The Wars of the Roses

[El Pip]

I've really not got a lot to say as @Rensslaer has covered my points, I liked the multiple Charles', Caen appears to be the best option (and give the earlier flashback chapter had to be picked) and Henry needs sorting out somehow.

I do feel a bit for Warwick, relations with Richard are so bad he'd be blamed regardless of what he did;
- Leave Edmund behind "That cur is trying to steal the glory!"
- Not accompany Edmund "That coward has abandoned my son and left him to face danger alone and without advice!"
- Neither of them go "That fool is neglecting a vital threat, Edmund will be King and needs experience leading an army not playing in court!"

If Warwick could get himself killed fighting the Scots that might solve a great many future problems, as would Richard getting over-excited and charging into the walls of Caen I suppose, but I doubt anything will be that neat.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

They're doing sensible strategic and tactical decisions still. In England and France. So that's good.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

I'm now well into page 2. Just 84 more to go!

Thank you and good luck!

Random question: has anyone ever thought to mod the Wars of the Roses into CK3? Or has PDX ever considering extending the timeline of the game to include them? It's been said that CK is tailor-made for depicting things like Game of Thrones... which was of course inspired by the Wars of the Roses. Just push out that end date from 1453 to 1485...

An excellent question! I really wish I had something like that when I first considered this project. It does seem tailor made. I hope some ambitious person puts it into action, though sadly I would not be able to play it as I cannot play CK3 due to my ancient graphics card. Now...if they did it for CK2? I'd be on board.

@The Kingmaker it's an interesting question, to be sure. I'm not the one to answer you, though. Interested to hear the answers of others.



@coz1 this exchange got me to laughing, and the whole scene was very well scripted to show the options at hand, the victories, the defeats, the worries, and the frustration of it all.

Looking forward to seeing Richard and Somerset have their battle, if battle and not surrender they will have. It seems so futile for Somerset to fight when he realizes he's lost his true way.

...and Henry. Henry needs to be put to rest, in a monastery, or otherwise.

Rensslaer

I rather liked it myself. I cannot say Richard is witty, but sometimes he can be unintentionally funny.

Richard may now have found a da Vinci-designed helicopter to use to parent Edmund with! I know he will be wary after what happened to Edward and almost to him and Edmund, but he must let Edmund do for himself or he will be unprepared to govern when the time comes. And part of that is commanding, even if he is not a natural warrior.

This is good: action, now! And concentrated strength is harder to isolate, ambush or defeat in detail. To boldly go …

Another moment to show that Edward remains very much on Richard's mind. Yet I would like to see that helicopter design.

Let's hope Henry does not leave Caen before it falls. Richard doesn't want to have to chase his cousin across what was once France. That being said, would Henry even want to escape?

I pity future scholars of this era. They will have to keep track of so many people named Charles!

Think of what I had to do to write this. Between Charles, Henry, Richard, Edward, Elizabeth, Margaret etc, the names pile up. While it is a fascinating period, I could not say the same for their imaginations in naming children. No creativity at all.

Hmm. It would not take too much work to mod it in. Tech is the same aside from Canon being avaliable...

Just have to put the nobles in the right places, give them the claims they have, enough traits to railroad their behaviour somewhat, and do some events like making Henry incapable every so often...

Interesting idea.

Absolutely agreed!

I've really not got a lot to say as @Rensslaer has covered my points, I liked the multiple Charles', Caen appears to be the best option (and give the earlier flashback chapter had to be picked) and Henry needs sorting out somehow.

I do feel a bit for Warwick, relations with Richard are so bad he'd be blamed regardless of what he did;
- Leave Edmund behind "That cur is trying to steal the glory!"
- Not accompany Edmund "That coward has abandoned my son and left him to face danger alone and without advice!"
- Neither of them go "That fool is neglecting a vital threat, Edmund will be King and needs experience leading an army not playing in court!"

If Warwick could get himself killed fighting the Scots that might solve a great many future problems, as would Richard getting over-excited and charging into the walls of Caen I suppose, but I doubt anything will be that neat.

I believe that you have that right about Richard and Warwick. The Earl is in a rather impossible position. Yet it does bring back the old aphorism - "be careful what you wish for." It was important to Warwick to make Richard King. That accomplished, you get what you asked for warts and all.

They're doing sensible strategic and tactical decisions still. In England and France. So that's good.

Perhaps, for once?

 

[Lord Durham]

"Good morning, class."

"Good morning, Mr. York."

"Today we shall discuss 'The War of the Roses'. I trust every one has completed this assignment up to the present? Er, what are you doing, Amos?"

"I'm giving nods, Mr. York."

"Yes, well, that's quite enough nods for the day. Don't hurt yourself. Naomi, what--?"

"I'm standing tall, Mr. York."

"Ah. Well, please sit down. Good girl. OK. Actually, this is as good a place to start as any. It goes without saying this work is dialogue-heavy, as well as a little light on description. However, the author has turned a neat trick to keep the reader engaged. How is that? Anyone? Alex?"

"The author uses action descriptors to frame the dialogue, like 'giving nods' 'showing grins' and 'standing tall'".

"Very good. The use of these dialogue tags take what could be a dry reading and inject life through action and motion, helping shape a character's persona. Is there anything else that stood out from the use of these descriptors? Naomi?"

"'Said', Mr. York. The author never used the word 'said'. If he did, I don't recall seeing it."

"Good catch, Naomi. Whether that was by design or not, only the author can answer. There's a school of thought that leans toward the word 'said' as the only tag one should use, as its commonality makes the word invisible so a reader can focus on the dialogue itself. However, in this case the use of action coupled with dialogue works very well in a medieval setting. The author's word choice definitely gives the story an old English feel. Now, about the characters themselves. Any thoughts? Bobbie?"

"Margaret of Anjou is a narcissist. She's also an idiot. She only cares for herself and her needs, to the detriment of all else. And as Queen, that means to the detriment of the country. Kind of reminds me of our Prime Minister. But I digress. I thought the author did a marvellous job creating differing characters and infusing them with unique and consistent personalities. I was emotionally engaged with Margaret to the point I wanted to strangle her on more than one occasion. Kudos to the author for that. And don't get me started on Richard."

"Well, seeing you're on a roll, why not?"

"There's not much different between Margaret and Richard. He may not have narcissistic tendencies, but he's obstinate and single minded. England has just come out of a civil war. The country needs time to heal, but there's Richard, right back in the thick of it, England be damned; the people be damned; the treasury be damned. The only one with any sense at the moment is Warwick, surprisingly enough. His character has actually matured over the years, from brash to thoughtful. Again, kudos to the author."

"Interesting breakdown, Bobbie. Anyone else? Amos?"

"But war is fun."

"Thank you, Amos. How about you, Bueller. Anything to add? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller--?"

"Bueller's not in today, Mr. York. Off sick, apparently."

"Thank you, Camina. OK. Good job, class. As you can see, 'The War of the Roses' is a consistently enthralling work. In the meantime, until our next session, I want you all to read 'Book IV: The Free Company and the Last Bastion of Empire', a story of the fall of Constantinople. That's it for today, class."

 

[coz1]

"Yes, well, that's quite enough nods for the day. Don't hurt yourself. Naomi, what--?"

"I'm standing tall, Mr. York."

"Ah. Well, please sit down. Good girl. OK. Actually, this is as good a place to start as any. It goes without saying this work is dialogue-heavy, as well as a little light on description. However, the author has turned a neat trick to keep the reader engaged. How is that? Anyone? Alex?"

"The author uses action descriptors to frame the dialogue, like 'giving nods' 'showing grins' and 'standing tall'".

"Very good. The use of these dialogue tags take what could be a dry reading and inject life through action and motion, helping shape a character's persona. Is there anything else that stood out from the use of these descriptors? Naomi?"

"'Said', Mr. York. The author never used the word 'said'. If he did, I don't recall seeing it."

"Good catch, Naomi. Whether that was by design or not, only the author can answer. There's a school of thought that leans toward the word 'said' as the only tag one should use, as its commonality makes the word invisible so a reader can focus on the dialogue itself. However, in this case the use of action coupled with dialogue works very well in a medieval setting. The author's word choice definitely gives the story an old English feel. Now, about the characters themselves. Any thoughts? Bobbie?"

I must confess. I did use "said" once or twice.

I must also say that I was not aware or cognizant of "action descriptors" when writing my dialogue to action, per se. It is a good name for it. I tend to think of it as motivation. What causes one to rise from a chair? To rush head first into battle? To blink in just a certain way? The movement reflects the motivation. That then leads to development of character. I hope.

I do likely overuse some of them. Though I do make a point to use "standing as tall as he might" with Richard as often as I can to remind that he is actually a rather short man compared to some others, especially Henry.

I must say that I am terribly proud that Richard, Margaret, et al come across as true characters (even if Richard and Margaret have similar motivations) because without that, this story would not exist.

Thank you so much for reading through this, LD! It is an immense compliment and your fb post a wonderful scene/discussion of the craft which I wish to learn and practice every day. And I'll have to because I've just finished plotting out the next ten years and in some ways fully to the finish. I won't be as slow as some others to get to that ending ( ) but I'll get there, God willing. It's all up here (coz1 points to his head), I just have to get it out.

 

[Lord Durham]

I do likely overuse some of them. Though I do make a point to use "standing as tall as he might" with Richard as often as I can to remind that he is actually a rather short man compared to some others, especially Henry.

Actually, I interpreted the comment as a means to impose his will on someone, like letting them know 'This is who I am. I won't brook any crap.' I didn't think of height.

Thank you so much for reading through this, LD! It is an immense compliment and your fb post a wonderful scene/discussion of the craft which I wish to learn and practice every day. And I'll have to because I've just finished plotting out the next ten years and in some ways fully to the finish. I won't be as slow as some others to get to that ending ( ) but I'll get there, God willing. It's all up here (coz1 points to his head), I just have to get it out.

It was a great read, and I look forward to the next 10 years., hopefully not in a literal sense. I probably won't be around by then...

 

[Rensslaer]

@Lord Durham I wonder if your "class" might be a good addition if reposted to the SolAARium.

Rensslaer

 

[Lord Durham]

@Lord Durham I wonder if your "class" might be a good addition if reposted to the SolAARium.

Rensslaer

I dunno. I imagine there's always something to be said about 'said', he said. An awful lot has been written about the use of that word. Should you--shouldn't you. There's a great discussion about 'descriptors' in the The SolAARium. You'll find a link to it in the index created by @stnylan (bless his soul) at the bottom of my opening post. In fact, there's a ton of great material kicking around those halls just waiting to be read. But of course, you already know that, @Rensslaer.

 

[Rensslaer]

@Lord Durham yeah, there's lots of stuff about it. But that was funny, and you know humor gets the point across better. And that way you'll reach people who haven't seen this work.

Rensslaer

p.s. it would also continue to bring life to the project which has gone unnoticed for a while. I think it's worth keeping active so it continues to fulfill it's purpose.

 

[Lord Durham]

@Lord Durham yeah, there's lots of stuff about it. But that was funny, and you know humor gets the point across better. And that way you'll reach people who haven't seen this work.

Rensslaer

p.s. it would also continue to bring life to the project which has gone unnoticed for a while. I think it's worth keeping active so it continues to fulfill it's purpose.

Ok. I might be convinced. Let me mull it over a day or two. I guess it'll be a good opportunity to see if the 'SolARRium' has any legs these days.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Actually, I interpreted the comment as a means to impose his will on someone, like letting them know 'This is who I am. I won't brook any crap.' I didn't think of height.



It was a great read, and I look forward to the next 10 years., hopefully not in a literal sense. I probably won't be around by then...

That works too. As can be seen, I don't tend to use too many descriptions of looks, but do occasionally refer to one or two physical features. Otherwise, I prefer to let the reader conjure their own image.

@Lord Durham I wonder if your "class" might be a good addition if reposted to the SolAARium.

Rensslaer

I dunno. I imagine there's always something to be said about 'said', he said. An awful lot has been written about the use of that word. Should you--shouldn't you. There's a great discussion about 'descriptors' in the The SolAARium. You'll find a link to it in the index created by @stnylan (bless his soul) at the bottom of my opening post. In fact, there's a ton of great material kicking around those halls just waiting to be read. But of course, you already know that, @Rensslaer.

@Lord Durham yeah, there's lots of stuff about it. But that was funny, and you know humor gets the point across better. And that way you'll reach people who haven't seen this work.

Rensslaer

p.s. it would also continue to bring life to the project which has gone unnoticed for a while. I think it's worth keeping active so it continues to fulfill it's purpose.

Ok. I might be convinced. Let me mull it over a day or two. I guess it'll be a good opportunity to see if the 'SolARRium' has any legs these days.

The SolAARium is a wonderful feature and something we can always use.

 

[coz1]

Bamburgh, February 1464​

The frost was evidenced by their breath as they set out from Bamburgh Castle. It was cold...freezing even. And John de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk did not care for it, “Are we certain that we should not wait for your cousin, Ed?”

Edmund held at a slow trot in front of their small party and kept his eyes ahead, “Lord Stanley does say that Warwick and his brother remain to York and we needs must know how many Scots and where. I’m told nine thousand to the west. It may be that or no. Yet the Scots King is with them, it is said.”

“Then we should wait!” Suffolk pressed strongly, “We’ve barely five hundred!”

“We’re not to battle, Johnny,” Edmund answered, “Only to scout.”

The young Duke remained apprehensive, “Your last time to the north was almost the death of you, sir.”

Edmund considered it, “It has been some years...and that is the truth. Yet I may not allow fear to rule. If I am ever to be King...no. Especially here to the north.”

“Hear, hear, my Prince,” Sir Leighson responded as he rode behind them.

Suffolk looked back before reaching out from his saddle, “I promised Lillibet that I would see her and soon. Brother...I am no coward. Yet your mother...”

“My sister and mother will both reward us well when we return,” Edmund replied readily, “And these Scots will be returned to their home once all of us convene. They use the moment in France to make their play and it must not be allowed.”

Suffolk pulled his cloak close to his neck, “It’s damned risky.”

“I’ve heard that before,” Edmund thought about his older brother, “Yet no thing was won by not trying.”

John de la Pole allowed it to sit as they rode on in silence for a time. Eventually, they came to the river and looked out over the hills that followed on the other side. There they saw an encampment below with the Scots banner flying. Pulling to a stop, Edmund dismounted and led his horse to the edge, “There they are. How many do you figure?”

Leighson was quick to his side, “I’d wager three to four hundred, my Lord. Mayhap more. I think them too to be a scouting party.”

“Do you see the Percy banner?” Edmund called over his shoulder to Suffolk still to his horse, “Or that of Somerset and his kin?”

Suffolk squinted, “I’d not think Beaufort to be here, Ed. He is to France.”

“Lord Ros...or his younger brothers,” Edmund replied as he too squinted, “It is coordinated and they mean to return to England one way or the other. I would not put it past them to try.”

Leighson moved back to his mount, “There is only one way to find out, my Prince.”

“Agreed,” Edmund gave nod and lifted back to his destrier, “Let us make some noise, sirs!”

Archers and men at arms moved before them as they marched down to the river and tried to cross. It was partially frozen over but finding a shallow spot to forge, Edmund led them as they climbed back to the other side. Slowly and as silently as they might, the small train entered into a clearing and it was then that the Scots pulled their trap.

It seemed as if a thousand soldiers descended upon them without warning and Edmund and his were surrounded. The Duke of Suffolk and Sir Leighson were quick to pull up between themselves and the enemy to protect their Prince, but they were outnumbered. Some small fighting started but a lone figure rode up and held up his arm, “Enough!! We have them!!”

Edmund remained calm and looked closely before allowing a laugh, “Sir Ralph. So you finally show your face?”

Sir Ralph Percy grinned, “Did you think me to be quiet forever?”

The Duke of Suffolk held to the pommel of his sword, “King Richard did offer you pardon, sir. This be no way to repay such gift!”

“What gift is that?” Sir Ralph looked to Edmund, “To kill my father and my brothers and think that I would not remember? That I might forgive? I see no honor here to be respected.”

Edmund looked over the knight’s shoulder, “And see here...a Neville and Percy together at last.”

Sir Humphrey Neville showed no smile, “Your father should have stayed to England, my Lord. His troubles were never over.”

“Nor are mine, it would seem,” Edmund reined in his mount as he shifted in the saddle, “Yet you do realize that we hold your nephew still to the Tower, Sir Ralph. This be no way to free him.”

“Here be the man that slew Wiltshire,” Percy narrowed his brow with disdain, “It is no thing to kill a coward, my Lord. These men here are not that.”

Suffolk again tried to answer them, “The Earl of Warwick is not far behind with the full of our force!”

“You should have stayed to court, my Lord,” Percy replied as he rounded them both on his mount, “For you would have been safer. We shall see Warwick when he arrives. Until then, I propose that you be our guest to what castle I still hold to these parts. We shall then find who is important and who is not.”

The young Duke pulled his sword in protection but Edmund stopped him, “They’ll not harm us, Johnny. Put that away. If they meant to kill us, we would be dead already.”

“There’s a smart Prince,” Sir Humphrey gave nod.

Sir Ralph followed as he held up his arm, “And to show we mean no harm...”

An archer lifted his bow and an arrow pierced Sir Leighson to the shoulder causing his horse to bolt. It was an old wound already and the now seasoned soldier took the moment to ride out in the confusion. Some few chased but Sir Ralph only laughed, “Young boys and old men. You’ll all be dead soon enough.”

Edmund looked on with worry as he saw his friend and tutor ride away and hoped for the best as he and the others were quickly rounded up and marched back to Dunstanburgh Castle on the coast.

As they rode back across the river and over the frosty ground, Sir Ralph pulled up alongside, “I had thought York and his as warriors. It seems as not.”

Edmund did not reply and kept his gaze ahead.

Sir Ralph continued, “And that one...he’ll be dead upon the morn.”

The Prince still did not answer.

Sir Ralph goaded again, “Not quite the famed Plantagenet, sir. Certainly not your brother.”

Edmund turned in his saddle and slapped Sir Ralph hard with his mailed hand. It knocked the knight from his mount and he moved for his sword but stopped. As Sir Ralph lifted to a knee and gathered his breath he grinned, “That is one, my Lord. There shall not be another.”

 

[Rensslaer]

Oh wow. I saw this coming. I knew he would be caught. But Edmond recouped my respect with that last slap. Nice! Lol

A rare criticism... I didn't follow the thing with Leighson. The Percy's say they'll prove they won't hurt anyone so they shoot Leighson? But it's an old wound? And next thing I know he's bolting from captivity after being shot. It just doesn't make sense to me and maybe it's me.

Great suspenseful scene! Wonder if Warwick will rescue him and regain King Richard's gratitude.

Rensslaer

 

[HistoryDude]

Richard is going to despise that... even if Warwick frees the prince.

Will Edmund ever escape all of these comparisons to Ned?

 

[Lord Durham]

Fb-fb:


That works too. As can be seen, I don't tend to use too many descriptions of looks, but do occasionally refer to one or two physical features. Otherwise, I prefer to let the reader conjure their own image.

Ah. The Hemingway school of prose, is it?

So, Edmund's led his men into a trap. Assuming Leighson lives (and I'm sure he will) and reaches Warwick, the question becomes: What will Warwick do?

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

The sensible thing for Warwick to do is ride to the rescue, win the battle, push the Scots back and earn some favour with the royals.

But...you know...people don't do sensible in this AAR.

 

[El Pip]

The sensible thing for Warwick to do is ride to the rescue, win the battle, push the Scots back and earn some favour with the royals.

At this point there is no sensible, at least not between Warwick and the King.

I am hoping for Warwick to ride in and do all that because it would be nice to see Warwick allowed some competency, but even if he did I think he would only get favour from Edmund and Richard would just blame him for Edmund being captured in the first place.

That said the cunning play from Warwick is to free Edmund and then giving him the credit for hammering the Scots in the battles that follow. He should by now know Richard will give him little favour regardless, but helping Edmund escape the shadow of his brother through an important victory would get him back in with the next generation of royals.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Oh wow. I saw this coming. I knew he would be caught. But Edmond recouped my respect with that last slap. Nice! Lol

A rare criticism... I didn't follow the thing with Leighson. The Percy's say they'll prove they won't hurt anyone so they shoot Leighson? But it's an old wound? And next thing I know he's bolting from captivity after being shot. It just doesn't make sense to me and maybe it's me.

Great suspenseful scene! Wonder if Warwick will rescue him and regain King Richard's gratitude.

Rensslaer

It is entirely possible the bit with Leighson was rushed. The idea was that Percy was cruel and said he would not harm them knowing full well that he would. As example, he shot on Leighson. I suppose it was to mark Leighson's now long history that I included the previous injury. And the I thought he'd take that moment to escape. Clumsy, quite possibly.

Will Edmund ever escape all of these comparisons to Ned?

Likely not. The memory of him effects many of the main characters.

Ah. The Hemingway school of prose, is it?

//Shudder//

Not quite that simple.

So, Edmund's led his men into a trap. Assuming Leighson lives (and I'm sure he will) and reaches Warwick, the question becomes: What will Warwick do?

It's probably no great secret that Edmund will be rescued. And one has to assume that Warwick will do the right thing. The question of how took me a minute in the writing.

The sensible thing for Warwick to do is ride to the rescue, win the battle, push the Scots back and earn some favour with the royals.

But...you know...people don't do sensible in this AAR.

No. No they don't.

At this point there is no sensible, at least not between Warwick and the King.

I am hoping for Warwick to ride in and do all that because it would be nice to see Warwick allowed some competency, but even if he did I think he would only get favour from Edmund and Richard would just blame him for Edmund being captured in the first place.

That said the cunning play from Warwick is to free Edmund and then giving him the credit for hammering the Scots in the battles that follow. He should by now know Richard will give him little favour regardless, but helping Edmund escape the shadow of his brother through an important victory would get him back in with the next generation of royals.

I shall send your missive right off to the Lord of Warwick. There is no guarantee that he will heed such sage advice.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

No. No they don't.

You know...as deranged as certain people make my AARs out to be, everyone at least is a self serving SOB constantly doing understandable stuff to get their own ends.

Except Neville Chamberlain. Who really was just insane.

 

[coz1]

You know...as deranged as certain people make my AARs out to be, everyone at least is a self serving SOB constantly doing understandable stuff to get their own ends.

Except Neville Chamberlain. Who really was just insane.

Understandable could be predictable, but then again, these characters could be predictably insane.