is a mere side show for Richard/Cecily, the major goal is to prevent Henry producing a legitimate heir. Yorkist propaganda will portray Margaret as a harlot regardless of whether she is nun-like or a jezebel.
Another factor in high noble deaths is that this a claimant war and a dead claimant no longer presses his claim.

The spirit is quite strong in Henry, or so he believes. While it may be easy to believe that Henry is/was easily persuadable (and he was) it is difficult to believe that he just merely sat back and watched during this period. As mentioned, I feel that he must have some type of urgency as a character and the above scene is based on RL in that when Richard came to swear allegiance, he quite literally walked in on a fight between King and Queen and then joined in.

As to Henry's raising, I think early on there were good people (for the most part) around him. Henry V's brothers acted as co-regents (Bedford in France and Gloucester in England) while the child was tutored by Richard Beauchamp who was the then Earl of Warwick (his daughters would go on to marry Edmund Beaufort and the younger Richard Neville which is how Neville gains his current title as Earl of Warwick.) All were very loyal to Henry V and so I believe they were honest (again...for the most part) counselors. However, once Cardinal Beaufort (was then just a Bishop) and others starting enjoying the spoils from a child King it was difficult to let that go as Henry got older. Plus Bedford, and Beauchamp had died and as we see from the start here, Gloucester was "forcibly removed."

Finally, your last point is true but really the most ruthless of all was Henry VII in RL. Anyone with a whiff of claim was basically hunted down and imprisoned or killed.


To all - As always thank you for reading and giving comment. Look for the continuation tomorrow.

 

[Midnite Duke]

Richard III trumps Henry VII. Princes in Tower and Henry was hunted in Brittany. Henry was acting in self-defense and Richard in greed. Though Henry VII being last man standing does give him a claim on being the supreme baddy! Thanks for the insights

 

[coz1]

Richard III trumps Henry VII. Princes in Tower and Henry was hunted in Brittany. Henry was acting in self-defense and Richard in greed. Though Henry VII being last man standing does give him a claim on being the supreme baddy! Thanks for the insights

I shall brook no criticism of Richard III, sirrah! My view of him is quite different than what is considered the historical record. Those princes are still sunning themselves on the beaches of Miami at this point. I have some idea about how to handle him/that when/if we get there, but we're not there yet.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Finally, your last point is true but really the most ruthless of all was Henry VII in RL. Anyone with a whiff of claim was basically hunted down and imprisoned or killed.

Only way to handle it really, or do what his son did and properly enshrine in law who and how the inheritance was to be decided (direct sons, direct daughters, etc etc). Issue with that, as he knew, was this was essentially ceding the issue to Parliament, which they then used as part of the foundation for getting rid of the one king, and then the monarchy entirely, and then putting it back, but with them deciding succession (and general control) permanently.

Henry 7th couldn't do that, even if he wanted to, because parliament was full of people with claims to the throne...which brings us right back to the only other option. Someone, at some point, would have had to do it (or do some real Hapsburg levels of marriages and breeding to slash the claims down to as few as possible).

 

[Historywhiz]

Or you can go full Ottoman caliph/sultan style and have the ruler pick which son he wants to succeed him, and then the son solidifies the position by killing all the other princes of the blood. Problem is that this only really works if your religion allows polygamy.

 

[Bullfilter]

And yet no one could hear her cry.

I had images of Sigourney Weaver when I read this.

Richard took her hand, “Then perhaps you have found poor choice in yours, my Lady.

Well said, sirrah! Zing

“Few things last, madam!” Richard shouted behind her as she left, “Not forever!”

Both true and no doubt sad, however things play out in this ATL.

 

[HistoryDude]

Well, it seems like a war is temporarily averted... or mayhaps finished?

Margaret and Richard are going to be warring over position, though.

And is Margaret having second thoughts?

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Only way to handle it really, or do what his son did and properly enshrine in law who and how the inheritance was to be decided (direct sons, direct daughters, etc etc). Issue with that, as he knew, was this was essentially ceding the issue to Parliament, which they then used as part of the foundation for getting rid of the one king, and then the monarchy entirely, and then putting it back, but with them deciding succession (and general control) permanently.

Henry 7th couldn't do that, even if he wanted to, because parliament was full of people with claims to the throne...which brings us right back to the only other option. Someone, at some point, would have had to do it (or do some real Hapsburg levels of marriages and breeding to slash the claims down to as few as possible).

Or you can go full Ottoman caliph/sultan style and have the ruler pick which son he wants to succeed him, and then the son solidifies the position by killing all the other princes of the blood. Problem is that this only really works if your religion allows polygamy.

At this point, we are still in the land of way too many claimants. It will take a lot of death and killing to wheedle it down which may or may not be about to commence.

I had images of Sigourney Weaver when I read this.

Well said, sirrah! Zing

Both true and no doubt sad, however things play out in this ATL.

I had some fun with Richard in this scene. Especially as it relates to Margaret. It's the first time they have actually seen each other since he escorted to England for her marriage. Things have certainly gone down hill from there.

Well, it seems like a war is temporarily averted... or mayhaps finished?

Margaret and Richard are going to be warring over position, though.

And is Margaret having second thoughts?

The Margaret/Richard dynamic is really just getting started despite how sour it already is. As for her, she is definitely questioning her situation as it is not what she thought it would be. She is growing up and finding out that the world is not all kisses and roses.


To all - More great looks! Thanks so much for reading and commenting. The next scene arrives directly...

 

[coz1]

The road to London, May 1452​

Their mounts kept at a slow gate because neither man pushed them. A long train of soldiers and baggage followed behind but the two that mattered were to the front. Henry felt victorious and Richard less so, but they attempted to go back to a time when both were closer friends.

“You’ve your latest, my Lord,” Henry suggested, “What have you named him?”

York held to the pommel of his saddle, “After myself and my father. Yet another Richard.”

“Much like myself,” Henry showed a laugh, “Are there too many Henrys and Richards?”

Richard of York attempted a smile in return, “There are too many of too many.”

“You’ve a fine brood,” the King gave firm nod, “What is that now? Seven...eight?”

The Duke replied as he listened to the clip clop of his horse, “Seven. And I believe that to be my last. My Celie...she is tired.”

“You are blessed, my Lord.”

“You shall find your own, cousin,” Richard showed sympathy, “Yet it does take time and a willing partner.”

Henry looked to the distance, “She is quite willing, cousin. Yet I know not that I am the partner she desires.”

“I would know nothing of that, sire,” Richard replied as he too looked ahead.

“You have placed your words,” Henry offered a side eye, “You have said your things against her.”

Richard sighed, “It is a distrust. I know not that she has your best interest at heart. She is...too French, sire. Yet she remains your Lady wife.”

“Yes...she does,” Henry considered it as he kept his gaze forward.

“Have you...” Richard used his words carefully, “...found time together, Your Grace?”

Henry looked to him briefly, “As you may imagine, I’ve not had that time. She travels with me, but I find my concerns most pressing.”

“Indeed,” the Duke looked ahead once more, “And...I do apologize.”

The King offered a slight laugh, “I do believe, sir...that may be the first time that you have ever given such.”

“It is not to my nature,” Richard replied looking to the horizon, “Yet I mean my word.”

Henry smiled, “I know that you do. I have missed these times. When we two could be fine companions. It has been too long.”

“Yet I must ask of you...Your Grace,” Richard turned to him with a serious eye, “Am I a prisoner as Somerset?”

The King frowned, “The neither of you are prisoner. Yet you will both face judgment. I think to know your outcome. I am less certain about him.”

“Who is to judge?” Richard questioned.

“For you?” the King looked to him, “Your peers, sir. My word will be most and I think you to be well in the end. Devon and Cobham? I am not so certain.”

Richard reached out a hand, “They were following a lead, sire. It be not their plan.”

“Mayhap so,” Henry held to his saddle, “Yet they will find theirs. You must know that I cannot be fully lenient in the face of this. Or would you counsel otherwise?”

“No,” Richard gave nod, “I would not.”

Henry reached forward to brush at the hair on his courser’s neck, “So there shall be a jury and judgment shall be made. Clean and done.”

“Yet what of Somerset?” Richard pressed, “I did not cross the country to invite this upon myself.”

“That may be questioned,” Henry showed a slim smile, “Yet he will be held accountable. An ecclesiastical court will hear his case. Sins against the church, it would seem. Or at least my Bishops tell me so. We shall see.”

Richard frowned as he looked ahead, “Do you think that your Lady wife the Queen shall agree to such?”

“She need not,” the King answered, “It is not her role.”

“Yet she will squawk,” the Duke replied.

Henry offered a half smile, “She does few things better.”

“Cousin...” Richard reached out again with a hand, “...can you not see so many that try to rule you rather than the right way round? Be it wife or Beaufort...a lackey that merely says to you yes. Who has your better interest at heart?”

“It is a thing to fear, no doubt,” Henry replied, “And I pray upon it nightly.”

Richard showed a serious eye, “Prayers may only get you so far, sire. I know too many who would not care.”

“You lack faith in God, cousin,” Henry replied, “You may say your words but I know not if you hold true belief. We are to be saved...all of us. You included. Which is why you are here to me now rather than some place else.”

The Duke held quiet for a moment before giving answer, “God does forgive, cousin. As do you. For that, I am thankful. Yet there needs must be a change in both laity and clergy. They serve you not well as a poor Christian would not serve God.”

“Think not to know the scriptures, cousin,” Henry smiled to him, “I barely know them myself and I have done some study.”

Richard showed a frown, “I hope not from your uncle the Cardinal.”

“God’s balls, sir, I think he did not know them!” Henry made jest and caused Richard to laugh.

“You...have changed,” Richard ceased his rare laughter and clapped his cousin to his back.

Henry smiled once more, “I have grown, sir. I am no longer a child needing to be lead. Though I am appreciative of those that gave me instruction, I must do it on my own now. I am King.”

“You know not how thankful I am to hear such,” Richard flashed another rare smile.

“Cousin...” Henry reached out and held to his arm, “I would wish us to rekindle our favorable state with one another...a time long past but may be again and a time I remember well. No one taught me to catch fish better than you.”

Richard was not certain, “I think you beyond fish, Your Grace.”

“It is cousin...always,” Henry persisted, “You to me and me to you. Do not think it went unnoticed that your demands did not include being named heir. I would do so if I could.”

York began to disagree but stopped himself with simple question, “Why could you not?”

Henry smiled again, “She remains fertile and young. Able. Why make a complication when it does not exist?”

The Duke of York left it to silence as he pushed on his mount. As they approached Southwark, Henry made point, “There is where we stayed when you had gone south, sir. Gave me quite a scare.”

When Richard only gave nod, Henry followed, “We shall cross the bridge and then sleep tightly this night, cousin. A thing done, I believe. All may be forgiven and we should go back to what is good and well. I trust you in this and I know that you will keep us all sound.”

“I will surely keep it sound, Your Grace,” Richard of York answered as they began to cross the London Bridge, “I’ve little choice.”