Tinto Maps #9 Carpathia and Balkans Feedback

[goplio]

The Tinto maps list the court languages of Bulgaria and Wallachia as being Bulgarian and Romanian, while both of them use Church Slavonic as a liturgical language. However, back then Bulgarian and Church Slavonic were actually the same language, today termed Middle Bulgarian — today's Church Slavonic, referring specifically to the East Slavic recension established by Smotritskyi, did not exist. Additionally, the Romanian principalities both used the Middle Bulgarian language as an administrative (until the 16th century) and liturgical (until the 18th century) language,

What I propose is this — either Bulgaria and the Romanian principalities have Church Slavonic as a both court and liturgical language, or they both have Bulgarian as a court language and Church Slavonic as a liturgical one (though either way the distinction between "Bulgarian" and "Church Slavonic" is rather fluid)

 

[Pls fix HRE]

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They're bad, but a cheap alternative to a country and economy devastated by civil war and invaded from all sides.

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Easy solution. If you accept to lose the civil war another instantly starts cause the former guy instantly gave up so why wouldnt the other.

 

[kro@]

Hello in this file I have submitted my feedback about the Balkans.
In it I have explained why the Bulgarian ethnicity must reach all the way to Belgrade and Morava river as well as south as Thessaly.
I have also suggested custom content for Bulgaria as well as Volga Bulgaria, but mostly it is about ethnicity.
And @Pavía please tell me if the development team agrees with what I've written and whether they would incorporate the changes I've mentioned in the document.
If somebody disagrees please explain why.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

bro prepared a master's degree dissertation for EU5

 

[Polesie Admiral]

Hello in this file I have submitted my feedback about the Balkans.
In it I have explained why the Bulgarian ethnicity must reach all the way to Belgrade and Morava river as well as south as Thessaly.
I have also suggested custom content for Bulgaria as well as Volga Bulgaria, but mostly it is about ethnicity.
And @Pavía please tell me if the development team agrees with what I've written and whether they would incorporate the changes I've mentioned in the document.
If somebody disagrees please explain why.

Jesus, 78 pages

 

[Inzano]

bro prepared a master's degree dissertation for EU5

If he only had taken the time to have everything in the same font.

 

[purplephoton]

I skimmed this so that you don’t have to, his main points seem to be:
-Kosovo is Bulgaria
-Serbia and Albania should have some Bulgarians
-Thessaly is Bulgaria
-Rusyns are Bulgarians
-Gagauz are Bulgarians
-Romania should have lots of Bulgarians
-Moldavia and Budjak should be [redacted since discussion of Moldavia is banned]
-Give Bulgarians cool unit graphics

 

[bokorthedust]

3rd Balkan War has been declared.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

I skimmed this so that you don’t have to, his main points seem to be:
-Kosovo is Bulgaria
-Serbia and Albania should have some Bulgarians
-Thessaly is Bulgaria
-Rusyns are Bulgarians
-Gagauz are Bulgarians
-Romania should have lots of Bulgarians
-Moldavia and Budjak should be [redacted since discussion of Moldavia is banned]
-Give Bulgarians cool unit graphics

we found a solution for m*ld*va it seems

 

[Polesie Admiral]

3rd Balkan War has been declared.

bulgaria not learning from the second tsk tsk

 

[kro@]

I skimmed this so that you don’t have to, his main points seem to be:
-Kosovo is Bulgaria
-Serbia and Albania should have some Bulgarians
-Thessaly is Bulgaria
-Rusyns are Bulgarians
-Gagauz are Bulgarians
-Romania should have lots of Bulgarians
-Moldavia and Budjak should be [redacted since discussion of Moldavia is banned]
-Give Bulgarians cool unit graphics

Firstly only South Eastern part of Kosovo, and I have proven it using not only Bulgarian but Serbian, Bosnian and Russian writers.

East Serbia all the way to Morava should be Bulgarian due to dialects, village types and past assimilation of Slavic communities by Bulgarians.

No Thessaly should have some Bulgarian minority not majority.

I saw this and this isn't a way to prove that Rusins are Bulgarians more so to show that they are distinct group with a probability for them to have Bulgarian background.

Yes Gagauz are Bulgarians as well as there were Bulgarians in present day Romania due to these lands being Conquered by Asparuh and getting their religion form the Bulgarians and using Slavonic as their liturgical language. If the Vlachs spoke todays version of Romanian they wouldn't be able to understand anything. Therefore they spoke language with Slavic vocabulary with some Latin grammar.

It is possible Bessarabia to be under Bulgarian control since Theodor Svetoslav has controlled it, even though his son may have lost it. But still there were no Sources stating an invasion. And if the golden horde controlled it then it would still have significant Bulgarian population. Although the raids in Thrace initiated in 1324 and 1337 may have conquered Bessarabia.
Also when Umur Bey Aydınoğlu raids Dobruja and the black sea coast Ivan Aleksander tells the Golden Horde which send Contingents and kills the Turks, so they could have given away Bessarabia for the protection of the Golden Horde

 

[Ispil]

In all honesty given the cultural map that we've already been presented:

I don't even think any of those suggestions are that much of a stretch, given the map we already have? At least, Bulgarian pop distribution-wise. Though I'm usually pretty disinterested when it comes to pop distribution suggestions.

The political side of things I'm inclined to lean towards the status quo (more specifically regarding Bessarabia, because at least on that front the sources I've read made it rather plainly clear that the Golden Horde had control up to the Danube at this time). Though from what I can tell most of those political suggestions are mostly also encompassed with a wider Bulgarian diaspora, which seems perfectly fine to me.

Again, though, rather disinterested on that front; you could show me a map painting the entire region as Greek in 1337 and I'd probably reply with a "hey, if you've got the data".

 

[Inzano]

3rd Balkan War has been declared.

I hope this one will be nipped in the bud, with laughter.

 

[purplephoton]

Firstly only South Eastern part of Kosovo, and I have proven it using not only Bulgarian but Serbian, Bosnian and Russian writers.

East Serbia all the way to Morava should be Bulgarian due to dialects, village types and past assimilation of Slavic communities by Bulgarians.

No Thessaly should have some Bulgarian minority not majority.

I saw this and this isn't a way to prove that Rusins are Bulgarians more so to show that they are distinct group with a probability for them to have Bulgarian background.

Yes Gagauz are Bulgarians as well as there were Bulgarians in present day Romania due to these lands being Conquered by Asparuh and getting their religion form the Bulgarians and using Slavonic as their liturgical language. If the Vlachs spoke todays version of Romanian they wouldn't be able to understand anything. Therefore they spoke language with Slavic vocabulary with some Latin grammar.

It is possible Bessarabia to be under Bulgarian control since Theodor Svetoslav has controlled it, even though his son may have lost it. But still there were no Sources stating an invasion. And if the golden horde controlled it then it would still have significant Bulgarian population.

On a more serious note:
-There has been a lot of debate about how the transitional zone in Eastern Serbia should be shown, and no consensus. I see no reason why this zone shouldn’t be extended into Kosovo, but that’s not going to bring us any closer to a consensus. Personally I’m a fan of a separate culture as a compromise, but PDX doesn’t want to divide cultures too much.
-Thessaly probably already has a Bulgarian minority. I'm guessing it’s hard to get data on exactly how large it should be. So this suggestion isn’t much of a stretch, but also might be more difficult to make convincing.
-Rusyn culture is complicated, because there are basically two different cultures. The incoming Rusyn culture is very definitely Western Ukrainian. The outgoing one seems to have been too close to the original Common Slavic stock to be clearly defined as, say, Bulgarian. As for similar sounding words, those aren’t a guarantee of anything on their own. After all, nobody puts Czech and Ukrainian in a subgroup of Slavic by themselves just because of the voiced glottal fricative. Should Rusyn culture be separate? In my opinion, yes. Should it have some Bulgarian origin that the game doesnt even represent? Feel free to make it part of your own personal lore when you play, I guess.
-Gagauz being Bulgarian is one theory. Arguably even the most likely one. But even if true, the burden of proof is on you that they lived in the same area in 1337.
-At the risk of getting banned - Moldavia have already been discussed way too much. The consensus is that there were very few, if any, left. As for Budjak, I’ve previously posted an argument that there should be a Christian minority of mostly Bulgarians along the coast; however, the area was controlled by Great Horde in 1337. Feel free to read through previous arguments, but keep in mind that discussing Moldavia is banned.

 

[kro@]

On a more serious note:
-There has been a lot of debate about how the transitional zone in Eastern Serbia should be shown, and no consensus. I see no reason why this zone shouldn’t be extended into Kosovo, but that’s not going to bring us any closer to a consensus. Personally I’m a fan of a separate culture as a compromise, but PDX doesn’t want to divide cultures too much.
-Thessaly already has a Bulgarian minority. It’s hard to get data on exactly how large it should be. So this suggestion isn’t much of a stretch, but also might be more difficult to make convincing.
-Rusyn culture is complicated, because there are basically two different cultures. The incoming Rusyn culture is very definitely Western Ukrainian. The outgoing one seems to have been too close to the original Common Slavic stock to be clearly defined as, say, Bulgarian. As for similar sounding words, those aren’t a guarantee of anything on their own. After all, nobody puts Czech and Ukrainian in a subgroup of Slavic by themselves just because of the voiced glottal fricative. Should Rusyn culture be separate? In my opinion, yes. Should it have some Bulgarian origin that the game doesnt even represent? Feel free to make it part of your own personal lore when you play, I guess.
-Gagauz being Bulgarian is one theory. Arguably even the most likely one. But even if true, the burden of proof is on you that they lived in the same area in 1337.
-At the risk of getting banned - Moldavia have already been discussed way too much. The consensus is that there were very few, if any, left. As for Budjak, I’ve previously posted an argument that there should be a Christian minority of mostly Bulgarians along the coast; however, the area was controlled by Great Horde in 1337. Feel free to read through previous arguments, but keep in mind that discussing Moldavia is banned.

But as Serbian historians say the Settlements there are different and the language is closer to Bulgarian. The population there has been Slavic and after the 10th century the people have probably Bulgarian conscience.
Thessaly is really a difficult matter but there would probably be around 10-15% Bulgarian population if the authors mention them.
As for the Rusins I share your opinion on them being separate people they would have lost their Bulgarian roots, but Bulgaria has controlled these lands for about 100 years and these people couldn't be called lets say Serbs, but they could have Bulgarian roots. As Gesta Hungarorum says there were Bulgarians and Slavs in Ultras Silva which encompasses the lands of the Rusyn.

 

[ibvfteh]

Hello in this file I have submitted my feedback about the Balkans.
In it I have explained why the Bulgarian ethnicity must reach all the way to Belgrade and Morava river as well as south as Thessaly.
I have also suggested custom content for Bulgaria as well as Volga Bulgaria, but mostly it is about ethnicity.
And @Pavía please tell me if the development team agrees with what I've written and whether they would incorporate the changes I've mentioned in the document.
If somebody disagrees please explain why.

For Dobruja and Macedonia you have only used data from 17-18 century - this is way to modern. A lot of people assimilated/moved during hundreds of years.

Syrmia and Banat - fully reversed situation. 9th-10th century. However modern maps show there are Serbian population. So, where the flip happened? I think this should have been your main focus point here. I believe somewhere here people stated that Serbian population started moved to Banat close to the start date of the game, making what is currently shown by developers.

Walachia - everything is based on „Bulgarian tsar ruled over Bulgarian solders“ speculation. The Old Church Slavonic/Bulgarian was a common language of those lands without a doubt. I believe everyone could speak with everyone, and rule over anyone.
„Skipping controversy“
Later about Walachia you say 15%-30% of population is Bulgarian. Unfortunately this is a baseless claim, there were no data provided supporting it. All you have said before is maybe 5000 solders.

 

[kro@]

For Dobruja and Macedonia you have only used data from 17-18 century - this is way to modern. A lot of people assimilated/moved during hundreds of years.

Syrmia and Banat - fully reversed situation. 9th-10th century. However modern maps show there are Serbian population. So, where the flip happened? I think this should have been your main focus point here. I believe somewhere here people stated that Serbian population started moved to Banat close to the start date of the game, making what is currently shown by developers.

Walachia - everything is based on „Bulgarian tsar ruled over Bulgarian solders“ speculation. The Old Church Slavonic/Bulgarian was a common language of those lands without a doubt. I believe everyone could speak with everyone, and rule over anyone.
„Skipping controversy“
Later about Walachia you say 15%-30% of population is Bulgarian. Unfortunately this is a baseless claim, there were no data provided supporting it. All you have said before is maybe 5000 solders.

Yes for Macedonia and Dobruja we have no other data. There weren't any major migrations to Macedonia, there were even migrations to other Bulgarian lands such as Kosovo and the Sparely populated Morava valley.
For Dobruja there were some migrations from there to Wallachia. In the end of the 15 century 11 071 Christian houses in the Silistra vilayet and in 1668-1669 there were 2310 Cristian houses which shows the migration form Northern Bulgaria to Wallachia, Novorossiya, Moldavia.
So the population in Banat was most likely Bulgarian in the14 century, but around the late 14 century the Serbs must have migrated family by gamily not only from Serbian Morava valley, but also from Bosnia and Raška.
The migration in Syrmia would have started most likely in the beginning of the 14 century, but the migration would not nave been in a large quantity and forceful, more like as a place to find good opportunities.
During this time Wallachia would probably be a Bulgarian vassal, but very autonomous, this is form the Document about trade and that the guards there were corrupt and Ivan Aleksander had to deal with them.
Also the cities of Giurgiu and Holavnik today Turnu Măgurele would be under direct Bulgarian rule. Also Bulgaria has had control over this land during the 1st Tsardom and Briefly around 50-75 years during the Second Tsardom. The population which has been there between the 8 and 11 century considered itself bulgarian and then the Cumans come and pillage everything. There would be some Bulgarian Survivors and also the Bulgarians live in Zadrugas which helps them preserve their identity and in this time I doubt that all the Vlachs aren't settled surely there are Katuns which would make it hard to account for the Vach population.AS well as if there were no Bulgarians why do the Nikopol (Tarnovo Tsardom)and Vidin (Vidin Tsardom) sanjak go north of the Danube in the "Danubii Fluminis (hic ab Urbe Belgrado ...) Pars Infima in qua Transylvania, Walachia". Which would also suggest the sizable bulgarian population be it after migrations of around 50 000- 60 000 families without the initial wave in the late 14th century. But 300 or more years of Bulgarian rule should have left some population there.
I don't want to get banned but Abulfeda in his expination of the Dnieper river wrote: "along its shores are numerous settlements of Bulgarians and Turks." And he wrote about Belgrade (Akkerman)- “Akkerman is a city in the land of the Bulgarians and the Turks, in the seventh climate. It is small and is situated by the Black Sea… It is situated on a plain. Some of its inhabitants are Muslims, and others are infidels [Christians]. Not far from the city the river Torlu [Dniester] flows into the sea.”
So by his explanations we see that there were some Bulgarians in the Kara Bulgar which is today Ukraine to Volga Bulgaria.