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A bit late to the party, but if I may ask, @Pavía what is the motivation behind not giving Ladoga to the Oreshek principality? Ladoga was included in Duke Narimantas' invitation so its absence from his possessions seem odd? While its true his son promptly squandered the lands upon his inheritance of it, in 1337 it was part of Narimantas' domains yes? Seems weird for it to be part of Novgorod.
Admittedly I'm not an expert though so feel free to correct me if there's something I am missing
I understand that the developers divided the Russian culture for gameplay and balance reasons.
But I can't understand why they chose such terrible names.
Since the division of Russian culture is purely artificial, it makes sense to use geographical distinctions for the names:
I don’t think that cultural division is artificial. The devs mentioned the criteria. One of them is identity.
At that time there was no common ‘Russian’ or ‘Ruthenian’ identity, but it was based on regional identity arond the regional power centres.
Also, Novgorod had quite a different political tradition, compared to other duchies. Different relations with the Tatars, struggle with the Catholic knights.
So separation of Novgorodian culture is absolutely natural.
And also from the game perspective, I think Northern/Central/Southern Russian sound more ‘boring’ than Novgorodian/Smolenskian/Muscovite.
I don’t think that cultural division is artificial. The devs mentioned the criteria. One of them is identity.
At that time there was no common ‘Russian’ or ‘Ruthenian’ identity, but it was based on regional identity arond the regional power centres.
Also, Novgorod had quite a different political tradition, compared to other duchies. Different relations with the Tatars, struggle with the Catholic knights.
So separation of Novgorodian culture is absolutely natural.
Once again, there are documents from XIII century, where people of Novgorod call themself rus (русь) or rusin (русин). So the condirer themself something more than just "Novgorodian".
I disagree with splitting Russian and Ruthenian as separate languages. There are a lot of problems to it.
1. They did not identify as separate languages and were literally called the same name
2. Russian is closer to Ukrainian and Belarusian than to Old Novgorodian. ON is really weird and might even form an own branch of East Slavic. Please, at least separate the Novgorodian language.
3. Considering the previous point this division basically unites Ukrainian, Belarusian and Western-Southern Russian dialects while singling out Northern Russian as the only one that doesnt fit. It would look weird. Especially when IRL standard Russian is transitional between the Northern and Southern zones gravitating to the latter.
4. Early stages of Ruthenian are extremely similar to contemporary Russian. On the late stages it would make more sense to divide it on Ukrainian and Belarusian already .
5. On the start of the game the borders of the unifiers are yet to form, while the main political reason behind the linguistic border is PLC-Muscovy border. If Smolensk becomes a part of an Eastern unifier, it would use Russian like it did IRL, if Ryazan becomes a part of a Western unifier it would use the same standard language as people of Smolensk (they are in the same old dialect group anyway).
Edit: yes, naming the unified language in English is complicated due to all the variation and political implications like calling Ukrainian a dialect of Russian so I propose calling them all Ruthenian. The name Ruthenia was used for Muscovy too!
Once again, there are documents from XIII century, where people of Novgorod call themself rus (русь) or rusin (русин). So the condirer themself something more than just "Novgorodian".
Actually prof. academic Zaliznyak, who discovered and studied a lot of Novgorodian documents, would not agree with you. For example, in his lecture on the history of the Russian language from here:
Так, новгородцы долгое время вовсе не считали себя русскими, не считали, что слово Русь относится к их территории. В новгородских берестяных грамотах, а также и в летописях до некоторого времени встречаются рассказы о том, что такой-то епископ в таком-то году отправился в Русь из Новгорода, то есть поехал на юг, в Киев или Чернигов.
Это легко проследить по летописям. Такое словоупотребление нормально для XI, XII, XIII вв. и только в XIV в. мы впервые видим, что новгородцы, сражаясь с какими-то своими внешними врагами, называют себя в летописи русскими. Дальше это название расширяется, и примерно с XIV в. оно уже соответствует всей восточнославянской территории. И хотя в это время на этой территории уже существуют зачатки трех разных будущих языков, все они одинаково называются русскими. Примечательным образом позже снова наступает сужение этого термина: сейчас мы именуем русскими только часть восточнославянского населения, а именно ту, которая может иначе называться великорусской. ... Вот таким образом сперва произошло расширение, а затем сужение термина «русский».
So actually Novgorodian identity was historically among the strongest.
Another example can be internal struggle in Galicia-Volhynia between the Galician and Volhynian nobility, even though they were united for a long time and both were the Kingdom of Rus.
But my reference in general was to this paragraph from the Cultures TT#36:
So, what is Culture? Culture is the culmination of vernacular, music, food, identity, ethnicity, art and various other hard-to-define ideas. It is something possessed by countries, pops, and characters. It contains two main dimensions: Culture Group and Language.
The division is not only based on how someone called themselves, but a number of things.
And lastly, this is still going to be a game, not an encyclopaedia.
Actually prof. academic Zaliznyak, who discovered and studied a lot of Novgorodian documents, would not agree with you. For example, in his lecture on the history of the Russian language from here:
Так, новгородцы долгое время вовсе не считали себя русскими, не считали, что слово Русь относится к их территории. В новгородских берестяных грамотах, а также и в летописях до некоторого времени встречаются рассказы о том, что такой-то епископ в таком-то году отправился в Русь из Новгорода, то есть поехал на юг, в Киев или Чернигов.
In my opinion, this argument is quite weak and based only on his own interpretations of such texts.
When I was a child, I visited my grandmother in a village that was located on both banks of a small stream. One bank was called Sloboda (Слобода), and the other - Highground (Бугор). When we went to play with the children from the other bank, we referred to it as "Going to Sloboda," and when they came to us, they called it "Going to Highground." But this did not mean that we thought we lived in different villages. We considered ourselves residents of the same village.
Also there are documents where Novgorodian called themself русь and русин, as I mentioned before. Here is the link to the Russian Wikipedia.
And even if this interpretation is correct, the game starts in 1337, which is the XIV century, during which, as you wrote, the Novgorodians already considered themselves Russians. Quote:
In my opinion, this argument is quite weak and based only on his own interpretations of such texts.
When I was a child, I visited my grandmother in a village that was located on both banks of a small stream. One bank was called Sloboda (Слобода), and the other - Highground (Бугор). When we went to play with the children from the other bank, we referred to it as "Going to Sloboda," and when they came to us, they called it "Going to Highground." But this did not mean that we thought we lived in different villages. We considered ourselves residents of the same village.
Also there are documents where Novgorodian called themself русь and русин, as I mentioned before. Here is the link to the Russian Wikipedia.
And even if this interpretation is correct, the game starts in 1337, which is the XIV century, during which, as you wrote, the Novgorodians already considered themselves Russians. Quote:
As I have said, everyone called themselves Русь from Halych to Novgorod, it does not mean that there should be a huge single culture blob just based on this fact.
At least Novgorodian proto-democratic political tradition of Veche and electing rulers was quite a unique distinguisihg feature from others.
And culture naming can be easily solved by a decision when someone formes Russia, the primary culture is renamed into Russian and assimilates another one.
And culture naming can be easily solved by a decision when someone formes Russia, the primary culture is renamed into Russian and assimilates another one.
A bit late to the party, but if I may ask, @Pavía what is the motivation behind not giving Ladoga to the Oreshek principality? Ladoga was included in Duke Narimantas' invitation so its absence from his possessions seem odd? While its true his son promptly squandered the lands upon his inheritance of it, in 1337 it was part of Narimantas' domains yes? Seems weird for it to be part of Novgorod.
Admittedly I'm not an expert though so feel free to correct me if there's something I am missing
Yeah Oreshek should be expanded a bit, including the rest of the coastal locations of Korela, north of Ladoga. I see no reason why those wouldn't have been part of Narimantas' domain when he controlled the administrative center of the province.
Edit: On the Russian Wikipedia page for Narimantas, we can see that the original historical source stated that he received both Korela and Korela land, so the whole province. In game of course this should only include the parts of Korela controlled by Novgorod.
Though on the original Russia thread one person argued that Oreshek shouldn't exist at all. I don't know enough to have an opinion of my own.
Narimantas was not the actual owner of the territories. He was only given income from the lands in exchange for a promise of military assistance.
He was a prince in Nogorod only in 1333-1335 and left Novgorod forever
He did not provide any assistance in the war with Moscow, and in 1348 the Prince of Moscow, Semyon the Proud, officially became the Prince of Novgorod.
Lithuanian Orуshek as a country is a fantasy.
Narimantas was deprived of income from his estates as soon as they realized that there would be no military assistance from him.
There were no Lithuanian garrisons there. There were no administrative changes.
These were the same Novgorod possessions.
This is a common Novgorod practice; there was no talk of any transfer of land into ownership.
Not in the 14th century. nor in the 15th century.
Moreover, you cannot draw under Orуshek - the city of Ladoga is the ancestral Novgorod land, the first capital of the Rurikovichs, one of the most important fortresses and a 100% Russian-speaking city that controlled the exit from the Volkhov River to Lake Ladoga.
It is better to make the Karells as a separate faction of the rebels and Ingrians.
he was not a ruler.
Novgorod gave him income from these territories, without political power.
This was a common practice; the invited prince received income from a number of territories for the maintenance of the Druzhina.
he was present there personally only in 1333-1335, then left. And later the deal was terminated, because Novgorod did not receive military assistance from him.
It is wrong to single out this principality. Otherwise there will be an ahistorical Karelia with the Lithuanian dynasty.
In Oreshek, tax collectors of Narimantas's son were mentioned in 1346. in other locations mentioned earlier - no.
Perhaps they left him part of the income, in the hope that he would return to help. Or his son worked there purely as a mercenary, who was paid from taxes collected locally.
Novgorod later invited a representative of the Narimantas clan as a prince several times.
The reason is that each prince brought his own small army - several hundred (300) horsemen at arms.
And they were allocated income from certain territories to support the troops.
But it is impossible to talk about some kind of principality of Narimantas as a separate entity, a country in the format of a game with its own tag.
I mean that if the goal is to display locations where a certain faction of the rebels should appear (by culture - Karelians, or Ingrians), then it will be more correct to display the realism of their region than to draw a principality that did not exist.
Until 1338, Alexander seemed to be his father's governor.
Here the question is in principle - what is a state in the mechanics of the game?
Novgorod-Swedish relations and wars have been studied.
Karelia Narimuntovich is a potentially ahistorical faction to which the rebels from Novgorod and Swedish Karelia will fall away, etc.
Yeah Oreshek should be expanded a bit, including the rest of the coastal locations of Korela, north of Ladoga. I see no reason why those wouldn't have been part of Narimantas' domain when he controlled the administrative center of the province.
Edit: On the Russian Wikipedia page for Narimantas, we can see that the original historical source stated that he received both Korela and Korela land, so the whole province. In game of course this should only include the parts of Korela controlled by Novgorod. View attachment 1230974
Though on the original Russia thread one person argued that Oreshek shouldn't exist at all. I don't know enough to have an opinion of my own.
1. Rostov was vassalised in 1331.
Long story short, Kalita married his daughter to local prince, then convinced Khan to give him control over half of the Rostov duchy. Those political shenanigans made Rostov into a loyal puppet state for 20 years ahead.
2. Uglich, Beloozero and Galich-Mersky principalities all do not have an exact purchase date. On the other hand, their most likely purchase date is believed to be in 1328, because it has a reference of Kalita buying some "unknown duchies", and it is the only date to which their purchase can be connected to.
What I mean is, they should share the same treatment in game, with either Uglich becoming independent / or Beloozero and Galich Merskiy becoming vassal states for the sake of consistency. They are literally in the same boat here, so it doesnt make much sense to turn one duchy into vassal without turning others.
Book
Quote about Rostov
Quote about Uglich, Galich, Beloozero
3. Making Novgorod excluded from Tatar Yoke is questionable. They:
1. Payed tribute regularly
2. Payed it thorough Kalita
3. Was raided when they refused to pay (the most recent raid was actually in 1337)
4. Was interferred politically by horde (Kalita had to seek Khan's approval to keep Novgorodian throne when Tverian prince got deposed from Vladimir.)
I dont see how they are different from any other TY participant like Tver or Mologa.
4. By 1337 Pskov was already de-facto independent. They opposed Novgorod on multiple occasions and basically did whatever they wanted. The treaty of Bolotovo in 1348 only made them independent de-jure, annuling treaties that Pskovians didnt hold anyway.
Since you already portrayed de-facto independent subject as independent entities in other regions (i.e. ilkhanate), I think it would be better to change approach to Pskov as well. One of the ways to handle it is to make them independent from the start, but give Novgorod a permanent casus belli to vassalaze them, and make that casus belli removable only by events (bolotovo treaty), war goal, or a specific decision.
Once again, there are documents from XIII century, where people of Novgorod call themself rus (русь) or rusin (русин). So the condirer themself something more than just "Novgorodian".
There are documents from that time where Tuscan, Neapolitans, and Lombards call themself Italian. Saxons, Bavarians, Brandenburgians calling themself German. It doesn't change the fact that those were separate cultures with different dialects. The same goes for Chinese and Arabic. Some form of regional shared identity is not an argument. Novgorodian especially is considered so unique that it is sometimes considered a mix of East Slavic and extinct North Slavic, read works of Russian linguist, Andrey Zaliznyak.
Quick question, will the Dorogobuzh (1343—1404), Zvenigorod (1340—144х), Romanov (1345—14xx) and Mikulino (1339—1485) principalities be in the game? Having them appear as separate TAGs through events would be a good way to simulate how unstable and fragmented Russian principalities were in this time period, and the locations are already on the map.
There are documents from that time where Tuscan, Neapolitans, and Lombards call themself Italian. Saxons, Bavarians, Brandenburgians calling themself German. It doesn't change the fact that those were separate cultures with different dialects. The same goes for Chinese and Arabic. Some form of regional shared identity is not an argument. Novgorodian especially is considered so unique that it is sometimes considered a mix of East Slavic and extinct North Slavic, read works of Russian linguist, Andrey Zaliznyak.
Okay, which one of these two sentences makes more sense to you?
1) The principalities of Pskov, Oreshek, Beloozero, Novgorod, and Rostov had Northern Russian culture. Or
2) The principalities of Pskov, Oreshek, Beloozero, Novgorod, and Rostov had Novgorodian culture.
Okay, which one of these two sentences makes more sense to you?
1) The principalities of Pskov, Oreshek, Beloozero, Novgorod, and Rostov had Northern Russian culture. Or
2) The principalities of Pskov, Oreshek, Beloozero, Novgorod, and Rostov had Novgorodian culture.
Okay, if you unironically think that the people of the Rostov principality had Novgorodian culture, then I will not be able to convince you of anything.
Okay, if you unironically think that the people of the Rostov principality had Novgorodian culture, then I will not be able to convince you of anything.
You are factually wrong: the people of the Rostov principality had Muscovite culture, not Novgorodian. If you squint hard enough, you will spot Lake Nero and Rostov principality above letter U.
And it looks like the same is true for Beloozero from your list. It is shaded with Vepsian culture but it has a different fill from the countryside. Which means that the town has a non-Novgorodian dominant culture, unlike the rest of the principality.
You are factually wrong: the people of the Rostov principality had Muscovite culture, not Novgorodian. If you squint hard enough, you will spot Lake Nero and Rostov principality above letter U.
And it looks like the same is true for Beloozero from your list. It is shaded with Vepsian culture but it has a different fill from the countryside. Which means that the town has a non-Novgorodian dominant culture, unlike the rest of the principality.
Okay, which one of these two sentences makes more sense to you?
1) The principalities of Pskov, Oreshek, Beloozero, Novgorod, and Rostov had Northern Russian culture. Or
2) The principalities of Pskov, Oreshek, Beloozero, Novgorod, and Rostov had Novgorodian culture.
Again, the mainstream linguistic consensus is that Novgorodian is really distinct from Old Russian/Ruthenian whatever.
From Wikipedia: The mainstream view is that the Old Novgorod dialect is an East Slavic variety that has some significant deviations from what Andrey Zaliznyak calls "supra-dialectal Old Russian", although there have been some attempts to classify it as a separate branch of the Slavic languages.
Calling it North Russian instead of Novgorodian is like calling Napoletano and Siciliano Southern Italian #1 and Southern Italian #2. It is obviously inaccurate despite that Neapolitans sometimes referred to themself as Italians. In the chronicles, Novgorod is also treated as a somewhat separate area from the rest of Rus.
