Thoughts on this range for the Bjarmians/Toimans/Zavolochye Chud? Basically a unification of the Vaga, Pinega and Toima "pagans" which were converted during the 15th century.
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Thoughts on this range for the Bjarmians/Toimans/Zavolochye Chud? Basically a unification of the Vaga, Pinega and Toima "pagans" which were converted during the 15th century.
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Extremely hard to say. I had problems searching for data on them in XIII-XIV time period.
Perhaps this book will help you:
К этнической истории Русского Севера (чудь заволочская и славяне).
And a few images:
Also perhaps there is some info in our previous discussion
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Varlaam Vazhsky apparently helped convert Chud along the Vaga in his possessions his grandfather had bought from local Chud elders in 1315.
Преподобный Варлаам Пинежский, Важский, Шенкурский
Краткое житие преподобного Варлаама Пинежского, Важского В миру – Василий. Он был одним из богатейших людей Великого Новгорода и, владея Заволочьем, очень любил этот край.
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Yea, there is definitely a presence there. Question is how much and percentage.Varlaam Vazhsky apparently helped convert Chud along the Vaga in his possessions his grandfather had bought from local Chud elders in 1315.
Преподобный Варлаам Пинежский, Важский, Шенкурский
Краткое житие преподобного Варлаама Пинежского, Важского В миру – Василий. Он был одним из богатейших людей Великого Новгорода и, владея Заволочьем, очень любил этот край.ortox.ru
The book I linked also has other examples if you are interested
But yea, looking more into it, the area you have outlined is more or less aligned with what is said. Maybe even further south to Totma, as there are findings of Chud there. A small minority, perhaps?
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Hello everyone!
First time posting here, so I hope you’ll bear with me. I wanted to bring up an issue regarding the naming of "Boldyzh" in the game. As someone with ancestry from this region and a keen interest in its history, I can confidently say that the name "Boldyzh" as it currently stands is historically inaccurate.
To clarify: Boldyzh (or Болдыж) refers to a settlement located north of the city of Bryansk itself. With that in mind, there’s no way it could correspond to anything near Lokot, where the game places it. This discrepancy needs addressing—both for accuracy and respect toward historical context.
Now, let’s talk about what should replace it. Based on my research and understanding of the region's history, I propose three plausible alternatives:
(By the way Im not refering modern town of Komarichi, founded in 20th centuary, its name is based on region)
Ultimately, the decision rests with the developers. However, leaving the location "Boldyzh" simply cannot be—it’s geographically misplaced and historically misleading. Whether they choose Brasovo, Komarici, or even Radogoshch, any of these options would greatly improve the accuracy and immersion of the game world.
Thanks for reading!
First time posting here, so I hope you’ll bear with me. I wanted to bring up an issue regarding the naming of "Boldyzh" in the game. As someone with ancestry from this region and a keen interest in its history, I can confidently say that the name "Boldyzh" as it currently stands is historically inaccurate.
To clarify: Boldyzh (or Болдыж) refers to a settlement located north of the city of Bryansk itself. With that in mind, there’s no way it could correspond to anything near Lokot, where the game places it. This discrepancy needs addressing—both for accuracy and respect toward historical context.
Now, let’s talk about what should replace it. Based on my research and understanding of the region's history, I propose three plausible alternatives:
1) Brasovo
Brasovo is a historically significant settlement mentioned as early as 1496 in the Lithuanian Metrica. Its origins likely date back to the late 13th century, making it one of the oldest settlements in the area. By the time period depicted in the game, Brasovo would have been one of the largest and most prominent locations nearby. It fits well within the geographical scope and timeline of the setting, making it a strong candidate.
2) Komarici
“Komarici” which refers to the broader region surrounding the area. The name has etymological roots derived from the Latin word commarca , meaning "borderland." This reflects the area’s historical position as a frontier zone between various powers throughout history. If not Brasovo, then Komarici seems like a logical choice due to its descriptive relevance and cultural significance.(By the way Im not refering modern town of Komarichi, founded in 20th centuary, its name is based on region)
3) Radogoshch
Radogoshch is a fortress established in the 11th century. While relatively modest in size compared to other settlements, it undoubtedly existed during the relevant era and played a role in local defense and administration.
Ultimately, the decision rests with the developers. However, leaving the location "Boldyzh" simply cannot be—it’s geographically misplaced and historically misleading. Whether they choose Brasovo, Komarici, or even Radogoshch, any of these options would greatly improve the accuracy and immersion of the game world.
Thanks for reading!
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I originally posted this in another thread back in November. I was asked to post it in the original Russia map thread for Project Caesar. Soon thereafter this thread came out, which I've missed, so I'm reposting my post from November here now. Looks like the points I made are still valid in light of the changes mentioned in the OP of this new thread.
Repost from https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...6th-of-november.1713610/page-37#post-30002807:
The Russians are way too north for 1337. Bar a few monasteries they didn't really settle or assimilate territories north of the Neva and Svir (Syväri) rivers before the 18th century. They never formed a majority on the Karelian Isthmus, save for the city of St. Petersburg itself, until the 19th-20th centuries. The eastern part of the Karelian Isthmus that's Russian in the in-game screenshot was in real-life predominantly Finnish until the 1940s.
This, Eero Kuussaari's vision of the language group situation in 13th-14th centuries[1], is much more historically accurate.
Here is also a map from Wikipedia depicting the situation in the 9th century.[2] By 1337 the situation had not yet changed massively. Indeed there are Russian records of Finnic peoples native to the rural regions around Moscow speaking in their own native tongues as late as the 18th or 19th centuries.
The Veps are also misplaced. They should dominate the area south of the Svir, and as late as the 20th century they were still positioned more westwards than where they are in-game. Veps-speaking areas c. the early 20th century[3]:
Here's also a couple of ethnic (linguistic) maps of Ingria from 1849 and 1933 by Peter von Köppen and Juuso Mustonen respectively, just to show that as late as the 19th and 20th centuries the area was still not predominantly inhabited by Russians, bar St. Petersburg itself, of course. In case the reader is wondering, von Köppen splits the Lutheran Ingrian Finns into the Äyrämöiset (in yellow), Lutheran Karelian Finns largely hailing from the historical Äyräpää County on the western Karelian Isthmus, and into the Savakot (in green), Lutheran Savonian Finns, largely hailing from the historical Province of Savonia.
In 1337 the area between the Neva and roughly the City of Novgorod, in other words roughly the historical definition of Ingria (not the 19th century-20th century one, which is a little different), was inhabited by Karelian Finns and Votes, the former which later in history became known as the Izhorans, when referring specifically to the Orthodox Karelians of Ingria. Though they themselves, if memory serves, continued to regard and call themselves Karelians.
[1]Eero Kuussaari (1935): Suomen suvun tiet
[2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Muromian-map.png
[3]I do not recall the exact source for this map, but I've saved it from a site specialising on Finnic groups. Wikipedia has a similar map without the place names here.
Repost from https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...6th-of-november.1713610/page-37#post-30002807:
The Russians are way too north for 1337. Bar a few monasteries they didn't really settle or assimilate territories north of the Neva and Svir (Syväri) rivers before the 18th century. They never formed a majority on the Karelian Isthmus, save for the city of St. Petersburg itself, until the 19th-20th centuries. The eastern part of the Karelian Isthmus that's Russian in the in-game screenshot was in real-life predominantly Finnish until the 1940s.
This, Eero Kuussaari's vision of the language group situation in 13th-14th centuries[1], is much more historically accurate.
Here is also a map from Wikipedia depicting the situation in the 9th century.[2] By 1337 the situation had not yet changed massively. Indeed there are Russian records of Finnic peoples native to the rural regions around Moscow speaking in their own native tongues as late as the 18th or 19th centuries.
The Veps are also misplaced. They should dominate the area south of the Svir, and as late as the 20th century they were still positioned more westwards than where they are in-game. Veps-speaking areas c. the early 20th century[3]:
Here's also a couple of ethnic (linguistic) maps of Ingria from 1849 and 1933 by Peter von Köppen and Juuso Mustonen respectively, just to show that as late as the 19th and 20th centuries the area was still not predominantly inhabited by Russians, bar St. Petersburg itself, of course. In case the reader is wondering, von Köppen splits the Lutheran Ingrian Finns into the Äyrämöiset (in yellow), Lutheran Karelian Finns largely hailing from the historical Äyräpää County on the western Karelian Isthmus, and into the Savakot (in green), Lutheran Savonian Finns, largely hailing from the historical Province of Savonia.
In 1337 the area between the Neva and roughly the City of Novgorod, in other words roughly the historical definition of Ingria (not the 19th century-20th century one, which is a little different), was inhabited by Karelian Finns and Votes, the former which later in history became known as the Izhorans, when referring specifically to the Orthodox Karelians of Ingria. Though they themselves, if memory serves, continued to regard and call themselves Karelians.
[1]Eero Kuussaari (1935): Suomen suvun tiet
[2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Muromian-map.png
[3]I do not recall the exact source for this map, but I've saved it from a site specialising on Finnic groups. Wikipedia has a similar map without the place names here.
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Shouldn't all Rus' principalities be ruled by the Rurikids? Including Toropets,Novhorod Siverskyi,Mstislavl,Rylsk, Drutsk etc?Dynasties
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will there be flavour for the breaking of the principality Novosil into Odoyev,Belyov and Vorotynsk?
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Posting this here tooI hope the eventual pop changes will add a few remnants of not-yet-assimilated Meryans, Meschera and Eastern Galindians too
Meryans - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Meshchera people - Wikipedia
Galindians - Wikipedia
Golyad language - Wikipedia
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On the naming of Verkhovian/Okan/Ryazanian, couldn't they be called Vyatichi? Of all the ancient East Slavic tribes Vyatichians survived the longest as a distinct group. And there's already Severian right next door.
en.wikipedia.org
Vyatichi - Wikipedia
Theoretically possible, but I like Verkhovian the most, it does not sound archaic, nor anachronistic, the adjective is geographically and historically precise..On the naming of Verkhovian/Okan/Ryazanian, couldn't they be called Vyatichi? Of all the ancient East Slavic tribes Vyatichians survived the longest as a distinct group. And there's already Severian right next door.
Vyatichi - Wikipedia
In any case it's a pity they did not add another culture to cover the territory of Verkhovian Duchies.
P.S. Severian culture is a bit another thing, Severia had become an established geographical and political term, totally relevant for the game time frame. It was not about the tribe anymore.
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Vychegda Perm - Wikipedia
Great Perm - Wikipedia
Perm still needs to be split into Little/Vychegda Perm and Great Perm that hasn’t been christianized yet. Both vassals/tributaries of Novgorod.
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