Tinto Maps #18 Persia & Caucasus Feedback

[L1nk48]

Regarding paganism, I would like to provide you with sources describing the deities of the Lezgian peoples, though these sources are in Russian:

Алпанские языки » Статьи » Культура » Теонимы в лезгинской лексике

Доисламская духовная культура лезгин

Доисламская духовная культура лезгин

flnka.ru

As for the symbols that could be used on flags:
Animals: Eagles, lions, and the East Caucasian tur (Capra cylindricornis); Celestial bodies: Sun, star(s), and crescent; Religious symbols; Human figures; Weapons; Geographic relief.
In the attached images, I’ve provided examples of modern flags and local symbolism.

 

[L1nk48]

Since the information about this time frame is so scarce (due to Timur's shenanigans), we don't actually know who the wife of Giorgi V is.

According to the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy:

"King Giorgi’s wife could have been either: (1) the daughter of Mikhael Megas Komnenos (emperor in Trebizond 1343-1349), suggesting that the marriage would probably have taken place only after Mikhael returned to Trebizond from Constantinople in [1341], meaning that she could not have been the mother of King Davit IX; or (2) an unrecorded daughter of Emperor Mikhael IX, who would have been born in the late 13th/early 14th century (and so could have been Davit’s mother) and was ignored by Byzantine sources.

Hence, it's up to the developers to decide which queen to choose. It's quite an important decision, by the way - giving Georgia a scripted royal marriage with either Byzantium or Trebizond will definitely impact the way the game plays out.

So, historicity is one thing, but gameplay must also be considered.

I lean toward the idea that George V was married to a daughter of the Byzantine emperor, as this seems to be the most plausible option for the mother of David IX, as you mentioned. I would suggest representing this marriage through an event, where the player or AI can choose who his wife was — or alternatively, have her assigned randomly.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

Shirvan/Azerbaijan Feedback

As nobody has written much about the sub-region, I'll do it.


1. Political Map

As I've written already, Saarishiano/Shaki should control all of the province of Shaki, instead of Shirvan (see "7. Religion" for more detail).

Shirvan should probably remain in the Ilkhanate, as a subject of the Jalayirid faction. As far as I can tell, they shouldn't be independent in 1337.

2. Country Ranks

Shirvan should be a duchy-rank realm.

In Persian tradition, many regional rulers (even during Parthian times) ruled territories autonomously from the Shahanshah, claiming titles such as "Arranshah", "Tabaristanshah", etc. but weren't "kings" per se. In many ways, this system of nomenclature is a vestige of the even older Achaemenid system of Satraps. Even in the absence of a Shahanshah (or later, a Caliph), these polities only claimed to hold their power through greater rulers. Interestingly enough, most scholars believe that the name Shirvan is a corruption of the Old Persian Shahrbān, meaning governor.

And, as said previously, Saarishiano/Shaki should also be a duchy-rank realm, as a notable easternmost march of the kingdom of Georgia.

3. Locations

The location distribution and density are fine, but what I find odd is that there's a location called "Shirvān" in the northern part of the country, even though the toponym wasn't relegated to just 1 location. On top of that, the region where the name Shirvan was used wasn't even there. Shirvan, as defined in the middle ages, to quote Abbasgulu Bakikhanov, was such:

"The country of Shirvan to the east borders on the Caspian Sea, and to the south on the river Kur, which separates it from the provinces of Moghan and Armenia".

The western border moved westward with time, with the displacement of native Georgians and Armenians.

4. Provinces

Again, the province of Shirvan being north of the Caucasus is very odd. I suggest renaming the "Baku" province to "Shirvan", and "Shirvan" to "Derbent" (or whichever localisation you prefer).

Unrelated, but the province of "Kachen" seems to be misspelled.

5. Areas

As @Aramenian has already said, the province of "Muğan" should probably be in the "Azarbāyjān" area, considering historical, political, and geographical definitions.

Again, unrelated, but "Armenian Highlands" should also be merged with "Armenia", among other things.

6. Cultures

Armenians are vastly overrepresented in Arran, especially in the Ganja location. In 1337, Turco-Mongols inhabited that province, due to its very suitable terrain for pasture.

Lezgins hadn't yet migrated to the location of "Qakh" in 1337 (the process known as Lekianoba would only begin in the 18th century). I believe Georgians should be the majority in the location.

If the Lezgins do represent the former Caucasian Albanians, the Udins, then they should be majorities in the locations of "Vartashen", "Qəbələ", and "Göyçay" in the province of Shaki, and in "Quba", "Şabran", and "Shirvān" in the province of Shirvan.

The Adharis, subsequently known as Tats, in this regard, are quite overrepresented.

7. Religion

As said above, Armenian Apostolic Christians are overrepresented in the province of Arran.

As Shirvan was on the periphery of the Islamic world, the "20% rule" with regards to Zoroastrians actually makes a lot of sense. From personal experience, I've noticed that even particularly religious Shia Azeris to this day celebrate Nowruz.

Orthodox Christians are underrepresented in the province of Shaki, which only became Islamised after the genocidal invasions of the region by Shah Abbas in the 16th-17th centuries.

His policy of resettling entire communities deep into Iran, and in their place settling loyal Qizilbashes was highly effective at shifting the demographics of the eastern Caucasus.

Hence, I think Christian pops should be more numerous than Muslim ones, mostly in the western part of the province of Shaki.

According to Donald Rayfield in "Edge of Empires", this was precisely the reason why western Shirvan was directly annexed into the kingdom of Georgia by Demetrius I, while the rest was left as a vassal state:

"In 1129–30 Shirvan was split into two, the border being the Tetri Tsqali (Aksu) river: the northwest, and partly Christian half, was incorporated into Georgia, while Manuchehr was recognized as the emir of the eastern half, his independence limited by an obligation to pay taxes and to supply Demetre in wartime with ‘as many thousands of men as needed’."

According to the "Historical Atlas of Georgia":

"In 1155, monarchy was restored in Sharvan. The Sharvanshah became a vassal of the king (Muskhelishvili 1982: 52-57). Sharvan was divided into two parts. The western, Christian part, which extended eastwards as far as the mountains of Shamakha and the Tetrits'q'ali (White river) (KC II: 207, 251 = Georg.Chron.: 339, 359), was directly incorporated into Georgia as the Saeristavo of Shaki (Vardan cap. 74). Sharvanshah's sovereignty extended only over the eastern, Muslim, part of the territory."





Soo... yeah.

 

[L1nk48]

Shirvan/Azerbaijan Feedback

As nobody has written much about the sub-region, I'll do it.


1. Political Map

View attachment 1280593

As I've written already, Saarishiano/Shaki should control all of the province of Shaki, instead of Shirvan (see "7. Religion" for more detail).

Shirvan should probably remain in the Ilkhanate, as a subject of the Jalayirid faction. As far as I can tell, they shouldn't be independent in 1337.

2. Country Ranks

View attachment 1280595

Shirvan should be a duchy-rank realm.

In Persian tradition, many regional rulers (even during Parthian times) ruled territories autonomously from the Shahanshah, claiming titles such as "Arranshah", "Tabaristanshah", etc. but weren't "kings" per se. In many ways, this system of nomenclature is a vestige of the even older Achaemenid system of Satraps. Even in the absence of a Shahanshah (or later, a Caliph), these polities only claimed to hold their power through greater rulers. Interestingly enough, most scholars believe that the name Shirvan is a corruption of the Old Persian Shahrbān, meaning governor.

And, as said previously, Saarishiano/Shaki should also be a duchy-rank realm, as a notable easternmost march of the kingdom of Georgia.

3. Locations

View attachment 1280598

The location distribution and density are fine, but what I find odd is that there's a location called "Shirvān" in the northern part of the country, even though the toponym wasn't relegated to just 1 location. On top of that, the region where the name Shirvan was used wasn't even there. Shirvan, as defined in the middle ages, to quote Abbasgulu Bakikhanov, was such:

"The country of Shirvan to the east borders on the Caspian Sea, and to the south on the river Kur, which separates it from the provinces of Moghan and Armenia".

The western border moved westward with time, with the displacement of native Georgians and Armenians.

4. Provinces

View attachment 1280599

Again, the province of Shirvan being north of the Caucasus is very odd. I suggest renaming the "Baku" province to "Shirvan", and "Shirvan" to "Derbent" (or whichever localisation you prefer).

Unrelated, but the province of "Kachen" seems to be misspelled.

5. Areas

View attachment 1280605

As @Aramenian has already said, the province of "Muğan" should probably be in the "Azarbāyjān" area, considering historical, political, and geographical definitions.

Again, unrelated, but "Armenian Highlands" should also be merged with "Armenia", among other things.

6. Cultures

View attachment 1280606

Armenians are vastly overrepresented in Arran, especially in the Ganja location. In 1337, Turco-Mongols inhabited that province, due to its very suitable terrain for pasture.

Lezgins hadn't yet migrated to the location of "Qakh" in 1337 (the process known as Lekianoba would only begin in the 18th century). I believe Georgians should be the majority in the location.

If the Lezgins do represent the former Caucasian Albanians, the Udins, then they should be majorities in the locations of "Vartashen", "Qəbələ", and "Göyçay" in the province of Shaki, and in "Quba", "Şabran", and "Shirvān" in the province of Shirvan.

The Adharis, subsequently known as Tats, in this regard, are quite overrepresented.

7. Religion

View attachment 1280608

As said above, Armenian Apostolic Christians are overrepresented in the province of Arran.

As Shirvan was on the periphery of the Islamic world, the "20% rule" with regards to Zoroastrians actually makes a lot of sense. From personal experience, I've noticed that even particularly religious Shia Azeris to this day celebrate Nowruz.

Orthodox Christians are underrepresented in the province of Shaki, which only became Islamised after the genocidal invasions of the region by Shah Abbas in the 16th-17th centuries.

His policy of resettling entire communities deep into Iran, and in their place settling loyal Qizilbashes was highly effective at shifting the demographics of the eastern Caucasus.

Hence, I think Christian pops should be more numerous than Muslim ones, mostly in the western part of the province of Shaki.

According to Donald Rayfield in "Edge of Empires", this was precisely the reason why western Shirvan was directly annexed into the kingdom of Georgia by Demetrius I, while the rest was left as a vassal state:

"In 1129–30 Shirvan was split into two, the border being the Tetri Tsqali (Aksu) river: the northwest, and partly Christian half, was incorporated into Georgia, while Manuchehr was recognized as the emir of the eastern half, his independence limited by an obligation to pay taxes and to supply Demetre in wartime with ‘as many thousands of men as needed’."

According to the "Historical Atlas of Georgia":

"In 1155, monarchy was restored in Sharvan. The Sharvanshah became a vassal of the king (Muskhelishvili 1982: 52-57). Sharvan was divided into two parts. The western, Christian part, which extended eastwards as far as the mountains of Shamakha and the Tetrits'q'ali (White river) (KC II: 207, 251 = Georg.Chron.: 339, 359), was directly incorporated into Georgia as the Saeristavo of Shaki (Vardan cap. 74). Sharvanshah's sovereignty extended only over the eastern, Muslim, part of the territory."


View attachment 1280612


Soo... yeah.

1. Shirvan was conquered by the Jalayirids in 1368 by Uways I, but in 1386, under the rule of Ahmad, most of their territory was lost in the war with Timur. Shirvan regained its independence in the early 1380s with the rise of the new Derbendi dynasty. Internal conflicts between the sons of Uways I also played a significant role in Shirvan’s path to independence. As I’ve mentioned before, Shirvan became a vassal of Timur voluntarily — in return, its lands were spared from plunder, the Derbendi dynasty remained in power, and Timur exercised limited control over the state’s foreign policy. In simple terms, Shirvan acted as a marcher state under Timur, and after his death in 1405, it regained full independence.


3. This province should be named Khizi, while the city of Shirvan itself is located either in Mahmudabad or Gobustan.


4. Either Quba or Derbent.


6. I don’t deny that Georgians made up the majority in Gakh (Kakhi), but part of the population still remained Aghwan. I draw this conclusion based on the church in the village of Kum (not to be confused with the Iranian city), which is considered to feature a blend of Aghwan and Georgian architecture. If you have a source that says otherwise, feel free to share it — I’d be happy to take a look.
As for the resettlements, as far as I know, the first began under Shah Ismail I (Khatai), though the source I found was rather questionable, and it mentioned that mostly Avars were resettled.
Regarding the Armenians in Arran, I’ll leave here a map made by Aramenian.

7.The Armenian Apostolic Christianity in the region likely includes, at least in part, the Aghwan Catholicosate of the Armenian Apostolic Church, which was officially abolished only in 1830.

 

[SuperLexxe]

1. Shirvan was conquered by the Jalayirids in 1368 by Uways I, but in 1386, under the rule of Ahmad, most of their territory was lost in the war with Timur. Shirvan regained its independence in the early 1380s with the rise of the new Derbendi dynasty. Internal conflicts between the sons of Uways I also played a significant role in Shirvan’s path to independence. As I’ve mentioned before, Shirvan became a vassal of Timur voluntarily — in return, its lands were spared from plunder, the Derbendi dynasty remained in power, and Timur exercised limited control over the state’s foreign policy. In simple terms, Shirvan acted as a marcher state under Timur, and after his death in 1405, it regained full independence.


3. This province should be named Khizi, while the city of Shirvan itself is located either in Mahmudabad or Gobustan.


4. Either Quba or Derbent.


6. I don’t deny that Georgians made up the majority in Gakh (Kakhi), but part of the population still remained Aghwan. I draw this conclusion based on the church in the village of Kum (not to be confused with the Iranian city), which is considered to feature a blend of Aghwan and Georgian architecture. If you have a source that says otherwise, feel free to share it — I’d be happy to take a look.
As for the resettlements, as far as I know, the first began under Shah Ismail I (Khatai), though the source I found was rather questionable, and it mentioned that mostly Avars were resettled.
Regarding the Armenians in Arran, I’ll leave here a map made by Aramenian.
View attachment 1280997
7.The Armenian Apostolic Christianity in the region likely includes, at least in part, the Aghwan Catholicosate of the Armenian Apostolic Church, which was officially abolished only in 1830.

One small note I would add, is that the lowlands of Shaki likely held a minggan or less worth of Oirats/Mongols, as Shaki was ruled by the Arlat clan under the Georgians at this time.

This is likely as the great fortification against the Golden Horde was situated there and had an Oirat/Mongol officer corps. Only way I could explain why Sidi Ahmed, an Oirat of the Arlat tribe would rule there.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

I don’t deny that Georgians made up the majority in Gakh (Kakhi), but part of the population still remained Aghwan. I draw this conclusion based on the church in the village of Kum (not to be confused with the Iranian city), which is considered to feature a blend of Aghwan and Georgian architecture.

I agree, there must've still been a minority of them in Kakhi.

But an issue has arisen, I feel.

We speak of Albanians, or Aghwans, and Lezgins, or Udins, as though they're the same people. Though I definitely agree that there is a real historical lineage between the ancient Albanians and modern Udins, can we define them as being the same group, even in 1337?

The ethnogenesis of modern Udins only really began a few hundred years ago, compared to the Lezgins of Dagestan, who can be definitively spoken of as a distinct cultural entity even 800 years ago.

Thus, I think Project Caesar should further divide the Lezgic peoples north and south of the Caucasus as Lezgins and Aghwans, respectively. The former should be Orthodox, Muslim, and pagan in a three-way split, while the latter should be overwhelmingly Orthodox.

What do you think?

 

[L1nk48]

I agree, there must've still been a minority of them in Kakhi.

But an issue has arisen, I feel.

We speak of Albanians, or Aghwans, and Lezgins, or Udins, as though they're the same people. Though I definitely agree that there is a real historical lineage between the ancient Albanians and modern Udins, can we define them as being the same group, even in 1337?

The ethnogenesis of modern Udins only really began a few hundred years ago, compared to the Lezgins of Dagestan, who can be definitively spoken of as a distinct cultural entity even 800 years ago.

Thus, I think Project Caesar should further divide the Lezgic peoples north and south of the Caucasus as Lezgins and Aghwans, respectively. The former should be Orthodox, Muslim, and pagan in a three-way split, while the latter should be overwhelmingly Orthodox.

What do you think?

My point of view is as follows: the Aghvans (Lezgins, Udis, and other peoples of this group) did not have enough time or resources to consolidate under a single ethnonym, unlike the Armenians and Georgians. According to Strabo, in antiquity the country was inhabited by 26 tribes who spoke different dialects of the same language. By the time of its decline, far fewer remained — some groups were assimilated by conquerors, while others united around more numerous tribes: for example, around the Legs in the north, the Utians (Udis) in the west, and the Aghvans in other parts of the country — with the exception of a few smaller peoples who have survived to this day.

Cultural and religious customs were almost identical throughout the entire region. Therefore, yes — I believe we can be conditionally considered one people, albeit with reservations regarding minor linguistic differences, especially during the period before heavy borrowing from other languages began.

In my opinion, this is comparable to how some Muslim Georgians today are referred to as Ingiloys. Personally, I believe they are still Georgians, just ones who practice Islam. If I’m mistaken in this comparison, I welcome correction.