Jaronpinochet: I don't think Vinland converting to Islam is a possibility. And I think most people here would agree...
It was a good story you had written for it though.
It was a good story you had written for it though.
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I doubt that they were Catholics in the traditional fashion, please remember that the Vinlanders are supposed to be somewhat isolated out there..Leif Eriksson and his family had been baptised but in those days things were pretty different and the Vinlanders wouldn´t be directly in contact with the Pope and Rome..
If you want to know what kind of catholics Vinland was read the game description for Kongo. They were "catholic" too
Originally posted by Wasa
I doubt that they were Catholics in the traditional fashion, please remember that the Vinlanders are supposed to be somewhat isolated out there..Leif Eriksson and his family had been baptised but in those days things were pretty different and the Vinlanders wouldn´t be directly in contact with the Pope and Rome..
Especially after some 400 years of sporadic contact, in this particular scenario.
Mad King does admittedly have credibility in his arguement though. Should we start as pagans with the possibility of remaining pagan (going native), converting to hinduism (a return to the old norse) or re-affirming their somewhat severed ties with christianity (catholicism).
Olav Tryggvason came from England with many ships and men in the summer of AD 995. He came to claim the throne of Norway and to bring Christianity to the country. He went ashore on the island of Moster on the west coast of Norway. He was accompanied by several English priests and a bishop called Grimkjell. On the island Olav Tryggvason held the first official mass in Norway. About 35 years later Norway was officially a Christian country.
So at the time Vinland was founded, Christianity had been the state religion of Norway.
The Danes had for a long time before 995 been familiar with Christians and Christianity. In the Viking city of Hedeby Christians and worshippers of Odin and Thor were living side by side. The Christians had their cross, the pagan Vikings decided to use Thor's hammer as their symbol. In Hedeby you could buy both at the jewellers' shop. The Swedes travelled along the Russian rivers to Byzantium. In Hagia Sophia, the biggest church in the world at the time, you can still read some Viking rune-graffiti.
The Norwegians had met the "Cross-men" when they landed in England and Ireland. A lot of Scandinavians settled in Britain and you can still find gravestones in England with both the Thor's hammer and a cross. Better safe than sorry, these Vikings must have thought. On the west coast of Norway 60 stone-crosses made earlier than 995 have been found. They are of a kind otherwise not found outside Britain and Ireland.
This might help to explain why the conversion to Christianity happened so fast. People were already familiar with the "new faith". An illustration of how fast it all happened is the saga of Olav Haraldson. As a teenager he was given ships and men by his father to "go Viking". During this period he became famous for pulling down London bridge. He died in the battle of Stiklestad in Norway some years later in a battle against local pagans and was made a saint by the church. Even today, both in Scandinavia and Britain, St. Olaf's churches are easy to find.
What happened to the old faith? The pagan "Yuletide" became Christmas, but Scandinavians still use the word "Jul" for Christmas. The fertility rites used in spring to ensure good harvests were substituted by blessings from the Christian priests, but for hundreds of years many farmers also added some of the old rites just to be sure. Each Viking farm had its own "farm-god" or "protector", in modern Danish and Norwegian called a "Nisse" and in Swedish a "Tomte". The Christian St. Nicholas or Santa and the Nisse/Tomte have today become one, and each Christmas Eve the children in Scandinavia are waiting for Father Christmas, or as they call him, the Nisse or Tomte, to arrive with gifts.
So at the time Vinland was founded, Christianity had been the state religion of Norway.
The Danes had for a long time before 995 been familiar with Christians and Christianity. In the Viking city of Hedeby Christians and worshippers of Odin and Thor were living side by side. The Christians had their cross, the pagan Vikings decided to use Thor's hammer as their symbol. In Hedeby you could buy both at the jewellers' shop. The Swedes travelled along the Russian rivers to Byzantium. In Hagia Sophia, the biggest church in the world at the time, you can still read some Viking rune-graffiti.
The Norwegians had met the "Cross-men" when they landed in England and Ireland. A lot of Scandinavians settled in Britain and you can still find gravestones in England with both the Thor's hammer and a cross. Better safe than sorry, these Vikings must have thought. On the west coast of Norway 60 stone-crosses made earlier than 995 have been found. They are of a kind otherwise not found outside Britain and Ireland.
This might help to explain why the conversion to Christianity happened so fast. People were already familiar with the "new faith". An illustration of how fast it all happened is the saga of Olav Haraldson. As a teenager he was given ships and men by his father to "go Viking". During this period he became famous for pulling down London bridge. He died in the battle of Stiklestad in Norway some years later in a battle against local pagans and was made a saint by the church. Even today, both in Scandinavia and Britain, St. Olaf's churches are easy to find.
What happened to the old faith? The pagan "Yuletide" became Christmas, but Scandinavians still use the word "Jul" for Christmas. The fertility rites used in spring to ensure good harvests were substituted by blessings from the Christian priests, but for hundreds of years many farmers also added some of the old rites just to be sure. Each Viking farm had its own "farm-god" or "protector", in modern Danish and Norwegian called a "Nisse" and in Swedish a "Tomte". The Christian St. Nicholas or Santa and the Nisse/Tomte have today become one, and each Christmas Eve the children in Scandinavia are waiting for Father Christmas, or as they call him, the Nisse or Tomte, to arrive with gifts.
but there were still some norweigans who werent christians and presumebly some of them reached Vinland and a mix of christianity and paganism surely existed.
MKJ: I have some knowledge of the history, I live in a part of Scandinavia with many St.Olovs churches and chapels..
I simply mean that if the Vinlanders had been isolated, the catholic church wouldn´t mean a thing to them..
It wasn´t really Catholic in Scandinavia either, not before 1150-1200 anyway when the Popes tightened their grip by promoting the different Bishops sees of Scandinavia..
I simply mean that if the Vinlanders had been isolated, the catholic church wouldn´t mean a thing to them..
It wasn´t really Catholic in Scandinavia either, not before 1150-1200 anyway when the Popes tightened their grip by promoting the different Bishops sees of Scandinavia..
Starting Pagan?! That's the least likely choice, North American Paganism is a very big jump from Asa, much bigger than the one from Asa to Christianity. For the latter, you just have to cut the gods you worship down to one, the former requires a very big change in thinking, NA Paganism is Animism, "Brother Fish" and "Uncle Raven" and stuff like that. Animism has no afterlife seperate from this plane of existence (the Spirits of the Ancestors) and their form of worship even Asa believing Europeans would find bizarre.
I assume that Christianity is no longer the religion of the state, since Asa was never a state religion, Christianity sort of filled a void, so this is a BIT of a leap, but if it isn't, there should still be a presence there.
Originally posted by Wasa
MKJ: I have some knowledge of the history, I live in a part of Scandinavia with many St.Olovs churches and chapels..
I simply mean that if the Vinlanders had been isolated, the catholic church wouldn´t mean a thing to them..
It wasn´t really Catholic in Scandinavia either, not before 1150-1200 anyway when the Popes tightened their grip by promoting the different Bishops sees of Scandinavia..
Asa never was the state religion though, before Christianity there WAS no state religion. Maybe I'll fiddle with the catholic missionary then
Mad King James,
Hello, 2000 years ago when my ancestors settled north america and worshipped "brother fish" and "uncle raven" as you put it, it wasnt so much a religion as a belief. You could say religion is nothing more than a belief but consider this. Native 'religion' was more in terms of RESPECT, wheras traditional religion is about WORSHIP. They did not (NOT) worship trees and goats. Pagan for Vinland would be wrong. So would catholicism. More likely you are gonna have maybe 1 PROVINCE catholic and the rest whatever you are making norweigan paganism. State religion should be the latter. St. Olaf would have a church in say Vanosterbotten but a shrine to odin could exist in Vormylk. Anyways what is 'John' in norweigan? I think Jaron sounds kinda like John but its hebrew!! Mad King Johan..but Johan is john in swedish i think..haha. Anyways, I think the nation should start with hinduism or whatever. You know, why dont you get rid of confusion or whatever the chinese religion is, make them buddhist, and use confusion religion for your own purposes. Its relatively narrow in terms of expansion compared to hinduism or islam, so it wont be missed much!! i mean come on, it wouldnt be hard for people to back up ONE file so you can name it something else!! unless the whole point is to make it fully compatible with EU2 so people dont have to worry about that then you just make them catholic or pagan.
Hello, 2000 years ago when my ancestors settled north america and worshipped "brother fish" and "uncle raven" as you put it, it wasnt so much a religion as a belief. You could say religion is nothing more than a belief but consider this. Native 'religion' was more in terms of RESPECT, wheras traditional religion is about WORSHIP. They did not (NOT) worship trees and goats. Pagan for Vinland would be wrong. So would catholicism. More likely you are gonna have maybe 1 PROVINCE catholic and the rest whatever you are making norweigan paganism. State religion should be the latter. St. Olaf would have a church in say Vanosterbotten but a shrine to odin could exist in Vormylk. Anyways what is 'John' in norweigan? I think Jaron sounds kinda like John but its hebrew!! Mad King Johan..but Johan is john in swedish i think..haha. Anyways, I think the nation should start with hinduism or whatever. You know, why dont you get rid of confusion or whatever the chinese religion is, make them buddhist, and use confusion religion for your own purposes. Its relatively narrow in terms of expansion compared to hinduism or islam, so it wont be missed much!! i mean come on, it wouldnt be hard for people to back up ONE file so you can name it something else!! unless the whole point is to make it fully compatible with EU2 so people dont have to worry about that then you just make them catholic or pagan.
Geez man chill out, I was making the point that American Paganism is well... weird... to European mentalities
And actually the real religious situation is impossible to simulate, it's a nominally christian populace that still practices a lot of Asa rituals. In other words they weren't one or the other they were both...
And where did I say worship?
oh sorry. didnt mean to offend you. I just think that paganism is so broad. and what makes them 'pagan' they dont believe in YOUR god? as in your i dont mean anyone personally just in general I like your events you posted!! I agree with you that Vinland should start with Kongo! But I dont get what you mean about Assa? Is that a religon in Finland?
I like your events you posted!! I agree with you that Vinland should start with Kongo! But I dont get what you mean about Assa? Is that a religon in Finland?
Originally posted by jaronpinochet
oh sorry. didnt mean to offend you. I just think that paganism is so broad. and what makes them 'pagan' they dont believe in YOUR god? as in your i dont mean anyone personally just in general
Paganism is the term Christians used for Pantheistic religions (Greek and Roman Mythology, Norse, Slavic etc) It eventually became a catchword for all non-monotheistic religions. (ie. not Jewish or Muslim or Christian)
Asa is a name for Norse beliefs
'Pagan' is only SUPPOSED to apply to Pantheistic religions though, Wicca or north american faiths have been (in the 20th century anyways) been reclassified as 'Animist'.
In the general sense, there are three religions on earth, Animism, Pantheism, and Monotheism.
We should stick with "hinduism" at least from the outset... as we have already done.
No one is saying christians aint there, but they dont represent an active or recognisable form imho.
No one is saying christians aint there, but they dont represent an active or recognisable form imho.
By the way, why would the King of Vinland be hunting alone in Micmac territory? Or be on the mainland at all? And bump into the Chief's daughter?!?
This sort of thing just didn't happen... The chief formally offering his daughter to the king would work, but only if the Vinlanders aren't Catholic. An Asa king would accept her as a second wife though. This would make an interesting dilemma if the same king gets an option to convert to Christianity, because he would have to divorce his second wife, pissing off the Micmacs
And bump into the Chief's daughter?!?This sort of thing just didn't happen... The chief formally offering his daughter to the king would work, but only if the Vinlanders aren't Catholic. An Asa king would accept her as a second wife though. This would make an interesting dilemma if the same king gets an option to convert to Christianity, because he would have to divorce his second wife, pissing off the Micmacs
He was on the mainland because thats where the best hunting grounds are. She was lost in the forest. and he wants to marry her. bad. and she wants to use him to rock the huron. because vinlands warriors are better than micmac. he wasnt alone PER SE but maybe detached from his hunting party. all kings like to hunt jah know? so if event = whatever and this christianity event pops up, we get a diplomatic disaster with micma do you think the marriage making them a vassal is going too far? If the chiefs daughter married the king maybe that is going too far..at best its a RM and relation boost. I think if the chief was dead and SOMEHOW she was 'chieftess' or whatever which she wouldnt be, it'd be appropriate but not now. Do you like my conversion to sunni event?
do you think the marriage making them a vassal is going too far? If the chiefs daughter married the king maybe that is going too far..at best its a RM and relation boost. I think if the chief was dead and SOMEHOW she was 'chieftess' or whatever which she wouldnt be, it'd be appropriate but not now. Do you like my conversion to sunni event?