Will it be possible to create an Assyrian state with the Nostarian religion and the Syriac culture as an Assyrian culture?
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The mountainous areas of Artsakh should have been under the control of the Armenians, but the lowland areas were certainly under the control of the Mongols and Turks.
Even on the maps below it can be seen that the areas around the Aras River had very few villages and were probably nominally under Armenian control.
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Карабах — Рувики: Интернет-энциклопедия
Карабах — изучайте подробную и систематизированную информацию в интернет-энциклопедии РУВИКИru.ruwiki.ru
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Մեծ Հայքի գավառների ցանկ - Վիքիպեդիա
hy.wikipedia.org
I wanted to write about this in detail, but I saw your comments, and you clearly succeeded in this. So let's hope that Paradox will notice your comments and present the Armenian region well and reveal its full potential. Moreover, they have good experience in this. About the inclusion of the Karabakh lowland in Khachen, of course, I agree. But now Khachen is simply deprived of its capital.
AREN
arenminasyan12.wordpress.com
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I know that, that's why I'm rooting for them. Because in the Holy Roman Empire there were many lordships that would have the status of counties now in the game.
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And my point is that juniper is neither regional (It's global), nor a luxury good (It's comparatively cheap) - and certainly not one on par with saffron, which it would have to be at least close to in order to be grouped into the same good. We're talking about grouping it with the spice that was nearly five or ten times the price by weight of the next closest spice pretty much consistently for the past thousand years, despite often being sold considerably closer to where it was harvested than any of the competing spices.
Low supply makes high demand, and there's very little supply for saffron, because it produces exactly three threads per flower which need to be hand-picked, is sterile and cannot propagate without human aid, and only grows in narrow regions of the world. Few if any other plants can boast such difficulty or low production, other than perhaps vanilla, which to this day cannot be naturally grown outside of its home region, has to be hand-polinated to produce vanilla, cannot meet even 10% of global demand and has to be substituted with artificial flavours, and yet natural vanilla is still the second most expensive spice in the modern day by a wide margin despite all of those difficulties and it really only started to fall behind supply in the 19th century. Before that, I highly doubt that anything qualifies to be grouped with saffron.
There should not be additional goods lumped into it to add supply and reduce demand, just as pepper shouldn't be lumped in with cloves and iron should not be in the same good as gold. All of those goods are valuable, but they have to be somewhat close in value and at least similar in purpose enough that production methods can work and they can logically be affecting demand for other goods that the Good represents, or else the game's supply and demand will not make sense.
If the devs cannot make the huge quantity of pepper (and other spices) in Asia so overwhelmingly worth finding for Portugal despite having a small amount in Africa, then there's something wrong. If they cannot make that amount eclipse the small amount in Africa to the point of making the latter globally irrelevant by the mid-late game, then something is wrong.
If having pepper on one continent not affect the price of pepper on another when both are being traded to the same location, just because they're grown on different continents, then I doubt we'll ever agree on this issue.
Clearly neither of us will be convincing the other anytime soon, either way, so I'll leave it here. I'd largely be reiterating my points from the last post anyway.
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@Pavía is Khwarazm and the surrounding area included in this thread or in the Steppes one later?
While I'm disappointed nothing was added on the eastern Caspian coast since we know people lived in that area and had interactions with the countries around them and several people made posts about it, I don't think it's ultimately Important for the gameplay to be missing those few locations. But there's feedback I gave in the Khwarazm area that I do think is actually meaningful and isn't in this map, I want to know if I should be reiterating that here or waiting for future feedback threads.
What I will reiterate here since I think it more likely is meant for this thread (though please redirect me if I'm wrong; it could also be the Chagatai one) is a border connection between the Samangan and Khamard locations (just southeast of Balkh). The road passing through here seems to have been a main route in the time period and is still visible today.
(Madar is at the very north of Khamard, where it's closest to Samangan)
Edit: Actually looking again you named Kurgancha as a new location so Khwarazm must be included in this one to at least some extent. In that case I very strongly implore you to add a corridor between Kurgancha or Kath (somewhere on the east of Khwarazm) to Jand (or nearby) in the northeast. There is significant textual evidence that such a corridor was regularly used not only for trade and travel but for full-scale armies, and at various points in history the rulers of Khwarazm also ruled Jand without also ruling the long connection around to the south, which could only have been feasibly done with such a connection. Most of my suggestions involve adding a few locations that ultimately aren't that important for gameplay, but this corridor would actually have a huge affect on gameplay and it's impossible to even loosely recreate certain historical borders without it existing. There are a number of quotes as evidence in my original post if you want sources.
While I'm disappointed nothing was added on the eastern Caspian coast since we know people lived in that area and had interactions with the countries around them and several people made posts about it, I don't think it's ultimately Important for the gameplay to be missing those few locations. But there's feedback I gave in the Khwarazm area that I do think is actually meaningful and isn't in this map, I want to know if I should be reiterating that here or waiting for future feedback threads.
What I will reiterate here since I think it more likely is meant for this thread (though please redirect me if I'm wrong; it could also be the Chagatai one) is a border connection between the Samangan and Khamard locations (just southeast of Balkh). The road passing through here seems to have been a main route in the time period and is still visible today.
Barthold An Historical Geography of Iran, 68
Barthold An Historical Geography of Iran, 23-24
(Madar is at the very north of Khamard, where it's closest to Samangan)
Edit: Actually looking again you named Kurgancha as a new location so Khwarazm must be included in this one to at least some extent. In that case I very strongly implore you to add a corridor between Kurgancha or Kath (somewhere on the east of Khwarazm) to Jand (or nearby) in the northeast. There is significant textual evidence that such a corridor was regularly used not only for trade and travel but for full-scale armies, and at various points in history the rulers of Khwarazm also ruled Jand without also ruling the long connection around to the south, which could only have been feasibly done with such a connection. Most of my suggestions involve adding a few locations that ultimately aren't that important for gameplay, but this corridor would actually have a huge affect on gameplay and it's impossible to even loosely recreate certain historical borders without it existing. There are a number of quotes as evidence in my original post if you want sources.
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Sarbedars. They had quasi republican government, guess if you can choose between monarchy and republic, republic portrays them better.
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Marvelous, an urban republic in the middle of steppe hordes desolating Iran will be an exciting campaign!!
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There should only be two:
- Sovereign
- Subordinate
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Hello, a proud Zeeuw here! I don't know if this is the right place to post any feedback on the low countries, as that post was about a year ago. But I have some things I want to ask/mention.
Can we add more farmlands to present day Netherlands? I think it's incorrect to add so much farmland to Flanders and none to the northern bits, as marine clay is known to be a very fertile soil type once you get rid of the salt.
nl.wikipedia. org/wiki/Zeeklei
I have done some research mainly on my own province: Zeeland. Flanders and Holland fought for centuries over the region, partially because of the fertile sea clay:
nl.wikipedia. org/wiki/Strijd_tussen_Vlaanderen_en_Holland_om_Zeeland_Bewestenschelde
The fertile soil of the islands is specifically mentioned on the wiki pages of both Walcheren and Zuid-Beveland:
nl.wikipedia. org/wiki/Walcheren
en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Zuid-Beveland
The clergy of Flanders played a mayor role in the development of Zeeland. Is this reflected in the game? Maybe by adding extra clergymen or a religious building added at the start?
nl.wikipedia. org/wiki/Strijd_tussen_Vlaanderen_en_Holland_om_Zeeland_Bewestenschelde
And is it possible to remove the land connection with Brabant, where the river Eendracht/Striene historically was? It would be great if the county of islands (Zeeland=Sealand) would be actual islands, so our fleet can block enemies from entering as well as to maximize the representation of strategic importance the islands historically had.
I would love to hear your reaction on this!
(I placed a space in the wiki links to make it work, I don't know if that's permissible on this forum. If not, I am sorry. Because the Dutch wiki pages contained more information, I direct-translated it. Sorry for the wacky English).
Can we add more farmlands to present day Netherlands? I think it's incorrect to add so much farmland to Flanders and none to the northern bits, as marine clay is known to be a very fertile soil type once you get rid of the salt.
nl.wikipedia. org/wiki/Zeeklei
I have done some research mainly on my own province: Zeeland. Flanders and Holland fought for centuries over the region, partially because of the fertile sea clay:
nl.wikipedia. org/wiki/Strijd_tussen_Vlaanderen_en_Holland_om_Zeeland_Bewestenschelde
The fertile soil of the islands is specifically mentioned on the wiki pages of both Walcheren and Zuid-Beveland:
nl.wikipedia. org/wiki/Walcheren
en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Zuid-Beveland
The clergy of Flanders played a mayor role in the development of Zeeland. Is this reflected in the game? Maybe by adding extra clergymen or a religious building added at the start?
nl.wikipedia. org/wiki/Strijd_tussen_Vlaanderen_en_Holland_om_Zeeland_Bewestenschelde
And is it possible to remove the land connection with Brabant, where the river Eendracht/Striene historically was? It would be great if the county of islands (Zeeland=Sealand) would be actual islands, so our fleet can block enemies from entering as well as to maximize the representation of strategic importance the islands historically had.
I would love to hear your reaction on this!
(I placed a space in the wiki links to make it work, I don't know if that's permissible on this forum. If not, I am sorry. Because the Dutch wiki pages contained more information, I direct-translated it. Sorry for the wacky English).
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Great job! I'm glad you took my comments and those of our Georgian brothers into account. I'm not sure if this fits the topic of the post, but I’d like to suggest an achievement for uniting the Caucasus called "The Legacy of Fogarmah." According to legend, his sons—Haik, Kartlos, Kavkas, Bardos, Lekos, Egros, Movakan, and Eros—were the forefathers of the Caucasian tribes and peoples.
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Asked and answered.
You can filter to dev only responses so you don't need to read the 10 pages.
Pavia didn't link their previous quote so I couldn't embed it also
Edit: I noticed that I messed up the embedded quote with the first quote, and corrected it
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Gilan could make a plausible formable nation for Tulam, Fuman, Rasht, Ranekouh and Lahijan. These tags should start in a defensive pact IO. I would also probably allow the Ispahbads to also form Gilan.
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The Kipchak population in Georgia and the Kipchak Atabek state should also be added
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Nakh should be a separate language from Dagestanian. The two split off over 5000 years ago. Even putting them in the same family is a dubious proposition.
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Told ya, you were going a bit too deep.Thanks for the post! Though I am slightly disappointed that many of the suggestions I gave were passed over, in this post I will once again point them out to you.
I will repost my suggestion tree from before for your convenience:
- Georgia Map feedback // Samktskhe map feedback // Shaki map feedback
- Culture and languages feedback
- Georgia and the Latins - Catholicism, Genoese colonies, and natural harbours feedback
- Georgian societal values feedback
- Map colour and flag feedback (self-evident stuff)
- Cultural and religious demographics feedback (updated in "finishing touches")
- Some other relevant historical maps
- Laz culture feedback
- Economy of Georgia feedback part 1 (fiscal data) // part 2 (raw materials)
- Diplomacy of Georgia feedback
- General finishing touches feedback (big)
1. Political map
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Georgia should control the location of Tuapse on the Abkhazian coast, as it is believed to be the location of the northwesternmost point of Georgia - Nicopsis. Evidently, I wrote this too late for it to have had any meaningful impact in the old thread. In addition, Georgia should directly own Rutul, as can be seen on the map on the right.
Samtskhe shouldn't control the location of Khikhani, and in its place, Georgia should (as the Saeristavo of Adjara, abstracted as an integral part of the country). Side note about Samtskhe - I think it'd be best if its map colour were white, to simulate its proto-national flag/banner more accurately.
"Armenia", the Zakarid dynasty vassal, has an anachronistic name. The dynasty never claimed to represent "Armenia", nor did it ever do so. I suggest changing the name of the country to "Zakarids".
The Duchy of Saarishiano (Shaki) should extend to include all of the province of Shaki (as modelled in-game), as according to the principal historian of the time period, Hamdallah Mustawfi Qazvini, the land was only lost to Shirvan in 1339. I've written more about this in "Georgia map feedback" above.
2. Ilkhanate
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As we've proven many times, Georgia had left the Ilkhanate by 1330. While we do not yet know how the mechanics of this IO will work, I doubt that this map should include Georgia and its subjects in 1337.
3. Dynasties
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The Principality of Alastani is erroneously portrayed as part of the Jaqeli dynasty, when in fact it was held by a Bagrationi dynast. Also, why are the colours for the Jaqelis and Bagrationis the same? Are they depicted as a part of the same dynasty, with the former a cadet branch of the latter? Because if so, that's very inaccurate - they are patrilineally unrelated.
4. Country Ranks
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As you portrayed Ethiopia as an empire, I think it would only be fair to do the same for Georgia. The title of the Georgian monarch since 1008 had been "King of Kings", exactly like in Ethiopia. I understand, however, if it is a purely game balance decision.
Shaki should be a Duchy-tier realm as well, as it was a Saeristavo, just like Samtskhe.
5. locations
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A singular addition of a location to the Georgian region (Şavşat) is very disappointing to see. Especially needed are the further divisions in the Lazeti/Lazona locations of Pontus, and in western Georgia (Imereti).
@Georgian Noble has made a very good map for you to use a guideline. I strongly urge you to rethink your decision in this regard.
6. Provinces
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Same as above, it is very disappointing that the oversized province of Imereti still controls Svaneti, and Avaria has "de jure" ownership over Omalo.
In addition, the province names of Samtskhe and Meskheti are very confusing. The regional toponyms of Meskheti and Samtskhe mean the same thing - they are variants of the endonym Meskhi, and represent one and the same region. I strongly recommend changing the name of "Meskheti" to Tao-Klarjeti.
Also, the creation of a "Lazona" province to the east of Trebizond (to represent the Thema of Lazica) would be appreciated.
Tashir should be called "Somkhiti", at least in the Georgian localisation.
Abkhazia should extend to include "Costa" and "Tuapse", though the latter was historically considered to be a part of "Jiketi", so at the very least, include the former in Abkhazia.
7. Areas
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I think the province of Tashir should be a part of the Georgian area, as it had been an integral part of Kartvelian statehood for millennia. Plus, it's geographically more tied to Kartli. And same as above, regarding Abkhazia.
Something must be done about "Armenia" and the "Armenian Highlands". As of now, those areas definitely need restructuring.
8. Terrain
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Some of the most agriculturally significant parts of Georgia, Kartli and Kakheti, should be grasslands, or even farmlands. Definitely not forests.
9. Natural harbours
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Again, it seems like my suggestions haven't reached you, as I've given numerous sources and info about the quality of the ports of the eastern Black Sea, and yet the natural value of them is still the same as before. I attached an image of the notable (and naturally valuable) harbours of the region. I've written more here.
10. Languages
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It is inaccurate to group Georgian, Mingrelian/Laz (AKA Zan), and Svan into the same language. True, they belong to the same language family, but they are NOT mutually intelligible, and haven't been so for 2000 years at minimum. I suggest creating 3 languages in place of them: Georgian, Zan, and Svan, as I've written previously.
Regarding court languages, I think Shaki should have it be Georgian, as it was a Georgian-ruled march since the early 12th century.
And "Dagestanian" (which I presume unites northeastern Caucasian languages) should be spelt "Dagestani".
I've written more here.
11. Cultures
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The location of Qakh should be Georgian.
There should definitely be more Laz people in Pontus. It is well-recorded that despite constituting the majority of people in rural areas, Laz people held rather little political power compared to the Pontic Greeks, hence their obscurity. In 1337, they still would've been the majority in the empire. I've attached an image of what I believe to be a fair assessment of the region. You can see my post about this matter here.
Mingrelian should be the majority in Poti, while Georgian should constitute the majority in Ts'esi and "Ispir", with Svan and Armenian minorities, respectively.
More controversially, I don't think the Abkhaz/Apsua culture should extend that far south. This map (with regard to Abkhazia) more closely represents the situation by the 18th century, after the conquests of Abkhaz chiefs against the Principality of Mingrelia. Thus, I suggest making the current Mingrelian and Svan minorities into majorities in the locations of Sukhumi and Lata, respectively.
12. Religion
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The Armenian Apostolic minorities of Georgia are represented well, but the Orthodox Armenian population isn't. In the 12th-13th centuries, a large part of the land held by the Zakarid-Mkhargrdzeli dynasty converted the populace to Eastern Orthodoxy, especially in the Tashir and Ani provinces. "Ispir" should be Orthodox as well, along with more locations in Shaki, as that province only became Islamised in the 16th-17th centuries, after mass-scale Qizilbash settlement.
Most importantly, the Georgian pagans of Svaneti and Mtiuleti are not represented at all, which is regrettable. The old pagan beliefs of the mountain regions only really died out in the 19th century. I suggest naming this religion "Kerptaqvanismtsemloba" - "კერპთაყვანისმცემლობა", literally meaning idol worship.
On the top right you can see my map from the previous thread - I hope you can infer the meaning of the colours and hatches without a legend.
I've written at length about the cultural and religious demography of Georgia here.
13. Raw materials
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Again, it unfortunately seems like my feedback wasn't received at all, as many of the raw goods which I pointed out to be incorrect are still in place, most notably wheat in Kutaisi, though the silk in Gremi is very nice to see. I suggest taking a look at my extensive suggestions here.
14. Markets
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Very pleased to see a Tbilisi market. Perhaps it should have greater control to the south, over the Armenian subjects of Georgia?
Overall, admittedly, I am quite disappointed with these changes. I truly don't want to sound demanding, but I feel as though this feedback post was rushed, at least for the region I can speak for. Sorry to @Pavía if this sounds too demanding or rude.
That's why I tried to be more concervative.
But even quite a few of my suggestions didn't get implemented.
But I'm at least happy I got them to add farmlands and the silk good to Kakheti.
The market addition was kinda a no brainer.
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Borjigin blood? Will starting rulers have any modifiers that will be inherited by their heirs?
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Just in case this hasn't been mentioned already, I feel like there should be some impassable mountain spots in the Zagros Mountains between Iran and northern Iraq. Given how much of an obstacle they were to the Iranian plateau from the west, it should be similar to the impassable spots currently on the map in Armenia.
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