Well, in this case, what would the purpose be of including them in the IO if their membership in it means nothing?
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
.png){kind=avatar}
It can be Karelian with strong Veps minority. Or reversed. Veps majority should be right under those locations also.
- 1
Bjarmians are a big historical question mark indeed. ”Bjarmien vallan kukoistus ja tuho” speculates they were Veps, iirc. Been a while since I read that book. But yes, even if Bjarmian culture is included, they shouldn’t really have a majority anywhere, just minorities scattered in the Dvina basin, because local toponymy definitely suggests there were Finnic people living there before the Pomors arrived only 1-3 centuries before 1337 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjarmian_languages). Honestly, keeping the Bjarmian culture would be less controversial and subject to debate than making them Veps, Karelian or Permian Komi.
Last edited:
- 4
- 1
In 1337, there still would have been some Merya pops around, and they would still have been forming the majority in at least a few locations (Russian settlement in 1337 seems to have been pretty much limited to rivers like Unzha, lakes like Galich, and salt mines like Kadyy. The ones west of Galich would have pretty much all assimilated by this point, though.
- 4
I was happily surprised when I noticed that the provinces of Novgorod were reworked to match the historical pyatinas. However, the provinces in Karelia and Kola could be improved a bit to have more historical borders and flavorful names.
First, I want to comment on the provinces belonging to the historical Obonezhskaya Pyatina:
Currently, the in-game province borders follow the historical pyatina very closely, apart from the part in the northwest. Interestingly, the location borders here are still drawn according to the historical border of the pyatina, so there are probably reasons why the historical border wasn't followed. I still think that this should be fixed to match the historical accuracy of the rest of the provinces in Novgorod. This could maybe be done by expanding Pomorye to the west, as the historical Pomor Coast reached all the way west to the Kem river. The Äänisniemi/Zaonezhye peninsula could be given to Aunus Karelia though, as its considered part of the Aunus region.
Relating to the Zaonezhye peninsula, the devs seem to have misinterpreted it as a region on the eastern coast of Lake Onega. In reality the name refers to the peninsula on the northwestern part of the lake, with the Finnish name Äänisniemi literally meaning "Onega Peninsula".
This creates the question of what the current Zaonezhye province should be called. Unfortunately I don't know enough about this region to give a good answer, so take what I say next with a grain of salt. One option would be to name it Pudoga, after the Pudozhsky Uyezd established in 1785. However, I also found a source according to which this area was called Obonezhye, the same name which also refers to the entire Obonezhskaya Pyatina (Obonezhskaya apparently means "the area around Lake Onega").
If Zaonezhye were to be renamed to Obonezhye, then the current Obonezhkaya province should probably be renamed too. Similarly to the current Zaonezhye province, it could maybe be named Lodeynoye Pole after the Lodeynopolsky Uyezd established also in 1785. A thing to also consider is that the border of the two halves of Obonezhkaya Pyatina, the southern Nagornaya half and the northern Zaonezhskaya half (also known as Zaonezhskie Pogosty), ran through this area, though the border was apparently a little unclear. Perhaps the province could just be divided between the surrounding provinces according to this border?
On this map the halves of Obonezhkaya Pyatina are referred to in Finnish as "Ylämaan puoli" and "Äänisniemen pogosta(t)".
Returning to the northwest, the inner parts of East Karelia are currently rather plainly divided between "Inner Aunus Karelia" and "Inner White Karelia". While the provinces are fine, a more flavorful setup would be to have a province based on the historical Lopskie Pogosty region (also known as "Leshaya Lop'", and, at least in Finnish historiography, "Novgorod Lapland" and "Forest Lapland"). The name means "Lapp Pogosts", referring to the Sámi inhabiting the region before it was colonized by the Karelians. The borders of Lopskie Pogosty can be seen on the map above (purple). Note that Suiku was separated from the province around the year 1600.
For Kola, I was able to find a way to divide it in a way very close to the current division. According to Wikipedia, the Sámi dominated pogosts of the Kolsky Uyezd were categorized into three groups (according to saami.su these divisions were known in the 17th and early 18th centuries). The groups were: Terskaya Lapps in the area closely corresponding to current North Kola, Konchanskaya Lapps in the area closely corresponding to the current Western Kola and Leshaya Lapps in the remaining small area west of Kantalahti. As far as I understood, these terms referred to actual geographic areas in addition to their inhabitants. In Russian these are "Terskaya Lop'", "Konchanskaya Lop'" and "Leshaya Lop'". While Leshaya Lop' would be too small to include, North and Western Kola could easily be renamed Terskaya and Konchanskaya Lop', with small border changes to match the historical areas better. More information about the areas can be found on their corresponding pages on saami.su (Terskaya, Konchanskaya, Leshaya).
Another perhaps more intuitive option could be to name West and North Kola after the older two Novgorodian volosts: Kolo and Tre. They seemed to have similar borders to the Sámi groupings and Kolo/Kola would be a more recognizable name. Tre is a variant of Ter, which is the old name of the Kola Peninsula.
Historical map of the Kola Peninsula from this page. Brown is Koncahnskaya Lop', orange is Terskaya Lop', yellow is Leshaya Lop' and red are the Russian and Karelian settlements. The black dots represent uyezd borders.
The situation in south Kola is slightly less clean. The southern coast of the Kola Peninsula is known as the Tersky Coast ("Tersky Bereg" in Russian). According to Wikipedia it encompasses the coast between the mouth of the Varzuga river and Cape Svyatoy Nos. However, according to other sources, such as the map below depicting the historical coasts of the White Sea, the Tersky Coast would've reached all the way west to Umba (Source for the map).
Most importantly, the Tersky Coast originally remained outside Kolsky Uyezd and was rather part of the Dvinsky Uyezd. This can be seen on old maps, such as this one from Wikipedia:
As such, Tersky Coast would make a lot of sense as a province. It would basically correspond to the current South Kola province, but without Raivke and Kantalahti.
This leaves us with the area between Kem and Kantalahti, for which I unfortunately wasn't able to find any matching administrative divisions from the time period of the game. There was the Kemsky Uyezd established in 175, which (came to) encompass the area (including the northern parts of the Lopskie Pogosty). I'm saying came to because many older maps of it don't seem to show it with Kantalahti, instead Kantalahti was part of the Kolsky Uyezd at the time. One flavorful historical name for the southern part of the area was Karel'sky Bereg (in English "the Karelian Coast"). The coast near Kanatahti on the other hand was known as the Kantalahti Coast. Though I have no objectively good name for the area, I like Karel'sky Bereg.
Putting these ideas together, here's how an improved province setup could look like. It's not perfect, and I hope that people who possibly know more would give their input. My understanding of East Karelian administrative history isn't nearly as deep as Finnish administrative history.
I drew the border according to existing location borders, but the borders of Lopskie Pogosty could be tweaked to match the historical ones. I also gave Alakurtti to Kemi Lappmark to match the Swedish-Russian border that eventually developed there. I also renamed Aunus Karelia to the Russian Olonets. Ideally Alakurtti and other Finnish Lapland locations should also be reworked to match historical Sámi siidas, like I suggested in my Scandinavia feedback post, but that will hopefully be addressed in the Scandinavia feedback.
Edit: I added the Obonezhkaya province back with the name Mezhozerye, which seemed to roughly refer to the territory of the province. (Post where I explained it)
I also have a few small comments about Kola, which I said on a post on the Scandinavia thread with better explanations:
I also collected some sources for Sámi location names when working on Scandinavia feedback. Hopefully they'll be helpful:
First, I want to comment on the provinces belonging to the historical Obonezhskaya Pyatina:
Currently, the in-game province borders follow the historical pyatina very closely, apart from the part in the northwest. Interestingly, the location borders here are still drawn according to the historical border of the pyatina, so there are probably reasons why the historical border wasn't followed. I still think that this should be fixed to match the historical accuracy of the rest of the provinces in Novgorod. This could maybe be done by expanding Pomorye to the west, as the historical Pomor Coast reached all the way west to the Kem river. The Äänisniemi/Zaonezhye peninsula could be given to Aunus Karelia though, as its considered part of the Aunus region.
Relating to the Zaonezhye peninsula, the devs seem to have misinterpreted it as a region on the eastern coast of Lake Onega. In reality the name refers to the peninsula on the northwestern part of the lake, with the Finnish name Äänisniemi literally meaning "Onega Peninsula".
This creates the question of what the current Zaonezhye province should be called. Unfortunately I don't know enough about this region to give a good answer, so take what I say next with a grain of salt. One option would be to name it Pudoga, after the Pudozhsky Uyezd established in 1785. However, I also found a source according to which this area was called Obonezhye, the same name which also refers to the entire Obonezhskaya Pyatina (Obonezhskaya apparently means "the area around Lake Onega").
If Zaonezhye were to be renamed to Obonezhye, then the current Obonezhkaya province should probably be renamed too. Similarly to the current Zaonezhye province, it could maybe be named Lodeynoye Pole after the Lodeynopolsky Uyezd established also in 1785. A thing to also consider is that the border of the two halves of Obonezhkaya Pyatina, the southern Nagornaya half and the northern Zaonezhskaya half (also known as Zaonezhskie Pogosty), ran through this area, though the border was apparently a little unclear. Perhaps the province could just be divided between the surrounding provinces according to this border?
On this map the halves of Obonezhkaya Pyatina are referred to in Finnish as "Ylämaan puoli" and "Äänisniemen pogosta(t)".
Returning to the northwest, the inner parts of East Karelia are currently rather plainly divided between "Inner Aunus Karelia" and "Inner White Karelia". While the provinces are fine, a more flavorful setup would be to have a province based on the historical Lopskie Pogosty region (also known as "Leshaya Lop'", and, at least in Finnish historiography, "Novgorod Lapland" and "Forest Lapland"). The name means "Lapp Pogosts", referring to the Sámi inhabiting the region before it was colonized by the Karelians. The borders of Lopskie Pogosty can be seen on the map above (purple). Note that Suiku was separated from the province around the year 1600.
For Kola, I was able to find a way to divide it in a way very close to the current division. According to Wikipedia, the Sámi dominated pogosts of the Kolsky Uyezd were categorized into three groups (according to saami.su these divisions were known in the 17th and early 18th centuries). The groups were: Terskaya Lapps in the area closely corresponding to current North Kola, Konchanskaya Lapps in the area closely corresponding to the current Western Kola and Leshaya Lapps in the remaining small area west of Kantalahti. As far as I understood, these terms referred to actual geographic areas in addition to their inhabitants. In Russian these are "Terskaya Lop'", "Konchanskaya Lop'" and "Leshaya Lop'". While Leshaya Lop' would be too small to include, North and Western Kola could easily be renamed Terskaya and Konchanskaya Lop', with small border changes to match the historical areas better. More information about the areas can be found on their corresponding pages on saami.su (Terskaya, Konchanskaya, Leshaya).
Another perhaps more intuitive option could be to name West and North Kola after the older two Novgorodian volosts: Kolo and Tre. They seemed to have similar borders to the Sámi groupings and Kolo/Kola would be a more recognizable name. Tre is a variant of Ter, which is the old name of the Kola Peninsula.
Historical map of the Kola Peninsula from this page. Brown is Koncahnskaya Lop', orange is Terskaya Lop', yellow is Leshaya Lop' and red are the Russian and Karelian settlements. The black dots represent uyezd borders.
The situation in south Kola is slightly less clean. The southern coast of the Kola Peninsula is known as the Tersky Coast ("Tersky Bereg" in Russian). According to Wikipedia it encompasses the coast between the mouth of the Varzuga river and Cape Svyatoy Nos. However, according to other sources, such as the map below depicting the historical coasts of the White Sea, the Tersky Coast would've reached all the way west to Umba (Source for the map).
Most importantly, the Tersky Coast originally remained outside Kolsky Uyezd and was rather part of the Dvinsky Uyezd. This can be seen on old maps, such as this one from Wikipedia:
As such, Tersky Coast would make a lot of sense as a province. It would basically correspond to the current South Kola province, but without Raivke and Kantalahti.
This leaves us with the area between Kem and Kantalahti, for which I unfortunately wasn't able to find any matching administrative divisions from the time period of the game. There was the Kemsky Uyezd established in 175, which (came to) encompass the area (including the northern parts of the Lopskie Pogosty). I'm saying came to because many older maps of it don't seem to show it with Kantalahti, instead Kantalahti was part of the Kolsky Uyezd at the time. One flavorful historical name for the southern part of the area was Karel'sky Bereg (in English "the Karelian Coast"). The coast near Kanatahti on the other hand was known as the Kantalahti Coast. Though I have no objectively good name for the area, I like Karel'sky Bereg.
Putting these ideas together, here's how an improved province setup could look like. It's not perfect, and I hope that people who possibly know more would give their input. My understanding of East Karelian administrative history isn't nearly as deep as Finnish administrative history.
I drew the border according to existing location borders, but the borders of Lopskie Pogosty could be tweaked to match the historical ones. I also gave Alakurtti to Kemi Lappmark to match the Swedish-Russian border that eventually developed there. I also renamed Aunus Karelia to the Russian Olonets. Ideally Alakurtti and other Finnish Lapland locations should also be reworked to match historical Sámi siidas, like I suggested in my Scandinavia feedback post, but that will hopefully be addressed in the Scandinavia feedback
.Edit: I added the Obonezhkaya province back with the name Mezhozerye, which seemed to roughly refer to the territory of the province. (Post where I explained it)
I also have a few small comments about Kola, which I said on a post on the Scandinavia thread with better explanations:
- Prirechnyi is too recent and should be merged with Petsamo.
- I wasn't able to identify Koliskoj. It might refer to the siida of Kuolajärvi, but that would be on the Finnish side of the border. A better name would be Hirvasjärvi (Rus: Girvasozero, Akkala Sámi: Sââ´rvesjäu´rr).
- Mootka is misspelled and it should be Muotka.
- Kola should be Kuola in Finnish. (Assuming that all the location names in Kola are in Finnish. Hopefully they will be given Sámi names too when a Sámi language is added.)
- The area of Kiestinki used to have a Sámi siida, which in North Sámi was known as Oaivejávri (in another Sámi language its name is Bejauri, but I'm not sure which language). Perhaps this could be the used for the Sámi name of the location?
I also collected some sources for Sámi location names when working on Scandinavia feedback. Hopefully they'll be helpful:
- https://web.archive.org/web/20240827160647/https://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust269/sust269.pdf (Has a list of place names at the end)
- https://ortodoks.org/Kirkeside/NO/sider/TEMA5/Tema5B.htm (Names in Sámi and Norwegian)
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sami_dialects_and_settlements_in_Russia_map.svg (A bunch of names for Sámi siidas in Kola if you scroll down)
Attachments
Last edited:
- 8
- 3
- 2
I think keeping an exonym as a separate culture is more controversial than just assigning at least somehow but without it.
The wiki page you link says that toponyms were Finnic (Veps is a part of it) or Finno-Ugric (both Veps and Komi). So it can be any one of them.
Still, I think there is no base that separate culture existed. And I don’t feel like creating one. For example Slavic people called Scandinavians Varyagi, should that be a culture somewhere? Saw that someone claimed it meant specifically Swedish people in Finland.
- 2
- 1
Process of elimination really, since the area was not yet Pomor, nor was it Karelian either. There's Veps settlements in northern Onega but I'm not sure if those existed anymore in the 14th century. And if Soroka and Vygozero are Saami it would make sense to make Sumsky Posad and Unezhma Saami as well. Maloshuyka could be argued to make more sense to be Pomor instead even if it is anachronistic. There is a Nyukhcha river in the area which is considered to be a Saami hydronym meaning swan. Perhaps the Veps territory could be expanded along the Onega river as there doesn't seem to have been that many Russian settlement there yet beyond Onega itself, and even that is very dubious if did exist. And there is no reason to believe that undocumented Pomor settlements predated these documented ones or that they were that much older than previously thought. Perhaps some Karelian traders or foragers could exist in the area.
There is also a disputed association with archaeological sites lacking ceramics being Saami, and Sumozero is within Sumsky posad.
Last edited:
- 1
Well that's the problem, we don't know enough about them to definitely assign them to another culture. If there is "no base that separate culture existed", then multiple historians would disagree with you, while others would agree. Having a "Bjarmian" culture is the safe guess due to the lack of knowledge. Also, even the origin of the word "Bjarmian" isn't clear, there's a theory that it comes from finnic "Perämaa" or ugric "Permia", so you're just assuming it's an exonym when we don't actually know if it is. (edit: also, Finnic/Finnish is an exonym too...) And if the name is the problem, they could for example be called Toima (https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toimalaiset). Bjarmia's disintegration is also estimated to have happened only by 1200s, so they would not yet be fully assimilated and some cultural remnant of Bjarmia would definitely still exist by 1337.
Like I said, having a separate Bjarmian culture avoids a lot of speculative guesswork and headache. If you want them to be Veps, there would be a lot of counterarguments. If you want them to be Komi, there would be a lot of counterarguments. If you want them to be Karelian, there would be a lot of counterarguments.
Last edited:
- 4
- 1
But having a Bjarmian culture where? Where exactly would it be necessary?
In hypothetical location of Bjarmaland in northern Dvina basin, as I said in another message of mine. Possibly a little in Kola peninsula as well, though that's more reaching. Necessary for historical accuracy which is the whole point of this thread. Again, it does not have to be called "bjarmian", but there has to be some representation of native finno-ugric population in the general area of Dvina.
If it's specifically the term "bjarmian" that bothers you, another option is Chude/Zavolochian Chude, though not sure that's ideal.
Attachments
Last edited:
- 2
I already suggested both...I know it's just replacing a name, but how about Toiman? They're actually accounted to have lived in the area they would be in the game, and their historicity is much better ascertained.
Toimalaiset – Wikipedia
fi.wikipedia.orgAn alternative would be to call it Zavolochye Chud', although that is a mouthful. As for the cultural attribution of Zavolochye Chud' themselves, it seems they were close to the Veps.Nizhnyaya Toyma (river) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
View attachment 1228958
Also to clarify why a culture is needed, there's currently a big Pomor-sized gap in the area that was at this time period at least partially inhabited by finno-ugric peoples. Adding Veps, Karelian or Komi here would be disconnected from the other areas where those cultures are prevalent. In the end, what they are called doesn't really matter, but I feel like Toyma/Toima/Chude would be more familiar to a Russian audience than an English one, who would know Bjarmia from previous PDX games at the very least.
- 3
- 1
Sorry I must've missed that. Although I disagree on removing all the Pomors from the map. There's certain settlements such as Yemetsk and Pinega, and the Pomors would become very important in settling the White sea coasts in the next century. Some locations with no attested settlements could be made Bjarmian/Toiman/Zavolochye Chud'.
- 4
The locations in Korela should definitely be tweaked to allow for the creation of the historical borders of the 1721 Treaty of Nystad. The treaty was signed a whole 100 years before the end of the game, after all. The locations in Viborgs Län should also follow these borders.
There's also a few location names in Korela and Ingria which come from settlements that were too insignificant during the game's timeframe to have the whole location be named after them. I already gave the explanations in my post on the original Russia thread, so here's the recommended changes without explanations:
The way the Karelians, Savonians and Tavastians are currently depicted through SoPs is inaccurate, as these tribes had pretty much already been conquered and baptized by 1337. There was no big block of Muinaisusko believers defending the old faith in the interior of Finland, rather, the reason why Sweden and Novgorod didn't have much control there was that they hadn't been permanently settled by the Finnish tribes yet. However, this doesn't mean that there should be no Muinaisusko in Finland, as there still probably were some believers. It would be more appropriate to sprinkle them among the Christians as a minority, though the Kvens should probably be majority pagan.
Even in the 1540s Finnish settlement hadn't yet expanded north of what Sweden and Novgorod currently control in the game (though the game is innaccurate in Sweden not owning all of Viborgs Län and southern parts of Savonia, like was agreed in the Treaty of Nöteborg). For the Karelians specifically, their core lands were on the Karelian isthmus and the northern shores of Lake Ladoga, with settlement of the northern parts of the Korela province being in progress. The earliest mentions of settlement in northern Korela are only a bit after the beginning of the game, from the 15th century, as far as I'm aware. On my Scandinavia post, I suggested having Karelians as a minority there, with Sámi as a majority, though you could probably also have no Karelians there at all yet. The same could also apply to Tavastians and Savonians, as the only Tavastians and Savonians "living" in inner Finland were hunters and fishers who lived there temporarily for parts of a year, and the expansion of the tribes would've meant the expansion of Swedish territory.
The culture setup I suggested on my Scandinavia feedback post, with Karelians added in Ostrobothnia. I also drew where I think the country borders should go in red.
This brings into question if the Tavastian, Savonian and Karelian SoPs should exist at all, at least as independent entities situated outside of national borders. However, I think the Karelian SoP should be preserved as a subject of Novgorod, mainly because of the Karelians living outside of Korela in Ostrobothnia.
These Karelians were aligned with Novgorod and were used by Novgorod as a foothold in the region against Swedish expansion. To me an SoP feels like a perfect way to represent the situation, as Novgorod's control of the area was too weak for it to be counted as part of Novgorod, but there were people there who were loyal to Novgorod. As for the territory of the SoP, it should probably match Karelian culture, minus the parts controlled by Sweden, as otherwise the only Karelians part of the SoP would be the ones living on the Bothnian coast. There should not be any or only very few Karelian pops connecting their core areas in Korela with Ostrobothnia.
In general the colonization if inner Finland and Karelia wasn't really Sweden and Novgorod expanding further into Finnic land, but rather them using the Finns and Karelians they already ruled over to settle further inland to claim territory. This is what mainly determined the borders in the north.
There's also a few location names in Korela and Ingria which come from settlements that were too insignificant during the game's timeframe to have the whole location be named after them. I already gave the explanations in my post on the original Russia thread, so here's the recommended changes without explanations:
- Lieksa to Pielisjärvi
- Joensuu to Liperi (Swe. Libelits)
- Värtsilä to Tohmajärvi
- Loimola to Suistamo (Swe. Sujstamo, South Kar. Suistama)
- Konevets maybe to Sakkula (I don't know if Konevets island and its monastery were significant in any way. Maybe it was administratively or culturaly significant and the name is justified.)
- Markovo to Loppi (Swe. Loppis)
The way the Karelians, Savonians and Tavastians are currently depicted through SoPs is inaccurate, as these tribes had pretty much already been conquered and baptized by 1337. There was no big block of Muinaisusko believers defending the old faith in the interior of Finland, rather, the reason why Sweden and Novgorod didn't have much control there was that they hadn't been permanently settled by the Finnish tribes yet. However, this doesn't mean that there should be no Muinaisusko in Finland, as there still probably were some believers. It would be more appropriate to sprinkle them among the Christians as a minority, though the Kvens should probably be majority pagan.
Even in the 1540s Finnish settlement hadn't yet expanded north of what Sweden and Novgorod currently control in the game (though the game is innaccurate in Sweden not owning all of Viborgs Län and southern parts of Savonia, like was agreed in the Treaty of Nöteborg). For the Karelians specifically, their core lands were on the Karelian isthmus and the northern shores of Lake Ladoga, with settlement of the northern parts of the Korela province being in progress. The earliest mentions of settlement in northern Korela are only a bit after the beginning of the game, from the 15th century, as far as I'm aware. On my Scandinavia post, I suggested having Karelians as a minority there, with Sámi as a majority, though you could probably also have no Karelians there at all yet. The same could also apply to Tavastians and Savonians, as the only Tavastians and Savonians "living" in inner Finland were hunters and fishers who lived there temporarily for parts of a year, and the expansion of the tribes would've meant the expansion of Swedish territory.
The culture setup I suggested on my Scandinavia feedback post, with Karelians added in Ostrobothnia. I also drew where I think the country borders should go in red.
This brings into question if the Tavastian, Savonian and Karelian SoPs should exist at all, at least as independent entities situated outside of national borders. However, I think the Karelian SoP should be preserved as a subject of Novgorod, mainly because of the Karelians living outside of Korela in Ostrobothnia.
These Karelians were aligned with Novgorod and were used by Novgorod as a foothold in the region against Swedish expansion. To me an SoP feels like a perfect way to represent the situation, as Novgorod's control of the area was too weak for it to be counted as part of Novgorod, but there were people there who were loyal to Novgorod. As for the territory of the SoP, it should probably match Karelian culture, minus the parts controlled by Sweden, as otherwise the only Karelians part of the SoP would be the ones living on the Bothnian coast. There should not be any or only very few Karelian pops connecting their core areas in Korela with Ostrobothnia.
In general the colonization if inner Finland and Karelia wasn't really Sweden and Novgorod expanding further into Finnic land, but rather them using the Finns and Karelians they already ruled over to settle further inland to claim territory. This is what mainly determined the borders in the north.
Last edited:
- 6
- 4
- 1
1. IOs will have "in bulk" policies so as to no micromanage everyone correct?
2. There will be vassals of vassals? Muscovy in a way was the gatekeeper to the other Russian principalities but I guess instead of a tiered vassal system for the Russian lands, the Russians will start in an IO that belongs to the Golden Horde.
3. Was there any discussion regarding renaming IO as it sounds a bit anachronistic.
2. There will be vassals of vassals? Muscovy in a way was the gatekeeper to the other Russian principalities but I guess instead of a tiered vassal system for the Russian lands, the Russians will start in an IO that belongs to the Golden Horde.
3. Was there any discussion regarding renaming IO as it sounds a bit anachronistic.
Removing all Pomors? Lol, I never suggested that. I said multiple times the Bjarmians (or whatever they would be called) should be a minority pop, not sure if they should be the majority in any location, maybe a few as you said.
Yeah originally it was just gonna be about Karelia but it was easier to talk about all the Finnish cultures together. Also, I'm not often very organized when writing lol.Doesn’t much of this belong in the Scandinavia thread? Finland isn’t part of Russia
Pretty sure they just showed the area off because its connected to East Karelia which is considered part of Russia feedback
- 1
It should be called Novhorod-Siverskyi according to Ruthenian (Ukrainian) pronunciation, if it have already being used for the rest of Ruthenian lands with "proto-Ukrainian" population, which were the case for Novhorod-Siverskyi settlement and the lands around in 1337. Same for Starodub (Starodub-Siverskyi principality), which also had basically the same population as Novhorod-Siverskyi and was under some sort of control of GDL (Lithuania) and even had it's dynasty (Gediminids) as rulers later on.
- 3
- 2
- 1
Can you rename the principality of Galich-Mersky to just Galich? It would make sense for the location to be called as such since it was mentioned roughly 100 years earlier but it's not the case atm, also I'm pretty sure that officially the principality was just called Galich since the name Mersky comes from the Meryans which are the Uralic people that uses to live there and I doub't that the Rus leaders liked to affiliate with them
Although that's just what I think, if someone wants to change my mind with evidence be welcomed
Although that's just what I think, if someone wants to change my mind with evidence be welcomed
- 1
I think a few more impassable wastelands should be added in the areas where no one lived even in the 19th centuryHello, and welcome to another Tinto Maps feedback review! This week, we will be taking a look at Russia, a very anticipated review (which Johan already advanced in some maps last week).
A note before we start on the area that we've covered in this update. We've focused it on the core Russian lands, plus the Kola Peninsula. This means we've not yet updated the lands of Vyatka and Perm, nor those ruled by the Golden Horde. These will be covered in the future Tinto Maps feedback post, probably the one for the Steppes and Western Siberia. With that said, let's take a look at the list of changes, and then start with maps!
ADDITIONS
Added the following:
CORRECTIONS
- Locations (153+ 55 Lakes + 6 Wastelands)
- Andomsky Pogost
- Ashevo
- Azeevo
- Badozhsky
- Beloe
- Berezhnyany
- Bernovo
- Bezhanitsy
- Bibirevo
- Bogorodskoye
- Bogorodskoye (Pereyaslavl)
- Bolshevo
- Bor Volgo
- Borisogleb
- Brody (Tver)
- Burga
- Chelmuzhi
- Chuzboy
- Demyanovo
- Drokov
- Dubok
- Dubrovna
- Fomin Gorodok
- Georgevskoye
- Glukhovichi to Perevitska
- Gorodechnya
- Goroditse
- Gruzino
- Ilovna
- Ivangorod
- Izboishchi
- Izdeshkovo
- Izori
- Karniki
- Katyn
- Khakhaly
- Khatun
- Khlepen
- Kholm
- Khotiml
- Khotmyzh
- Khotsy
- Kinerma
- Klepiki
- Knyazhichi
- Knyazhoye
- Koi
- Koloshma
- Koponovo
- Korenevo
- Kosozhichi
- Kozlov
- Ktsyn
- Kubenskoye
- Kulotino
- Kurba
- Kuretsk
- Kurmysh
- Kuzhbal
- Lezhnevo
- Luda
- Lyady
- Lyakhovichy
- Lyuban
- Lyubichi
- Lyubun
- Lyubno
- Maryovo
- Megra
- Megrino
- Meletovo
- Meshchersk
- Mezhutka
- Mikhailovka
- Mikshino
- Mikulino (Tver)
- Moshok
- Mushkov Pogost
- Nadvoitsy
- Nikolo Dor
- Nikol'skoye
- Nizhel'skoye
- Nuorttijärvi
- Obolensk
- Odintsovo
- Opalkova
- Orekhovna
- Ostrechiny
- Pashozero
- Petrovsk
- Podberezye
- Pogoreloye
- Pogostishche
- Poreevo
- Pribuzh
- (Krasnye) Prudy
- (Serebryanye) Prudy
- Pryazha
- Przemysl
- Pustosel
- Putyvl
- Radogosch
- Rakitnya
- Raznezhye
- Revny
- Rogachevo
- Ropsk
- Rozhalovo
- Rzhavets
- Rzheva Pustaya
- Sevsk
- Shal'skii
- Shatur
- Shchuchye
- Shenga-Kurya
- Shoptovo
- Shui
- Sol Velikaya
- Spasskoye
- Spasskoye (Lyskovo)
- Starodub-Votsky
- Sudai
- Suikujärvi
- Sumino
- Svinort
- Svir
- Talitsa
- Tervenichi
- Tesov
- Trufany
- Ust Kuloy
- Valday
- Veliky Porog
- Verba
- Vereya
- Vertyazin
- Verzhavsk
- Vetlitsy
- Vichuga
- Visokoye
- Vlasovo
- Vodlozero
- Vognema
- Volkona
- Volodimerets
- Voronizh
- Vorotynsk
- Vorotynsk (Novosil)
- Vshchizh
- Yeszk
- Yorga
- Zhulino
- Zolotkovo
- Lakes
- Lake Bol'shoye Rovkul'skoye
- Lake Chudzjavr
- Lake Dvin'ye
- Lake Engozero
- Lake Galichkoye
- Lake Gimoly
- Lake Golodnaya Guba
- Lake Goltsovoye
- Lake Imandra
- Lake Kamennoye
- Lake Kenozero
- Lake Kenozero (Near Ladoga)
- Lake Kolozero
- Lake Kolvitskoye
- Lake Konchozero
- Lake Kozhozero
- Lake Kovdozero
- Lake Kovzhskoye
- Lake Kukkureozero
- Lake Lednikovoye
- Lake Leksozero
- Lake Lindozero
- Lake Lizhmozero
- Lake Lokht'yarvi
- Lake Lovozero
- Lake Lyoksmozhero
- Lake Maslozero
- Lake Nero
- Lake Notozero
- Lake Nyuk
- Lake Otradnoye
- Lake Pal'vozero
- Lake Peschanka-To
- Lake Pleshcheyevo
- Lake Pyaozero
- Lake Seletsy
- Lake Seliger
- Lake Sergozero
- Lake Shotozero
- Lake Sredneye Kuyto
- Lake Sumozero
- Lake Suoyarvi
- Lake Syamozero
- Lake Tishkeozero
- Lake Topozero
- Lake Tulos
- Lake Tungudskoye
- Lake Umbozero
- Lake Verkhneye Kuyto
- Lake Volgo
- Lake Vyalozero
- Lake Vygozero
- Lake Yelmozero
- Lake Yenozero
- Lake Zhizhitskoye
- Wastelands
- Divided many Wastelands in more pieces.
- TAGs (15)
- Fomin-Berezuesk
- Galich-Mersky
- Gorodets
- Klin
- Kozelsk
- Novgorod-Seversky
- Pronsk
- Rylsk
- Starodub
- Suzdal
- Tarusa
- Uglich
- Vladimir
- Yuriev-Polsky
- Zubtsov
- Characters
- fmb_fyodor_konstantinovich_krasny
- glm_davyd_konstantinovich_rurik
- glm_fyodor_davydovich_rurik
- glm_ivan_fyodorovich_rurik
- kch_mstislav_mikhailovich_rurik
- kch_svyatoslav_mstislavich_rurik
- kch_panteleimon_mstislavich_rurik
- kch_vasily_panteleimonovich_rurik
- kch_andrei_mstislavich_rurik
- kzk_titus_mstislavich_rurik
- mos_sophia_yuriovna_rurik
- prk_alexander_mikhailovich_rurik
- prk_mikhail_yaroslavich_rurik
- prk_yaroslav_alexandrovich_rurik
- rya_konstantin_romanovich_rurik
- rya_yaroslav_romanovich_rurik
- tve_konstantin_mikhailovich_rurik
- trs_yuri_mikhailovich_rurik
- trs_konstantin_yurievich_rurik
- yrv_yaroslav_ivanovich_rurik
- Dynamic Names
- Added tons of Dynamic Names
Renamed the following:
Cultures
- Locations (only corrections. Additionally renamed all locations to standardized form):
- Aksentevo to Berezovets
- Alexandrov to Alexandrovskaya Sloboda
- Ardatovo to Sergach
- Beloye to Lipno (Lipnaya Gorka)
- Belinsky to Chembar
- Bezhetsk to Gorodetsk
- Bolshoy Dvor to Ozerevo
- Bolshoye Ignatovo to Altyshevo
- Cheltsa to Kobyl'e
- Cherepovets to Cherepoves
- Dalen Olina to Dalniye Zelenstsy
- Demyansk to Demon
- Dyatkovo to Foshnya
- Grad Mersky to Galich
- Hotoshino to Khotoshino
- Kaduy to Nikol'skoye
- Karhumagi to Karhumägi
- Kashkaransj to Kashkarantsy
- Kexholm to Korela
- Kharkiv to Donetsk
- Khoza to Zaostrovskoye
- Kildon to Kiltinä
- Koivisto to Beryozovskoye
- Kolgaczich to Unezhma
- Koporje to Kopor'ye
- Korop to Melnya
- Kovoda to Kovda
- Kovrov to Rozhdestveno
- Kurovskoye to Rogozh
- Lahdenpohja to Kurkijoki
- Laptevo to Lopasnya
- Lekanstroj to Akkala
- Liissila to Lisino
- Likhoslavl to Mednoye
- Limenda to Pyras
- Lindoserskij to Lindjärvi
- Lokot to Boldyzh
- Loymola to Loimola
- Luskoje to Staropolye
- Lyudinovo to Fominichi
- Mafelskoj to Maaselkä
- Makaryev to Unzha
- Malaya Shuika to Maloshuyka
- Maly Arkhangelsky to Tagin
- Markkova to Markobo
- Maselskiij to Maselga
- Mena to Snovsk
- Michurinsk to Kozlov
- Mökhö to Möhkö
- Molouskoj to Mootka
- Morshansk to Morsha
- Nev to Nebolchi
- Noginsk to Vokhna
- Nöteborg to Oreshek
- Nyen to Neva
- Okulovka to Lyubytino
- Onegaborg to Shuya
- Onega Peninsula to Nyonoksa
- Opoka to Zaplyusye
- Oryol to Zvenigorod
- Paaanajärvi to Paanajärvi
- Padanskij to Puatane
- Panoimskoj to Panoi
- Parfino to Nalyuchi
- Peszenskoj to Luujärvi
- Petrovskoye to Izberdey
- Petzinka to Pechenga
- Pialiska to Pyalitsa
- Pienika to Pieninka
- Plaskoye to Gogol
- Pochinok to Belik
- Podporozhye to Vinnitsy
- Podyuga to Charonda
- Porchov to Porkhov
- Poretskoye to Atrat
- Prokhorovka to Muzhech
- Riistina to Ristiina
- Rugosenskoj to Rukajärvi
- Sarai to Kazari
- Seletskij to Sellinkylä
- Sem Ostronoj to Semiostrov
- Semtsejerskij to Semčojärvi
- Serdobsk to Serdobinskaya
- Seredyna-Buda to Znobov
- Sergiyev Posad to Yanovo
- Shakhanovka to Krasavino
- Shenkursk to Vaga
- Shugozero to Spirkovo
- Sigovets to Vazhiny
- Sokol to Arkhangelskoye
- Soligalich to Sol' Galichskaya
- Soma to Saarijoki
- Sonoshinskoi to Sumsky Posad
- Spasskij to Vygozero
- Stanovoye to Ploskoye
- Starababa to Olenitsa
- Stupino to Koshira
- Suenokele to Suonikylä
- Svetenoes to Svyatoy Nos
- Taldom to Dubna
- Trelina to Tetrino
- Tsareva to Vekshenga
- Tunga to Tunkuo
- Tutayev to Romanov
- Tyrö to Martyshkino
- Uhtua to Uhtuo
- Ust-Shonosha to Tavrenga
- Ustyuzhna-Zheleznopolskaya to Ustyuzhna
- Vartsila to Värtsilä
- Vashky to Vashki
- Vaskina Polyana to Staraya Ryazan
- Vesyegonsk to Ves Yogonskaya
- Voigoma to Kriitina
- Volnushki to Luchani
- Volokolamsk to Volok
- Volovo to Terbuny
- Vyazniki to Yaropolch
- Warshiga to Varzuga
- Yagnitsa to Lukoves
- Yegoryevsk to Vysokoye
- Yershichi to Zaroy
- Zadonsk to Teshevka
- Zaozyorye to Ustye
- Zaraysk to Rostislavl-Ryazansky
- Zhizdra to Usty
- Zhizhitsa to Zhizhets
Raw Goods
- Reworked the spread of cultures in the region.
Terrain and Vegetation
- Changed several Raw Goods as suggested.
Locations
- Total Review.
- Redrew several Locations.
Countries
View attachment 1228092
View attachment 1228093
In the first screenshot you can see the wider picture of the region, while in the second, we have the Russian Principalities more in detail. The main change here, besides the additions, is that most of them are now under the Tatar Yoke. Speaking of that, two more screenshots, the first with the IO itself, the second with the lands ruled by Ivan I 'Kalita', Prince of Muscovy:
View attachment 1228097
View attachment 1228098
The second screenshot is taken playing as Novgorod, which has an elective system to pick its ruler, the current one being Ivan I 'Kalita'; you may see that Pskov and Orshek are subjects of Novgorod, while the other Principalities share with Novgorod a Personal Union under the aforementioned Prince of Muscovy.
Dynasties
View attachment 1228100
The map of Russia is much clear when you just take into account the ruling dynasties...
Societies of Pops
View attachment 1228101
A map mode that we hadn't revealed yet when we first presented Russia, as a few more below.
Locations
View attachment 1228103
View attachment 1228104
View attachment 1228105
Provinces
View attachment 1228106
Areas
View attachment 1228107
Terrain
View attachment 1228108
View attachment 1228109
View attachment 1228110
Russia is in general terms a cold, flat, and forested region. The climate has already been changed to the new standard (1901 distribution). Please let us know any further terrain suggestions for us!
Development
View attachment 1228111
View attachment 1228113
Another new map, the development one. There's a big difference between the core lands, and the outer ones.
Harbors
View attachment 1228114
A few interesting harbors here.
Cultures
View attachment 1228115
Some tweaks here, as we now have Bjarmian, Polatskian, and Smolenskian spreading over the Russian map. It's WIP, so suggestions are welcome.
Languages
View attachment 1228116
View attachment 1228117
View attachment 1228118
This is our current proposal for Russia, following the feedback received, although take it as non-final. First, there are two Languages, Russian and Ruthenian, both belonging to the Slavic language family. Each of them is divided into two different 'Dialects' (remember, this is a gameplay term, as they're closer to real-life languages), Novgorodian and Russian for Russian, and Belarusian and Ukrainian for Ruthenian. The later terms are a bit modern for 1337, but we wanted to show here clearly what linguistical spheres we wanted to portray; we will gladly receive suggestions to potentially change these names for more flavorish ones if you think so. Finally, the third map is the Court Language, as you may notice because of having Latin over the Livonian and Prussian lands.
Religions
View attachment 1228124
Not many changes in the religious map mode. The main one is the portrayal of 'Finnish ancient religion' ('Suomalainen muinaisusko'), which we've called in-game 'Muinaisusko'; please let us know if you like this name, as well.
Raw Materials
View attachment 1228128
View attachment 1228129
I suggest you to make an exercise, and find the differences with the original Tinto Maps...
Markets
View attachment 1228130
Not many differences, but I thought that a bigger picture wouldn't hurt, as taking a look at another endonym possible with our new flavor system, 'Moskva'.
And that's all for today! We'll be reading your feedback to our feedback review (feedback loop!), and replying to your questions, as usual. The next Tinto Maps will be this Friday, the 13th, about Central America. Aaand, we will be able to have one more Tinto Maps Feedback post before the Christmas break, the one devoted to Levant and Egypt, next Monday, the 16th! Cheers!
Maybe something like this? I do now think Luda and Nyonoksa should be removed back
Map is here
Here is a small article about Novgorod's colonisation around Lake Onega. It states that those lands were traversed only by boats in rivers. So there is no need for connection between majority of those locations.
Attachments
Last edited:
- 2
- 2
- 1
This principality had different names. Galich-Mersky, Galish-Dmitrov or just Galich.
Right before the start date, it broke down into just Galich and Dmitrov
Galish-Mersky is the correct name of at least a city
and also, Merya people might have still existed in those areas
- 2