Does this mean Dalmatian is basically Italian in origin and Croatian in influence? I always thought it's in reverse.
- 1
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
No; Dalmatian is a separate branch of Romance languages, it's not a form of Italian but a separate language. But it did get influenced by Venetian, Italian and Croatian too
- 3
So if we say a dialect is first level, language second and a group of languages third both Italian, Croatian and Dalmatian would be on a second level equal to one another?
Guys, we just need another 7 pages, then the combined original + feedback will reach 200 pages. We can do it.
Admittedly, it might be harder if we can’t talk about M*ld*via but still, we can do it.
Admittedly, it might be harder if we can’t talk about M*ld*via but still, we can do it.
- 10
- 1
We just need to resurrect the demographic question in regards to Hungary (or just the Kassa-Eperjes area xdddd)
- 2
I just realised that the devs didnt fix the Albanian and Aromanian colours being impossoble to tell apart too.
I know the devs must be very busy but when even the complaints about culture colours can only be adressed in a incomplete way it makes you wonder.
I know the devs must be very busy but when even the complaints about culture colours can only be adressed in a incomplete way it makes you wonder.
- 6
- 1
The version of the game the YouTubers are using for their footage is comparatively old
Don't be so pessimistic, the devs will surely tackle all the major complaints they receive
- 3
Do we have confirmation/proof for this btw? You are not the first to say it, and I really wanna believe it, but I am not sure if it's just hopium or not.
- 3
- 1
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it had all the latest map review stuff implemented, along with several relatively recent changes; if it's the "old" build, it can't be older than a few weeks
- 5
- 1
- 1
@Pavía @Aldaron and the rest of the Paradox Tinto dev team who are reading this thread:
Having recently aquired and read Albanian Venetia by Oliver Jens Schmitt one of the best if not the best book about the general area of Shkoder and even going into the rest of Albania, from the end of ther 13th century to the 15th century. This post will mostly talk about what he says pore Venitian arrival since thats when the game takes place but as he himself mentioned what a town trades its geographic location and the weather w
This post focuses specifically on religion in northern Albania.
Most used source in this post:
Add Catholicism to the northern Albania!
The area of Shkoder Ulqinj and whatever else Venice got hold of was the border Catholicism and Orthodoxy to an extent that we see even today. Oliver Jens Schmitt talks about several catholic churches and even monestarys in the area (the locations of Shkoder and Bar) wich engaged in the economic and social life with the latins and albanians being part of the clergy. Not representing the catholic presence around Lake Shkodra and the general north of Albania does a hude disservice to the biggest feature Albania had in this time period, mainly its intermixing of every religion (even jewish although those were entirely contained to the big merchant citys).
This conempotary source fom 1332 even highlights many of the things Oliver Jens Schmitt mentions even how alot of towns have Vineyards.
"...One factor, among others, which makes this kingdom easy to conquer, is that it is inhabited by two peoples, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins who, in their beliefs, their rites and their obedience, both abide by the Roman Catholic Church. Accordingly, they have archbishops, bishops and abbots, as well as religious and secular clerics of lower rank and status. The Latins have six towns with bishops: firstly Antibarum (Bar), the seat of the archbishop, then Chatarensis (Kotor), Dulcedinensis (Ulcinj), Suacinensis (Shas) (2), Scutarensis (Shkodra) and Drivascensis (Drisht) (3), which are inhabited by the Latins alone. Outside the town walls, the Albanians make up the population throughout the diocese. There are four Albanian towns: Polatum Maius (Greater Pult) (4), Polatum Minus (Lesser Pult), Sabatensis (Sapa) (5) and Albanensis (Albanopolis) (6) which, together with the towns of the Latins, are all legally subject to the Archbishop of Bar and his church as their metropolitan....."
This is a primary source wich is only 5 years away from the games start date written by a catholic priest with obvious knowledghe of the area considering he also mentions how things look outside of the towns
"...The sway of the Latins is thus confined to the limits of their towns. Outside the towns, they do possess vineyards and fields, but there are no fortifications or villages actually inhabited by the Latins"
Vineyards were a common sight outside of the citys with areas like around Dihstri and Shkodra being surrounded by villages and towns whob have them this is confirmed by Venetian reports too so we know the Catholic priest educated himself on the area, its people and even its economy.
Oliver Jerns Schmitt even mentions how a Venitian who traveled from the coasts into the "hinterland" would be suprised seeing a provincial catholicism (provincial meaning outside of citys) catholicism with how many catholic churches there were in the villages. You can see it yourself on page 87-89 something dont know the exact page it would be in the german version.
We also know of a catholic churches in Prizren and elsewhere so while we cannot determine the location of these churches too much we can atleast know for sure of the catholic population in Prizren.
Kosovo: A Short History:
"Albanians inthe mountains round Kosovo presumably kept up their contact with the Roman Church through the bishoprics of northern Albania; there arealso two shadowy references to a Roman bishop of Skopje, once in thelate ninth century and 'again in 1204.5 Later in the Middle Ages therewere Catholic churches in Prizren and elsewhere. So it seems that someseparate Roman Catholic tradition did survive throughout this period,albeit with a thoroughly second-class status. And this religious divisionmay have corresponded to some extent to the linguistic divide between Albanian and Slav."
The population size of catholics being 20000 also seems unrealistically small. Albanians make up 80000 (lower then it should be but the same can be said about all) and there are other catholics in there as we can see on the map meaning not even 1/8th of albanians in Serbia would be catholic wich is just a insanely low ratio if you account for modern historical source and espacially the primary sources written by contemporary historians of the time. Catholicism being a lower number then Bogomils is insane cause how does this explain the amount of catholics and churches wich were there before Venice took over north Albania. Oliver Jens Schmitt using rough estimations wich delibaretly overvalues the citys part of the population still came with 70% of the population of both Shkodra counties being rural and where he repatedly states that the rural population of catholics was comprised almost exclusively of Albanians. The latins didnt also leave the citys and join the rural places later on it was the opposite with the rural albanian population slowly replacing the urban latin and serbian population during the first half of the second 14th century, so the amount of catholics suddeenly present less then years later after decades of control under the serbian orthodox church didnt spontanously start existing. The churches and population didnt just rise out of the ground the second a venitian tax collector stepped foot on the land.
Thank you for reading,
Visualization:
Having recently aquired and read Albanian Venetia by Oliver Jens Schmitt one of the best if not the best book about the general area of Shkoder and even going into the rest of Albania, from the end of ther 13th century to the 15th century. This post will mostly talk about what he says pore Venitian arrival since thats when the game takes place but as he himself mentioned what a town trades its geographic location and the weather w
This post focuses specifically on religion in northern Albania.
Most used source in this post:
Oliver Jens Schmitt, Das venezianische Albanien (1392-1479)
I will only be specifying the names of other sourcesAdd Catholicism to the northern Albania!
The area of Shkoder Ulqinj and whatever else Venice got hold of was the border Catholicism and Orthodoxy to an extent that we see even today. Oliver Jens Schmitt talks about several catholic churches and even monestarys in the area (the locations of Shkoder and Bar) wich engaged in the economic and social life with the latins and albanians being part of the clergy. Not representing the catholic presence around Lake Shkodra and the general north of Albania does a hude disservice to the biggest feature Albania had in this time period, mainly its intermixing of every religion (even jewish although those were entirely contained to the big merchant citys).
This conempotary source fom 1332 even highlights many of the things Oliver Jens Schmitt mentions even how alot of towns have Vineyards.
1332
Anonymous:
Initiative for Making the Passage
"The 'Directorium ad passagium faciendum', which can be translated as 'Initiative for making the passage', is a mediaeval Latin manuscript (also available in an early French translation) attributed alternatively to a monk called Burcard (Brocardus Monacus / Frère Brochard) or to one William Adam (Guillelmus Adam / Guillaume Adam) (1). The author was at any rate a Dominican priest and Latin prelate in the Byzantine Empire and Armenia, whose aim was to persuade the Catholic armies under Philip VI of Valois (r. 1328-1350) to embark upon a holy crusade and conquer Serbian-occupied Albania, thus restoring the Catholic Church to its former power there and taking revenge upon the Orthodox Greeks for having destroyed the Latin Empire of Constantinople. In the text, the author makes reference to the Albanians as the majority population in Albania. ...""...One factor, among others, which makes this kingdom easy to conquer, is that it is inhabited by two peoples, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins who, in their beliefs, their rites and their obedience, both abide by the Roman Catholic Church. Accordingly, they have archbishops, bishops and abbots, as well as religious and secular clerics of lower rank and status. The Latins have six towns with bishops: firstly Antibarum (Bar), the seat of the archbishop, then Chatarensis (Kotor), Dulcedinensis (Ulcinj), Suacinensis (Shas) (2), Scutarensis (Shkodra) and Drivascensis (Drisht) (3), which are inhabited by the Latins alone. Outside the town walls, the Albanians make up the population throughout the diocese. There are four Albanian towns: Polatum Maius (Greater Pult) (4), Polatum Minus (Lesser Pult), Sabatensis (Sapa) (5) and Albanensis (Albanopolis) (6) which, together with the towns of the Latins, are all legally subject to the Archbishop of Bar and his church as their metropolitan....."
This is a primary source wich is only 5 years away from the games start date written by a catholic priest with obvious knowledghe of the area considering he also mentions how things look outside of the towns
"...The sway of the Latins is thus confined to the limits of their towns. Outside the towns, they do possess vineyards and fields, but there are no fortifications or villages actually inhabited by the Latins"
Vineyards were a common sight outside of the citys with areas like around Dihstri and Shkodra being surrounded by villages and towns whob have them this is confirmed by Venetian reports too so we know the Catholic priest educated himself on the area, its people and even its economy.
Oliver Jerns Schmitt even mentions how a Venitian who traveled from the coasts into the "hinterland" would be suprised seeing a provincial catholicism (provincial meaning outside of citys) catholicism with how many catholic churches there were in the villages. You can see it yourself on page 87-89 something dont know the exact page it would be in the german version.
We also know of a catholic churches in Prizren and elsewhere so while we cannot determine the location of these churches too much we can atleast know for sure of the catholic population in Prizren.
Kosovo: A Short History:
"Albanians inthe mountains round Kosovo presumably kept up their contact with the Roman Church through the bishoprics of northern Albania; there arealso two shadowy references to a Roman bishop of Skopje, once in thelate ninth century and 'again in 1204.5 Later in the Middle Ages therewere Catholic churches in Prizren and elsewhere. So it seems that someseparate Roman Catholic tradition did survive throughout this period,albeit with a thoroughly second-class status. And this religious divisionmay have corresponded to some extent to the linguistic divide between Albanian and Slav."
The population size of catholics being 20000 also seems unrealistically small. Albanians make up 80000 (lower then it should be but the same can be said about all) and there are other catholics in there as we can see on the map meaning not even 1/8th of albanians in Serbia would be catholic wich is just a insanely low ratio if you account for modern historical source and espacially the primary sources written by contemporary historians of the time. Catholicism being a lower number then Bogomils is insane cause how does this explain the amount of catholics and churches wich were there before Venice took over north Albania. Oliver Jens Schmitt using rough estimations wich delibaretly overvalues the citys part of the population still came with 70% of the population of both Shkodra counties being rural and where he repatedly states that the rural population of catholics was comprised almost exclusively of Albanians. The latins didnt also leave the citys and join the rural places later on it was the opposite with the rural albanian population slowly replacing the urban latin and serbian population during the first half of the second 14th century, so the amount of catholics suddeenly present less then years later after decades of control under the serbian orthodox church didnt spontanously start existing. The churches and population didnt just rise out of the ground the second a venitian tax collector stepped foot on the land.
Thank you for reading,
Visualization:
- 6
- 2
- 2
- 2
The gameplay showcase also showed that the devs didnt add any event about the migration to Epirus and Thessaly either. So a basically defining event wich happened for the Byzantines where depopulation followed by new immigration into the country wich only got even more enhanced with the Serbian conquests of said territories causing lasting change to the ethnic makeup of the region just doesnt happen. Only thing I can figure is the devs didnt get to implement the suggest map changes cause there are like 8 million wich contradict each other. But if we truly had a 82 pages long thread only to change the Greek culture colour and not even Aromanian colour then the devs could have just locked this thread down and saved us all the time and discussion about a specific area continuing forever.
Last edited:
- 7
I'm not sure how much the devs might've been leaning on the base game migrational mechanics for things like the Albanian migrations into Epirus and Thessaly, but if I had to guess that might be why it was rather lackluster in those demonstrations.
Ideally the way it'd be captured is that pastoral nomadic pops (i.e. tribal pops as they're referred to in-game) should be less impacted by plagues due to... well, less population density. That and they should migrate more freely. That'd be the ideal "generalization" approach, if driving this by events is undesired.
Ideally the way it'd be captured is that pastoral nomadic pops (i.e. tribal pops as they're referred to in-game) should be less impacted by plagues due to... well, less population density. That and they should migrate more freely. That'd be the ideal "generalization" approach, if driving this by events is undesired.
- 4
- 1
I just realised that Dubrovnik has Italian as court language but the reast of Dalmatia under Venice has Galo-Italic wtf.
- 4
- 1
Yeah I think it's a little weird to have North and South Italian as separate languages while also having a "Cushitic" language in the Horn of Africa that stopped being a language at least 5000 years prior.
Like I know Italian is hella diverse today, but you'd think that having one Italian language with maybe 6 dialects would make sense for 1337.
- 3
- 1
Quote deleted by moderator
Not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic, but regardless, based
Not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic, but regardless, based
Last edited by a moderator:
- 9
- 1
He's not being sarcastic, you need at least 6 Albanians to pool their savings to be able to afford one copy of EUV.
- 16
- 1
I haven't laughed this hard in quite some time. Thank you.
RED AND BLACK I DRESS, EAGLE ON MY CHEST, IT'S GOOD TO BE AN ALBANIAN. KEEP MY HEAD UP HIGH, FOR THE FLAG I DIE, I'M PROUD TO BE AN ALBANIAN!
RED AND BLACK I DRESS, EAGLE ON MY CHEST, IT'S GOOD TO BE AN ALBANIAN. KEEP MY HEAD UP HIGH, FOR THE FLAG I DIE, I'M PROUD TO BE AN ALBANIAN!
- 4
- 2
- 1
Halychian culture needs to change. I'm a history teacher with long time research interest in this region and this construct just doesn't work. My suggestion would be either Carpatho-Rusyn, which also isn't perfect, but it's better than Halychyan, or "Subcarpathian" which is just another construct, but one better reflecting the reality on the ground. As is, the regional representation is quite off.
Last edited:
@Pavía
I have an incredibly minute but still relevant remark regarding natural harbors in Dalmatia. The natural harbor map provided in the relevant Tinto talk (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...to-talks-24-7th-of-august-2024.1698427/page-7) doesn't really make much sense regarding the natural harbor potential in Dalmatia.
The biggest transgressors are definitely the locations of Šibenik (between Split/Spalato and Zadar) and Kotor (under Dubrovnik/Ragusa). Both are dark green (aka. the lowest possible natural harbor value) when in reality they're probably the two most logical natural harbors on this side of the Adriatic, other than Dubrovnik itself.
They're both in "inlets" of sorts, connected to the rest of the sea by narrow canals which are incredibly easily defended.
I know you guys probably just eyeball these things since no one can be asked to google every single one of the tens of thousands of locations, but being from Šibenik myself I really felt compelled to point this out to you in hopes that you can make Šibenik the perfect natural harbor it is in real life.
I highly encourage you to not take my word for it and look up Šibenik (and Kotor) on Google maps yourselves, but here are just a few pictures of Šibenik and the surrounding geography so you can see what I'm talking about.
Sorry for the @!
I have an incredibly minute but still relevant remark regarding natural harbors in Dalmatia. The natural harbor map provided in the relevant Tinto talk (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...to-talks-24-7th-of-august-2024.1698427/page-7) doesn't really make much sense regarding the natural harbor potential in Dalmatia.
The biggest transgressors are definitely the locations of Šibenik (between Split/Spalato and Zadar) and Kotor (under Dubrovnik/Ragusa). Both are dark green (aka. the lowest possible natural harbor value) when in reality they're probably the two most logical natural harbors on this side of the Adriatic, other than Dubrovnik itself.
They're both in "inlets" of sorts, connected to the rest of the sea by narrow canals which are incredibly easily defended.
I know you guys probably just eyeball these things since no one can be asked to google every single one of the tens of thousands of locations, but being from Šibenik myself I really felt compelled to point this out to you in hopes that you can make Šibenik the perfect natural harbor it is in real life.
I highly encourage you to not take my word for it and look up Šibenik (and Kotor) on Google maps yourselves, but here are just a few pictures of Šibenik and the surrounding geography so you can see what I'm talking about.
Sorry for the @!
- 3
- 3
- 2