Updates on Modding and Performance for Cities: Skylines II

[SCP173]

We warned you! The game will be laggy without optimisation! Dont mind, bring the money and pay us!
So can we pay half of the game price first and then bring the other half in the next few months? Reason is lost for developers

 

[SCP173]

If this game with simcity 2013 graphics is going to lag on my PC, I hope steam approves a refound quickly

 

[LVTrish]

Pretty disappointing to hear about the lack of Workshop support. I hope you all aren't making another bonehead decision. My excitement for this game seems to drop with each new announcement.

 

[gekj]

For all my experience in videogame, never seen a game which had a major improvement in performance after release.

So if the performance is trash at release it will be trash for a long time. There is no magic button to double fps on a game.

Like it has already said they use a trash engine which is unity, an engine not design for this kind of game. So there is no miracle for the performance.

CO is trying to sell us some dream and hope.

 

[Doctor Machete]

I'm not convinced of that. If it was just a detail issue then there's no real need to delay the console release this much. Turn down the settings so the console GPU can handle it and you're set. It won't look as flashy, but it'll work.

Even if is a sign of very bad optimization the 3080 at 1080p is still recommended and not minimum specs. You should have enough margin to downgrade graphic quality in exchange for fps.

So there's a problem there... but I think the CPU is likely also a problem. The recommended CPU is well above what's in any console, by a couple of generations (two by AMD count, since thats whats in the consoles).

Even with the PC overhead, again, that's still recommended and not minimum. I suspect the CPU has to do more with how large a city we'll be able to grow while keeping acceptable simulation speed, and GPU for keeping decent fps.

Maybe you'll be able to build a 3M city with a high end rig but only a 100k city with a min spec CPU. And then there is the in-between.

 

[homerCCCP]

So instead of delaying the game to add Steam Workshop support and patch the game so it works on anything but a supercomputer, you're greedily releasing it early on PC because you can? Unlike the Console versions which are obviously not at the standard required to pass the Microsoft/Sony certification process?

This is going to be a disaster at launch. I'm thinking it'll be lucky to hit a 70 on metacritic if the performance issues are what we're expecting + the downgrades to citizen size + no steam workshop.

Still nobody is able to explain me, why they just can't wait to buy the game later, if you think delay would significantly improve it.

What does it help you taking from ME the possibility to play what was visible in the streams. It is absolutely good enough for me.

What would be the added value for YOU taking this away from ME. You don't need to buy it. I just don't get people getting upset.

"Gaming industry just should learn they are not rewarded for squeezing out every cent out of the customer" - Is it that what you want? A punishment for them?


The game is not out yet and I am already tired by this community.
I promise you I will have fun with this game.

 

[mackau]

if you think delay would significantly improve it.

Because the dev team for a game pre-launch, and the dev team for a game post-launch are wildly different.

It also goes from "we're building the game to launch" to "we have to fix issues with the game as it is right now, and work on future patches that will take longer time to create, and work on post-launch DLC to make cash."

And they have to do it with probably 10% of the coders that were working on the game pre-launch. Long term planning goes right out the window because the dev team doesn't have the time or manpower or budget to do fixes for a game that's already on sale.

An example I'll give is Battlefield 2142. After it's disaster rushed launch EA sacked or re-deployed 95% of the dev team. So instead of the content you would expect, which was 4 maps per "season" and more vehicles, the reduced crew was only large enough time to add one new map per season (while having to fix the poorly made original maps) and only limited amounts of extra effort was put into the game AND some of what they added was done simply because it was the easiest things to add (example, one of the new maps was a small dev sandbox turned into a map, and the final map added is a tiny map ripped off from an earlier games map).

And since we are talking about a Paradox Studio game, I have two words for you. Imperator Rome.

 

[homerCCCP]

Because the dev team for a game pre-launch, and the dev team for a game post-launch are wildly different.

It also goes from "we're building the game to launch" to "we have to fix issues with the game as it is right now, and work on future patches that will take longer time to create, and work on post-launch DLC to make cash." And they have to do it with probably 10% of the coders that were working on the game pre-launch.

Ok so cashflow means that they reduce coders by 90%, while without cashflow they will run at 100%?
Is that what you try to tell me?

 

[mackau]

Ok so cashflow means that they reduce coders by 90%, while without cashflow they will run at 100%?
Is that what you try to tell me?

A game that isn't released hasn't booked any cashflow. It also trades that immediate cashflow for a better game, which should translate to better sales in the long run.

 

[Jiaye]

Come on guys, the only reason is that they can charge for mods and make a profit through them

 

[homerCCCP]

A game that isn't released hasn't booked any cashflow. It also trades that immediate cashflow for a better game, which should translate to better sales in the long run.

Well people want to be paid now and not in the long run.
I just don't see how delaying the game results in a company being able to pay developers for a longer time, unless the launch is such a disaster that all investors quit. In this case most likely the game will not be good at any point in time.

And as said, I am already satisfied by what I could see in the videos. I simply did not expect that any 2023 computer will be able to run at full speed an agent based fairly deep simulation of a city with more than 100k inhabitants.

Either you abstract or you bruteforce. The surprising thing are the high graphic demands, but what I saw on computers from streamers was also fine enough for me. I won't complain as long as we don't know what minimum and recommended means.

Here, however I understand everyone who does not want to buy anymore due to the increased spec. I would also wait if I would not still meet the new recommended specs.
Anyway concerning optimization, it is usually a quick win if you have thousands of people running the software rather than to optimize for a few test rigs.

Maybe I don't expect too much, I don't know, I can be on a hype train without thinking that there will nothing that I dislike.

 

[Ne0Que]

Let me put it this way:

The paradox mod platform MUST have a huge overhaul and added features for this to succeed. At least add dependency checking! By the looks of it, this mod platform is horrific and lacking in just basic needs for a general package manager. It's just awful and bad. I would like to browse the mod lib without the need to have the game running. And even better; make profiles possible so that we can just pick mods for certain plays.

So, Paradox, if you read this: Step it up, and make it a good package manager.

Also, I wonder, why unity was chosen again for the game engine while it was already for a very long time very clear that Unreal was going to release a huge upgrade that would basically, graphically wise support infinite detail. And it is written and possible to compile using c++ as for the simulation part in the background; making it a much better choice.

I'm happy with the steps taken to get mature about this game in general though; getting rid of the stupid (almost player insulting) cartoonish models was a good step. Most players who play these kind of games aren't 'casual' / uneducated people.

 

[LordTridus]

Even if is a sign of very bad optimization the 3080 at 1080p is still recommended and not minimum specs. You should have enough margin to downgrade graphic quality in exchange for fps.



Even with the PC overhead, again, that's still recommended and not minimum. I suspect the CPU has to do more with how large a city we'll be able to grow while keeping acceptable simulation speed, and GPU for keeping decent fps.

Maybe you'll be able to build a 3M city with a high end rig but only a 100k city with a min spec CPU. And then there is the in-between.

Big cities are one of the selling points of this game. If they don't work without a very high spec PC, thats a problem... because it'll mean they won't work on console at all, and "just don't play this selling feature part of the game" is not going to fly.

And recommended for 1080p generally means for good performance, not necessarily "everything maxed". A 3080 for 1080p is WAY more hardware than most games require for 1080p. It's also above what the consoles have. So the consoles are below what's recommended to run the game at 1080p, thats also a problem, because what kind of hardware is going to be needed at any higher resolution?

 

[LordTridus]

And as said, I am already satisfied by what I could see in the videos. I simply did not expect that any 2023 computer will be able to run at full speed an agent based fairly deep simulation of a city with more than 100k inhabitants.

If you're making a game that doesn't work on the hardware people have now, you're doing something wrong. That's a reality of the market. People need to be able to play it. Like it not working on the hardware of 2023 is a huge problem when you want a console release because the consoles are the computers of 2019.

So if this gam requires a 2024 high end PC to work, just cancel that console release now. It'll never work properly until the PS6. Cyberpunk made this mistake with their PS4 release and they paid dearly for it.

 

[homerCCCP]

If you're making a game that doesn't work on the hardware people have now, you're doing something wrong. That's a reality of the market. People need to be able to play it. Like it not working on the hardware of 2023 is a huge problem when you want a console release because the consoles are the computers of 2019.

So if this gam requires a 2024 high end PC to work, just cancel that console release now. It'll never work properly until the PS6. Cyberpunk made this mistake with their PS4 release and they paid dearly for it.

Who said it is not working?

I said a 2023 computer can not properly run an agent based simulation with a high number of agents. That are physical boundries. At some point you will always have exactly these boundries even in 2030 or whenever, just that they will be higher.
Does not mean the game is not working...

 

[Doctor Machete]

Big cities are one of the selling points of this game. If they don't work without a very high spec PC, thats a problem... because it'll mean they won't work on console at all, and "just don't play this selling feature part of the game" is not going to fly.

I might be wrong but my assumption is the 3080 would be enough to cope with a big city and many settings maxed but probably not some of the most demanding.

Still really huge cities (like let's say 3M) might only be possible with really high-end rigs.

And recommended for 1080p generally means for good performance, not necessarily "everything maxed".

I know, but it doesn't matter. My point is that there is still a huge gap between minimum and recommended specs. And that is with "minimum" being much more than just being able to run the game but the minimum considered for a reasonably enjoyable experience with the game (which sure is highly subjective).

 

[antrachton]

What a mess.
Revealing all of this a week before launch is borderline manipulative.
The decision for Paradox mods was made a long time ago and the fact you decide to reveal it now after getting all of these preorders seems malicious to me.

Let's return the prepurchased game... Mass refunds are the only language some companies understand.

I'm still waiting for a clarification on how paradox mods and assets platform is gonna work if all other games there have it done manually, which is a massive no. If not clarified I'll request the refund just before the release.
It's a dumb disappointment but I already expressed my concerns a few months ago when they part revealed their paradox platform intentions. That has never been clarified.

 

[mackau]

I wonder, why unity was chosen again for the game engine

Probably cheaper to license, and cheaper to use in terms of development budget and recruitment when CO being used to Unity & only recruiting Unity devs.

I remember the irony that the first big game trailer for CS2 was made in Unreal and they had to come out later and confirm "no, the game is in Unity". Talk about a bait & switch.

 

[Keltia_Vikinga]

Hi, I translated that announcement to CimFrance/CS France site...

Now,
I'm afraid the paradox mods is an update of this : https://mods.paradoxplaza.com/games/cities_skylines?orderBy=desc&sortBy=best (my thought since i saw yr streams with "paradox mods" ingame)
but as long sony/ms don't change their mind, it will look same as the current page but for CS2 of course

I don't see much interest to "bother" pc community with it as am not sure approval conditions of entrance for modders are same as on steam for this platform. I've seen a bit for the win 10 edition and btw, see only xbox mods remains nowadays. and its not quite popular thing... You may remove that Windows filter off that page now.

On Steam, when one ends support for its own mods, other people can bring the project back to life. Am not sure things will be as easy on Paradox mods. and those people aren't selected folks but free people happy to help as they can, and without deal or condition or whatever, and maybe that's why sharing and open source work great overall. PC Players were happy with steam workshop despite its not perfect

You know am not a huge mods player and rather these mods ingame for me than install thousand mods, CS 2 already sound like the right thing to me when i think to this, so good. And thank you.

Now, the game unreleased and even after, once freshly released, was it necessary to work with modders already on pre-release ? I would have wait people to discover the game before. mainly when i know a lot of things have been upgraded/added in CS2.


That's my opinion only. Bring us Tsunami ingame, not on yr forums ^^
With kind regards

 

[Deterok]

First of all, I want to say that I appreciate your honesty. I don’t know any other company that would openly admit that their game’s performance is not up to par. But why did you remove the support for steam workshop? That was a great feature that many players enjoyed.

I decided to give your game a chance and see it for myself after its release. I can always request a refund if I don’t like something, and the lack of a convenient platform for mods is a valid reason for that. But I still want to see it with my own eyes first.