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Tinto Maps #18 Persia & Caucasus Feedback

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Kurds weren't a majority in Hasakah in the 14th century. The significant presence of Kurds in this area can be attributed to 20th-century migration from Turkey due to oppressive policies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_immigration_into_Syria
 
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Small detail: the Sutayids should also be a steppe horde. If the Jalayirids are a steppe horde, the Sutayids are a steppe horde.

Also whatever event that spawns the Aq Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunlu should also spawn them as steppe hordes.
 

The Atlas of Persia & the Caucasus in 1337


Here is my attempt at detailed feedback on the review, mostly using information from posts in the first Persia & Caucasus thread.


Maps

The following maps should give the most accurate picture of what the countries and borders of this region are. Very easy to compare to the in-game map using the arrow keys.

I've kept the independent colours, so that the countries' borders can be seen easier. You can find subject relations in the table further below.


The Reviewed Map compared to the Community Feedback Map:

1743884689641.png
Countries.png


Locations:

Locations.png



Zoomed in Maps:

Here you can see the countries in close-ups, labeled with their names.

Caucasus:

Edit: Khikhani location should be under Georgia, not Samstkhe

Zoom Caucasus.png
Zoom Caucasus Locations.png



South-West:

Zoom Southwest.png
Zoom Southwest Locations.png


South-East:

Zoom Southeast.png
Zoom Southeast Locations.png


Khorasan:

Zoom Khorasan.png
Zoom Khorasan Locations.png



Country Information:

Here are some of the compiled countries, with their titles, types, rulers, dynasties, their rulers' cultures and religions. Many of them are empty due to lack of information, and some I've filled with guesswork.

NOTE: Cultures & Religions are those of the RULER, not necessarily the population

NOTE: Vassal relations are represented by indentations.

Jalayirid Faction

CountryTitle (Ruler Title)TypeRulerDynastyCultureReligion
JalayiridsUlus (Ulus Beg)HordeHasan BuzurgJalayiridMongolSunni
Shirvan​
Shahdom (Shah)MonarchyKayqubad IKasranidAdhari-
Ispahbad​
Principality (Prince)MonarchyBadr al-dīn MahmūdIspahbadTalysh-
Khalkhal​
Emirate (Emir)Monarchy--Adhari-
Artaz​
Principality (Prince)Monarchy-AmatuniArmenianCatholic
Donboli​
Emirate (Emir)TribeCemşidDonboliKurdishYazidi
Ardalan​
Emirate (Emir)Tribe-ArdalaniKurdish-
Kalhor​
Emirate (Emir)Tribe-KalhoriKurdish-
Rankali​
Emirate (Emir)TribeJamal al-Din TalanRankaliKurdish-
Kelali​
Emirate (Emir)Tribe-KelaliKurdish-
Hasnuya​
Emirate (Emir)Tribe-HasnuyaKurdish-
Zebari​
Emirate (Emir)TribeShabab al-DinZebariKurdish-
Saqiyya​
Emirate (Emir)TribeShuja al-Din Abu Bakr RamakiSaqiyyaKurdish-
Kurani​
Emirate (Emir)TribeMuhammedKuraniKurdish-
Hadhur​
Emirate (Emir)TribeTaj al-DinHadhuriKurdish-
Kartawi​
Emirate (Emir)TribeAbu BakrKartawiKurdish-
Sabuli​
Emirate (Emir)TribeBurekSabuliKurdish-
Hasbani​
Emirate (Emir)TribeAbdallahHasbaniKurdish-
Merkewan​
Emirate (Emir)Tribe-MerkewaniKurdish-
Eretnids​
Emirate (Emir)HordeAla al-Din EretnaEretnidUyghurSunni
Sutayids​
Ulus (Ulus Beg)HordeHajji TaghaySutayidMongolSunni
Sasun​
Principality (Prince)Monarchy-HoloArmenian-
Rshtunik​
Principality (Prince)Monarchy-ArtsruniArmenian-
Cemisgezek​
Emirate (Emir)Tribe-MalkishiKurdish-
Çapakçur​
Emirate (Emir)TribeShapSuwaydidKurdish-
Egil​
Emirate (Emir)TribeIsaBulduqaniKurdish-
Hazro​
Emirate (Emir)Tribe-ZraqiKurdish-
Zirqan​
Emirate (Emir)TribeZeydoZerrakiKurdish-
Jolemark​
Emirate (Emir)Tribe-JolemarkiKurdish-
Bohtan​
Emirate (Emir)TribeIzz al-DinBohtaniKurdishYazidi
Mazenjani​
Emirate (Emir)TribeIzz al-DinMazenjaniKurdish-
Zerzari​
Emirate (Emir)TribeNajm al-DinZerzariKurdish-
Sohri​
Emirate (Emir)TribeHosamSohriKurdish-
Dasni​
Emirate (Emir)TribeAla al-Din Kurek ibn IbrahimDasniKurdishYazidi
Bitlis​
Emirate (Emir)TribeDia' al-DinRuzagiKurdish-
Mus​
Emirate (Emir)TribeShams al-DinRuzagiKurdish-
Hizan​
Emirate (Emir)Tribe--Kurdish-
Click to expand...

Borjigid Faction

CountryTitle (Ruler Title)TypeRulerDynastyCultureReligion
QasaridsIlkhanate (Ilkhan)HordeTogha TemürBorjigidMongol-
Hamadan​
Emirate (Emir)MonarchyMahmudQutlughPersianSunni
Qom​
EmirateMonarchyTal al-Din AliAsilPersianSunni
Kashan​
Emirate (Emir)MonarchyLatif AllahKashiPersianSunni
Astarabad​
Emirate (Emir)MonarchyShaykh AliHinduMazanderaniShiite
Jauni Qurban​
Ulus (Ulus Beg)HordeArghun ShahArghunidOiratSunni
Esfarayen​
Emirate (Emir)MonarchyShaykh AliQushjiKhorasaniSunni
Sabzevar​
Emirate (Emir)MonarchyAla al-Din MuhammadFarayumadiKhorasaniSunni
Kuhistan​
Emirate (Emir)MonarchyAbd-AllahMulaiPersianSunni
Tabaristan​
Malikate (Malik)MonarchyFakhr al-Dawla Hasan IIBavandidMazanderaniShiite
Herat​
Malikate (Malik)MonarchyMu'izz-uddin HusaynKartidPersianSunni
Merv​
Emirate (Emir)Tribe-SanjariTurkmenSunni
Khaf​
Emirate (Emir)Monarchy-KhwafiPersianSunni
RostamdarOstan (Ostandar)MonarchyJalal al-Dawla Iskandar IIBaduspanidMazanderaniShiite
HüleguidsIlkhanate (Ilkhan)HordeMusaBorjigidMongolSunni
Hillah​
Sharifate (Sharif)MonarchyAhmad RumaythaQatadidHijaziZaydi
Click to expand...

Chobanid Faction

CountryTitle (Ruler Title)TypeRulerDynastyCultureReligion
ChobanidsUlus (Ulus Beg)HordeHasan KuchakChobanidMongolTengri
Click to expand...

Non-Aligned Countries


CountryTitle (Ruler Title)TypeRulerDynastyCultureReligion
GeorgiaKingdom (Mepe)MonarchyGiorgi VBagrationiGeorgianOrthodox
Alastani​
Saeristavo (Eristavi)MonarchyAndronicusBagrationiGeorgianOrthodox
Samstkhe​
Saeristavo (Eristavi)MonarchyQvarqvareJaqeliGeorgianOrthodox
Ksani​
Saeristavo (Eristavi)MonarchyVirshel IIBibiluriGeorgianOrthodox
Ani​
Principality (Prince)MonarchyShahanshah IIIZakaridArmenianOrthodox
Amberd​
Principality (Prince)MonarchyKurd IIVachutianArmenianMiyaphysite
Vayots Dzor​
Principality (Prince)MonarchyHasan IIProshyanArmenianMiaphysite
Syunik​
Melikate (Melik)MonarchyBurtelOrbelianArmenianMiaphysite
Shaki​
Ulus (Ulus Beg)HordeSidi AhmedArlatOiratSunni
Tsakhur​
----LezginOrthodox
Khachen​
Melikate (Melik)MonarchyJalal IIHasan-JalalyanArmenianMiaphysite
Tsar​
Melikate (Melik)MonarchyGrigor IIDopyanArmenianMiaphysite
Herher​
Melikate (Melik)Monarchy-ShahurnetsiArmenianMiaphysite
HytukPrincipality (Prince)Monarchy/Tribe?-GhetikCircassianOrthodox
CopaPrincipality (Prince)Monarchy/Tribe?--CircassianOrthodox
SobayPrincipality (Prince)Monarchy/Tribe?-HatukayCircassianOrthodox
KipikePrincipality (Prince)Monarchy/Tribe?-ChupakoCircassianOrthodox
KremukPrincipality (Prince)Monarchy/Tribe?-TemirgoyCircassianOrthodox
KabardaPrincipality (Prince)Monarchy/Tribe?-KabardianCircassianOrthodox
Digor---AcharkatagAlanOrthodox
Durdzuketia----Nakh-
Avaria----Avar-
Simsir----Nakh-
TarkiShamkhalate (Shamkhal)---Kumyk-
Kaitag Utsmiate----Dargin-
Tabasara----Lezgin-
Zirikhgeran----Lezgin-
Kurakh----Lezgin-
LahijanHokemaMonarchy-NaservandGilakSunni
RanekouhHokemaMonarchy-NaservandGilakSunni
FumanHokemaMonarchy-EshaqvandGilakSunni
RashtHokemaMonarchy--GilakSunni
TulamHokemaMonarchy--GilakShiite
Hisn KayfaEmirate (Emir)MonarchyGhazi Muhammad ibn Abi BakrAyyubid-Sunni
Dilmacids------
ArtuqidsBeylik (Bey)TribeAs-Salih Shams al-Din MahmūdArtukogullariSunni-
KhorsidiAtabegate (Atabeg)MonarchyŠoǰāʿ-al-dīn MoḥammadKhorsidiLur-
HazaraspidsAtabegate (Atabeg)MonarchyRokn-al-dīn Yūsofšāh IIHazaraspidLur-
Sarbadars-RepublicAbd al-Razzaq ibn Fazlullah-PersianShiite
FarsMalikate (Malik)MonarchyJalāl-al-Din Masʿud ŠāhInjuidPersianSunni
Khunj​
------
ShabankaraTribeTribeArdashirShabankaraiPersianSunni
UghanidsTribeHorde-UghanidMongolTengri
JurmanidsTribeHorde-JurmanidMongolTengri
LarMalikate (Malik)Monarchy-MiladidAchomiSunni
YazdMalikate (Malik)MonarchyMobārez-al-DinMuzaffaridPersianSunni
KermanMalikate (Malik)MonarchyQutb al-DinNikruziPersianSunni
Golden HordeKhanate (Khan)HordeÖzbegBorjigidMongolSunni
Khwarazm​
--Qutluq TemürSufidMongolTengri
SistanMalikate (Malik)MonarchyQutb al-Din MuhammadMihrabanidPersianSunni
KharanTribeTribe-NahruiBalochSunni
MakranMalikate (Malik)TribeGhiyāth al-Dīn DīnārHotBalochSunni
Bampur​
TribeTribe-Rind-LashariBalochSunni
Buleda​
TribeTribe-BuledaiBalochSunni
Kolwa​
TribeTribe-BizenjoBalochSunni
Samma------
Khuzdar​
TribeTribe-JatSindhiSunni
Kalat​
TribeTribe-MirwariBrahuiSunni
HormuzMalikate (Malik)MonarchyQutb al-Din TahamtanDeramkuPersianSunni
Fal​
-Monarchy-FaliPersian-
Jask​
-Monarchy----
Click to expand...


Development

I feel like the area circled in white below (Khorasan and Transoxiana) should have more development, especially when compared to Arabia and Kurdistan.

Dev.png


It has been 80+ years since the Mongol invasion, and many of the previous Ilkhans initiated several reconstruction, repopulation and agricultural projects to revitalize the devastated regions, having imported labour from across the Mongol empire, such as Khitans/Chinese.

"Nomads as Agents of Cultural Change - The Mongols and their Eurasian Predecessors" (2014):

1743887019985.png



Court Languages

The court language of the Qasarids, Jalayirids and Hüleguids should definitely be Mongolian. It continued as a language of the ruling elite (Mongols) and as a liturgical language for the Tengri, while Persian was the bureaucratic language (liturgical?).


Raw Materials

Astarabad was known for silk production at this time

"Cambridge History of Turkey Volume 1" (2010):

1743887210867.png


"Cambridge History of Iran Volume 6" (1986):

1743887235166.png


 
Last edited:
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SuperLexxe said:

The Atlas of Persia & the Caucasus in 1337


Here is my attempt at detailed feedback on the review, mostly using information from posts in the first Persia & Caucasus thread.


Maps

The following maps should give the most accurate picture of what the countries and borders of this region are. Very easy to compare to the in-game map using the arrow keys.

The Reviewed Map compared to the Community Feedback Map:
(I've kept the independent colours, so that the countries' borders can be seen easier. You can find vassal relations in the table further below)

View attachment 1277185 View attachment 1277186

Locations:

View attachment 1277187


Zoomed in Maps:

Here you can see the countries in close-ups, labeled with their names.

Caucasus:

View attachment 1277189 View attachment 1277190

South-West:

View attachment 1277191 View attachment 1277192

South-East:

View attachment 1277193 View attachment 1277194

Khorasan:

View attachment 1277195 View attachment 1277196


Country Information:

Here are some of the compiled countries, with their titles, types, rulers, dynasties, their rulers' cultures and religions. Many of them are empty due to lack of information, and some I've filled with guesswork.

NOTE: Cultures & Religions are those of the RULER, not necessarily the population

NOTE: Vassal relations are represented by indentations.










Development

I feel like the area circled in white (Khorasan and Transoxiana) should have more development, especially when compared to Arabia and Kurdistan.

View attachment 1277215

It has been 80+ years since the Mongol invasion, and many of the previous Ilkhans initiated several reconstruction, repopulation and agricultural projects to revitalize the devastated regions, having imported labour from across the Mongol empire, such as Khitans/Chinese.

"Nomads as Agents of Cultural Change - The Mongols and their Eurasian Predecessors" (2014):

View attachment 1277209


Court Languages

The court language of the Qasarids, Jalayirids and Hüleguids should definitely be Mongolian. It continued as a language of the ruling elite (Mongols) and as a liturgical language for the Tengri, while Persian was the bureaucratic language (liturgical).


Raw Materials

Astarabad was known for silk production at this time

"Cambridge History of Turkey Volume 1" (2010):

View attachment 1277221

"Cambridge History of Iran Volume 6" (1986):

View attachment 1277222

Click to expand...


Additionally, I believe that most of the Kurdish tribes under the Sutayids and the Jalayirids should be represented as tributaries, which would be more accurate to describe their current situation as.

 
Last edited:
SuperLexxe said:

Additionally, I believe that most of the Kurdish tribes under the Sutayids and the Jalayirids should be represented as tributaries, which would be more accurate to describe their current situation as.

Click to expand...
The best way that I would describe it is that it's more like... nominal suzerainty? The various Kurds did very much pick who they were aligning with in the struggle of power, but they weren't actually fighting on their behalf. More just letting them pass without issues and doing their best to avoid being attacked themselves.

And of course switching sides the moment it made sense for them to do so. It's not until, like, the Aq Qoyunlu and the Qara Qoyunlu that the Kurds are militarily involved in things but that's also because they actually stood to gain something through their participation.
 
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Naming:

The Qasarids (Gurgan) should be called the Qasarids, in line with the geneological nomenclature of the hordes, like the Jalayirids, Chobanids, Sutayids, Hüleguids, etc. These countries are not tied to any geographical context due to their chaotic circumstances.

HOWEVER, settled monarchies, such as the Muzaffarids, Injuids, Mihrabanids, etc, should be referred to by their base of power (Fars, Yazd, Sistan) etc. They were known by their fiefs. After all, we don't call France "the Capetids".

 
Last edited:
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SuperLexxe said:
HOWEVER, settled monarchies, such as the Muzaffarids, Injuids, Mihrabanids, etc, should be referred to by their base of power (Fars, Yazd, Sistan) etc. They were known by their fiefs. After all, we don't call France "the Capetids".

Click to expand...
Islamdomic polities were much less stable than those in Christiandom, and combined with the lack of inheritance through female lines makes dynastic naming much more appropriate for Muslims than Christians.
 
As long as the countries rename in the event of a dynasty change, it's fine. Otherwise it'll just be weird in the off-chance that the dynasty does, in fact, get changed.
 
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