Tinto Maps #9 Carpathia and Balkans Feedback

[kagami1999]

Now that we know theres dialects could you atleast add macedonian as a dialect, i think that will satisfy everyone and its quite realistic

Misnomer. Multiple dialects are spoken in the region of Macedonia, all of which transcend the region's boundaries. The speech of Ohrid is close to living and dead Bulgarian dialects from northeastern Albania. The speech of Bitola is part of a dialect group extending all the way to Vratsa in the Balkan foothills. The speech of Kumanovo is Torlakian, covering most of northwestern Bulgaria and eastern Serbia. The speech of southeastern Macedonia belongs to the Rup dialects, which span a wide area from the hinterlands of Thessaloniki all the way to Strandzha on the Black Sea coast. Macedonia isn't a cohesive linguistic area, it's an ancient geographic term repurposed by western cartographers to describe an area that it never applied to until the 19th century. If locals did use regional identifiers, they were tribal identities (Brsjak, Mijak, Marvak, Shop, etc...) not 'Macedonian', not until the 19th century.

 

[Inzano]

View attachment 1222240
Czechoslovak language? Did they divide the western slave?

The six day after Tinto Talk #36.

 

[purplephoton]

Post 5 of several: Germans in Carpathia

a. Zipser Germans
There are 5 locations that I think should be striped Zipser in 1337 and a few more that should be looked at more closely.
Liptoszentmiklos: Nemetlipcse, Rozsahegy, and by 1337 possibly Hybbe were founded or populated by Germans.
Murany(alja) and possibly Rozsnyo: the 1495 map shows to Hungarian-majority area anywhere near Murany, and only barely to the south of Rozsnyo (exception is Jolsva, which had both Germans and Hungarians, but it seems to be right between Murany and Sajogomor); on the other hand, there are Germans there that can be traced back to 1326 (Dobsina), between 1243 and 1344 (Csetnek), and "sometime in the the 13th century" (Rozsnyo and Nagyroce). Murany should probably be striped with Zipsers rather than Hungarians; Rozsnyo is probably fine as is but I'd recommend looking through any sources you can find.
Gonc and possibly Kassa: the Germans in Gonc can be traced back to late 13th century (Gonc). Nearby Telkibanya was also a mining town dating back to 1270, and mining at the time was dominated by Germans. Slovaks, on the other hand, didn't extend that far south in large numbers. Kassa also had a lot of Germans, but I don't know if they outnumbered Slovaks. So Gonc should probably be striped with Zipsers rather than Slovaks, and Kassa should be looked at just like Rozsnyo.
Nagyberezna and possibly Verecke: Data from 1337 is unavailable, but 1) Nagyberezna had at least some German influx between 1240 and 1400 and 2) by 1910 both Verecke and Nagyberezna had almost as many Germans as Ruthenians, and the only reason I don't suggest making them both have a large German minority is the unavailable data. My conclusion is that Nagyberezna should probably be striped Zipser.
Huszt: Germans formed a significant community around Tecso by 1337, while Ruthenians probably didn't migrate into Maramaros in large numbers until the 1400s. Huszt should be striped Zipser rather than Ukrainian.

b. Transylvanian (Siebenburger Germans)
Disclaimer: I will be referring to Transylvanian German as Siebenburger in this post; I think they should be renamed to something and this is the best option imo.
Beszterce should be Siebenburger majority, Transylvanian minority. Beszterce, Radna, and Naszod were all founded and populated by Germans before 1300, and the region didn't become Romanian-majority until roughly 1700.
Szek should be Hungarian majority, Siebenburger minority. "Nosnerland", of which Beszterce was the center of, extended well into Tinto's Szek location, while the Transylvanian population of the region was relatively low until... 1500s or so?
Regen should be Siebenburger majority, Hungarian minority. Like the rest of the towns mentioned, it was founded and populated by Germans, with a largely Hungarian countryside. Szekely should only make a very small part of the population since Regen isn't part of Szekelyfold.
Aranyosbanya should be Transylvanian majority, Siebenburger minority. To the best of my knowledge, Hungarians didn't settle those mountains in large numbers.

c. Danube Swabians
Both Buda and Nograd should have a large Swabian minority. Buda's Germans seem to be a bit harder to trace than Nograd's Germans; the latter were definitely Swabian while the former were probably a mixture including Swabians; I think it's fine to keep them Swabian for simplicity. As far as I can tell, those were the only two Swabian locations before about 1700.

d. Germans in Moldavia
Several towns in northwestern Moldavia were founded by Germans; at least some of those Germans are believed (though it is unconfirmed) to have come from the Beszterce area, so I think they should be Siebenburger. They should be the second-largest culture in Suceava after Moldovans.
Siret and Targu Neamt also have a history linked to Germans, but not enough for them to be visible on the map. Siret, while founded by Germans, should probably keep Halychian as its second-largest culture, as there is heavy evidence of some East Slavic settlement in the area and the Germans aren't mentioned after 1241. Targu Neamt is mentioned as being largely Slavic around 1390; I'm skeptical as to how well that translates to 1337, but I'm guessing that there were more Slavs than Germans at the time. So both Siret and Targu Neamt should be Moldovan majority, striped Halychian, with some invisible Siebenburger.

Edit: here's the map:

 

[Silverbow]

Post 5 of several: Germans in Carpathia

a. Zipser Germans
There are 5 locations that I think should be striped Zipser in 1337 and a few more that should be looked at more closely.
Liptoszentmiklos: Nemetlipcse, Rozsahegy, and by 1337 possibly Hybbe were founded or populated by Germans.
Murany(alja) and possibly Rozsnyo: the 1495 map shows to Hungarian-majority area anywhere near Murany, and only barely to the south of Rozsnyo (exception is Jolsva, which had both Germans and Hungarians, but it seems to be right between Murany and Sajogomor); on the other hand, there are Germans there that can be traced back to 1326 (Dobsina), between 1243 and 1344 (Csetnek), and "sometime in the the 13th century" (Rozsnyo and Nagyroce). Murany should probably be striped with Zipsers rather than Hungarians; Rozsnyo is probably fine as is but I'd recommend looking through any sources you can find.
Gonc and possibly Kassa: the Germans in Gonc can be traced back to late 13th century (Gonc). Nearby Telkibanya was also a mining town dating back to 1270, and mining at the time was dominated by Germans. Slovaks, on the other hand, didn't extend that far south in large numbers. Kassa also had a lot of Germans, but I don't know if they outnumbered Slovaks. So Gonc should probably be striped with Zipsers rather than Slovaks, and Kassa should be looked at just like Rozsnyo.
Nagyberezna and possibly Verecke: Data from 1337 is unavailable, but 1) Nagyberezna had at least some German influx between 1240 and 1400 and 2) by 1910 both Verecke and Nagyberezna had almost as many Germans as Ruthenians, and the only reason I don't suggest making them both have a large German minority is the unavailable data. My conclusion is that Nagyberezna should probably be striped Zipser.
Huszt: Germans formed a significant community around Tecso by 1337, while Ruthenians probably didn't migrate into Maramaros in large numbers until the 1400s. Huszt should be striped Zipser rather than Ukrainian.

b. Transylvanian (Siebenburger Germans)
Disclaimer: I will be referring to Transylvanian German as Siebenburger in this post; I think they should be renamed to something and this is the best option imo.
Beszterce should be Siebenburger majority, Transylvanian minority. Beszterce, Radna, and Naszod were all founded and populated by Germans before 1300, and the region didn't become Romanian-majority until roughly 1700.
Szek should be Hungarian majority, Siebenburger minority. "Nosnerland", of which Beszterce was the center of, extended well into Tinto's Szek location, while the Transylvanian population of the region was relatively low until... 1500s or so?
Regen should be Siebenburger majority, Hungarian minority. Like the rest of the towns mentioned, it was founded and populated by Germans, with a largely Hungarian countryside. Szekely should only make a very small part of the population since Regen isn't part of Szekelyfold.
Aranyosbanya should be Transylvanian majority, Siebenburger minority. To the best of my knowledge, Hungarians didn't settle those mountains in large numbers.

c. Danube Swabians
Both Buda and Nograd should have a large Swabian minority. Buda's Germans seem to be a bit harder to trace than Nograd's Germans; the latter were definitely Swabian while the former were probably a mixture including Swabians; I think it's fine to keep them Swabian for simplicity. As far as I can tell, those were the only two Swabian locations before about 1700.

d. Germans in Moldavia
Several towns in northwestern Moldavia were founded by Germans; at least some of those Germans are believed (though it is unconfirmed) to have come from the Beszterce area, so I think they should be Siebenburger. They should be the second-largest culture in Suceava after Moldovans.
Siret and Targu Neamt also have a history linked to Germans, but not enough for them to be visible on the map. Siret, while founded by Germans, should probably keep Halychian as its second-largest culture, as there is heavy evidence of some East Slavic settlement in the area and the Germans aren't mentioned after 1241. Targu Neamt is mentioned as being largely Slavic around 1390; I'm skeptical as to how well that translates to 1337, but I'm guessing that there were more Slavs than Germans at the time. So both Siret and Targu Neamt should be Moldovan majority, striped Halychian, with some invisible Siebenburger.

I will edit the post to include a map in a bit.

Doubtful about Kassa (Germans were actual majority in the city, but the rest of the area was largely completely devoid of them, being definitely Hungarian/Slovak). Hard no on Huszt, it was Ruthenian before Hungarian conquest and didn't need any immigration to achieve that, should be Ukrainian/Hungarian.

 

[ArVass]

Fair enough! I suppose we showcased why the devs landed on Transylvanian Germans after all.

I disagree, the fact that Danube Swabians (who settled in different parts of the country) were not there yet doesn't mean the Transylvanian Saxons in Transylvania should be called something else than their self-denomination and how everyone else called them.

At any rate, I'd be more interested in discussing the Csángós in Moldavia and Serbs in Southern Hungary further.

Csángós are a tough nut, because it's not an entirely homogenous group.

Essentially there are two main subgroups of Moldavian Csángós, Northern Csángós and Southern/Székely Csángós. The former was probably formed from Hungarian settlers from Transylvania and the Upper Tisza region from the 13th century (and possibly from even earlier populations who may have "stayed back" in the 9th century during the Honfoglalás), centered mostly on the Northern end of the Csángó land around the city of Roman. Székely Csángós mostly occupy the Southern half of the Csángó lands, and the bulk of Székely Csángós emigrated from Székelyföld in the 18th century following the devastation of the Mádéfalva Massacre (the map below indicates the Székely Csángó migration happening from as early as the 13th century, however I'm yet to find any evidence for this claim). Worth mentioning that before the Székely wave, there were in fact pre-Székely Southern Csángós in this area, who were not unlike the Northern Csángós, however they have been mostly assimilated with the newer Székelys.

So overall, the Csángós in 1337:
- would definitely not be Székelys as the current Tinto map shows; I would either model them with Hungarian pops or their own separate culture
- their population center should be around Roman and Bacău, with a gradient of minorities ranging as north as Botosani, as South as Focsani and as East as Galați
- the Hétfalusi Csángós and the Gyimes Csángós are really small and not actually Csángós, and the latter are also not present at start date
- there were a number of Hungarian settlements in other parts of Moldavia and Wallachia in the middle ages, however I don't know basically anything about them. I may look into it and maybe make a post on it, or not

 

[pCWentY]

Just some small modifications would be perfect

After all, this is the territory that has been maintained for a long time before the end of the game timeline

 

[purplephoton]

Hard no on Huszt, it was Ruthenian before Hungarian conquest and didn't need any immigration to achieve that, should be Ukrainian/Hungarian.

Huszt is a tricky one - from what I can find, the (previously Slavic) area was depopulated due to Cuman attacks, repopulated with Germans in the 1100s, damaged by Mongols, and then had some Germans and Ruthenians come back in. Exact dates are hard to find; it could be as early as 1281, but much of Ukrainian Maramaros doesn’t seem to have become Ruthenian until a wave of colonization of Transcarpathia in the early 1400s (this wave is mentioned in Ukrainian sources and I don’t see too many places where it could have gone, since Bereg and Ung already had sizable Ruthenian populations). Germans, on the other hand, were definitely there by then.
There’s also a Hungarian source that claims that Maramaros in the early 1300s had a lot of Romanians but not very many Ruthenians (though admittedly I would be hard-pressed to find it now); the Romanians are accounted for already.

 

[Silverbow]

Huszt is a tricky one - from what I can find, the (previously Slavic) area was depopulated due to Cuman attacks, repopulated with Germans in the 1100s, damaged by Mongols, and then had some Germans and Ruthenians come back in. Exact dates are hard to find; it could be as early as 1281, but much of Ukrainian Maramaros doesn’t seem to have become Ruthenian until a wave of colonization of Transcarpathia in the early 1400s (this wave is mentioned in Ukrainian sources and I don’t see too many places where it could have gone, since Bereg and Ung already had sizable Ruthenian populations). Germans, on the other hand, were definitely there by then.
There’s also a Hungarian source that claims that Maramaros in the early 1300s had a lot of Romanians but not very many Ruthenians (though admittedly I would be hard-pressed to find it now); the Romanians are accounted for already.

There was probably enough population remaining in the mountains to outnumber one German town, really. "Depopulation" doesn't mean extinction, otherwise there'd be no Hungarians left after the depopulation of Pannonian basin they suffered later.

Also unlike in Spiš, Transylvánia or Gemer regions, I don't think there's all that much German legacy in Maramaros. They were very much present but not dominant, unlike in the other areas.

 

[ZigTheNorweigan]

On Albania:
1. Kavaje does not seem to include the actual city of Kavaje
2. Elbasan did not exist back then; I advise naming the location after Çermenikë perhpas
3. in my understanding, Devoll should be under Muzaka control at this time, while Pogradec should be split from that location and given to Serbia

Yeah your right i overlayed it onto google earth and Kavaje isnt actually in Kavaje

 

[ArVass]

There was probably enough population remaining in the mountains to outnumber one German town, really. "Depopulation" doesn't mean extinction, otherwise there'd be no Hungarians left after the depopulation of Pannonian basin they suffered later.

Also unlike in Spiš, Transylvánia or Gemer regions, I don't think there's all that much German legacy in Maramaros. They were very much present but not dominant, unlike in the other areas.

The Crown Cities of Máramaros (Huszt, Hosszúmező, Sziget, Técső, Visk) did have significant German population, so at the very least the burgher class should be dominated by them.

Yeah your right i overlayed it onto google earth and Kavaje isnt actually in KavajeView attachment 1222407

It could make sense to either rename the current Kavajë location to something like Lushnjë, or change its borders so that it actually includes Kavajë (which actually indeed seems to have been under Mataranga kontrol)

 

[Silverbow]

The Crown Cities of Máramaros (Huszt, Hosszúmező, Sziget, Técső, Visk) did have significant German population, so at the very least the burgher class should be dominated by them.

Yes, that makes sense.

 

[Frigabus]

Hungary feedback:
First: You did a great job, most spelling errors have been eliminated in Hungary.

Only a couple of issues remained:

Province map:

• Not Szátmár but Szatmár (as the location).
• Banat is not correct for the XIV century (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat), it only came into use in the XVII century. I suggest the following names: Temes for Eastern Banat and Krassó or Keve for Western Banat. Those were the three most important counties in that region.

Location map:

• Hajdúszoboszló: Szoboszló was an important place in this time but it only received the prefix 'Hajdú' in the 17th century, when a Transylvanian prince settled hajduks there (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajduk).
• Újvidék with this name was only founed in the end of the XVII century (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_Sad). I suggest a locally important market town Futak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futog) instead.
• Csíksomlyó was only an unimportant village this time (the Csíksomlyó Pilgrimage did not yet existed), Csíkszereda was the capital of the county in the medieval times.
• There was a much more important place instead of Leibic: Késmárk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kežmarok) also a German settlement.
• Mihálcfalva was only a village (-falva means village in Hungarian) I suggest Orsova (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orșova) which was an important border fortification and custom check point.

Development:

• The German settlements were among the most urbanised areas in medieval Hungary, so Provinces Királyföld and Szepes should have some above-Hungarian-average development rate.

Cultures:

• Felvinc was the center of a Szekely exclave province (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unirea,_Alba) so its culture should be Szekely.
• The term Transylvanian is not correct for the Romanians of Transylvania, as it also includes the other inhabitants of the region (Hungarians, Székelys, Saxons). Transylvanian Romanian could be used instead.
• Moldvai csángók (Hungarian minority in Moldova: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Csángós). Although the date of their settlement is highly disputed, there are sources that mention a Hungarian population in the foothills of the Moldavian Carpathians. Historically, Bacau (Bákó in Hungarian) and Roman (Románvásár) had (and still have) a Hungarian minority.

Dominant Languages:

• In the southern part of Hungary, the South Slavic majority only emerged during and after the Ottoman conquest, until then this area had a majority Hungarian population. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kingdom_of_Hungary_-_Ethnic_Map_-_1495.jpg https://theorangefiles.hu/the-habsburg-kingdom-of-hungary-1526-1867/ The language border in this part should be moved closer to the Danube.

Last but not least: thank you for the more wine-producing locations!!!!

 

[ArVass]

Hungary feedback:
First: You did a great job, most spelling errors have been eliminated in Hungary.

Only a couple of issues remained:

Province map:

• Not Szátmár but Szatmár (as the location).
• Banat is not correct for the XIV century (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat), it only came into use in the XVII century. I suggest the following names: Temes for Eastern Banat and Krassó or Keve for Western Banat. Those were the three most important counties in that region.

I think they should move Krassó to Temes, and name the remaining "western Banat" (which has Torontál and Keve) Torontál; it could be Keve as well, however Torontál took over the more important lore late rin the timeframe.

• Újvidék with this name was only founed in the end of the XVII century (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_Sad). I suggest a locally important market town Futak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futog) instead.

There is also Titel there as an alternative

• Csíksomlyó was only an unimportant village this time (the Csíksomlyó Pilgrimage did not yet existed), Csíkszereda was the capital of the county in the medieval times.

Good call! Actually this was pointed out in the first round too a couple of times, but unfortunately it seems they missed it

 

[ZigTheNorweigan]

The Crown Cities of Máramaros (Huszt, Hosszúmező, Sziget, Técső, Visk) did have significant German population, so at the very least the burgher class should be dominated by them.

It could make sense to either rename the current Kavajë location to something like Lushnjë, or change its borders so that it actually includes Kavajë (which actually indeed seems to have been under Mataranga kontrol)

I think theyre reworking of the tags in Albania is good (perhaps Gropaj should have been added but im not sure and i also have no idea where they got a historical source to say Arianiti existed because i cant find anything personally) but i was rather dissapointed at the lack of additional locations with only 2 (Tirana and Ballsh) They should split Kavaje into 2 under along these lines probably call it something like Fier. The Kruje location should also be split again with a coastal location named Lac

Elbasan and Devol should also be split into Sopot and Pogradec respectively

Credit to @Nikicaga for this

 

[Sokasz]

I really, really, really do not like "Siebenbürger". Firstly, differentiating populations on the basis of endonyms should be avoided whenever possible because it is confusing. The words "Transylvanian" and "Siebenbürger" have the exact same meaning and it is silly to pretend otherwise.

More importantly, there is absolutely no such thing as a "Transylvanian" ethnic group. Nobody calls them that. Using this word to refer to specifically Transylvanian Saxons is a meme that was completely made up, as far I am aware, on this forum. It has no historical basis. These people were called Saxons in real life, both at the time and also historiographically.

(For the same reason, the so-called "Transylvanian" culture should not bear that name either, although the actual solution is that it should be deleted because there is zero historical basis for it).

They are literaly called Transylvanian Saxons.

Transylvanian Saxons - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Orestson]

Nice rework, I believe this map is so much better!

 

[Sokasz]

Dynamic Names

• Added tons of Albanian, Bulgarian German, East Slavic, Greek Hungarian, Romanian, Serbo-Croatian, Slovak, Transylvanian Saxon and Turkish, Dynamic Names.

Is this a typo, or do I just not know about Greek Hungarians?

 

[BeaverNation57]

1.) Why is Bulgarian not a South Slavic Language?

1). If that's your concern, then I think it would be more appropriate for South Slavic to be renamed to Serbo-Croatian. They may all say they're different languages, but just like Arabic, they're the same language.

 

[phantasmAgaric]

Another thing - looking at Greece, all of its areas correspond to classical regions - Attica, Boeotia, Epirus, Arcadia, etc. This makes Neopatras stick out like a sore thumb, given that it's a city rather than a region. The region it's in is Phthiotis.

 

[phantasmAgaric]

1). If that's your concern, then I think it would be more appropriate for South Slavic to be renamed to Serbo-Croatian. They may all say they're different languages, but just like Arabic, they're the same language.

They were actually more divergent in this period than they are now. Modern Serbian and Croatian are both based off the East Herzegovinian standard of the West Shtokavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian - a result of standardisation in the 19th and 20th centuries, pan-nationalism, and Ottoman advances causing mass migrations of speakers of the various South Slavic dialects. In the 1300s, Croatian was based on the Chakavian dialect, now spoken near-exclusively on Adriatic islands, and Serbian was based on East Shtokavian, which is slightly closer to e.g. Bulgarian than modern East Herzegovinian is.

Also of note is that the Zagorje and Drava regions (the historical Kingdom of Slavonia, around Zagreb) spoke the Kajkavian dialect, closer to Slovenian than to the Croatian Chakavian or the Serbian East Shtokavian. With the granularity we see in other cultures (splitting Romanian into Wallachian, Transylvanian, and Moldavian!) I think this could merit the addition of a Kajkavian-speaking Slavonian culture that may later merge into the Croatian, though no doubt this would upset a lot of people!