What would people want out of a Middle East expansion?

[Me_]

• Alliances against common enemy: currently modifier is limited to rivals with a rather modest buff that hardly offsets religious difference. I would like to see some kind of stronger modifier between countries that are threatened or hostile towards the same country making unholy (and maybe even limited defensive) alliances more likely (looking at history France / Ottomans against Austria / Spain, or Austria/Prussia/Russia against PLC spring to mind). I don’t have a clear idea about the mechanic/modifiers, but I would like to see this happen.

Come to think of it, I'd like to see some sort of "balance of power mechanic where nations would ally in blocks of a kind.

Instead of situations like
A is allied to B, B is allied to C, A and C are bitter rivals and the moment one attacks the other the whole thing breaks apart.
more cases where
A is allied to B, B is allied to C, C is allied to A. Of course with possibility of the whole thing falling apart if two of the chain end up at war due to other relations.

 

[Korsjan Rīkis]

My take on the mission trees for the ME immersion pack:

1. Ottomans:
Their mission tree should be remade like it was done for Poland. A big mission tree that not only focus on their conquests, but also internal struggles, especially their decline in the latter part of the game and Janissaries. Their conquests missions should also be expanded and made more flavourful. Conquest of Vienna is a must, for example.
There could also be a new event that they can get Algiers (or some other small Barbary States) as a march, if they're threatened by Spain or Portugal. It should be balanced and limited of course, we don't need Morocco or Tunis becoming Ottoman marches immediately.

2. Mamluks:
I think they should have a tall focus, except for dealing with its main rivals like the Ottoman Empire and Portugal (if only the latter could actually expand in India and pose a threat), building a proper fleet and securing the Holy Cities. Trade and internal stuff should also be important.

3. Qara Qoyunlu and Aq Qoyunlu:
Both of them should share the same mission tree, except for the 1st few initial missions. Their mission tree should obviously focus on conquering each other and then expanding into Persia and Caucasus. They should be given a choice to become Persia, but it should NOT be mandatory. A month ago or so a good idea came to my mind how how to represent the almost impossible Aq Qoyunlu's conquest of Qara Qoyunlu: The conditions should be similar how Oirat occupies Northern China by an event, if the Ming emperor gets captured/killed. Something similar should happen here, if Aq Qoyunlu manages to capture/kill the Qara Qoyunlu's ruler.

4. Karaman (and other Anatolian beyliks):
They should have a mission tree of their own, although they could borrow some Ottoman missions, if necessary. It should focus on restoring the Rum Sultanate and potentially regaining the Seljuk territories. It could be a branching mission tree actually, if they want to restore the borders of the Seljuk Empire or expand into the Balkans.

5. Byzantium:
A rework of the mission tree that's just more than conquer this and that. I think that they should be able to restore the Greek culture in Anatolia (at least the coastal parts) with their mission tree, or get a big discount to do so. They should also have a unique government reforms and a chance to form the Roman Empire with Justian's borders through their mission tree.

6. Trebizond:
They could have their own small mission tree, too. At least some unique missions and some borrowed from Byzantium. It would be very nice, if they could form Pontus or at least get a chance to get renamed. Alternatively they should also have a possibility to form the Byzantine Empire and get their missions, too.

7. Georgia:
I think that Georgia should start united like it actually was in 1444, but it should have a disaster that can trigger very early in the game and that divides your realm. Something similar to Dai Viet. The mission tree should focus on avoiding or dealing with the disaster, strengthening your defence against the hostile Muslim neigbhours and eventually restoring the borders of Tamara the Great (and some extra). They could also potentially have an estate like Norway that reduces dev cost in mountainous provinces. Another thing is that Georgia has no available monuments. While there's already 2 monuments in the Balkans, they are only restricted to Coptic and Zorostrians faiths. I think there should be something for Orthodox in Georgia, too.

8. Karabakh -> Armenia:
It should be an obvious one, become independent and restore the borders of Greater Armenia, including Jerusalem.

9. Hisn Kayfa:
Their mission tree should be branching, they could either become Kurdistan and focus on Kurdish matters (this mission branch would be used by Ardalan) or restore the Ayyubid Empire and when you achieve Saladin's borders you get renamed to the Ayyubid Empire.

10. Ardabil and Persia:
I think that Ardabil, like historically, should be the main country that should focus on forming Persia. To achieve that it needs some serious buffs. maybe events that let's it easily deal with its neighbours. Since Persia has very rich history, they should be the Teutonic Order of this update, in a sense that their missions tree branches a lot. The main branches would be: Shia focus, Sunni focus and Zoroastrian focus. I should note that the focus should NOT be unlocked, when you form Persia itself, but rather early in the game, because some players (including myself) want to stay small and don't intend to form Persia in every run, but remain as, let's say, Mazanderan. It should be possible for Mazanderan, for example, to pick its focus without being forced to become Persia. The AI should always take the focus of its current religion, while the player could become Zoroastrian without doing it in a cheesy way with rebels.
Like it was already mentioned by someone else here, Persia should be given a chance to choose its new capital, when finishing a certain mission, it could keep its old capital, choose Isfahan or some other choices, maybe even restoring Persepolis as a Zoroastrian Persia? Just a though. It could also be included as a monument.

11. Timurids:
The Timurid successor states should have mission trees focusing on getting the Timurid throne, but some like Ajam and Fars, for example, should have a chance to either choose the Timurid path or Persian path. The Timurid Empire itself should have a focus on stabilising their realm and integrating their vassals and restoring their empire to its former glory.

12. Uzbek -> Bukhara:
They should have a branching mission tree, either remain as a steppe nomad or form Bukhara that expands into Persia.

13. Mushasha:
They should have a small, but unique Shia extremist mission tree.

14. Oman/Hormuz:
They should share their mission tree, except for the few initial missions. Their mission tree should be similar to Kilwa and Gujarat: focusing on dominating the Indian Ocean trade and gaining the control of the Swahili coast. I would highly recommend adding a monument in this region. The whole Arabia only has 1 monument.

15. Yemen:
Should focus on uniting the home region, securing the Holy Cities and the Aden trade route. Also focus on trade. Could share a few missions with Oman/Hormuz. I also think that Yemen is a great place to have an additional monument.

16. Arabian nations:
They should focus on uniting Arabia and probably forming the Caliphate.

17. Nubian nations:
Since there are both Coptic and Muslim countries, they should at least have branching religious missions and focus on uniting Nubia and conquering Egypt.


17 missions trees, that's quite a lot! We only got 11 new ones for the Lions of the North, so it's highly likely that all of this couldn't be covered, although not all of the mission trees should be excessive in size. Some of these could also be done in a separate update, like Cacausus, Byzantium and Trebzond. Uzbek->Bukhara, too, if the Steppes get their very needed update. And I don't think we should add something for Venice, the Balkans or the Crusader states in this update. It's already huge! I would prefer to see it making the Middle East states more distinctive and more unique to each other.

In a later post I'll also make some monument suggestions for the ME. I have already posted some before, but I'll see, if I can think of something more!

 

[Romanix90]

Also perhaps :

1. New national ideas for some formable tags like Egypt, which currently have none if i'm not mistaken, formed Arabia and Armenia.

2. New formable tags like Kush formed by Nubian minors and Nubia, Ayyubids restored by Hisn Kayfa, separate Egyptian tag in the case that Christians form Egypt like the case is with India ( Bharat and Hindustan ).

3.Unique missions for formed Timurids and Ilkhanate. Timurid minors would have some missions like it's the case today. As for Ilkhanate restoring it could make Ilkhanate to addopt major culture and religion instead of inheiriting them from the tag that restores them. So for example if Persian is dominant culture they would addopt Persian and same would be the case of religion.

Those are just some of ideas.

 

[Azkiol]

Other than the obvious mission trees and rebalancing,

1: A new unique unit. I don't really care about how it's historically justified, I just want Anbennar devs to have a bit more freedom.

2: Drilling/Professionalism rework/buff. I just feel it's an underused mechanic that can currently be boiled down to "Spend mana to get manpower."

 

[Kurfürstin Adelheid]

Alternatively they should also have a possibility to form the Byzantine Empire and get their missions, too.

Correct me if I'm wrong but can't Trebizond already reform Byzantium if it no longer exists?

 

[Korsjan Rīkis]

Correct me if I'm wrong but can't Trebizond already reform Byzantium if it no longer exists?

I think it can. I just mentioned it so that it remains as a viable option, if you don't want to form (or get renamed) Pontus.

 

[Kurfürstin Adelheid]

I think it can. I just mentioned it so that it remains as a viable option, if you don't want to form (or get renamed) Pontus.

Would Pontus be its own Tag or just a name change for Trebizond? I rather like Trebizond's flag and map colour, and I prefer their ideas to the Byzantine ones.

 

[Korsjan Rīkis]

Would Pontus be its own Tag or just a name change for Trebizond? I rather like Trebizond's flag and map colour, and I prefer their ideas to the Byzantine ones.

It would obviously be better if it was its own tag, but a name change is acceptable, I guess. If it was a new tag it should have a yellow colour like in their flag:

Spoiler

I think it's pretty cool, too.

 

[Kurfürstin Adelheid]

It would obviously be better if it was its own tag, but a name change is acceptable, I guess. If it was a new tag it should have a yellow colour like in their flag:

Is that flag not very similar to Theodoro's?

 

[Korsjan Rīkis]

Is that flag not very similar to Theodoro's?

Yes, it actually is, didn't think of that. But we can still use the colour!

 

[Kurfürstin Adelheid]

Yes, it actually is, didn't think of that. But we can still use the colour!

But...my beautiful blue-green Trebizond colour...
Still, anything to offset the awful Ottoman puke green colour.

 

[greywulfos]

Dunno how to feel about this one entirely just yet, but I really think it might be fun if the Ottomans get something that involves proselytising more of Europe into following Sunni Islam.

 

[Travis_Bickle]

I think Cyprus should be given an event chain in which they can get Catherine Cornaro on the throne and eventually become a vassal of Venice, or have the option to just stay independent.

In the game they often become a vassal of the Mamluks, which is not accurate. They paid tribute to the Mamluks for a brief period, but they were not a direct vassal. Having them come under Venetian or Genoese control would be historically accurate, but they should retain the option of staying independent.

 

[Volbound]

As a historian of Turkey (though admittedly not one with a specialty in Ottoman history) I would love to add my five cents into the discussion.

1) Persia must be re-worked/buffed as necessary to make it a formidable rival to the Ottoman AI. Otto-Habsburg rivalry most certainly defined the history of this part of the world for a while, but Otto-Persian and eventually Otto-Mughal rivalry too (yes, latter even worked with the Portuguese against Ottoman ambitions in the Indian Ocean) must counter Ottoman ambitions in the East. A strong Persia with diplomatic ties to Western powers can be a great check for the Ottoman AI whilst making the game somewhat enjoyable and interesting for players who wish to play as the most OP state in the game. This really must be the priority.

2) As a lover of smaller states, I would love to see new content for Caucasus and Arabia regions. Caucasus must be made less palatable for wannabe Empires that wish to conquer it, and Georgia as well as Armenia should receive extensive and interesting missions that are tailored for human players. So in theory, they should not become OP on their own when AI plays them, but for skilled players a path to recreating the ancient Armenian Empire or forging a mighty and tall (production based) Georgian Caucasus Empire should be possible.

3) I prefer quality over quantity and the quality of work done by Paradox in the latest DLC was just astonishing. Similarly, I think it is best to pick 5-6 states to really re-work and come up with a decent mission tree etc. for rather than making smaller and not so fun mission trees for 10-20 states. Ottomans, Ajam, Mamluks MUST receive a re-work to their missions, I would like to think that this is non-negotiable... On top of these, Georgia and Karabakh/Armenia can receive a mission tree too, that would be most interesting for a lot of players. An extra one or two mission trees if possible could be made for a selection of these few states: Byzantium (community favourite, would not be my pick), Knights/Cyprus (Gotland-like option, would be amazing), Genoa/Venice (unlikely but they too can bring flavor to the region), Crimea (my favourite option).

4) Last but certainly not least, manpower/force limit rework is needed for the Ottomans. The current system makes the state OP through sheer numbers and some modifiers, and makes a very poor case of showing Ottoman military might. It is, basically put, just any other "Eastern horde" with a flood of troops and nothing else. The reality was quite different. While the earliest Ottoman conquest were often full of Christian volunteers who wanted some cash, later campaigns in the Balkans would be fought with numerically not so superior but very well equipped and trained Janissaries. Ottoman population too was relatively small compared to some of its European rivals, almost dwarfed by the likes of France. Quality and not quantity of troops should be on the focus here. People that only know of Ottomans through EU4 would have a very wrong image of their military now, and this would be a good opportunity to fix that all the while fixing their OPness problem as well.

5) Since my BA thesis was on the Black Sea slave trade, I suppose a mechanic revolving around that and that is in connection with the Mamluks, Genoese/Venetians, and Ottoman conquest of Constantinople can be put in game too. It is hard to say what exactly, but Mamluks that have a hostile relationship with the owners of Black Sea slave ports and/or Constantinople should receive severe maluses to its slave-based society that relied on Italian merchants ferrying them from said ports. They may be required to make a land route to Caucasus themselves to get rid of these maluses. Ottoman players should have the ability to stop this trade if they wish to, and piss off the Mamluks whilst weakening them in the process. Of course, this should also put a huge dent in Ottoman economy too.

Regarding #4, I feel like it is reflected with all the moral/discipline bonuses the Ottomans get. The problem is with a game that is about spamming right now, the Ottomans also spam as well so they come off as hordish. That is just general AI programming you won't get away from.

This makes the Ottomans typically the strongest AI player (or human) in the mid-1500s as long as people don't messed with them and leave them to do their thing.

For example play England or someone far from the front and watch the Ottomans just spam without intervention. They will be the toughest AI opponent by the mid-1500s.

Reading this thread, I don't think there is a good fix for the Middle East. It isn't a bad area as it stands from a historical/game play perspective. You definitely need a threat for the Ottomans and Mamelukes just don't seem to do it. They hold Ottos at bay early but by 1500s, they are usually toast. Timurids could be a threat and they tend to work well.

My biggest issue with EU4 (which I have talked about a lot on here is colonization and how broken/unhistoric Portugal is. A historical Portugal could be more of a threat to the Ottomans, at least on the seas, and create a fun challenge for Ottoman players). I don't know how you pull that off because in order to make AI Portugal work, you would make them a little OP for a human to play. I had a plan of doing special trade colonizes for Portugal that almost instantly settle but only count for colonial range and may slight trade bust and are not full colonies, that allows Portugal to get around Africa a lot faster and become a threat in the Indian ocean. I also think programming Portugal to go that way instead of to the Caribbean or even having the treaty of Tordillas be the realistic treaty and impact Castile/Portugal in the game to push them to their respected regions would be solve these issues.

 

[Volbound]

I think Cyprus should be given an event chain in which they can get Catherine Cornaro on the throne and eventually become a vassal of Venice, or have the option to just stay independent.

In the game they often become a vassal of the Mamluks, which is not accurate. They paid tribute to the Mamluks for a brief period, but they were not a direct vassal. Having them come under Venetian or Genoese control would be historically accurate, but they should retain the option of staying independent.

Good idea.

Genoa needs to be buffed. I mean go read about 1453 or watch the Rise of Ottoman series on Netflix. Genoa was pretty bad ass at the start of the game.

In fact, Genoa and Venice could each beat entire nations like England or France at that specific time. Genoa beat Ottoman fleets 10x their size and their 1k mercenaries held off large Ottoman armies at Constantinople.

 

[Danskjävel]

Just a few more thoughts...

I'd like the ME to actually portray what I find to be very determining for the region: BOTH homogeneity and heterogeneity.
There is a certain aspect of religion and ruler class similarities, most notably in the form of (sunni) islam which is very much determined by the society it had been "created" in: it's not for nothing we have terms like "the arab world".

But even though this IS the case, having only this perspective does little justice to what is also very prevalent in the region: a rather extreme heterogeneity in the form of different peoples, tribes, religious interpretations; history and tradition. Some are influenced by the mongolian steppes, some are remnants of the old Assyrian empires, while others are Christians or pre-Islamic religions mixed with obscure islamic schools.

To adress this duality I think we need two things.

Firstly:

• (new) Diplomatic mechanics representing the vying for hegemony and homogeneity. Basically claiming the title of caliph - and the legitimacy and political agency (or lack of) in doing so.

I think this can be done by "mixing" existing mechanics into region (or religion) specific mechanics. I'm imagining expanding upon the scholars while drawing on the hegemonies but with weaker bonuses - especially military boni. Rather than boni, let's have some diplomatic interactions reminiscant of the HRE-interactions, extra dip slots, and some mechanic that DIPLOMATICALLY allows the hegemon(s) to influence surrounding nations or followers of Islam.

Ideas for hegemon "influence" over the ME/islamic world (some should probably be mutually exclusive):
- Negative (or positive) modifiers for heretics/heathens
- Skewing Dhimmi (heathens) modifiers either negatively or positively
- Send 10% yearly manpower to brothers in faith warring with either heathens or heretics
- Strengthening propagate religion impact (could also be tied with some trade range/trade steering)

And perhaps if the devs have allocated enough time to this expansion: a new form of vassal that are a non-integrateable mix between vassal and tributary. Would be great for Ottoman relation with europeans, but likely also in other cases.

And secondly:

• More cultural diversity representing... Cultural diversity.

Whether we like it or not, it is probably too late to introduce dynamic culture, pops or the like to EU4. But this can be done rather easily with existing mechanics: basically split up more culture groups, particularly the Levantine group into two or (preferably from an ethnological perspective) more groups. The easy fix without adding cultures is splitting it into two: arabian peninsula+egyptian+syrian for one "pan arabian" group and a turko-mesopotamic group with the rest. Ideally add several one or two province cultures tied to both religion and language: "nestorians", assyrians, yazidis and the list goes on.

This will obviously result in more unrest in the tags occupying the region - especially the Ottomans. Which seems historical: in the current shape I think it would be perfect, since they'd likely not have much troubles dealing with it, but it would still undo the ridiculous lack of uprising in the Ottomans. Occupy them for 20 years and give them 20 WE and they still just get particularists and peasants...

We could also strengthen the Dhimmi estate, and make them more relevant if they're also a part of the diplomatic hegemonic mechanics I suggested above, while compensation for the split of culture groups: "happy" Dhimmi could give +0.5 tolerance heathens/heretics and alternatively (or additively) -10% unrest from unaccepted cultures. Ideally it should not make up for the split, but give the player or the randomly competent AI a chance to mitigate the negative effects from smaller culture groups.

 

[oilver]

1) Omani missions.
2) More christians in Levant.

 

[vaLor-]

I would like to see Guns of Urban heavily nerfed, Ottoman government monarch skill nerfed, Ottoman rivals buffed, and the ability for mamluks to be annexed early (in line with what actually happened) via an event line, with some caveats such as high autonomy for a long time until an estate privilege such as "revoke egyptian autonomy" is taken after a few decades which increases unrest and reduces stability in return for making it a full part of the ottoman realm. Also, ottomans has among the most rudimentary of flavor (mission tree and events) of any major nations during this timeframe.

Here's what I'd love to see:

Updated Missions for Ottomans, Persia, Mamluks, Byzantium, and HIsn Kayfa
New Mission Trees for Syria, Iraq, Arabia, Armenia, Georgia, Shirvan, Egypt, Nubia/Nubian Minors,
Unit Models for Syria/Syrian Culture, Armenia/Armenian Culture, Georgia/Georgian Culture, and Unique Models for Egypt (Mamluks and Egypt should use different Unit Models)
New Music for Middle Eastern Nations and Caucuses
Tons of new DHEs for nations, cultures, and religions within the Middle East and Levant
I'd also love to see Nestorian Christianity added to the game (as a 1 or 2 province minority religion), Coptic/Khemetic Culture added (Along with the ability for them to form Egypt), and other various religious minorities (Yazidi in particular) being added. The Middle East should be a religiously diverse region as it is today.

Agree with all of these suggestions

 

[egolend]

Going to keep it to my big items
1) some content for an arabia - it is a great goal for the region.
2) something for the trade mechanics (silk road - it is the perfect region to think about carevans etc). Possiably something which makes directions of trade more than conquer the area.
3) Something (possiable a formalable/couple of events) for Zoastrian and Jewish - both had a diaspera and a great religion but get buried as they wern't dominant anywhere.
4) a few copitc flavour events for non ethoiapia - sometimes feels like if you arn't catholic at the start you are on the sidelines.
5) Shia to be a little more different to Sunni - all the Christian demoniations play differently so muslim ones being so similar feels like room for conent

 

[PurpulaPhoenixum53]

is it cultural differences, or religious differences holding vestiges of old cultures?

A bit of both. I recently did some digging on Assyrian/Aramean/Syriac culture here to see what provinces, in game, that it could inhabit (Not many, by 1444 Timur had all but slaughtered them in the major cities and driven them into the rural highlands) and I found out that linguistically Assyrian/Aramean/Syriac (whatever you call it) is very similar to Arabic. The overarching similarity for the Levantine culture group is most of them (except Turkish) shared a Semetic language. If there was to be a culture rework, I would move Turkish into the Altaic culture group and give them an accepted culture bonus in their traditions, with an event later to culturally integrate into the Arabic culture group, at which point they would transition to the Levantine culture group.

I would hope that, if lucky nations get a rework, it is to throw them in the fire never to be seen again.

Why a fire? I should be taken back to Mt. Doom and yeeted into the pit.

6. Trebizond:
They could have their own small mission tree, too. At least some unique missions and some borrowed from Byzantium. It would be very nice, if they could form Pontus or at least get a chance to get renamed. Alternatively they should also have a possibility to form the Byzantine Empire and get their missions, too.

I'd have Trebizond have two routes for a mission tree. One leads to reforming/usurping Byzantium/the imperial throne, while another leads to tall Pontus run.

2. New formable tags like Kush formed by Nubian minors and Nubia, Ayyubids restored by Hisn Kayfa, separate Egyptian tag in the case that Christians form Egypt like the case is with India ( Bharat and Hindustan ).

I'd argue that a Christian Egypt would still be called Egypt (although under a different name). The difference should lie in the national traditions, which should be less Arabized.

Would Pontus be its own Tag or just a name change for Trebizond? I rather like Trebizond's flag and map colour, and I prefer their ideas to the Byzantine ones.

Depends on how we see Trebizond. If we see Trebizond as pre-modern Pontic state, then just a name change; but if we see at as a medieval Greek state then it would be entirely different tag.

It would obviously be better if it was its own tag, but a name change is acceptable, I guess. If it was a new tag it should have a yellow colour like in their flag:

Spoiler

View attachment 928307

I think it's pretty cool, too.

Actually, PDX could do their own flag. While this is the flag from 1919 Pontic committee to the Versailles and Sevres treaties, the idea of the flag is the Pontic eagle with sometype of colored background. That being said, this flag is the currently recognized flag of the Pontic community.