Tinto Maps #4 Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic Feedback

[Korsjan Rīkis]

Latvians mixing that deep into Lithuania Proper is an interesting choice for sure. (No recorded sources of Latvians as a specific nation back then.) Also as I mentioned a few times, Lithuanians lived in eastern Lithuania not Aukstaitians. Lithuanian is an early European nation, kind of shame it's not even present here.

I will pull out a hard quote to prove Lithuanians were around
Omnis Russia ad Litwinos deberet simpliciter pertinere. - Algirdas

All of Rusia should belong to the Lithuanians

The Latvians in Lithuania are supposed to be Semigallians. While perfectly they should be a culture of their own, it's not that much of a problem, if they're merged with Latvians in 1337 already, because they are already in the proccess of being assimilated.

Also, Latvians=Latgalians.

 

[Proterra]

Dzień dobry!

Below will be my analysis of this Feedback:

Countries:

I really like the refreshed map of countries. I'll just add from myself, countries that were created shortly after the game's launch date:

1. Duchy of Pless (in German: Pleß; in Czech: Pština; in Polish: Pszczyna) - 1424–1921
2. Duchy of Koźle (in German: Cosel; in Czech: Kozel) -1284–1532
3. Duchy of Bielsko (in German: Bielitz; in Czech: Bílsko) - 1572–1752
4. Duchy of Krnov (in German: Jägerndorf; in Czech: Krnov; in Polish: Karniów) - 1377–1849

Locations:

I really like the large number of completely new Locations. I respect the effort you put into this work!

But it's a pity that quite a few good old Locations were removed at the same time - in a special way in Prussia!

View attachment 1182713

1. Greifenhagen (in Kashubian: Gripiewò; in Polish: Gryfino)
2. Friedeberg in der Neumark (in Silesian: Krajyńske Strzelce; in Polish: Strzelce Krajeńskie)
3. Frankfurt an der Oder (in Silesian: Uodrzański Frankfurt)
4. Śwjybodźin (in German: Schwiebus)
5. Międzychód
6. Wolsztyn
7. Leszno
8. Rawicz
9. Września
10. Neustadt in Westpreußen (in Kashubian: Wejrowò)
11. Tiegenhof (in Kashubian: Nowi Dwór)
12. Preußisch Stargard (in Kashubian: Starogarda)
13. Prust (in Polish: Pruszcz)
14. Aleksandrów
15. Brodnica
16. Deutsch Eylau (in Polish: Iława)
17. Heiligenbeil (in Polish: Święta Siekierka)
18. Rastenburg (in Polish: Kętrzyn)
19. Sensburg (in Polish: Mrągowo)
20. Marggrabowa (in Polish: Olecko)
21. Johannisburg (in Polish: Pisz)
22. Augustavas (in Polish: Augustów)
23. Białystok
24. Wysokie
25. Ostrów
26. Otwock
27. Wyszków
28. Siematycze
29. Skierwienice
30. Kutno
31. Bełchatów
32. Tomaszów
33. Białobrzegi
34. Starachowice
35. Skarżysko
36. Włoszczowa
37. Pińczów
38. Kazimierza Wielka
39. Tarnobrzeg
40. Zamość
41. Bochnia
42. Gorlice
43. Poronin
44. Sucha Beskidzka
45. Wadowic (in Polish: Wadowice)
46. Biołŏ (in Polish: Biała)
47. Będzin
48. Olkusz
49. Tarnowske Gůry (in Polish: Tarnowskie Góry)
50. Katowic (in Polish: Katowice)
51. Rybńik (in Polish: Rybnik)
52. Glywice (in Polish: Gliwice)
53. Zobrze (in Polish: Zabrze)
54. Wjelgo Ruda (in Polish: Ruda Śląska)
55. Kynighuta (in Polish: Chorzów)
56. Wałbrzich (in Polish: Wałbrzych)
57. Jelyńo Gůra (in Polish: Jelenia Góra)
58. Ślůnski Lwůwek (in Polish: Lwówek Śląski)
59. Lubań
60. Lubin
61. Uodrzański Bytům (in Polish: Bytom Odrzański)
62. Karwino (in Czech: Karvina)
63. Brůntal (in Czech: Bruntál)
64. Uostrawa (in Czech: Ostrava)
65. Frysztot (in Czech: Fryštát)

Renaming



Provinces:

View attachment 1182673

1. Sudovia
2. Neustadt in Westpreußen
3. Southern Kuyavia
4. Nur
5. Biała Podlaska
6. Kielce
7. Jasło
8. Żywiec
9. Racibórz
10. Bytom
11. Gliwice
12. Jelenia Góra
13. Leszno
14. Ostrava

Areas:
View attachment 1182590
I suggest dividing the following areas:

1. Baltic into Estonia and Latvia
2. Prussia into West Prussia and East Prussia
3. Silesia into Lower Silesia and Upper Silesia

Eastern Poland area separated from Polesia and Volhynia.

Cultures:

The culture map after the refresh is excellent. I like the proper representation of the cultures of the Balts the most. The division of large cultures such as Ruthenian and Polish adds more immersion and can be a chance for interesting missions to unify cultures, e.g.:

1. Polish - Greater Polish + Lesser Polish = Old Polish; Old Polish + Masovian = Polish
2. Ukrainian - Halychian + Volhynian + Ruthenian + Severian = Ukrainian
3. Belarusian - Polesian + Polatskian = Belarusian
4. Lithuanian - Aukstaitian + Samogitian + Sudovian = Lithuanian

I think it would be interesting to add Goral culture in the following provinces: Szczyrzyc and Nowy Sącz.

Markets:
View attachment 1182584
In my opinion, Gdańsk (Danzig) is sorely missed as a Trade Center. This city was a very important member of the Hanseatic League and a major trade center in the region.

Names

Silesian

1. Kożuchów rename into Kożuchůw
2. Świdnica rename into Świdńica
3. Krnów rename into Karńůw
4. Gubczyce rename into Gubczice
5. Frywałdów rename into Frywołdůw
6. Hułczyn rename into Hulczyn
7. Pszczyna rename into Pszczina
8. Jawor (without rename)
9. Złotoryja (without rename)
10. Lubań (without rename)
11. Wschowa (without rename)
12. Oława (without rename)
13. Świdnica (without rename)
14. Koźle (without rename)
15. Żary (without rename)
16. Toszek (without rename)

The rest of the Silesian locations shown in this Feedback are fine.

Kashubian (also works for Polabian culture)

1. Stettin rename into Szcecëno
2. Wolin rename into Wòlëń
3. Schlawe rename into Słôwno
4. Berent rename into Kòscérzna
5. Kołobrzeg rename into Kòlbrzég
6. Butow rename into Bëtowò
7. Putzig rename into Pùckò
8. Dramburg rename into Drôwa
9. Lebork rename into Lãbórg
10. Wolgast rename into Wòłogòszcz
11. Rostock rename into Roztok
12. Belgard rename into Biôłogarda
13. Danzig rename into Gdúnjsk
14. Karthaus rename into Kartëzë
15. Tuchel rename into Tëchòlô
16. Saatzig rename into Stôrgard
17. Stolp rename into Stôłpskò
18. Wyrzysk rename into Wërzëskò
19. Schwetz rename into Swiecé
20. Flatow rename into Złotowò
21. Brandenburg rename into Branibòr
22. Ruppin rename into Rypin
23. Berlin rename into Kòpanica
24. Köslin rename into Kòszalëno
25. Dirschau rename into Dërszewò
26. Bydgoszcz rename into Bëdgòszcza

Goral (potential)

1. Nowy Sącz rename into Sonc
2. Jasło rename into Josiel
3. Nowy Targ rename into Miasto
4. Biecz rename into
5. Czchów rename into
6. Sucha Beskidzka rename into
7. Poronin rename into

Definitely on the Gdańsk as trade centre thingy, while not quite Lubeck, it was as important as Riga in this time if not more so.

As for Górale, it's niche, but totally realistic and awesome. And it would make for an awesome easter egg if Podhale could somehow be formed as a nation through a number of really obscure decisions, and the final achievement should be the Góral conquest of Illinois.

 

[Novakovsky]

Great work!
I know this will be in the Germany feedback map, but since we got a sneak peak of changes in Pomerania (some of which I suggested in my comment under the original post), I would like to add one thing since you are working on it.

The location of Gollnow should be part of the Duchy of Stettin.

The Duchy of Pomerania was divided in 1295 by the rivers Peene and Ina into the Duchies of Pomerania-Stettin and Pomerania-Wolgast. Gollnow was on the Stettin side. And the main point of adding this location was to represent the correct border.

I know you are still working on Germany and we have to wait with the feedback for the Germany post, but I just wanted to address this issue now. For other changes in Pomerania are great, adding locations of Gollnow, Kolberg, Lake Dąbie, land of Nauagrd (although the dynasty should be Eberstein). Once again, great work on polishing the map!

 

[Proterra]

I know that it is fairly minor thing but Łuków location should be within Podlasie province and Mazovia area. At least that's how I feel it should be as someone who lives around there.

edit1: there should be more wetlands in Pommerania region:
View attachment 1182582View attachment 1182583
That's a lot of lakes !

edit2: I think that Kuyavian culture should be a distinct one in Poland. This is the region from the current royal lineage of Poland comes from. Apart from that everything looks fine to me. (I''d like to see option to unite all these into one united Polish culture later in the game)

edit3: I still think there should be at least small pockets of Pagans all around Slavic lands as some of the rites are still performed today, plus christianity always was more of the syncretic religion there, adopting lots of local customs, as it wasn't adopted via crusades and war.

edit4: I dunno why you included Inowrocław duchy as the lands of kuyavia there were owned directly by Polish crown back then. I made a whole feedback post about this on Tinto Maps #4. Additionally as others already pointed out, Gniewkowo should be somewhat represented as the location.

Those are predominantly glacial lakes that are very deep. Hardly any wetlands in Pomorze outside Żuławy and the mouth of the Odra. Kaszuby has more topographic relief than any region in Poland outside the southern voivodeships.

 

[Kaizer Prussian]

The map density changed a lot, and Pocuttia now looks awesome Thanks!

But there is some minor problems
About cultures, idk what would your culture approach would be, such granular cultures would require Southern Rus to be separated from Northern Rus culture group to represent a major differences between them.
I strongly suggest rename Halychian to Red Ruthenian because not only this culture expands furthen than actual Halychyna but its timeframe wrong.
Also still existing Rusyn culture have no sense. because people on both sides of Carphatians are still pretty homogenic, the divide only would begin to appear after Brest union in 1596 because Halychyna adopted greek-catholicism and Subcaphatia would remain orthodox till this day.
I suggest, as others also said to expand this culture a bit southern to Northern Bykovyna. At least as a minority. Bykovyna itself was for a long time integral part of Galicia (Latin name of Halychyna) Princedom and later Kingdom.
"In 1334, the prince's charter mentions the "faithful nobleman" Oleksandr Moldavovich, who at that time ruled in Russo-Wallachia, so the influence of the princely court did not let the Moldavian land out of orbit, so there was bound to be a conflict with the Hungarians over those lands."
So just in the years of game. Parts of Moldova are listed as Russo-Vlachia

And about countries
Bare minimum is to rename Halychia. Its super bad. Its like calling Suffolk - Sufok or Westphalia - Westphaln
Just call it Halychyna (region name) of Halych, because of Princedom of Halych, thats it.
About borders. We ofthen lack well made maps but we have text sources. Northern lands of Galicia-Volhynia that i drew were part of Volhynia Princedom up until at least 1342 "at the beginning, this territory was probably occupied by Masovian princes, because for 1342 the sources mention the Masovian governor in Dorogychyna, Jan Dobrogostowic"
So only after death of last Galicia-Vohlynia ruler in 1340.
There is also minor correction to make Turov-Pinsk bigger.

I cant confirm Podolian land ownership at that time to anyone. But creation of Podolian Duchy was a result of wars for succesion of Galicia-Vohlynia, so I presume this lands were vassals of Galicia-Vohlynia and should be depicted as such, not as an integral part of country.
Again Russo-Wallachia also need partial recognition on the map.

Thanks for your work!!

 

[ArVass]

So Galicia and Volhynia are treated as Principalities when separate, but as a Kingdom when together. Is there any such special flavour given to the ruler of the Galicia-Volhynia (/Kingdom of Ruthenia, a title granted by the Pope) personal union IO?

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

Silesians aren't a separate nationality now (only germans are pushing for that), and back then they definitely weren't since German wasn't that present there yet.

Not really – Silesian and German minority organizations (in)famously don't trust each other, with the latter perceiving Silesian nationality as a tool to Polonize local Germans (an ironic mirror of how Poles perceive it as a tool to Germanize Poles).

The color of "Greater polish" is too similar to Prussian, but you guys are doing a great job! Don't forget that!

Mazovian and Polesian also look a bit too similar in color imho.

Should the Prussia area be split into East Prussia and West Prussia and then have the region be Prussia?

Could be West Prussia if owned by a German or Pruthenian, otherwise make it Pomerelia.

As for Górale, it's niche, but totally realistic and awesome. And it would make for an awesome easter egg if Podhale could somehow be formed as a nation through a number of really obscure decisions, and the final achievement should be the Góral conquest of Illinois.

Hehehe. Yeah, Góral world conquest would be hilarious.

Perhaps make Górals a melting pot of (Lesser) Poles and Vlachs? One of the leading theories about Góral origins is the Vlach migration during 13th century.

Edit: Vlachs with either Silesians or Lesser Poles, Górals exist in both regions and their dialects fluctuate between being closer to Lesser Polish and to Silesian ethnolects. Some are also heavily influenced by Slovakians.

 

[Proterra]

Hehehe. Yeah, Góral world conquest would be hilarious.

Well, the local paper does have a Chicago section.

Perhaps make Górals a melting pot of (Lesser) Poles and Vlachs? One of the leading theories about Góral origins is the Vlach migration during 13th century.

Are Vlachs actually included in the game? Would be an awesome idea really. Vlach shepherds and Lesser Poles who are on the run for something.

 

[GuSR_]

That's not true, there are 4 German cultures with German in their names: Baltic German, Transylvanian German, Silesian German and Carpathian German.

That's my bad! I may have momentarily forgot that Southern Germany and the Baltic exist.

 

[DOURIOS]

Seeing the suggestions you make actually turn out to be reviewed and implemented is so rewarding look at this beautiful fixed borders .
Thank you for reviewing so thoroughly our suggestions Pavia and the rest of the team!

 

[Fehervari]

Belz province should be part of Volhynia area, imo.

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

Vlach shepherds and Lesser Poles who are on the run for something.

Perhaps they could emerge as a melting pot of Vlachs with either Lesser Poles or Silesians, Silesian Górals are a thing as well after all:

Silesian Gorals - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Dan29067]

So Galicia and Volhynia are treated as Principalities when separate, but as a Kingdom when together. Is there any such special flavour given to the ruler of the Galicia-Volhynia (/Kingdom of Ruthenia, a title granted by the Pope) personal union IO?

I think Galicia-Volhynia should be able to become a kingdom if it becomes independent from Golden Horde. It's rulers sometimes called themselves kings and country kingdom but not consistently which suggests present but weak royal tradition. According to Ukrainian historian Myroslav Voloshchuk Galicia-Volhynia status as kingdom was never fully instutionalized and Mongol factor was very important reason. To accept title of a king meant (at least formally) to subordinate to Papacy, which ( from Khan's point of view) was violation of his rights as supreme suzerain of this territory. That's why coronation of Daniel as king of Ruthenia immediately provoked war with mongols.

 

[A_Cruel]

I think Galicia-Volhynia should be able to become a kingdom if it becomes independent from Golden Horde. It's rulers sometimes called themselves kings and country kingdom but not consistently which suggests present but weak royal tradition

I wouldn't fully agree with you kind sir.
Danylo (Daniel like you've wrote) wasn't merely calling himself a king. He had accepted a crown from Pope. And, despite you're correct in your statement on Khan being angry from Princes of Halych claiming a King of Ruthenes title (Rex Russiae in latin), at least two of these rulers were indeed properly crowned, called themselves and were referred by others as kings (Danylo and his grandson Yuriy). So, the most proper way in mimicking that ingame would be indeed getting rid of Yoke.

Other question on the region to devs - would it be possible to colonize Great steppes, when nomad grasp over these lands loosens? It doesn't look accurate to use regular conquest mechanisms over horde infected areas.

 

[margustoo]

Estonian culture needs to be separated into 2, because Southern Estonian languages and cultures (Seto, Võro, Tarto and Mulgi) are very very different from the rest of the Estonia. They have their own unique version of Latin alphabet with sounds that don't excist in Estonian proper (for example glottal stop), their vocabulary is very different, they have grammatic rules that don't excist in Estonian (for example Vowel Harmony that exicts also in Finnish) and overall they are culturally very distintict from the rest of the Estonia. By all purposes they should be separate culture of their own. Map above shows where Estonian and Southern Estonian cultures should be. This divide between Estonian and Southern Estonian is theorised to be taken place arround the time when Jesus was born (1300 years prior to the game start).

Tricky part about it is that the best unifying name for all 4 languages/cultures (Seto, Võro, Tarto and Mulgi) is Southern Estonian. But that name mistakenly makes it seem that they are barely different from Estonian.. what is not true. Alternative name that could fit is "Ugalian" that can be constructed from the word "Ugala". "Ugala language" is used as a name of a historic Southern Estonian language that exicted before it divided into 4. This name was created during national awakening (19th century) by putting together the names of 2 ancient tribes that excisted in those areas (Ugandi and Sakala) and was also used as a name of a theater in Viljandi.

You can read up more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Estonian. Map on that site also shows it excisting in Latvia, but migration to most of those areas happened most likely later than the game start. Only one that excisted prior was Lutsi. That is why I added pink stripped area to my map as well.

 

[Doxapar Orumf]

Will ther be more provinces like Szczyrzyc..?

 

[Pollllo]

I'm guessing you intended to change Kielce into Chęciny, looking at the province map, but forgot to do so in the location map. This should prove it!

 

[Pollllo]

Will ther be more provinces like Szczyrzyc..?

Szczyrzyc isn't even a location, what do you mean?

 

[margustoo]

You're missing South Estonian as a culture
View attachment 1182564
North Estonian is closer to Finnish than to South Estonian
This Is how I'd set them up. South Estonian can also be called Tarbatu (the oldest attested name for Tarto, name of a South Estonian dialect used to make a written language), Võro (although this excludes Tarto, Mulgi and Seto) or Tarto. North Estonian could stay as Estonian.
View attachment 1182579

I would also rename North Livonia to Sakala, based on the ancient tribe and county of the same name.
View attachment 1182588

I have no clue how you got Southern Estonian so wrong on your map. Especially you posted a source that correctly shows it's extent. Fellin (modern day Viljandi) should not be Southern Estonian nor should Southern Estonian extend to Baltic coast, because neither of those 2 things have been true. Also, they shouldn't extend futher south than Marienburg (Livonian Order's exclave).. especially because they migrated soutward way later than the game start.

But especially bad is your suggestion for the name.. Tarbatu? What?? It's like calling all Romance languages French. Tarbatu is an old name for Tartu (or Tarto) that is only a small part of Southern Estonian. Way better name is "Ugala" or "Ugalian" that is used as a name for an hypothetical language that excisted before Southern Estonian divided into 4 (but after Lutsi language divided from Southern Estonian) and is combination of Ugandi and Sakala (2 old tribes that excisted in those areas).

 

[I_have_no_ideas_for_name]

View attachment 1182543

Provinces:
View attachment 1182548

My hometown is on the map HELL YEAH!
Also, I'd suggest renaming the province to which it belongs (Bila Tserkva) into "Porossia" since it almost perfectly corresponds to the basin of the river Ros' from which that name derives.