Tinto Maps #18 Persia & Caucasus Feedback

[Wildrake]

Kurds weren't a majority in Hasakah in the 14th century. The significant presence of Kurds in this area can be attributed to 20th-century migration from Turkey due to oppressive policies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_immigration_into_Syria

 

[Ispil]

Small detail: the Sutayids should also be a steppe horde. If the Jalayirids are a steppe horde, the Sutayids are a steppe horde.

Also whatever event that spawns the Aq Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunlu should also spawn them as steppe hordes.

 

[SuperLexxe]

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The Atlas of Persia & the Caucasus in 1337

---

Here is my attempt at detailed feedback on the review, mostly using information from posts in the first Persia & Caucasus thread.

---

Maps

The following maps should give the most accurate picture of what the countries and borders of this region are. Very easy to compare to the in-game map using the arrow keys.

I've kept the independent colours, so that the countries' borders can be seen easier. You can find subject relations in the table further below.

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The Reviewed Map compared to the Community Feedback Map:

Locations:

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Zoomed in Maps:

Here you can see the countries in close-ups, labeled with their names.

Caucasus:

Edit: Khikhani location should be under Georgia, not Samstkhe / Kagizmao should be under Samstkhe

South-West:

South-East:

Khorasan:

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Country Information:

Here are some of the compiled countries, with their titles, types, rulers, dynasties, their rulers' cultures and religions. Many of them are empty due to lack of information, and some I've filled with guesswork.

NOTE: Cultures & Religions are those of the RULER, not necessarily the population

NOTE: Vassal relations are represented by indentations.

Jalayirid Faction

Country	Title (Ruler Title)	Type	Ruler	Dynasty	Culture	Religion
Jalayirids	Ulus (Ulus Beg)	Horde	Hasan Buzurg	Jalayirid	Mongol	Sunni
Shirvan​	Shahdom (Shirvanshah)	Monarchy	Kayqubad I	Kasranid	Adhari	-
Ispahbad​	Principality (Prince)	Monarchy	Badr al-dīn Mahmūd	Ispahbad	Talysh	-
Khalkhal​	Emirate (Emir)	Monarchy	-	-	Adhari	-
Artaz​	Principality (Prince)	Monarchy	-	Amatuni	Armenian	Catholic
Donboli​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Cemşid	Donboli	Kurdish	Yazidi
Ardalan​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	-	Ardalani	Kurdish	-
Kalhor​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	-	Kalhori	Kurdish	-
Rankali​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Jamal al-Din Talan	Rankali	Kurdish	-
Kelali​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	-	Kelali	Kurdish	-
Hasnuya​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	-	Hasnuya	Kurdish	-
Zebari​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Shabab al-Din	Zebari	Kurdish	-
Saqiyya​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Shuja al-Din Abu Bakr Ramaki	Saqiyya	Kurdish	-
Kurani​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Muhammed	Kurani	Kurdish	-
Hadhur​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Taj al-Din	Hadhuri	Kurdish	-
Kartawi​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Abu Bakr	Kartawi	Kurdish	-
Sabuli​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Burek	Sabuli	Kurdish	-
Hasbani​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Abdallah	Hasbani	Kurdish	-
Merkewan​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	-	Merkewani	Kurdish	-
Eretnids​	Emirate (Emir)	Horde	Ala al-Din Eretna	Eretnid	Uyghur	Sunni
Sutayids​	Ulus (Ulus Beg)	Horde	Hajji Taghay	Sutayid	Mongol	Sunni
Sasun​	Principality (Prince)	Monarchy	-	Holo	Armenian	-
Rshtunik​	Principality (Prince)	Monarchy	-	Artsruni	Armenian	-
Cemisgezek​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	-	Malkishi	Kurdish	-
Çapakçur​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Shap	Suwaydid	Kurdish	-
Egil​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Isa	Bulduqani	Kurdish	-
Hazro​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	-	Zraqi	Kurdish	-
Zirqan​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Zeydo	Zerraki	Kurdish	-
Jolemark​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	-	Jolemarki	Kurdish	-
Bohtan​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Izz al-Din	Bohtani	Kurdish	Yazidi
Mazenjani​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Izz al-Din	Mazenjani	Kurdish	-
Zerzari​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Najm al-Din	Zerzari	Kurdish	-
Sohri​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Hosam	Sohri	Kurdish	-
Dasni​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Ala al-Din Kurek ibn Ibrahim	Dasni	Kurdish	Yazidi
Bitlis​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Dia' al-Din	Ruzagi	Kurdish	-
Mus​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	Shams al-Din	Ruzagi	Kurdish	-
Hizan​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	-	-	Kurdish	-

Borjigid Faction

Country	Title (Ruler Title)	Type	Ruler	Dynasty	Culture	Religion
Qasarids	Ilkhanate (Ilkhan)	Horde	Togha Temür	Borjigid	Mongol	-
Hamadan​	Emirate (Emir)	Monarchy	Mahmud	Qutlugh	Persian	Sunni
Qom​	Emirate	Monarchy	Tal al-Din Ali	Asil	Persian	Sunni
Kashan​	Emirate (Emir)	Monarchy	Latif Allah	Kashi	Persian	Sunni
Astarabad​	Emirate (Emir)	Monarchy	Shaykh Ali	Hindu	Mazanderani	Shiite
Jauni Qurban​	Ulus (Ulus Beg)	Horde	Arghun Shah	Arghunid	Oirat	Sunni
Esfarayen​	Emirate (Emir)	Monarchy	Shaykh Ali	Qushji	Khorasani	Sunni
Sabzevar​	Emirate (Emir)	Monarchy	Ala al-Din Muhammad	Farayumadi	Khorasani	Sunni
Kuhistan​	Emirate (Emir)	Monarchy	Abd-Allah	Mulai	Persian	Sunni
Tabaristan​	Malikate (Malik)	Monarchy	Fakhr al-Dawla Hasan II	Bavandid	Mazanderani	Shiite
Herat​	Malikate (Malik)	Monarchy	Mu'izz-uddin Husayn	Kartid	Persian	Sunni
Merv​	Emirate (Emir)	Tribe	-	Sanjari	Turkmen	Sunni
Khaf​	Emirate (Emir)	Monarchy	-	Khwafi	Persian	Sunni
Rostamdar	Ostan (Ostandar)	Monarchy	Jalal al-Dawla Iskandar II	Baduspanid	Mazanderani	Shiite
Hüleguids	Ilkhanate (Ilkhan)	Horde	Musa	Borjigid	Mongol	Sunni
Hillah​	Sharifate (Sharif)	Monarchy	Ahmad Rumaytha	Qatadid	Hijazi	Zaydi

Chobanid Faction

Country	Title (Ruler Title)	Type	Ruler	Dynasty	Culture	Religion
Chobanids	Ulus (Ulus Beg)	Horde	Hasan Kuchak	Chobanid	Mongol	Tengri

Non-Aligned Countries

Country	Title (Ruler Title)	Type	Ruler	Dynasty	Culture	Religion
Georgia	Samepo (Mepe)	Monarchy	Giorgi V	Bagrationi	Georgian	Orthodox
Alastani​	Saeristavo (Eristavi)	Monarchy	Andronicus	Bagrationi	Georgian	Orthodox
Samstkhe​	Saeristavo (Eristavi)	Monarchy	Qvarqvare	Jaqeli	Georgian	Orthodox
Ksani​	Saeristavo (Eristavi)	Monarchy	Virshel II	Bibiluri	Georgian	Orthodox
Ani​	Principality (Prince)	Monarchy	Shahanshah III	Zakarid	Armenian	Orthodox
Amberd​	Principality (Prince)	Monarchy	Kurd II	Vachutian	Armenian	Miyaphysite
Vayots Dzor​	Principality (Prince)	Monarchy	Hasan II	Proshyan	Armenian	Miaphysite
Syunik​	Melikate (Melik)	Monarchy	Burtel	Orbelian	Armenian	Miaphysite
Shaki​	Ulus (Ulus Beg)	Horde	Sidi Ahmed	Arlat	Oirat	Sunni
Tsakhur​	Shykhyl (Aksakal)	Tribe	-	-	Lezgin	Orthodox
Khachen​	Melikate (Melik)	Monarchy	Jalal II	Hasan-Jalalyan	Armenian	Miaphysite
Tsar​	Melikate (Melik)	Monarchy	Grigor II	Dopyan	Armenian	Miaphysite
Herher​	Melikate (Melik)	Monarchy	-	Shahurnetsi	Armenian	Miaphysite
Hytuk	Principality (Prince)	Monarchy/Tribe?	-	Ghetik	Circassian	Orthodox
Copa	Principality (Prince)	Monarchy/Tribe?	-	-	Circassian	Orthodox
Sobay	Principality (Prince)	Monarchy/Tribe?	-	Hatukay	Circassian	Orthodox
Kipike	Principality (Prince)	Monarchy/Tribe?	-	Chupako	Circassian	Orthodox
Kremuk	Principality (Prince)	Monarchy/Tribe?	-	Temirgoy	Circassian	Orthodox
Kabarda	Principality (Prince)	Monarchy/Tribe?	-	Kabardian	Circassian	Orthodox
Digor	Nutsaldom (Nutsal)	Monarchy/Tribe?	-	Acharkatag	Alan	Orthodox
Durdzuketia	-	-	-	-	Nakh	-
Avaria	-	-	-	-	Avar	-
Simsir	-	-	-	-	Nakh	-
Tarki	Shamkhalate (Shamkhal)	-	-	-	Kumyk	-
Kaitag Utsmiate	Shykhyl (Aksakal)	Tribe	-	-	Dargin	-
Tabasara	Shykhyl (Aksakal)	Tribe	-	-	Lezgin	-
Zirikhgeran	Shykhyl (Aksakal)	Tribe	-	-	Lezgin	-
Kurakh	Shykhyl (Aksakal)	Tribe	-	-	Lezgin	-
Lahijan	Hokema	Monarchy	-	Naservand	Gilak	Sunni
Ranekouh	Hokema	Monarchy	-	Naservand	Gilak	Sunni
Fuman	Hokema	Monarchy	-	Eshaqvand	Gilak	Sunni
Rasht	Hokema	Monarchy	-	-	Gilak	Sunni
Tulam	Hokema	Monarchy	-	-	Gilak	Shiite
Hisn Kayfa	Emirate (Emir)	Monarchy	Ghazi Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr	Ayyubid	-	Sunni
Dilmacids	-	-	-	-	-	-
Artuqids	Beylik (Bey)	Tribe	As-Salih Shams al-Din Mahmūd	Artukogullari	Sunni	-
Khorsidi	Atabegate (Atabeg)	Monarchy	Šoǰāʿ-al-dīn Moḥammad	Khorsidi	Lur	-
Hazaraspids	Atabegate (Atabeg)	Monarchy	Rokn-al-dīn Yūsofšāh II	Hazaraspid	Lur	-
Sarbadars	-	Republic	Abd al-Razzaq ibn Fazlullah	-	Persian	Shiite
Fars	Malikate (Malik)	Monarchy	Jalāl-al-Din Masʿud Šāh	Injuid	Persian	Sunni
Khunj​	-	-	-	-	-	-
Shabankara	-	Tribe	Ardashir	Shabankarai	Persian	Sunni
Ughanids	-	Horde	-	Ughanid	Mongol	Tengri
Jurmanids	-	Horde	-	Jurmanid	Mongol	Tengri
Lar	Malikate (Malik)	Monarchy	-	Miladid	Achomi	Sunni
Yazd	Malikate (Malik)	Monarchy	Mobārez-al-Din	Muzaffarid	Persian	Sunni
Kerman	Malikate (Malik)	Monarchy	Qutb al-Din	Nikruzi	Persian	Sunni
Golden Horde	Khanate (Khan)	Horde	Özbeg	Borjigid	Mongol	Sunni
Khwarazm​	-	-	Qutluq Temür	Sufid	Mongol	Tengri
Sistan	Malikate (Malik)	Monarchy	Qutb al-Din Muhammad	Mihrabanid	Persian	Sunni
Kharan	Tribe	Tribe	-	Nahrui	Baloch	Sunni
Makran	Malikate (Malik)	Tribe	Ghiyāth al-Dīn Dīnār	Hot	Baloch	Sunni
Bampur​	Tribe	Tribe	-	Rind-Lashari	Baloch	Sunni
Buleda​	Tribe	Tribe	-	Buledai	Baloch	Sunni
Kolwa​	Tribe	Tribe	-	Bizenjo	Baloch	Sunni
Samma	-	-	-	-	-	-
Khuzdar​	Tribe	Tribe	-	Jat	Sindhi	Sunni
Kalat​	Tribe	Tribe	-	Mirwari	Brahui	Sunni
Hormuz	Malikate (Malik)	Monarchy	Qutb al-Din Tahamtan	Deramku	Persian	Sunni
Fal​	-	Monarchy	-	Fali	Persian	-
Jask​	-	Monarchy	-	-	-	-

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Development

I feel like the area circled in white below (Khorasan and Transoxiana) should have more development, especially when compared to Arabia and Kurdistan.

It has been 80+ years since the Mongol invasion, and many of the previous Ilkhans initiated several reconstruction, repopulation and agricultural projects to revitalize the devastated regions, having imported labour from across the Mongol empire, such as Khitans/Chinese.

"Nomads as Agents of Cultural Change - The Mongols and their Eurasian Predecessors" (2014):

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Court Languages

The court language of the Qasarids, Jalayirids and Hüleguids should definitely be Mongolian. It continued as a language of the ruling elite (Mongols) and as a liturgical language for the Tengri, while Persian was the bureaucratic language (liturgical?).

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Raw Materials

Astarabad was known for silk production at this time

"Cambridge History of Turkey Volume 1" (2010):

"Cambridge History of Iran Volume 6" (1986):

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[SuperLexxe]

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The Atlas of Persia & the Caucasus in 1337

---

Here is my attempt at detailed feedback on the review, mostly using information from posts in the first Persia & Caucasus thread.

---

Maps

The following maps should give the most accurate picture of what the countries and borders of this region are. Very easy to compare to the in-game map using the arrow keys.

The Reviewed Map compared to the Community Feedback Map:
(I've kept the independent colours, so that the countries' borders can be seen easier. You can find vassal relations in the table further below)

View attachment 1277185 View attachment 1277186

Locations:

View attachment 1277187

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Zoomed in Maps:

Here you can see the countries in close-ups, labeled with their names.

Caucasus:

View attachment 1277189 View attachment 1277190

South-West:

View attachment 1277191 View attachment 1277192

South-East:

View attachment 1277193 View attachment 1277194

Khorasan:

View attachment 1277195 View attachment 1277196

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Country Information:

Here are some of the compiled countries, with their titles, types, rulers, dynasties, their rulers' cultures and religions. Many of them are empty due to lack of information, and some I've filled with guesswork.

NOTE: Cultures & Religions are those of the RULER, not necessarily the population

NOTE: Vassal relations are represented by indentations.

---

Development

I feel like the area circled in white (Khorasan and Transoxiana) should have more development, especially when compared to Arabia and Kurdistan.

View attachment 1277215

It has been 80+ years since the Mongol invasion, and many of the previous Ilkhans initiated several reconstruction, repopulation and agricultural projects to revitalize the devastated regions, having imported labour from across the Mongol empire, such as Khitans/Chinese.

"Nomads as Agents of Cultural Change - The Mongols and their Eurasian Predecessors" (2014):

View attachment 1277209

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Court Languages

The court language of the Qasarids, Jalayirids and Hüleguids should definitely be Mongolian. It continued as a language of the ruling elite (Mongols) and as a liturgical language for the Tengri, while Persian was the bureaucratic language (liturgical).

---

Raw Materials

Astarabad was known for silk production at this time

"Cambridge History of Turkey Volume 1" (2010):

View attachment 1277221

"Cambridge History of Iran Volume 6" (1986):

View attachment 1277222

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Additionally, I believe that most of the Kurdish tribes under the Sutayids and the Jalayirids should be represented as tributaries, which would be more accurate to describe their current situation as.

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[Ispil]

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Additionally, I believe that most of the Kurdish tribes under the Sutayids and the Jalayirids should be represented as tributaries, which would be more accurate to describe their current situation as.

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The best way that I would describe it is that it's more like... nominal suzerainty? The various Kurds did very much pick who they were aligning with in the struggle of power, but they weren't actually fighting on their behalf. More just letting them pass without issues and doing their best to avoid being attacked themselves.

And of course switching sides the moment it made sense for them to do so. It's not until, like, the Aq Qoyunlu and the Qara Qoyunlu that the Kurds are militarily involved in things but that's also because they actually stood to gain something through their participation.

 

[SuperLexxe]

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Naming:

The Qasarids (Gurgan) should be called the Qasarids, in line with the geneological nomenclature of the hordes, like the Jalayirids, Chobanids, Sutayids, Hüleguids, etc. These countries are not tied to any geographical context due to their chaotic circumstances.

HOWEVER, settled monarchies, such as the Muzaffarids, Injuids, Mihrabanids, etc, should be referred to by their base of power (Fars, Yazd, Sistan) etc. They were known by their fiefs. After all, we don't call France "the Capetids".

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[BeyondExpectation]

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HOWEVER, settled monarchies, such as the Muzaffarids, Injuids, Mihrabanids, etc, should be referred to by their base of power (Fars, Yazd, Sistan) etc. They were known by their fiefs. After all, we don't call France "the Capetids".

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Islamdomic polities were much less stable than those in Christiandom, and combined with the lack of inheritance through female lines makes dynastic naming much more appropriate for Muslims than Christians.

 

[Ispil]

As long as the countries rename in the event of a dynasty change, it's fine. Otherwise it'll just be weird in the off-chance that the dynasty does, in fact, get changed.

 

[SuperLexxe]

Islamdomic polities were much less stable than those in Christiandom, and combined with the lack of inheritance through female lines makes dynastic naming much more appropriate for Muslims than Christians.

True, but that doesn't look to be the philosophy used by the devs in this case. Note that many Islamic countries aren't named by their dynasties on the in-game map, but by their fiefs.

If we went by dynasties for Muslims, I would want that to apply to all Islamic countries, not just the ones which were picked off of Wikipedia, as seems to be the case here.

 

[Aramenian]

As for the city of Harpoot, it should be owned by Eretnids

Zayn al-Din Qaraja - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Palu should probably belong to Artukids

Palu, Elazığ - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ergani(Arghni) it seems to be ruled by some ruler who, it is unknown when, received this land.

Արկնի - Վիքիպեդիա

hy.wikipedia.org

Erzurum should also be under the rule of Eretnids
The city came under the rule of the Sutayids probably sometime in 1338, then the dulkadir attacked the Eretnids.

Erzurum - Vikipedi

tr.wikipedia.org

Şehir Tarihçesi

DEVLET HAVA MEYDANLARI İŞLETMESİ

www.dhmi.gov.tr

Archnet > Authority > Erzurum

Archnet is an accessible resource for architecture, urbanism, environmental and landscape design, visual culture, and conservation related to the Muslim world.

www.archnet.org

Sulayman Khan - Viquipèdia, l'enciclopèdia lliure

ca.wikipedia.org

Diyarbakr​

Ali Padshah died in 1336 so I don't know who should have ruled Diyarbakr.

Musa (Ilkhanid dynasty) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Amed - Viquipèdia, l'enciclopèdia lliure

ca.wikipedia.org

Sutay - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SuperLexxe]

As for the city of Harpoot, it should be owned by Eretnids

Zayn al-Din Qaraja - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 1277421

Palu should probably belong to Artukids
View attachment 1277424
View attachment 1277428

Palu, Elazığ - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ergani(Arghni) it seems to be ruled by some ruler who, it is unknown when, received this land.
View attachment 1277432

Արկնի - Վիքիպեդիա

hy.wikipedia.org

Erzurum should also be under the rule of Eretnids
The city came under the rule of the Sutayids probably sometime in 1338, then the dulkadir attacked the Eretnids.

Erzurum - Vikipedi

tr.wikipedia.org

View attachment 1277435

Sulayman Khan - Viquipèdia, l'enciclopèdia lliure

ca.wikipedia.org

View attachment 1277441
View attachment 1277436

Diyarbakr​

Ali Padshah died in 1336 so I don't know who should have ruled Diyarbakr.
View attachment 1277446

Musa (Ilkhanid dynasty) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Amed - Viquipèdia, l'enciclopèdia lliure

ca.wikipedia.org

View attachment 1277437
View attachment 1277438

Sutay - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ali Padshah was given the governorship of Diyarbakir, and he was an Oirat, and the region was part of the Oirat pastures.

But before that, Diyarbakir was governed by the Sutayids. It was kind of a slap in the face of the Sutayids when Ali Padshah was given Diyarbakir, and it was the Sutayids who requested Hasan Buzurg to drive out Ali Padshah when he assasinated Ilkhan Arpa Ke'un and installed his own puppet, Musa Khan.

So when Hasan Buzurg Jalayirid gathered an army in Anatolia, which he was the viceroy of, and defeated Ali Padshah in battle in 1336, the Sutayids took their governorship over Diyarbakir back.

 

[Ispil]

As for Palu and Harput and Ergani, I'm pretty sure that's in reference to a branch of the Artuqids long deposed. We know the Aq Qoyunlu wind up in control of those areas by 1389, but we know nothing of who controlled them in the interim. It certainly wasn't the Artuqids, though, because that would show up in the Ayyubid chronicles of their perennial rivalry.

As for the mysterious "Yusuf", that's almost certainly a reference to Qara Yusuf.

 

[Aramenian]

As for Palu and Harput and Ergani, I'm pretty sure that's in reference to a branch of the Artuqids long deposed. We know the Aq Qoyunlu wind up in control of those areas by 1389, but we know nothing of who controlled them in the interim. It certainly wasn't the Artuqids, though, because that would show up in the Ayyubid chronicles of their perennial rivalry.

As for the mysterious "Yusuf", that's almost certainly a reference to Qara Yusuf.

Shouldn't Harput be Eretnid's property?

 

[Ispil]

Shouldn't Harput be Eretnid's property?
View attachment 1277564

I suggested this last year.

So, doing some review, my conclusions are:

• Harput and Keban should belong to Eretna (conquered by the Dulkadirids in 1338)
• Kuzucan, Pertek, Palu, and Adakli should also belong to Eretna
• Artuqids should own the location of Diyarbakir (Amid), Ergani, and Cermik (maybe also Sivrace?)
• Siverek should belong to the Dulkadirids
• Çemişgezek should belong to a Kurdish principality, the Malkishi, vassals of Eretna
• Mayyafaraqin should be owned by a Kurdish principality, the Sulaymani, which should also own Hazro; vassals to the Sutayids
• Sivrace and Egil should be under the Bulduqani, a Kurdish principality vassals to the Sutayids (maybe not Sivrace?)
• Hani, Kulp, and Sason should belong to the Zraqi, a Kurdish principality vassals to the Sutayids
• Seems that Bingol and Genc should belong to the Suveydis? Likely also vassals to the Sutayids

So, basically pretty much all of that western territory belonging to the Sutayids should just... not belong to the Sutayids but instead a smattering of principalities. Eventually the locations of Palu, Adakli, and Ergani wind up under the Aq Qoyunlu which expand from there through this region (also I suppose Cermik and Sivrace to have it actually be contiguous; this could also be adjusted by adjusting the border of Ergani as a location).

Also I don't have specifics, but I feel that the Artuqids have too much control under the current map. I feel like they should not own locations south or east of Mardin, but instead that there were likely yet more Kurdish principalities in those territories that would be (at least nominally) their vassals if not just completely independent. Like, they should be much weaker than how they appear under this current map, given that the Ayyubids were their perennial rivals. I'm inclined to say that their western territories should belong to the Mamluks, for instance (Viransehir, Ras al-Ayn, Al-Hasakah, Araban, whatever that location is south of Araban), and their eastern territories semi-autonomous Kurdish principalities (because you can never have too many semi-autonomous Kurdish principalities).

Basically the entire region of Diyarbakir should be a smattering of small states with some nominal subordinate status to a larger power in the region until those powers devolve (the Sutayids aren't sticking around for long, Eretna's power doesn't last much longer, and neither the Artuqids nor Ayyubids manage to get a leg up on the other). Which is how the Qara Qoyunlu can move through this territory freely and ultimately seize Mosul, and how the Aq Qoyunlu can attain a smattering of locations and use that to then consolidate power and eventually control the whole region.

So I'm operating on the assumption that the devs have contradicting evidence on this point, and will defer to their choice on the matter.

Also all of this discussion is about Anatolia, not Persia.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

I would like to suggest a mechanic for the country of Alastani:

The ruling Prince in 1337, Andronicus, had 2 children, and upon his death in 1354, apparently his principality was split - the elder Giorgi receiving land in Somkhiti and the capital of Alastani in Trialeti (in-game the location of Akhalkalaki), along with the actual title of "Alastaneli", while the younger Davit received minor land in Georgia proper.

Hence, I think the succession law of the country should be partition — in CK3 terms, high partition, where ~70% of the land goes to the primary heir.

As for the country of Amberd, I think all the information we've found points to them buying land from the Alastanelis and creating their own lordship under them some time before 1337.

Source: Provincial Kings in 14th-15th Century Georgia

 

[Tahami Tsunami]

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Naming:

The Qasarids (Gurgan) should be called the Qasarids, in line with the geneological nomenclature of the hordes, like the Jalayirids, Chobanids, Sutayids, Hüleguids, etc. These countries are not tied to any geographical context due to their chaotic circumstances.

HOWEVER, settled monarchies, such as the Muzaffarids, Injuids, Mihrabanids, etc, should be referred to by their base of power (Fars, Yazd, Sistan) etc. They were known by their fiefs. After all, we don't call France "the Capetids".

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As long as the countries rename in the event of a dynasty change, it's fine. Otherwise it'll just be weird in the off-chance that the dynasty does, in fact, get changed.

I couldn't agree more! Especially since, as Johan said in Tinto Talks #15, the country continues even after the dynasty changes.

 

[matfer13]

As long as the countries rename in the event of a dynasty change, it's fine. Otherwise it'll just be weird in the off-chance that the dynasty does, in fact, get changed.

So the Ottomans should change their name if they change dynasty? That would be a shame also what would happen if two muslim tags came under rule of the same dynasty?, imo countries named after dynasties should always have their ruling dynasty named after them, so if the Ottoman line goes extinct then newly generated one should still be called the Ottomans and the only exption for thiz rule should be if a PU is formed

 

[matfer13]

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Naming:

HOWEVER, settled monarchies, such as the Muzaffarids, Injuids, Mihrabanids, etc, should be referred to by their base of power (Fars, Yazd, Sistan) etc. They were known by their fiefs. After all, we don't call France "the Capetids".

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What about the Anatolian beyliks? Should the Ottomans be called Bursa?

 

[Ispil]

So the Ottomans should change their name if they change dynasty? That would be a shame also what would happen if two muslim tags came under rule of the same dynasty?, imo countries named after dynasties should always have their ruling dynasty named after them, so if the Ottoman line goes extinct then newly generated one should still be called the Ottomans and the only exption for thiz rule should be if a PU is formed

It would be very odd to me to have the Ottomans ruled by, say, a Karasi and still just be referred to as the "Ottomans". I'd sooner just see several different "Ottomans" on the map.

 

[matfer13]

It would be very odd to me to have the Ottomans ruled by, say, a Karasi and still just be referred to as the "Ottomans". I'd sooner just see several different "Ottomans" on the map.

It would be too confusing and go against the "purpose" of the tag