The Wars of the Roses

[Historywhiz]

Esepcially as the Prince is now old enough to look like his brother or his father.

The problem is that King Henry and Somerset senior were first cousins once removed, so there probably is some physical resemblance between the two that makes Edward’s paternity hard to determine, and that’s before you get into the mess that Margaret is third cousins with King Henry’s mother so a trait that came from her might be attributed as coming from him.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Well...Somerset lies to others as much as to himself. And given he KNOWS that all of those things are lies except perhaps the Prince, he must at least suspect the bustard claim.

Esepcially as the Prince is now old enough to look like his brother or his father.

In all honesty, I'm not entirely sure why Somerset fights for the Queen and Henry so hard. Probably to avoid confronting the fact that the reason why his father is dead is actually because he made the wrong choice and supported a queen that used him until he died then started on his son. And to avoid confronting the fact that he led the army that killed his one true love, and it IS his fault and his sides fault that he's dead.

It would be easy to say...it's complicated. But it is. I have especially enjoyed writing for Henry Beaufort because his "journey" is not an easy one for reasons you've suggested above.

I'm half way through the AAR, @coz1. Man, what a lot of reading. I have a few quick observations. And yes, they are irreverent and light-hearted.



'Stiffened'? Surely there was no double entendre implied, sir!

Every time I see the name Allen Leighson I immediately think of Alex Lifeson. Then picture Leighson on stage shredding Greensleeves on a rebac.

With all of the women sniping each other tooth and nail, I think you should rename the AAR "Real Housewives of London". No, seriously


Now with that out of the way, this is really great work. I'm hoping to catch up in a few more days.

Let us get the two Margarets and Cecily in a room together and see who is left standing. Three women enter...only one leaves.

And I LOVE the idea of RUSH in the middle ages!! They are one of my favorites and while I did not intend Leighson to call that to mind, I have little issue with it. Today's Tom Sawyer...

Well, it looks like Toulouse is not committed to the lost cause that is France. What will they need to pay to make up for sacking Bordeaux if (or when) they deem the war a lost cause?

Honestly, I initially thought that Somerset's paramour referred to Margaret... but it was Ned. TBC is probably right, I think. Or perhaps Somerset thinks that Richard is not respecting his son's memory?

Toulouse doesn't do much, but that they were involved, I felt I needed to include them. And how.

I think TBC is certainly right. There is A LOT in that last scene. Sorry I am a scene behind - I meant to reply a few days ago but now I have the opportunity to consider both at once, where they do play into each other if I'm reading correctly.

This scene first... This de Cornellian (duke? prince of Toulouse??) seems to have Somerset's number. In a number of ways. And if I were losing an effort to convince a man to join an outnumbered cause as an ally I might have avoided pointing out that the Castilians are likely right behind their opponent...

But I gather -- if I'm reading correctly -- that King Richard was overconfident by degrees in blithely waving away concerns about losing Bordeaux?

Still, I don't see how Richard doesn't come back stronger and regain the lost territory, things going as they are.

Somerset would be wise to do as de Cornellian suggests. Sadly, I think he's maybe not so wise as he should be. And like his father far too loyal to the wrong people.

Rensslaer

I am pleased that you see a lot involved because there is. Henry Beaufort is a complicated figure with a lot to work through. As suggested above, he is the cause of his torment and I think he knows it. But will he realize that?

The problem is that King Henry and Somerset senior were first cousins once removed, so there probably is some physical resemblance between the two that makes Edward’s paternity hard to determine, and that’s before you get into the mess that Margaret is third cousins with King Henry’s mother so a trait that came from her might be attributed as coming from him.

Too true. At least they don't have the chin. Just the ears.

 

[El Pip]

“I do have a bastard.”

“Don’t we all?”

Toulouse may have left France, but it's inhabitants remains French in all ways that matter. There is no doubt Jules wears a stripey black and white jumper, has a ring of onions around his neck and often states into the ocean in black and white while melancholically smoking a Gauloises and contemplating the bleakness of existence (his existence is bleak because he is French and no amount of 'free love' can fill the aching void in his soul that this causes).

I'll not repeat what others have covered, but it is clear that Beaufort probably should stare into the ocean until he realises the truth that this is almost all his fault. Alas he is instead going to hurl himself into yet more warfare because he finds that easier than self-reflection. This remains an intensely personal conflict despite the grand scale.

 

[coz1]

Toulouse may have left France, but it's inhabitants remains French in all ways that matter. There is no doubt Jules wears a stripey black and white jumper, has a ring of onions around his neck and often states into the ocean in black and white while melancholically smoking a Gauloises and contemplating the bleakness of existence (his existence is bleak because he is French and no amount of 'free love' can fill the aching void in his soul that this causes).

You really must be careful with these glowing reviews of French culture lest someone accuse you of being a francophile, @El Pip.

I'll not repeat what others have covered, but it is clear that Beaufort probably should stare into the ocean until he realises the truth that this is almost all his fault. Alas he is instead going to hurl himself into yet more warfare because he finds that easier than self-reflection. This remains an intensely personal conflict despite the grand scale.

I must admit that when I first made the decision to lean into the affair between Ned and Harry, I did not anticipate it leading to this potential crises and conflict. However, I am personally quite pleased with how it has followed. Despite the implications for both (and very real end for Ned), it has allowed both actors a great chance to grow (maybe not in a good sense, but more well rounded out.)

 

[El Pip]

You really must be careful with these glowing reviews of French culture lest someone accuse you of being a francophile, @El Pip.

I genuinely cannot imagine a more terrible insult.
/shudder/

Despite the implications for both (and very real end for Ned), it has allowed both actors a great chance to grow (maybe not in a good sense, but more well rounded out.)

It might have been better for the realm if they had remained less rounded and un-grown, but it was good for the story and is that not the main thing?

 

[Bullfilter]

Beaufort is in danger of pushing himself down to the same level of the worst of his allies if he keeps going with this. It seems nothing will pull the scales from his eyes. Jules had some wise advice, even if delivered from a somewhat dissolute perspective. Time for him to die gloriously in a useless losing battle for an unworthy cause? Or will he punish himself further by continuing along this spiral of despair?

 

[Rensslaer]

Since @coz1 is having an atypical pause to take a breath from WOTR posting I'm going to place a reminder here for attentive readers to vote in the 2023 Yearly AARLand Year End Awards (YAYAs), as well as for the Q4-2023 AARLand Choice AwAARds, both of which have voting due at the very beginning of February (I think the 4th and 3rd respectively).

I know, first of all, that @coz1 has attracted many of AARLand's most committed and incisive readers here, so this is quite the place to have such a reminder. I also have noticed that @coz1 has urged voting all over AARLand, but maybe not so often here.

I know 2-3 of you have placed an "intend to vote" note but have not completed a ballot. Just reminding that the deadline is coming up quick! Plus your vote is more likely to prompt others to pay attention the earlier it appears, and your recommendations may form some basis for later votes from others.

Rensslaer

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

I genuinely cannot imagine a more terrible insult.
/shudder/


It might have been better for the realm if they had remained less rounded and un-grown, but it was good for the story and is that not the main thing?

It is always the main thing, to be sure.

Beaufort is in danger of pushing himself down to the same level of the worst of his allies if he keeps going with this. It seems nothing will pull the scales from his eyes. Jules had some wise advice, even if delivered from a somewhat dissolute perspective. Time for him to die gloriously in a useless losing battle for an unworthy cause? Or will he punish himself further by continuing along this spiral of despair?

Henry Beaufort has become one of my favorite characters to write for. There is a lot going on in that brain and it allows me to kind of write him stream of consciousness. He has multiple motives and many times they contradict each other.

Since @coz1 is having an atypical pause to take a breath from WOTR posting I'm going to place a reminder here for attentive readers to vote in the 2023 Yearly AARLand Year End Awards (YAYAs), as well as for the Q4-2023 AARLand Choice AwAARds, both of which have voting due at the very beginning of February (I think the 4th and 3rd respectively).

I know, first of all, that @coz1 has attracted many of AARLand's most committed and incisive readers here, so this is quite the place to have such a reminder. I also have noticed that @coz1 has urged voting all over AARLand, but maybe not so often here.

I know 2-3 of you have placed an "intend to vote" note but have not completed a ballot. Just reminding that the deadline is coming up quick! Plus your vote is more likely to prompt others to pay attention the earlier it appears, and your recommendations may form some basis for later votes from others.

Rensslaer

Thank you for reminding. I don't like to plug it too much in my own work as I do not wish to be seen as campaigning. But indeed yes...only one week left to vote. Get over there and support your favorites writAARs and AARs. We are still less than the voting numbers for last year, so we need every vote we can get. The more votes, the more accurate the result (as much as possible.) So go vote, vote, vote!

 

[coz1]

Westminster, July 1463​

Edmund stood at the ramparts and looked down over the river and on to London over the horizon. Hot summer rains had swelled the Thames and he watched the boatmen struggle. It was all inaction when his father was across the channel and fighting the French. He thought about Ned. He would surely be doing everything in his power to get there...to find his glory.

This Duke of Bedford, Prince to the King...had but one battle and barely escaped with his life. That of his father too. What was his worth as a warrior? Leighson would say that he was being too hard on himself, but truth be told, Edmund had little desire to fight in this war or any other. His older brother...even his younger brothers...they all had the martial spirit. Yet this Prince did not. He had seen it up close and preferred the books and learning. Not battle.

“You are pensive, Ed,” a voice called to him and Edmund turned to see his cousin.

“Full of thought, yes,” he replied.

Warwick allowed a smile, “Plenty of time for that these days when your father is off to war. Yet I may be helpful to you.”

With a skewed brow, Edmund stepped from the ramparts and paced the length of the wall, “I know not how. Nor do I think to need it. What then would you propose?”

“A battle, sir,” his cousin followed him, “And right to here. I was sore hurt not to accompany the King on this adventure but it seems the Scots have solved that trouble.”

Edmund turned with some worry, “They’ve crossed the border?”

“Indeed they have and siege in Northumberland,” Warwick allowed a laugh, “Mayhap they will sort the Percy problem for us, yet I would not allow it. My brother does fine work in that regard so this King James will be mine. And yours, should you wish.”

“I...” Edmund started to say but then stepped up to the wall again and looked out over the river with a silence.

Warwick dipped his head in acknowledgment, “It is no wrong thing to be studious, cousin. And no one imagines you as Ned. He was...too strong. Too persuasive in all of his matters. In truth, it likely got him...”

“Do not say it, sir,” Edmund spun on him, “I’ll not hear it. My brother was likely the finest man that I have ever known and his death harms me every day. As it does my mother...and my father.”

The Earl held up a soft hand, “I hear you, cousin. I loved him too. Yet he is not here and you are. And nearly ten thousand Scots pour over the border. What will you do?”

Edmund turned back to the river with question, “Where is my mother at the now?”

“With Wenlock and the Lord Chancellor,” Warwick replied with his own question, “Yet she is not regent, my Lord. You are.”

“Know it well,” he pressed to the stone with a grimace, “For I shall have to tell her that another son goes off to battle. And she will have to imagine it all over again.”

The Earl of Warwick stepped back and leaned to a stone tower, “Surely she did not imagine all peace and love in this endeavor, Ed. Not your mother. Lady Cecily knows every in and out of whatever she desires.”

“Queen Cecily,” Edmund reminded him.

“Indeed...Queen,” Warwick gave nod, “And while her husband is away, you are her rock. You know it. She depends upon you. As do we all. She will know this danger from the Scots and will honor you for striking them.”

Edmund held his gaze to the river, “It is all honor, yes? For papa...my mother. Ned. Even you, cousin.”

“What mean you?” the Earl questioned.

“You do flatter, cousin, when you want something,” Edmund watched crashing waves beat at the shoreline, “What is it?”

Warwick stood taller in answer, “My daughter reaches an age in which I must begin thought to her match, sir. At this time, your father has shut me out on any thought of matching her to one of his sons. I do know that you are betrothed to the Lady of Castile, cousin. Yet your brother George could suit my Isabel very well.”

“Honor,” Edmund repeated, “All must have it. Mayhap old King Henry was not wrong when all he wished was for prayer. For I can make no sense of this present without it. My God! My father is the bloody King of England and my brother...”

He pushed away from the wall and paced the stones again as he continued, “...my brother is not. He is not anything for he is gone. Yet we do have honor, yes? All the trappings of legitimate right and good as we ignore how we got to this place.”

“It does you little good to remember, Ed,” Warwick suggested, “There be no way to bring him back nor to change what has become. And it is the greater good that is served.”

Edmund turned to him, “You did not wish to go to war with France. Why?”

“I did not think it the right time,” the Earl answered clearly, “We have remedied the wrongful presence of King Henry and his whore while living for some years without Normandy or places elsewhere. It was a bitter pill to swallow when it happened so many years ago, but now I thought to find peace. Finally.”

“And yet you would revel in a fight with the Scots,” Edmund pressed, “And a chance to gain your glory that you do not find with my father.”

Warwick frowned, “That is harsh, sir. I too lost much in our struggle to sit the throne. I would not forget. Yet I do wonder why your father is so distrusting of my efforts when it was I that was first among men to champion his cause.”

“It has been some years, cousin...” Edmund stepped back to the wall, “...yet I do recall that you stood back when my father declared. Had you more forcefully backed him, we might not have seen Wakefield nor Towton.”

“I may not go back and change what has been done, Ed,” Warwick answered defensively, “What matters is the now. And as we are at war with France and Scotland, we must fight them.”

Edmund looked again to the river as he answered, “Fight them we shall. But let us not be blinded and believe that no ill has occurred. I am living proof of the dead that surround us all. And there is no one still alive that does not feel the pain.”

“Would you rather go back to exile, sir?” the Earl questioned, “For I would say that I would not.”

“That is a false question, cousin,” Edmund turned, “What is done is done and my father is King. It will be what he desires. Not you or I.”

“Of course,” Warwick agreed, “Yet it is time for you to begin making your mark. Like it or no, you are the heir. It is a thing that Ned understood exceedingly well and as he is no longer here, it falls to you no matter how heavy the burden. Great times are ahead of us, cousin. We must only get through this ordeal of your father’s choosing and then it will be at our fingertips.”

Edmund watched the strong current of the Thames flow, “I don’t want it. Whatever it is. And I can promise you this, cousin...my father will never agree to marry George or any of us to your daughter. Rather like a stray dog that you took in and find that it hates you nonetheless. I fear that my father thrives on chaos for he knows not what to do when all things are calm.”

“I know my worth,” Warwick replied, “And you know yours. No matter the hardship, I will be ever at the ready to defend proper order. Or would you rather be old King Henry, shut away and trapped to Caen with his whore wife and her bastard child?”

“Another false equivalence,” Edmund answered as he stepped close to his cousin, “I am neither Henry nor Ned. Yet I will do. I hold no other choice.”

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Edmund seems to have a good head on his shoulders, and have the measure of both his dad and Warwick.

Not sure what the Scots are thinking but smashing them to pieces and making them submit or burn down the lowlands seems a good a usage of time as anything else. Then again, Richard or Edmund, possibly both, are going to have to solve the scottish problne one day if they ever want to hold France. Unifying GB may not grant the same prestige as taking Paris and the French throne but it would certainly benefit England more in the long run
.

 

[HistoryDude]

There are definitely still divisions in the Yorkist camp, but Edmund is managing those well for now.

Are the Scottish and French Wars separate, or is Scotland honoring the Auld Alliance? If they are separate, what's Scotland's casus belli?

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

There's not too many divisions left now. Richard just has to be competent and live a while longer, get Edmund acclimatised to being the heir. Preferably win a war and bribe his camp with land and loot in order to show what a good king he is and also restore the Crownlands at the same time (sure, York is rich and has lots of land but it appears the Crown is missing a lot of what it should have). Combining the lands of York and Lancaster are a good start but that's what Richard is bringing to the monarchy. The states rightful land in the south needs to be under control too.

If at least some measure of normalcy, competence and relative wealth returns to England, Edmund should have an easier start to his reign. And he could do with that, because he has some big wars to fight.

 

[Bullfilter]

“I am neither Henry nor Ned. Yet I will do. I hold no other choice.”

Aye, there’s the rub! He will have to eventually work out who he is, rather than who he is not. When king (if that is his fate - nothing remains certain in this time) he cannot afford to remain in the shadow of either his father or dead brother. We know what lurks in shadows! Not only Lancasters and Warwicks, but even brothers. Though in this case he will not be tainted by the Tudor propaganda Shakespeare was obliged to pen, Little Rickon may yet turn out to be the bottled spider popular history came to regard him as.

 

[Rensslaer]

I'm looking forward to seeing Edmund on action. He seems wiser than most who surround him. That's maybe partly from his mother I suppose.

Rensslaer

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

The French need to be taught to speak correctly and the Scots have to learn to wear trousers. That's England's mission. Isabella will take charge of teaching our good old Aenglish to cook properly.

 

[El Pip]

The French need to be taught to speak correctly and the Scots have to learn to wear trousers. That's England's mission.

The French need to learn a great deal more than that. Seems easier to just abolish the idea of so-called France entirely and make the area part of the English Empire.

Isabella will take charge of teaching our good old Aenglish to cook properly.

How long can it take to learn to cook paella and is it actually worth the effort? ( )

On the actual chapter;
Not quite Grim Ned but he's bordering on it, his invocation of Henry is a concern as the last thing England needs is another King who doesn't really want the job. Hopefully giving the Scots a good kicking will snap him out of it, certainly he needs a kick up the arse from somewhere.

Warwick still seems somewhat out of character, maybe he's just under-estimating Edmund and so no trying but I remain disappointed in him. If he was on-form this is a golden opportunity to get on side with the heir and rebuild his influence, Edmund needs/wants someone to talk to and give actually useful advice as his father is very little help and Cecily remains withdrawn. Warwick could be that someone, they both suffered a deeply personal loss while following Richard and now both have been left behind while he gallivants around France, the approach writes itself. Instead he wastes his time on whining and schemes he (should) know are doomed while ham fistedly further damaging that relationship. As I said, disappointingly out of character.

 

[Historywhiz]

Warwick still seems somewhat out of character, maybe he's just under-estimating Edmund and so no trying but I remain disappointed in him. If he was on-form this is a golden opportunity to get on side with the heir and rebuild his influence, Edmund needs/wants someone to talk to and give actually useful advice as his father is very little help and Cecily remains withdrawn. Warwick could be that someone, they both suffered a deeply personal loss while following Richard and now both have been left behind while he gallivants around France, the approach writes itself. Instead he wastes his time on whining and schemes he (should) know are doomed while ham fistedly further damaging that relationship. As I said, disappointingly out of character.

The thing is though that isn’t this what happened OTL? Both Warwick and Edward IV shared an intense personal loss connecting them, yet rather than gain power and influence he threw it all away in spite once Edward turned down the marriage ideas.

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

The French need to learn a great deal more than that. Seems easier to just abolish the idea of so-called France entirely and make the area part of the English Empire.

Indeed, but let's go bit by bit. First to talk, then, to be abolished. No need to hurry.

How long can it take to learn to cook paella and is it actually worth the effort? ( )

Until she runs out of Britons to burn as heretics?

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

People aren't rational actors and Warwick (in this story) has always been something of an...obvious schemer and malcontent to just about everyone who outranks him or has more power. Him continuing to act like that when he kept getting away with it before now, and because he thinks he's dealing with a naive child, not the king of England, makes sense.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Edmund seems to have a good head on his shoulders, and have the measure of both his dad and Warwick.

Not sure what the Scots are thinking but smashing them to pieces and making them submit or burn down the lowlands seems a good a usage of time as anything else. Then again, Richard or Edmund, possibly both, are going to have to solve the scottish problne one day if they ever want to hold France. Unifying GB may not grant the same prestige as taking Paris and the French throne but it would certainly benefit England more in the long run.

It is true that defeating the Scots is likely a better answer long term, but I doubt those on hand at the moment think of it that way. They are still stung from losing their continental possessions. It's too soon after the events.

There are definitely still divisions in the Yorkist camp, but Edmund is managing those well for now.

Are the Scottish and French Wars separate, or is Scotland honoring the Auld Alliance? If they are separate, what's Scotland's casus belli?

Scotland and France are still in an alliance as IRL so they joined with the English DoW.

There's not too many divisions left now. Richard just has to be competent and live a while longer, get Edmund acclimatised to being the heir. Preferably win a war and bribe his camp with land and loot in order to show what a good king he is and also restore the Crownlands at the same time (sure, York is rich and has lots of land but it appears the Crown is missing a lot of what it should have). Combining the lands of York and Lancaster are a good start but that's what Richard is bringing to the monarchy. The states rightful land in the south needs to be under control too.

If at least some measure of normalcy, competence and relative wealth returns to England, Edmund should have an easier start to his reign. And he could do with that, because he has some big wars to fight.

There are always Beauforts out there. Too many if you ask me.

Aye, there’s the rub! He will have to eventually work out who he is, rather than who he is not. When king (if that is his fate - nothing remains certain in this time) he cannot afford to remain in the shadow of either his father or dead brother. We know what lurks in shadows! Not only Lancasters and Warwicks, but even brothers. Though in this case he will not be tainted by the Tudor propaganda Shakespeare was obliged to pen, Little Rickon may yet turn out to be the bottled spider popular history came to regard him as.

It is sort of a meta comment on my part, I suppose. As I am trying to get around who Edmund really is, so is he as a character.

I'm looking forward to seeing Edmund on action. He seems wiser than most who surround him. That's maybe partly from his mother I suppose.

Rensslaer

Possibly from Cecily, though he has spent the better part of his formative years around Richard. He may have learned a few lessons of what NOT to do from it.

The French need to be taught to speak correctly and the Scots have to learn to wear trousers. That's England's mission. Isabella will take charge of teaching our good old Aenglish to cook properly.

lol!

The French need to learn a great deal more than that. Seems easier to just abolish the idea of so-called France entirely and make the area part of the English Empire.

How long can it take to learn to cook paella and is it actually worth the effort? ( )

On the actual chapter;
Not quite Grim Ned but he's bordering on it, his invocation of Henry is a concern as the last thing England needs is another King who doesn't really want the job. Hopefully giving the Scots a good kicking will snap him out of it, certainly he needs a kick up the arse from somewhere.

Warwick still seems somewhat out of character, maybe he's just under-estimating Edmund and so no trying but I remain disappointed in him. If he was on-form this is a golden opportunity to get on side with the heir and rebuild his influence, Edmund needs/wants someone to talk to and give actually useful advice as his father is very little help and Cecily remains withdrawn. Warwick could be that someone, they both suffered a deeply personal loss while following Richard and now both have been left behind while he gallivants around France, the approach writes itself. Instead he wastes his time on whining and schemes he (should) know are doomed while ham fistedly further damaging that relationship. As I said, disappointingly out of character.

I can see where you might get that notion, however I tend to write for Warwick in the way that I feel about him. He was always scheming just a bit over his head and while relatively smart about it (debatable) early on, some of the power went to his head and he continued wanting more and more. It lead to his downfall IRL. Thus I have perhaps been more blatant about it in this writing. Maybe too on the nose, but still.

The thing is though that isn’t this what happened OTL? Both Warwick and Edward IV shared an intense personal loss connecting them, yet rather than gain power and influence he threw it all away in spite once Edward turned down the marriage ideas.

Precisely. And it wasn't just the rejection of his marriage proposal but so too his loss of influence in regards to Edward's marriage vis a vis what Warwick was trying to do with political matches in France. He wanted to be a Kingmaker, or thought himself one. I would think he would be no less than that here.

Indeed, but let's go bit by bit. First to talk, then, to be abolished. No need to hurry.


Until she runs out of Britons to burn as heretics?

I must say, I do look for ward to introducing Isabella when the time comes. It is not a spoiler to say she will appear in the work. Think of it as "coming attractions."

People aren't rational actors and Warwick (in this story) has always been something of an...obvious schemer and malcontent to just about everyone who outranks him or has more power. Him continuing to act like that when he kept getting away with it before now, and because he thinks he's dealing with a naive child, not the king of England, makes sense.

He considers himself the "first noble" in the land due to his wealth and relative power. Problem is, he's not and never will be. Both IRL and here, the King he help set up doesn't quite agree with that level of power and maybe wants to cut him down a peg or two. Smart or no, that seemed a reasonable assumption as to how it may go this go round just as it did historically. I said I would change some things up, but I neve considered making Warwick "thy trust dog" completely loyal to anything and everything his King said. Warwick has too much pride for that.