Tinto Maps #13 Maghreb Feedback

[Djazairi]

The Berber influence is behind some words and probably the difference in pronunciation, but there are so many other differences that come from within Arabic. nnejjem vs kan9der, bzaf vs barcha, daba vs tawa, kanhder/kandwi vs ne7ki, lazemni/yilzimni vs khassni, bghit vs n7ebb/7ebbit, zwin vs bahi, mani vs ana machi, femma vs kain, and many more. In Morocco bech is "so/in order to", in Tunisia it seems to be the future tense. Past tense for you in Morocco is -ti for both genders, in Tunisia it's -t. The Tunisian pronunciation of alif is very distinct, they make it into é. All of these words come from Arabic, not Berber. And yeah they're easy to understand/pick up, but they make the dialects have a really different feel. Compare Palestinian and Syrian dialects and they'd be much closer and differ mainly in pronunciation, that's why they're one culture.

Anwyays they've already split Egyptian into two cultures - I don't know if it's the right choice, but they probably aren't going to undo it. and go look at how granular the French, German and now Polish cultures are, every little dialect and region is its own culture. So it'll be unbalanced to have one big Maghrei culture by comparison.

Oh boy, don't start me on those regional differences, I love them :
In Algeria, we have bezaf but also... ktir and yaser depending on the region.
We say bahi in the East, other regions say chbab, in the south Rzin.
No daba nor tawa here, we say dork or al an.
Icing on the cake, the chawiyya use the feminine even for males as in Anti djiti (you came).
I could go on and on.

My problem is that those differences arose much later than the timeframe of the game.
In 1337, there were various Berber cultures and dialects, the settled arabs who were there since the early conquest in the largest cities and the newly arrived nomads whose influence on the countryside gave birth to the Maghrebi culture.
It would be anachronistic by several centuries to distinguish 3 different Arabic cultures in the Maghreb.

Since they're so keen on making the cultures that granular then yes it should be nomad arabs (Banu Hilal and Banu Sulaym migrations) and historically Settled arabs.

Even today you can tell this by the pronunciation of the letter ق as a G or a Q.

 

[nyetflix2]

My problem is that those differences arose much later than the timeframe of the game.

I'm not sure this is the case. Yes the nomadic Arabs had just arrived from the middle east, but the settled Arabs had already had many centuries to diverge from each other. But even so, paradox has shown they prefer to start cultures separately even if they haven't diverged yet in 1337, as there are Turkish/Azeri/Turkmen cultures instead of one Oghuz culture, and there is a Silesian culture separate from Polish. It's about whether it will become more relevant as the game progresses.

Yep I notice when someone says 9al/i9oul instead of gal/igoul, it has a softer sound. And I know some words and phrases sound really "3roubi". I don't think it's as big a difference as between Morocco and Tunisia overall, but maybe we can agree to disagree. And btw some regions of Morocco apparently say droka or dork similar to Algeria, though I didn't spend much time in those places. I didn't know any vernacular dialect uses al an, but sometimes in Morocco people will say dabal-an, like they're combining two words for it.

 

[Djazairi]

But even so, paradox has shown they prefer to start cultures separately even if they haven't diverged yet in 1337, as there are Turkish/Azeri/Turkmen cultures instead of one Oghuz culture, and there is a Silesian culture separate from Polish. It's about whether it will become more relevant as the game progresses.

In that case, I understand the divide and agree with you.
In 1337 it's irrelevant but 3 or 4 centuries later it makes sense as the 3 proto-States progressively emerged.

I generally agree with you on the dialects, my opinion is not so clear-cut I would say. Since I'm a native speaker I may be biased too.

 

[nyetflix2]

In that case, I understand the divide and agree with you.
In 1337 it's irrelevant but 3 or 4 centuries later it makes sense as the 3 proto-States progressively emerged.

I generally agree with you on the dialects, my opinion is not so clear-cut I would say. Since I'm a native speaker I may be biased too.

Well if you're biased, I'm more biased. I'm comfortable saying I know darija well but not perfectly, and I don't know Algeria or Tunisia super in depth. I respect your opinion.

At any rate I'll stay neutral on how it's split, I just think Morocco and Tunisia having the same culture would be too broad.

 

[CaesarOfCK]

I don't agree, if the distinction doesn't exist between nomads and sedentary people in the Levant and in Iraq, why make it in the Maghreb ?

Why you say? For one simple reason: Is that it is an issue that is still relevant today in the Maghreb and lof of sedantary and nomadic cultures either blended or assimilated part of each other cultures. In Tunisia and Morocco, the rulers of berber stock decided to assimilate into Pre-Hilali (Andaloussi) arabic and adopt a lot of its cultural heritage (during 1337 and before) and a lot of berber chieftains would adopt the Pre-Hilali arab lineage and identity later.

Why did they adopt specifically the Pre-Hilali arab cultural heritage and language specifically and not the nomadic one? Because it was seen as prestigious and more civilized culture than the nomadic one, with mainy feats in Andalus, it also gave them the claim of being related to the Andalussis and be seen as their liberators (the Andalussis didn't like berber dynasties like the Almoravids and Almohads).
The most important reason is that through the assimilation into the Pre-Hilali arabs, they could claim to be descendant of the clans who themselves claim to be the descendant of the prophet, thing that the Hilali tribes couldn't do. Those berber dynasties (kings or tribal chiefs) assimilating into the Pre-Hilali arabs would adopt the prophet's lineage, granting them a stronger claim as rulers over their people (some dynasties still do this today).

The Pre-Hilali vs Hilali divide can still be felt into the 21st century, in some parts.
Not all Moroccan arabs claim to be related to the prophet or have their lineage, but those who do cans still receive benefits from the state through Zawayas (at least those would have control over the Zawayas). You can also hear Pre-Hilali arabs call Hilali arab "3roubi" and use this word as a derogatory word to compare between the "peasant" status of Hilali arabs and the seentary/city-dweller status of Pre-Hilali arabs.

If the divide, that started way back before 1337, can still be felt today, why not reflect in game in this timeperiod when the Maghrebi identities are beginning to change and evolve?

 

[Djazairi]

Pre-hilali arabs and andalusi are not synonyms.

After the Berber revolt, the arab migration to the West stopped but the Maghreb and Iberia didn't follow the same cultural path.

The pre-hilali arabs were very few in the Maghreb and didn't have a lot of cultural influence on north africa as a whole.
Yes they were seen as very prestigious families being the ones who carried Islam into the region but that's it.
And above all they weren't many of them and they were very concentrated into the large cities of power in northern Morocco , Bejaya and Kairwan mainly.
And yes until now, some families claim to be their descendants.

The Maghreb was arabized by the Banu Hilal and Banu Sulaym. That's when the countryside's berbers who shared the same lifestyle as them began to speak Arabic and slowly became Arabs.

This is what gave birth to the Magrebi culture in the 10th century and onwards.

Which is exactly the same process that happened in Iraq by the way. The countryside in Iraq wasn't arabized until the nomads migrated here when the caliphal authority started to collapse. You could also argue that there is an urban arab culture and a nomadic one there.
The difference is that the old urban arab culture of Iraq was wiped out by the Turko-Mongols.


On the other hand, arabic became the main vernacular language in Iberia way long before the Maghreb, because of the Umeyyad rule.

And despite having similarities, we don't speak the same way as the Andalusis did.

Some cities in Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia still carry some loanwords from their dialects because those who could fled there after the Christians conquered them, they also had an influence on music and poetry.


And yes up to this day, there are big differences between sedentary and nomadic/peasant arab cultures but this is the case everywhere in the Arab world not only in the Maghreb.

Ask a real Damascene whose family has been there for centuries what he thinks of the fresh immigrants from Deir-ezzor.
Same for Hijazis/Nejdis etc.


It's not only in the Maghreb that you sould distinguish between Sedentary people and Nomads.

 

[Wildrake]

Which is exactly the same process that happened in Iraq by the way. The countryside in Iraq wasn't arabized until the nomads migrated here when the caliphal authority started to collapse. You could also argue that there is an urban arab culture and a nomadic one there.
The difference is that the old urban arab culture of Iras was wiped out by the Turko-Mongols.

Different thing. Both Syria, Iraq and Egypt had some significant Arabian presence millennia before the Islamic conquest. In the case of Iraq, it was the Characene Kingdom, Arabaya Kingdom, and Lakhmids.

 

[Djazairi]

Different thing. Both Syria, Iraq and Egypt had some significant Arabian presence millennia before the Islamic conquest. In the case of Iraq, it was the Characene Kingdom, Arabaya Kingdom, and Lakhmids.

Compared to the whole settled populations of Mesopotamia and Egypt, their number was very small and they had no cultural impact.

Egypt and Iraq became Arab after those large migrations in the 10th-13th centuries.

 

[Wildrake]

Compared to the whole settled populations of Mesopotamia and Egypt, their number was very small and they had no cultural impact.

Egypt and Iraq became Arab after those large migrations in the 10th-13th centuries.

Arbayistan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Northern Iraq was literally called Arbayistan in Sassanid times. Before that, even Xenophon designated the region as "Arabia".

Arabian Nome - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In Egypt, there was a part called "Arabian Nome", which implies that there was a significant population of Arabs there. Outside of this nome, there were also many other Arabic settlements in Egypt such as Ptolemais Arabon in Fayyum and other named in Greek "quarter of the Arabs" (amfodon arabon), "village of Arabs". "‘You shall not see the tribes of the Blemmyes or of the Saracens’: On the Other ‘Barbarians’ of Late Roman Eastern Desert of Egypt." by Timothy Power also mentions that Ptolemeans settled Arabs in the Egypt as mercenaries to protect borders. The Life of John the Almsgiver also speaks that when Sassanids launched their invasion into the Middle East many Bedouin fled to the Egypt decades before Islamic conquest.

 

[Djazairi]

Sure I'm not against you.

I'm just saying that those places were never culturally "Arab" before the migration out of the peninsula.
That's when settled people in the countryside slowly stopped speaking Coptic, Syriac, Aramaic etc and adopted arabic.
That's also when those places became majority muslim.

Were there much more arabs in Iraq or in the Levant compared to the Maghreb before ? Sure.
Did the countryside people actually speak arabic and consider themselves Arabs before the migration ? No.

 

[TomislavAddai]

Compared to the whole settled populations of Mesopotamia and Egypt, their number was very small and they had no cultural impact.

Egypt and Iraq became Arab after those large migrations in the 10th-13th centuries.

Is it possible to trace back areas that were pre-hilalian Arabic and Hilalian Arabic? If so, whaat names of the cultures would you suggest?

 

[CaesarOfCK]

Is it possible to trace back areas that were pre-hilalian Arabic and Hilalian Arabic? If so, whaat names of the cultures would you suggest?

Yes, it is quite easy to track, there are enough sources, specially for Pre-Hilali arabs. I'm not good at naming cultures, but Pre-Hilali arabs who were there way before the Hilali and Andaloussi migration should get their own little culture (they would be a minority). Then they should either blend or assimilate with Andaloussi culture (there could be an event for that) once the Andaloussis begin migrating to North Africa (historically speaking these Pre-Hilali arabs assimilated with Andaloussi migrants who themselves are part of the Pre-Hilali group too).
As for Hilali arabs, simply call them maghrebi bedouins, but they should definitely be different from the bedouins of the Mashreq and the middle east.

 

[Djazairi]

Yes, it is quite easy to track, there are enough sources, specially for Pre-Hilali arabs. I'm not good at naming cultures, but Pre-Hilali arabs who were there way before the Hilali and Andaloussi migration should get their own little culture (they would be a minority). Then they should either blend or assimilate with Andaloussi culture (there could be an event for that) once the Andaloussis begin migrating to North Africa (historically speaking these Pre-Hilali arabs assimilated with Andaloussi migrants who themselves are part of the Pre-Hilali group too).
As for Hilali arabs, simply call them maghrebi bedouins, but they should definitely be different from the bedouins of the Mashreq and the middle east.

Yes and as I was saying previously the Maghrebi culture is exactly this : the mix of the Hilali Bedouins and the Berbers.

This gave birth to the subcultures of the modern Maghreb as the 3 proto-States progressively emerged.

But they still are subcultures and should not exist in 1337.

However be careful with the way you classify the Andalusis :

The pre-hilali arabs migrated in the 7th century into the Maghreb in small numbers and into Al Andalus in even smaller numbers.

But the Andalusis refugees of the 13th-16th century are very different from the Arabs of the Maghreb.

They're muslims from Al Andalus who speak their own arabic dialect and their culture is different by this point.
Most of them are descendants of the Iberians who converted to Islam and arabized.

They only share the trait of being sedentary arabs living in cities.

 

[Atromb]

Probably relevant to repost this culture proposal from the original thread, haven't updated it to the new loc set up but should be close enough.
Primary culture map:

Legend:
-Masmuda= Masmuda
-San= Sanhaja
-Zen= Zenata
-Lam= Lamtuna
-Mag= Maghrebi
-Maq= Maqili
-Hil= Hilali
-Ifr= Ifiqiyyan
-Lyb= Lybian/Sulaymi
-Kab= Kabylian
-Cha= Chaoui
-E Be= Eastern Berber
-Moz= Mozabite
-Tua= Various tuareg cultures
Main minority map:

-Afr= African romance speakers
-Tou= Toubou
-Har= Haratin

 

[Aramenian]

I think the name of the Libyan culture should be changed to Tripolitanian and a new Arabic culture, Fazazna, should be added in Fezzan.

The Languages of the Fezzan in the 19th Century

[The following is a short article by Maarten Kossmann of Leiden University] The Fezzan is the name of a large region occupying the whole south-eastern quarter of present-day Libya. It consists of s…

orientalberber.wordpress.com

Judeo-Tripolitanian Arabic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Aramenian]

Figuig Oasis can be made a Moroccan vassal country with the ruling dynasty of Beni Cid el-Moulouk

Figuig

Figuig est un groupe d’oasis et de villages occupant, dans l’extrême sud-est marocain, une vaste dépression encadrée de crêtes dépendant de l’Atlas saharien, dans la partie occidentale des Monts de...

journals.openedition.org

Figuig - Viquipèdia, l'enciclopèdia lliure

ca.wikipedia.org

Ajdir Info 1

Numéro 1

www.calameo.com

Matghara

Les Matghara font partie de la grande confédération des Botr*. Ils sont comme les Maghila et les Matmata*, descendants de Fatan Ibn Tamsit Ibn Dari selon les généalogistes qui les appellent aussi M...

journals.openedition.org

 

[nyetflix2]

I think the name of the Libyan culture should be changed to Tripolitanian and a new Arabic culture, Fazazna, should be added in Fezzan.
View attachment 1249515

The Languages of the Fezzan in the 19th Century

[The following is a short article by Maarten Kossmann of Leiden University] The Fezzan is the name of a large region occupying the whole south-eastern quarter of present-day Libya. It consists of s…

orientalberber.wordpress.com

Judeo-Tripolitanian Arabic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 1249513

I'd call it Fezzani, Fazazna is probably the plural

 

[nyetflix2]

Probably relevant to repost this culture proposal from the original thread, haven't updated it to the new loc set up but should be close enough.
Primary culture map:
View attachment 1248895
Legend:
-Masmuda= Masmuda
-San= Sanhaja
-Zen= Zenata
-Lam= Lamtuna
-Mag= Maghrebi
-Maq= Maqili
-Hil= Hilali
-Ifr= Ifiqiyyan
-Lyb= Lybian/Sulaymi
-Kab= Kabylian
-Cha= Chaoui
-E Be= Eastern Berber
-Moz= Mozabite
-Tua= Various tuareg cultures
Main minority map:
View attachment 1248896
-Afr= African romance speakers
-Tou= Toubou
-Har= Haratin

Should the Haratin speak Arabic or Tamazight? Also are you sure they should be that populous in 1337? As Moulay Ismail imported a lot of them during his rule.

 

[Atromb]

Should the Haratin speak Arabic or Tamazight? Also are you sure they should be that populous in 1337? As Moulay Ismail imported a lot of them during his rule.

At this point in time I would assume they would primarily speak tamazight.
As for their population, I wouldn't say I represented them as being that populous, they are simply the only significant minority in sijilmasa. But yes I do believe they should represent more than 10% of the population of the area, do keep in mind sijilmasa is at this point still the most important trans-saharan trade town in north africa and that haratin slaves/servants were a fairly important 'comodity'.
I do also recall reading about Sijilmasa and the nearby area hosting an important haratin community, the largest in morocco at the time, while doing the research for the map, but don't recall were I found it, so can't provide sources unfortunately.

 

[YooNiceDoor]

Coastal cities such as Dellys bejaia Algiers and Inland Tlemcen all spoke pre-hilali. Btw the Arabic they said was very similar to Andalusians later on. These groups should be in urban cities and maybe some countryside around those cities should have this sort of Andalusian culture. Andalusians founded Dellys and spoke Arabic in an Andalusian way, the countryside spoke a mix of pre and hilali, and its culture to this day is heavily influenced by it, it should get some pre-hilali or Andalusia culture.