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Please Give Stolp location to teutonic order as it was leased by pomeranian dukes in 1329-1341
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COUNTRIES
Main changes are changes to the names.
Firstly, "Ösel" should be called "Ösel-Wiek". Ösel is the name of the main island in Estonia (nowadays called Saaremaa) and Wiek is the name that was used for the mainland part of Ösel-Wiek. Officially it was known as Bishopric of Ösel-Wiek and not just Bishopric of Ösel or Bishopric of Wiek. Strange that nobody didn't give feedback about it earlier or at least that this mistake was not corrected before this post was made.
Secondly, "Riga Lettoniae" makes little to no sense. I have no clue where this name is sourced from because it isn't part of it's Latin name nor is it used in any of the sources I have seen.
Other than the names, I also significantly changed the borders of Courland and the borders of Pskov. Courland should have it's 3 exclaves and shape of Pskov was simply wrong. Most sources show that Pskov was basically wide at the bottom and thin in the north (rathen than the opposite it is currently). I also changed divide between Ösel-Wiek and Livonian Order on the Saaremaa island back to it's old version of east-west split rather than the current north-south split, because that is more in line with the cultural split (mainly based on the use of letter "ö" insted of "õ") and because this divide also makes sense based on where the second biggest settlement (Orissaare) is. This settlement became important quite soon after the game start when the center of control moved from Peude to Sonneburg (in Estonian "Maasilinna) castle after Estonians rebelled.
LOCATIONS
Border changes are mainly based on medieval borders. But I also used as sources later borders (during Polish-Lithuanian, Swedish or Russian rule) where it made sense. I also based borders on the cultrural borders (more on that below). Not all name changes are massive. Often (especially in Archbishopric of Riga and Danish Estonia) names are in local language when it doesn't make sense. Until 19th century (or unless Latvians and/or Estonians rebel and win a rebellion) it doesn't make any sense to use names in local languages (either Estonian or Latvian). Mainly because they significantly differ from the names that were used by people who lived then. Also, because until the early 20th century Germans were in power no matter who ruled, because of that it makes more sense to use German names as the baseline.
In total I added 6 new locations. 2 in Estonia and 4 in Latvia.
Main changes in Estonia:
- I changed St-Martin into Alt-Pernau because that was way more important location. Namely it was a trading town that acted as a rival to Pernau even long after Pernau (or Neu-Pernau) was founded and after the game start. After the rule of Bishoprics ended (aka after the Livionian War) those areas fell under the control of Pernau. Northern border of Alt-Pernau is quite old and it was also the border between Swedish empire and the Commonwealth until Swedes took control over the historic Livonian region. Alt-Pernau lost it's significance during Polish-Lithuanian rule when Pernau asked 1611 to not restore this town. Before that there were even plans during 16th century to have an university there and that could have brought new life to the town. Sadly Reformation and Livonian War ended those plans.
- Alt-Pernau change left way too big Leal location. Because of that I added new province "Lode". Lode is named after Lode castle that has quite interesting history. For example Order and Bishop fought over that castle right after the game starts. Nowadays it is quite well preserved, but even many Estonians don't know about it nor have been there.
- I changed Rapla (in German Rapple) into Warpole (Varbola) because Rapla was illogical name choice for this location. Until 1343 (year that Estonians rebelled) main fortification and town was is Warbole. This refitted Estonian pre-Crusade castle was destroyed after the rebellion because rebelling Estonians used it as a stronghold. Rapla at that time was insignificant village with a church. It only grew in prominance in 19th century after Estonians were freed from serfdom. It especially grew after Tallinn-Viljandi railway was openeed 1900. Angern (Angerja) castle and Fegefeuer (Kiviloo) castle (latter is barely outside the borders of the location) became more prominant after the uprising, but neither were regionally as important as Varbola was or later Rapla became.
- Wolde (Valjala) doesn't make sense as the name for one half of Saaremaa. At the start of the game ancient Valjala castle was already just a pile of rubble and it mainly just was a village with a church. Also, it wasn't even in the territory of Livonian Order. Main center of control for Livonian Order was in Peude (in Estonian Pöide) until Estonians rebelled. After that the wooden castle in Peude was replaced with a stone castle in Sonneburg (in Estonian Maasilinn) that is close to modern day town called Orissaare and what had a town until the castle and the town got destroyed during the Livonian War. Name "Soneburg" can be translated into English as "Penalty Castle".
- Similarily Wendau (Võnnu) doesn't make sense as the name for the northern most location of Dorpat. Historically namesake parish mainly controlled areas south of Tartu and had little to nothing to do with the area north of the river called Emajõgi. Because I used this river as it's southern border, I was even more insentivised to use something else as a name. A candidate for the name is Warbecke (Uus-Kastre) castle that was built sometime during 14th century. First mention of it is from 1392. Problem with this castle is that it borders Emajõgi and is fairlt far west thus it is far from the rest of the location. Alternatively there could be some other name. For example some other parish (other than Võnnu) or a village could be used as the source of the name. This location could be also named after Falkenau or Valkenau abbey (Kärkna klooster) that excisted north of Dorbat.
Although, I do think that Warbecke is better choice for the name, because that castle was way more influentcial than this abbey or some parish./edit After a bit more research I do think that the best candidate for the name is Flakenau, because how influential this abbey was and because it controlled huge swathes of lands in that location. Abbey was founded 1228. - Dorpat became too big and because of that it made sense to add a new location. Best candidate for that was Odenpäh (Otepää) castle that acted as the first administrative center/ capital of the bishoric until the bishop moved to Dorpat. Namesake castle was in use after the game start until in early 15th century it's signifigance suddenly dropped. It is known that it burned down but it isn't known why. Maybe a raid from Pskov or maybe it just catched fire accidentally. Town arround the ruins of castle lasted long after that and this area still had significance until the Livonian War or plague destroyed it.
- Northern border of Kirrumpäh and Neuhausen is based on the historic border between Võro and Tarto languages and culture. This was also used as a border for Võru county during Russian Empire. Võru (in German called Werro) was founded during 18th century very near to a place where Kirrumpäh castle once was. Because of that it also makes sense to use "Kirrumpäh" rather than anything else as a name.
- I also corrected the names of "Saarahof" and "Groß-St. Johannis" because neither one was used during the game start. Gerger mansion became known as Saarahof after Saara parish was created during 16th century. Similarily Walle (in Estonian Valula) village and it's surrounding parish was renamed to Groß-St. Johannis in 17th century.
- I changed significanty Weißenstein's borders so that the border between Polish-Lithuania and Sweden can be achieved. That way this location is also more in line with it's current shape and the shape it had eversince it was ruled by Swedes.
- I corrected north-south border between Estonian and Latvian lands based on historic divides. I did the same based on the divide of Southern Estonian cultures/languages and Estonian culture/language.
- I moved Walk to the lands of Livonian Order. This town was partially on the lands of Livonian Order and on the lands of Dorpat. But because Walk county controlled during the Russian rule mainly Latvian lands, it made sense to have it on the other side of the Livonian-Dorpat border. Walk was quite important town for Livonian order, because how central it was and also because it was owned both by the order and by a bishopric. For example Landtag / Diet of Livonia gathered quite regularily in Walk and because of that also Livonian Confederacy was created there.
- Dünaburg was moved to the correct side of the river. Because it seems that the devs want to have both Kreslau and Dünaburg in the game, I divided Kreslau into 2 locations (Dünaburg and Kreslau). I named current Dünaburg into Dubbena. Dünaburg (Daugapils) is historic capital of Latgallia region and because of that it doesn't make any sense to have that town ion the other side of the river and not in Latgallia.
- I change Durben into Edwahlen location and gave it to Courland. And I created a new location called "Hassenpoth". Both changes were done because I prefered to represent borders of Bishopric of Courland more correctly. Also, like I said before, this division was also present during Polish-Lithuanian rule.
- I added a new location called "Nurmhusen" (nowadays Nurmuiža) because the location called Kandau became too big. This change was also done because I wanted to better represented on the culture map where Livonians lived.
- I added a location called "Seßwegen" (nowadays Cesvaine) because the location named after Ronneburg catle (nowadys Rauna) became too big. I named it after a castle that to my knowledge was the most important in that area. It's importance lasted until it got destroyed during the Northern War (arround the year 1700)
- I changed Straupe (in German Roop or Groß-Roop) into a location called Treiden (Turaida). Treiden was regionally way more important than Roop. It was militarily important until 17th century and it played a crucial role during Crusades as one of the biggest stronghold of crusaders. Opposite side of the river there was Segewold (Sigulda) castle that was smaller but also militarily as important. Alternativly Roop or Groß-Roop could be used as a name, because it still was an Hansetic League town.
- I changed Kircholm (Salaspils) into a location named Dünamünde, because castle and earlier abbey in Dünamünde were both way more influencial than Kircholm. Essentially Dünamünde castle was used as a castle that helped the order to better excert control over Riga city. Dünamünde stayed relevant until it got destroyed 1653 during a war between Sweden and Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
I have no clue what name should be used for "Pietalava" other than it's Latvian or Russian name. That is why it's a question mark./edit I found out that this area was known in German as "Pürnau". Because of that I renamed Pietlava to Pürnau. This use of name can be found in the book called "Die Burgsuchungen in Kurland und Livland vom 13. —16. Jahrhundert" written by Von Dr. Helene Dopkewitsch. This name can also found in a paper caled "Livland im russisch-litauischen Konflikt. Die Grundlegung seiner Neutralitätspolitik 1494-1514" written by Von Ruth Kentmann.
- I added a location named "Ivangorod", because how important it's name sake castle became after the game start. Also, this castle is nowadays iconic because it is on the border of Russia and EU. Because of all of that Ivangorod should be a separate province. "Yama" that is there currently doesn't make much sense, because it is too much west from where Yama (nowadys Kingisepp) was. Because this castle was built in 1492 and named after then Russian ruler, it could be also named after a settlement called "Novoye Selo" that was recorded in 1470 and excisted there prior to the castle. But because "Novoye Selo" just means in English "New village" I decided not to use it as a name.
- Current location called "Cheltsa" is to my knowledge named after a river and makes litttle to no sense. I do think that way more fitting name would be "Kobylya" that was a name of a settlement that was closest to the place where the famouse battle of Peipus Lake aka Battle of the Ice took place. Based on records it is safe to assume that it was one of the few (if not the only) settlements in that area even during the game start.
- I added Voronich to Pskov like it should be and I removed from Pskov Plyussa, Dubronjo and Porchov because those lands were historically part of Novgorod and not Pskov.
PROVINCES
Main border changes:
- I moved Alt-Pernau to Pernau province because historically that location had more ties to Pernau than the rest of the Ösel-Wiek territory after the Bishopric disappeared.
- I moved Oberpahlen to Dorpat province, because most of that area fell under the control of Dorpat after the Livonian war ened. At the same time Oberpahlen (nowadays Põltsamaa) town itself wasn't under the control of Dorpat but instead Fellin. Instead of subdividing Oberfahlen into 2, I thought that giving it fully to Dorpat province made more sense than keeping it with the same province that has Pernau and Fellin locations.
- I moved Sebezh into Dzisna province because historically it fell out of the rule of Pskov fairly quickly. Also, most maps about Pskov don't show it under it's rule eventhough it is known that it's namesake castle was established by Pskov.
- I decided to put "Pietalava" under Pskov area for opposite reason to Sebezh. This area fairly quickly after the game start was conquered by Pskov and even noways it is administrated from Pskov. It is also geographically quite close to Pskov. What speaks against this decision is that most likely Livonian Order controlled this territory during the game start and that before the crusades it was Latgallian territory.
- I used "Wenden", "Pernau" and "Dorpat" because they were also used as names for subdivisions (vojvodinas) during the Polish-Lithuanian rule. And also because all 3 were quite significant settlements even during Livonian Order's excistence.
- I named "South Livonia" into "Livonia" because that is where the name for a bigger Livonian region originates and that was also the only place in bigger Livonian region that had any Livonian population before and after crusades. Alternative names could be "Riga" or current "South Livonia"
- The name "Roatalia" doesn't make any sense because it refers to only "Wiek" part of the "Ösel-Wiek". Because of that I decided to use insted "Ösel-Wiek" rather than making up a new name that also refers to the main land part of the province and to at least the biggest island or even to all the isles.
AREAS
Massive Baltic area doesn't make much sense here. Because of that I do think that it should be divided into Estonia and Latvia instead. I did consider dividing it into Courland (or Courland and Semigallia), Livonia and Estonia, but that would leave out Latgalia. that could be either part of Livonia, part of White Ruthenia or it's own area, but none of them were super obvious choices. Instead of pondering too much on where to add Latgalia, I decided to just divide Baltic based on current national and linguistic borders.
CULTURES
Main change is
I also added Semigallians onto the map whose culture did excist during the game start (unlike Selonians whose mentions died out after the Crusade ended). They (like Curonians) were both in modern-day Lithuania and Latvia until they got assimilated into wider Latvian culture. I was not able to find out when this assimilation happened. One theory stipulates that this migration could have happened quite soon after the Crusade and Latgallians could have just moved into Curonian, Semigallian and Livonian territories that had been ravaged by the Crusade. Livonian War and Plague during 16th century could have also allowed assimilation to happen. I was conservative on Latgalian migration, but you could argue that most (if not whole) modern day Latvia should have either Latgallian (or Latvian) majority or minority.
I am not certain from where Germans game to Baltics. I have heard that one main place could be Niedersachsen region. Because of that this German culture could be either Niedersachsen or a separate Baltic German culture that was slowly forming and separating even during the game start.
Second picture shows map without dashes for minorties.
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That should not be the case in the game, because it is historically false. Archbishop and other Bishops waged war with Livonian Order before and after the game start. So did Riga city. It's historically as illogical as making all HRE members vassals of HRE Emperor.
There should be 2 independent states:
- Livonian Order and it's vassal Riga city
- Riga Archbishopric with other Bishoprics as it's vassal
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Why not use the border of counties of 13th century of Estonia?
For example, I would divide Estonia as a region into areas of Estonia and Ugallia. Estonia would have 5 provinces and Ugallia 3 provinces.
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Quoting Pavia in TT#12:
My guess as to what happened is that they saw that the normal Latin solution wouldn't solve the Riga (city) and Riga (archbishopric) issue, since Riga is "Riga" in both Latin and English, and added "Lettoniae" ("of Latvia, Latvian") to help distinguish between the two.
"Rigensis" is a bit odd as it's an adjective, not a noun ("Rigan" vs. "Riga"), and the option to just always show their full name is hampered by the fact that they often are very small on the map.
You could potentially have the non-archbishopric use the Latvian orthography of Rīga, but I think that goes against the country naming conventions they've established as well of using Wikipedia standard names.
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Pre-Crusade borders lost it's importance after the Crusades. Also, they are estimations. It would be fairly useless to use them. At least by basing them on the borders that excisted during Polish, Swedish and/or Russian Empire, you can use borders that meant something during the timeframe of the game. If this game would start in 11th or 12th century then those estimations of ancient borders could be more useful.
What helps you to undestand is a newer map of Ancient Estonia:
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But that still doesn't explain why "Riga Lettoniae". There is no historic basis for it what so ever. It was not an Latvian nor Latgallian country nor wasn't Archbishopric thinking himself as archbishop of Letts or Lettonia. Before it was Riga Archbishopric, it was known as Bishopric of Livonia and Bishopric of Uxküll. I would be way more understanding if then devs would have used "Riga Livoniae" or "Riga Uxküll" instead. You could also use "Riga Kokenhusen" as it's name because Kokenhusen was used as one of the main residents of the Riga Archbishop. "Riga Lettoniae" is simply nonsense.
Anyways, thanks for sharing the post from devs. I hadn't seen that reasoning before.
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I don't think it's "nonsense" by any means (Riga is in [modern-day] Latvia, hence "Riga Lettoniae"), but I do agree that "Riga Livoniae" sounds like a better fit for the period.
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I mean at the same time, even if you don't think they should be vassals of the Livonian Order, what is paramount to represent is how these were fundamentally entities within the same country. You mention yourself the common diet and defensive arrangements. So either they should be a special subject type, or there should be an IO. What should not happen is the archbishoprics and the Livonian Order+Riga drifting away from each other and joining separate alliance networks or whatever. Wars between them should take the form of civil wars.
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What you are crucially missing is that until 1419 they (Archbishopric of Riga with other Bishoprics and Livonian Order) were frequently bitter rivals and like I said earlier they waged often wars against each other. That rivalry was also partially the reason why 1330 Livonian Order occupied Riga city that originally was under the control of Riga Archbishopric and controlled it for more than a century. This simplification also shows to fail that Bishops weren't independent actors but were all under Archbishop.
Also keep in mind that this "drifting apart" happened during Livonian War. Reval seeked help from Sweden, Ösel-Wiek seeked help from Denmark and Courland with Riga seeked help from Polish-Lithuania. This search became fatal for the Livonian Confederation. Because representative of Denmark (brother of the king) switched sides then after the war most of the Ösel-Wiek went to Sweden instead and Denmark only got Ösel (Saaremaa) island.
I am saying that they should either be a special subject type or members of an IO.
How is the disintegration of the Livonian Confederation supposed to be portrayed if we are pretending like it never existed in the first place?
It is very easy, imagine that we do this the way it was originally:
City of Riga TAG gets named Riga. It somehow becomes a monarchy. It becomes the Duchy of Riga.
We name the Archbishopric of Riga also called Riga. It becomes a monarchy. It is named now Duchy of Riga.
Now, how do you distinguish both? Think of this, specially in a MP situation, where speed of reaction is important.
The solution we are using is far from ideal, but at least has some consistency and is the best we could find considering what issues we wanted to avoid.
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Is there gonna be content/flavour regarding the Livonian war(and its order's partition by Poland/Lithuania, Sweden and Denmark)
I think you missed the point of the comment you replied to. I took more issue with it being called "Riga Lettoniae" because "Lettoniae" part is quite nonsensical. Riga Archbishop didn't think of himself as only bishop to Letts (Latvians or Latgallians). Way more logical pick would have been "Riga Livoniae" because Riga Archbishop held the title "Bishop of Livonia" before that title became archbishopric. Also, later Livonian Confederation got formed that encompassed modern day Estonia and Latvia. And even later most of the Riga Archbishop's territory fell under the duchy of Livonia in the Commonwealth and Swedish Livonia when those lands were part of Swedish Empire.
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They were known as the Ugalased as well as Uguanians, Ugannians and Ungannians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ungannians
The parts on Pskov could go to the Russia feedback whenever that is due. The borders in the shape of the letter 'P' were starting to grow on me though.
Hopefully, the borders for the Estonian and Latvian locations would look better after another pass. For example, the blocky extension of Wolmar into Estonia up to Võrtsjärv is out of place.
Borders reflecting the routes taken along roads and bodies of water as people moved between towns, like connections between nodes, would be nice.
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I am well aware of that. But those names are more heavily tied to Ugandi and not Southern Estonian as a whole. Ugandi is a tribe that excisted prior Crusades, but was conquered and destroyed more than a century before the game start.
Ugandi County - Wikipedia
How strongly exactly do you think "Ugallian" should be separated from Estonian? Linguistic differences are not sufficient, I think we should be looking for evidence that people at the time considered them separate ethnicities; examples of people using the word "Estonian" to exclude southern estonians.
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Linguistic differences aren't enough? What are you on about? It is more different from Estonian than most neighboring languages are from each other when they are in the same language family. They use drastically different vocabulary, letters even (for eample glottal stop and silent k)... and that is not enough of a difference? Language differences are one of the main things that create different cultures and what defines them.
As far as use of "Estonian" goes then that was used by Germans and others to define us. It was only in 19th century that Estonians started to see themselves as Estonians. And in order to polster the numbers Southern Estonian languages (that are more than 2000 years old and drastically different from Estonian) were only seen as mere dialects. Same goes for the smaller Coastal Estonian "dialects" that were more similar to Votic or Isurian than Estonian.
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