I know
Of course I'm assuming the Vinlanders aren't too picky about crossing into Quebec, and I assume they consider everything north of Vinland and south of Helluland is 'Markland' -
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I know
Of course I'm assuming the Vinlanders aren't too picky about crossing into Quebec, and I assume they consider everything north of Vinland and south of Helluland is 'Markland' 
Originally posted by Mad King James
I know
Well, that's probably as close we can get to the truth
This raises a good point, once they figure out Vinland is an island, what are they going to call the other 'new lands' they discover?
Let's see, we've got 'Worm Land' 'Wine Land' and 'Lucky Land' what should Isle Royale be how about 'Fjordøy' ('bay island' once they find out it's in the middle of what they think is a bay)? I propose Flodland for Quebec ('river land') south of there is 'Skraelingland'
Let's see, we've got 'Worm Land' 'Wine Land' and 'Lucky Land' what should Isle Royale be how about 'Fjordøy' ('bay island' once they find out it's in the middle of what they think is a bay)? I propose Flodland for Quebec ('river land') south of there is 'Skraelingland'
So much for my working day I can't help but constantly think about this excellent scenario and the potential it has.
Relations with the Micmac Tribe, and ideas for Events
Early relations with the Micmacs will of course be crucial it determining the nature of the vinalnd players progression in north america. This tribe don’t strictly stand in the way of Vinland should they wish to expand heavily into north america, but enevitably conflicts will arise between vinland and some native tribe. In 1419 the territories will not actually have a common land border if my provincial ideas remain as they now are. This is actually a bonus. For example, In order to seriously attack the Micmacs the Vinland player will need to mount a serious naval assault, something that is likely to cost heavily in casualties and resources. This could be far better spent aiding against the Huron with the Micmacs with a smaller transport of "token" forces. Religon will also play a massive part in the future of vinland and north america as time goes by. Based upon the events I have seen scripted in part so far this is a summary of how they might interact with the natives using those events.
1420's
This should be characterised by a high starting relations value between vinland and micmac. The chief opponent, to draw the vinland player in immediately, should be whether to assist and aid the Micmac in the task of securing their ancient hunting grounds from Huron predators. Bjarni Eiríksson should be protrayed, imho, as the archetypal viking warrior chief. Honourable, Imposing yet Diplomatic. It would be his decision, from the outset of the game, to decide on the long term fate of the colony. An event should occur almost immediately, to avoid any quick DoW's, signifying Huron raids into Micmac hunting grounds, and their calls for assistance to the Vinlanders. This decision is fundamental to the intial direction of the vinlanders military and trade efforts and who they primarily interact with. This event should be relatively persuasive in swaying vinlanders to ally with the micmacs for the better of the community.
1430 - 40's
These years are characterised by the rasher rule of Þorvaldr helluflagi who is killed in 1439 during his now famous expidition. Fortunately this event can be written to cater for two separate possibilities. If the vinlanders have soured relations with the Micmacs by refusing to assist against the Huron this could potentially occur in Micmac territory... or alternatively if allied/friendly with the Micmacs this would then have likely occurred in Huron territory. We just wake and sleep the differently worded events. His widow, Þorgerðr in fróða, takes up the reign of power immediately afterwards, and is forced to make a decision on the fate of the tribe involved, all tribes, or to take no action at all that would endanger the colony.
1450's
The Heresy Of Einarr øxnamegin dominates this decade as the player is forced to make a pretty hefty decision about the future of vinland based upon the arrival of Einarr øxnamegin from the wilderness. His origins should be dependant on who the Vinlander is allied with, or at war against. His return to Vinland, and if elected, would have a profound impact on the nature of vinland. Not only do they practically merge culturally with the abenaki (Micmac) or huron (Huron) but they should almost assuredly be faced with an appropriate religious option. I think, so long as micmac exists, he should have been raised in Micmac land. His arrival would heal any rifts with vinland, or merely strenghten already strong ties. But he should be seen as a religious bridge between the two peoples.
Also rather cooly, if he isnt selected he could return to micmac as a ruler for them? That'd be pretty cool. This could even change the tech group of the micmacs or give them other "westernising" bonuses/events.
Just some ideas I am cobbling together about the early vinland history that is possible. The Micmacs have made early events likely and often enough to keep the player entertained as time gets closer to early european intrusion. Please comment/add as you see fit.
I can't help but constantly think about this excellent scenario and the potential it has.Relations with the Micmac Tribe, and ideas for Events
Early relations with the Micmacs will of course be crucial it determining the nature of the vinalnd players progression in north america. This tribe don’t strictly stand in the way of Vinland should they wish to expand heavily into north america, but enevitably conflicts will arise between vinland and some native tribe. In 1419 the territories will not actually have a common land border if my provincial ideas remain as they now are. This is actually a bonus. For example, In order to seriously attack the Micmacs the Vinland player will need to mount a serious naval assault, something that is likely to cost heavily in casualties and resources. This could be far better spent aiding against the Huron with the Micmacs with a smaller transport of "token" forces. Religon will also play a massive part in the future of vinland and north america as time goes by. Based upon the events I have seen scripted in part so far this is a summary of how they might interact with the natives using those events.
1420's
This should be characterised by a high starting relations value between vinland and micmac. The chief opponent, to draw the vinland player in immediately, should be whether to assist and aid the Micmac in the task of securing their ancient hunting grounds from Huron predators. Bjarni Eiríksson should be protrayed, imho, as the archetypal viking warrior chief. Honourable, Imposing yet Diplomatic. It would be his decision, from the outset of the game, to decide on the long term fate of the colony. An event should occur almost immediately, to avoid any quick DoW's, signifying Huron raids into Micmac hunting grounds, and their calls for assistance to the Vinlanders. This decision is fundamental to the intial direction of the vinlanders military and trade efforts and who they primarily interact with. This event should be relatively persuasive in swaying vinlanders to ally with the micmacs for the better of the community.
1430 - 40's
These years are characterised by the rasher rule of Þorvaldr helluflagi who is killed in 1439 during his now famous expidition. Fortunately this event can be written to cater for two separate possibilities. If the vinlanders have soured relations with the Micmacs by refusing to assist against the Huron this could potentially occur in Micmac territory... or alternatively if allied/friendly with the Micmacs this would then have likely occurred in Huron territory. We just wake and sleep the differently worded events. His widow, Þorgerðr in fróða, takes up the reign of power immediately afterwards, and is forced to make a decision on the fate of the tribe involved, all tribes, or to take no action at all that would endanger the colony.
1450's
The Heresy Of Einarr øxnamegin dominates this decade as the player is forced to make a pretty hefty decision about the future of vinland based upon the arrival of Einarr øxnamegin from the wilderness. His origins should be dependant on who the Vinlander is allied with, or at war against. His return to Vinland, and if elected, would have a profound impact on the nature of vinland. Not only do they practically merge culturally with the abenaki (Micmac) or huron (Huron) but they should almost assuredly be faced with an appropriate religious option. I think, so long as micmac exists, he should have been raised in Micmac land. His arrival would heal any rifts with vinland, or merely strenghten already strong ties. But he should be seen as a religious bridge between the two peoples.
Also rather cooly, if he isnt selected he could return to micmac as a ruler for them? That'd be pretty cool. This could even change the tech group of the micmacs or give them other "westernising" bonuses/events.
Just some ideas I am cobbling together about the early vinland history that is possible. The Micmacs have made early events likely and often enough to keep the player entertained as time gets closer to early european intrusion. Please comment/add as you see fit.
Originally posted by Mad King James
This raises a good point, once they figure out Vinland is an island, what are they going to call the other 'new lands' they discover?
Let's see, we've got 'Worm Land' 'Wine Land' and 'Lucky Land' what should Isle Royale be how about 'Fjordøy' ('bay island' once they find out it's in the middle of what they think is a bay)? I propose Flodland for Quebec ('river land') south of there is 'Skraelingland'
According to our timeline over 400 years it is highly probably that they figured vinland was an island some time ago
Originally posted by Languish
According to our timeline over 400 years it is highly probably that they figured vinland was an island some time ago
Ok you guys have to remember something... Even though 'Vinland' was colonized over 400 years before, you're saying basically that the Greenlanders fled to Vinland after the mini-ice age struck. BUT that event happened relatively recently, and most of the people in Vinland then are pretty recent immigrants. In this case, contact with Europe is almost assured, as well as the Vinlanders being mostly Catholic. (the Greenlanders were devout Catholics, and probably the main reason they died was they refused to associate with the Inuit, who likely could have helped them)
This ALSO means though that for most of that 400 years, they would be a smallish colony not overly interested in exploring hostile Skraeling territory.
I dont know whats happening at the beginning of the scenario. I'd like to think that maybe in 1419, christian beliefs are present but do not represent the state religon. It would be nice to see vinland as a final norse outpost that can convert but only if the player sees fit.
In my mind this should occur as vinland is rediscovered by europe... or vice versa. I am keen to see what krunch proposes for the opening religious situation. It certainly is an interesting topic.
Worm land? You confuse me now
We got Vinland (Grass/Meadow land), Markland (Forest land) and Helluland (Stone land)
And that would be Skrælingaland and Fjörðey (that -öy part is a modern Norwegian invention
).
Originally posted by Styrbiorn
Worm land? You confuse me now
We got Vinland (Grass/Meadow land), Markland (Forest land) and Helluland (Stone land)
And that would be Skrælingaland and Fjörðey (that -öy part is a modern Norwegian invention
You Norsemen, your languages makes almost as little sense as English
And I thought Vinland was Wine Land?
The alternative is that contact with Vinland was simply lost, and that the greenlanders never bothered attempting to either settle or contact these vinlanders before finally abandoning their own settlements.
This doesnt discount christian beliefs, but it does avoid a starting catholic colony. If thats what we are really after. Personally i favour a weak norse-christian (pagan) settlement... with the option of re-affirming their christian ties later as they re-establish contact with europe.
Originally posted by Mad King James
You're really dead set on Vinland being Pagan aren't you?
I do honestly agree that christianity should be represented there, but to make the scenario slightly unique it should be (if we stick to the abandonment idea) a warped hybrid of norse, indian and christian beliefs that can only be set right by someone perhaps like Einarr øxnamegin, or when contact is re-established with Norway.
I just think we need to keep it special. At least initially.
Originally posted by Mad King James
You Norsemen, your languages makes almost as little sense as English
We do our best
That's the popular belief yes, because of some reason or another. There are two word, vín - meaning wine - and vin which means meadow/grass (not actually grass, but a grass area). Vín refers to the drink and not to the grapes, so even if it did grow grapes there it makes little sense. Vin on the other hand is a common part in place names in Scandinavia (mostly Norway) from that time and as said refers to an open grass area (exactly the nature found there). Further, Markland and Helluland was named after the nature (as was Greenland and Iceland for example) so why should Vinland be an example?
The saga (of Eirík the red IIRC) tells how they captured a couble of skrælings and learnt about the natives from them:
There's a few names there, but those appears to not be of Micmacs (I guess they are the "whoopies"
)That makes more sense I guess. This way they will only have abenaki cultured provinces...
How is this done for the other indian tribes?
I've fixed it (although - it's not DublinOriginally posted by Languish
Looks good harvard although i agree with krunch. Avoid the low countries and dublin just for "saftey" and i reckon we have it cracked.
)Of course. These are one of the dangers of making contact with the Europeans... the advantage should be promotion to a better techgroup..
I've checked with Huron and Lenape and it appears to be cities in each province of just 2000 souls per city. Would seem fine to assume those concentrations in our micmac settlements plus any "outlying" villages around to make up the numbers. 2000 per "village" (city) should cover it.
oh and... weee... page 8
Great!
Should promotion to a better tech group come at a price? Vassalage, conversion, or would mere contact be enough?
Originally posted by Havard
I've fixed it (although - it's not Dublin
Of course. These are one of the dangers of making contact with the Europeans... the advantage should be promotion to a better techgroup..
Re-subjugate? they WERE Norwegians
the only reason they left was they probably pissed someone important off back home in Norway
I was thinking of what happened to Iceland and Greenland in 1261/2, where they recognized the Norwegian king. Iceland had at this point survived more than 350 years as a mostly independant republic...Originally posted by Mad King James
Re-subjugate? they WERE Norwegians
the only reason they left was they probably pissed someone important off back home in Norway
It would make sense for Norway if they discovered the "lost" Vinland settlements to try to annex them, and I'll try outlining a few events for that..
Originally posted by Mad King James
You're really dead set on Vinland being Pagan aren't you?
I agree with languish on this.
Making them Christian, just wouldn't be as fun... Christian countries are the most numerous in the world, what fun would one more be?