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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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Yes, it's something you can do.
If PU's are going to play a big part in international relations and in gameplay, would it be possible for PC to have a UI element that shows all the leaders who are unmarried and heirless or only have daughters (kind of like EU4 but a bit more complexe)
 
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Population numbers for Europe

Europe total Population

  • 1000: 35M.; 1350: 80M. of which France 15-19M., 14M. German-speaking, Italy 8-10M., England 5M. Iberia (Portugal, Spain) 9M., Scandinavia over 2M. (1.5M. Denmark, 0.5M. Sweden, 0.5M. Norway), Hungarian- and Slavic-speaking Europe 5M. (Jordan, 2002, pp. 1–3)
  • 1300: 93.7M. (with Russia), 78.7M. (without Russia) (Malanima, 2009, p. 9);
  • 1300: 80M. (Wiesner-Hanks, 2013, p. 204)
  • 1450: <60M. (Fulbrook, 2019, pp. 26–27);
  • 1500: 61.1M.; 1550: 70.2M.; 1600: 78.0M.; 1650: 74.6M. (Barzun & Weinstein, 2024).

Holy Roman Empire

  • 1200: 8M.; 1300: 12M.; 1500: 16M. (Fulbrook, 2019, p. 26);
  • 1250: 10-12M.; 1300: 12M.; 1300-1500: 12-13M.; 1600: 15M.; 1650: 10M. (Holmsten, 1991, p. 46)
HRE-pop-statista.png

(source)

City sizes

  • Medieval ages: more than 400 cities with at least 20,000 inhabitants (Köln, Lübeck, Magdeburg, Nürnberg, Metz, Straßburg, Augsburg, Prag, Wien, later Danzig); 16 cities had more than 10,000 inhabitants; 50 had 2,000-10,000 inhabitants (Hofrichter, 1995, p. 50)
  • Late 17th century: over 100,000: Amsterdam, Lisbon, Rome, Seville; Paris 180,000; Naples 240,000; London 250,000 (Qazi, 2013, p. 148)
  • 18th century: over 100,000 (in addition to previously listed): Berlin, Copenhagen, Moscow, St. Petersburg, Palermo, Vienna, Warsaw (Qazi, 2013, p. 148)
  • Danzig: 1300: 2,000-10,000; 1400: 20,000 (Hepburn, 2004, p. 35)
  • Florence: 1300: 90,000 (Qazi, 2013, p. 148)
  • Genoa: 1250: 50,000 (Scott, 2012, p. 265)
  • London: 1530: 50,000; 1600: 225,000 (Morris, 1994, p. 158); 1650: 350,000; 1750: 700,000 (Martinelli & Cavalli, 2020, p. 128)
  • Venice: 1300: 190,000 (Qazi, 2013, p. 148)

Kingdom of Bohemia

  • 1050: 450,000 (Boh.), 230,000 Mor.; 1200: 1,36M. (Boh. + Mor.) (Berend et al., 2013, p. 251)
  • 1300: 2M.; 1600: 2.5M. (Brzechczyn, 2009, p. 234)

Mark Brandenburg

  • 1300: 200,000 (BLPB, 2022; Wikipedia, 2024b)
  • 1486: 308,750; 1564: 381,000; 1617: 418,666; 1634: 300,000; 1690: 413,516; 1750: 767,354; 1800: 1,124,806 (all figures only Mark Brandenburg) (Wikipedia, 2024b)
  • 1650: 1,65M. (Brandenburg-Prussia) (Whaley, 2012, p. 188)
  • 1700: 500,000; 1740: 731,000 (only Mark Brandenburg) (Holmsten, 1991, p. 79)
Population ratio per province in 1750: Altmark 10%, Prignitz 9%, Mittelmark 43%, Uckermark 9%, Neumark 29% (Wikipedia, 2024b)
Oberbarnim: 1618: 13,000; 1631: 9,000 (Clark, 2007)
Berlin-Cölln: 1337: 4-5,000 (Wikipedia, 2024a); 1450: 6,000 (Helbig, 1973, p. 30); 1448: 12,000 (Morris, 1994, p. 231); 1300: 8,000; 1800: 170,000; 1815: 200,000; 1845: 400,000; 1871: 800,000 (Stöver, 2013)
  • During 14th century, Berlin-Cölln practically the status of a free imperial city which protected Brandenburg against neighbors (Morris, 1994, p. 231)
Frankfurt (Oder): 1740: 10,000 (Holmsten, 1991, p. 79)
Brandenburg an der Havel: 1740: 10,000 (Holmsten, 1991, p. 79)

Kingdom of France

1700: 20M. (Whaley, 2012, p. 188)

Habsburg monarchy

1650: 8.1M. (Whaley, 2012, p. 188)

Kingdom of Hungary

  • 1200: 1.1 – 2.2M. (Berend et al., 2013, p. 251)
  • 1500: 3.3M.; hereditary provinces: 1.815M.; Bohemian lands: 2.3M.; 1600: 1.8M.; hereditary provinces: 2.39M.; Bohemian lands: 2.95M. (Evans & Wilson, 2012, p. 263)
  • 1500: 4M. (Brzechczyn, 2009, p. 234)

Kingdom of Poland

1300: 1.8M.; 1500: 4M. (Brzechczyn, 2009, p. 234)

India and China
1300: China 96M.; India 100M. (Malanima, 2009, p. 10)

Reference

Barzun, J., & Weinstein, D. (2024, July 26). History of Europe: Migration, population, ethnicity. Britannica. https://www.britannica.com/topic/history-of-Europe/Demographics
Berend, N., Urbańczyk, P., & Wiszewski, P. (2013). Central Europe in the high Middle Ages: Bohemia, Hungary and Poland c. 900 – c. 1300. Cambridge University Press.
Brandenburgische Landeszentrale für politische Bildung [BLPB]. (2022, November). Die Entstehung der Mark. Brandenburgische Landeszentrale für politische Bildung. https://www.politische-bildung-brandenburg.de/themen/die-entstehung-der-mark
Brzechczyn, K. (Ed.). (2009). Idealization XIII: Modeling in history. Rodopi.
Clark, C. M. (2007). Iron Kingdom: The Rise and Downfall of Prussia, 1600–1947. Penguin Books.
Evans, R. J. W., & Wilson, P. H. (Eds.). (2012). The Holy Roman Empire, 1495–1806: A European perspective. Brill.
Fulbrook, M. (2019). A concise history of Germany (3rd ed.). Cambridge University Press.
Helbig, H. (1973). Gesellschaft und Wirtschaft der Mark Brandenburg im Mittelalter. De Gruyter.
Hepburn, A. C. (2004). Contested cities in the modern west. Palgrave Macmillan.
Hofrichter, H. (Ed.). (1995). Stadtbaugeschichte von der Antike bis zur Neuzeit (3rd ed.). Vieweg.
Holmsten, G. (1991). Brandenburg: Geschichte des Landes, seiner Städte und Regenten (2nd ed.). arani.
Jordan, W. C. (2002). Europe in the High Middle Ages (D. Cannadine, Ed.). Penguin Books.
Malanima, P. (2009). Pre-modern European economy: One thousand years (10th–19th centuries). Brill.
Martinelli, A., & Cavalli, A. (2020). European society. Brill.
Morris, A. E. J. (1994). History of urban form: Before the industrial revolutions (3rd ed.). Routledge.
Qazi, S. A. (2013). Population geography. APH Pub. Corp.
Scott, T. (2012). The city-state in Europe, 1000–1600: Hinterland, territory, region. Oxford University Press.
Stöver, B. (2013). Berlin: A short history (D. Stonecipher, Trans.). Beck.
Whaley, J. (2012). Germany and the Holy Roman Empire. II: From the peace of Westphalia to the dissolution of the Reich: 1648–1806 (1st ed.). Oxford University Press.
Wiesner-Hanks, M. E. (2013). Early Modern Europe, 1450–1789 (2nd ed.). Cambridge University Press. https://doi.org/10.1017/CBO9781139381192
Wikipedia. (2024a). Einwohnerentwicklung von Berlin. In Wikipedia. https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Einwohnerentwicklung_von_Berlin&oldid=246774508
Wikipedia. (2024b). Mark Brandenburg. In Wikipedia. https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mark_Brandenburg&oldid=247167041
 
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About the culture map mode
I think it is based on more modern cultural distinctions. I disagree on creating Angrian and splitting Markish and Brandenburgish cultures
View attachment 1169785
I found this map as the only place where they are depicted

But there are also a lot of more modern research showing there are no such distinctions yet
View attachment 1169786View attachment 1169787


A great book I found about the Low German at that time is Mittelniederdeutsche Grammatik by Lasch (1914).

He divided the Middle Low German language (during Hanseatic period) into groups:

Westphalian
North Low Saxon (With subgroups of East Frisian, Nordalbingian from river Weser to Holstein, East Elbian from Lübeck to Pomerania. Later two are highly connected)
Eastphalian
Brandenburgish

I think there is no need to subdivide North Low Saxon so much, and it will be an interesting gameplay feature if there is one big North Low Saxon on the beaches of HRE
That the top map seems flawed from modern understandings.
The dialect in Groningen and East Frisia are effectively the same dialect and incredibly similar, low saxon with a Frisian substrate. While both are odd ducks compared to Westphalian and a bit more similar to Oldenburgish, yet that map puts them in different categories.

Modern dialects are also usually distinguishing between east low German and low saxon which that map also seems to not do, by putting mecklenburgish with north low saxon.
 
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That the top map seems flawed from modern understandings.
The dialect in Groningen and East Frisia are effectively the same dialect and incredibly similar, low saxon with a Frisian substrate. While both are odd ducks compared to Westphalian and a bit more similar to Oldenburgish, yet that map puts them in different categories.

Modern dialects are also usually distinguishing between east low German and low saxon which that map also seems to not do, by putting mecklenburgish with north low saxon.
Yeah, the top map is strange, and it is the only source I found which includes the Angrian language and the Markish-Brandenburgish split. And it is the only source I have found

but there is the case for a united Low Saxon with Mecklenburgisch and North Low Saxon as this distinction became more apparent in modern times: "While the Eastern dialects are today clearly distinguished from the West by their uniform present plural verb ending in -en (against Western uniform -(e)t), in MLG times, both endings competed against each other in West and East."
 
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Population numbers for Europe

Europe total Population

  • 1000: 35M.; 1350: 80M.; of which France 15-19M., 14M. German-speaking; Italy 8-10M.; England 5M. Iberia (Portugal, Spain) 9M.; Scandinavia 2M. (1.5M. Denmark, 0.5M. Sweden, 0.5M. Norway); Hungarian- and Slavic-speaking Europe 5M. (Jordan, 2002, pp. 1–3)
  • 1300: 93.7M. (with Russia), 78.7M. (without Russia) (Malanima, 2009, p. 9);
  • 1300: 80M. (Wiesner-Hanks, 2013, p. 204)
  • 1450: <60M. (Fulbrook, 2019, pp. 26–27);
  • 1500: 61.1M.; 1550: 70.2M.; 1600: 78.0M.; 1650: 74.6M. (Barzun & Weinstein, 2024).

Holy Roman Empire

  • 1200: 8M.; 1300: 12M.; 1500: 16M. (Fulbrook, 2019, p. 26);
  • 1250: 10-12M.; 1300: 12M.; 1300-1500: 12-13M.; 1600: 15M.; 1650: 10M. (Holmsten, 1991, p. 46)

City sizes

  • Medieval ages: more than 400 cities with at least 20,000 inhabitants (Köln, Lübeck, Magdeburg, Nürnberg, Metz, Straßburg, Augsburg, Prag, Wien, later Danzig); 16 cities had more than 10,000 inhabitants; 50 had 2,000-10,000 inhabitants (Hofrichter, 1995, p. 50)
  • Late 17th century: <100,000: Amsterdam, Lisbon, Rome, Seville; Paris 180,000; Naples 240,000; London 250,000 (Qazi, 2013, p. 148)
  • 18th century: <100,000 (in addition): Berlin, Copenhagen, Moscow, St. Petersburg, Palermo, Vienna, Warsaw (Qazi, 2013, p. 148)
  • Danzig: 1300: 2,000-10,000; 1400: 20,000 (Hepburn, 2004, p. 35)
  • Florence: 1300: 90,000 (Qazi, 2013, p. 148)
  • Genoa: 1250: 50,000 (Scott, 2012, p. 265)
  • London: 1530: 50,000; 1600: 225,000 (Morris, 1994, p. 158); 1650: 350,000; 1750: 700,000 (Martinelli & Cavalli, 2020, p. 128)
  • Venice: 1300: 190,000 (Qazi, 2013, p. 148)

Kingdom of Bohemia

  • 1050: 450,000 (Boh.), 230,000 Mor.; 1200: 1,36M. (Boh. + Mor.) (Berend et al., 2013, p. 251)
  • 1300: 2M.; 1600: 2.5M. (Brzechczyn, 2009, p. 234)

Mark Brandenburg

  • 1300: 200,000 (BLPB, 2022; Wikipedia, 2024);
  • 1650: 1,65M. (Brandenburg-Prussia) (Whaley, 2012, p. 188)
  • 1700: 500,000; 1740: 731,000 (only Mark Brandenburg) (Holmsten, 1991, p. 79)
Population ratio per province in 1750: Altmark 10%, Prignitz 9%, Mittelmark 43%, Uckermark 9%, Neumark 29% (Wikipedia, 2024)
Oberbarnim: 1618: 13,000; 1631: 9,000 (Clark, 2007)
Berlin-Cölln: 1337: 4-5,000 inhabitants (Wikipedia, 2024); 1450: 6,000 (Helbig, 1973, p. 30); 1448: 12,000 (Morris, 1994, p. 231); 1300: 8,000; 1800: 170,000: 1815: 200,000; 1845: 400,000; 1871: 800,000 (Stöver et al., 2013)
  • During 14th century, Berlin-Cölln practically the status of a free imperial city which protected Brandenburg against neighbors (Morris, 1994, p. 231)
Frankfurt (Oder): 1740: 10,000 inhabitants (Holmsten, 1991, p. 79)
Brandenburg an der Havel: 1740: 10,000 inhabitants (Holmsten, 1991, p. 79)

Kingdom of France

1700: 20M. (Whaley, 2012, p. 188)

Habsburg monarchy

1650: 8.1M. (Whaley, 2012, p. 188)

Kingdom of Hungary

  • 1200: 1.1 – 2.2M. (Berend et al., 2013, p. 251)
  • 1500: 3.3M.; hereditary provinces: 1.815M.; Bohemian lands: 2.3M.; 1600: 1.8M.; hereditary provinces: 2.39M.; Bohemian lands: 2.95M. (Evans & Wilson, 2012, p. 263)
  • 1500: 4M. (Brzechczyn, 2009, p. 234)

Kingdom of Poland

1300: 1.8M.; 1500: 4M. (Brzechczyn, 2009, p. 234)

India and China
1300: China 96M.; India 100M. (Malanima, 2009, p. 10)

Reference

Barzun, J., & Weinstein, D. (2024, July 26). History of Europe: Migration, population, ethnicity. Britannica. https://www.britannica.com/topic/history-of-Europe/Demographics
Berend, N., Urbańczyk, P., & Wiszewski, P. (2013). Central Europe in the high Middle Ages: Bohemia, Hungary and Poland c. 900 – c. 1300. Cambridge University Press.
Brandenburgische Landeszentrale für politische Bildung. (2022, November). Die Entstehung der Mark. Brandenburgische Landeszentrale für politische Bildung. https://www.politische-bildung-brandenburg.de/themen/die-entstehung-der-mark
Brzechczyn, K. (Ed.). (2009). Idealization XIII: Modeling in history. Rodopi.
Clark, C. M. (2007). Iron Kingdom: The Rise and Downfall of Prussia, 1600–1947. Penguin Books.
Evans, R. J. W., & Wilson, P. H. (Eds.). (2012). The Holy Roman Empire, 1495–1806: A European perspective. Brill.
Fulbrook, M. (2019). A concise history of Germany (3rd ed.). Cambridge University Press.
Helbig, H. (1973). Gesellschaft und Wirtschaft der Mark Brandenburg im Mittelalter. De Gruyter.
Hepburn, A. C. (2004). Contested cities in the modern west. Palgrave Macmillan.
Hofrichter, H. (Ed.). (1995). Stadtbaugeschichte von der Antike bis zur Neuzeit (3rd ed.). Vieweg.
Holmsten, G. (1991). Brandenburg: Geschichte des Landes, seiner Städte und Regenten (2nd ed.). arani.
Jordan, W. C. (2002). Europe in the High Middle Ages (D. Cannadine, Ed.). Penguin Books.
Malanima, P. (2009). Pre-modern European economy: One thousand years (10th–19th centuries). Brill.
Martinelli, A., & Cavalli, A. (2020). European society. Brill.
Morris, A. E. J. (1994). History of urban form: Before the industrial revolutions (3rd ed.). Routledge.
Qazi, S. A. (2013). Population geography. APH Pub. Corp.
Scott, T. (2012). The city-state in Europe, 1000–1600: Hinterland, territory, region. Oxford University Press.
Stöver, B., Stonecipher, D., & Stöver, B. (2013). Berlin: A short history. Beck.
Whaley, J. (2012). Germany and the Holy Roman Empire. II: From the peace of Westphalia to the dissolution of the Reich: 1648–1806 (1st ed.). Oxford University Press.
Wiesner-Hanks, M. E. (2013). Early Modern Europe, 1450–1789 (2nd ed.). Cambridge University Press. https://doi.org/10.1017/CBO9781139381192
Wikipedia. (2024). Einwohnerentwicklung von Berlin. In Wikipedia. https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Einwohnerentwicklung_von_Berlin&oldid=246774508
You can also add, Republic of Slovenia 460,000 to 600,000 (Mediana 518.000) inhabitants in 1300. (Retrograde construction of the image of the population movement in Slovenia before the 18th century, G. Makarovič, 2003)
 
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Thanks for another impressive map!

I am on holidays so commenting quickly and sticking to what I know in Switzerland:
- Saanen should be a vassal of Savoy, they had large autonomy and would switch allegiance to Bern not too long after the start date.
- Consider adding a Morges location by splitting the Yverdon location. Yverdon had largely lost it strategic value in the middle ages, while Morges has some relevance as a seasonal residence of the court of Savoy.
- Rename the location of Montreux to either Chillon or Aigle. Preferably Aigle, since the location boundaries resemble the boundaries of the contemporary Aigle District. The castle Chillon guards entry onto the lake at this area, while the castle in Aigle guards the road from Valais to the lake.
- Trade goods: More wine at the north shore of lake Geneva! The Lavaux vineyard terraces are UNESCO-listed vineyards close to Lausanne. Also the area around Aigle is know for its wine production, and for this reason the castle of Aigle houses a wine museum nowadays. In addition, I would also change Nyon to wine.
- In the location of Martigny, the trade good should switch to salt by event later in the game, to represent the 'white gold' (salt) mines in Bex opening up
- Neuchâtel should be Arpitan cultured
- Is it possible to represent more lakes of Switzerland? I am thinking for example Thunersee, Brienzersee, Vierwaldstättersee and Zürichsee could be added. Also, adding the Untersee of Lake Constance would make the Konstanz location look more like Konstanz.
- Could we have a Appenzell location, fully surrounded by the St. Gallen location?
- Remove Basel and Solothurn from the Romandy area
 
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i think greek must be accepted culture of naples. because greeks formed that city and country with migration
1722345762476.png


Ok, let me be clear: I disagree with you because it is a German Tinto Talk and not an Italian one. You disagree with me because of the revenge. We are not the same

Please post your suggestions in the correct thread so it won't be lost
 
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Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
View attachment 1167612
I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zelland, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
View attachment 1167613
The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
View attachment 1167615
We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
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Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
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Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
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Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
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Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
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Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
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Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
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Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
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The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
View attachment 1167633
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
Hello, as a Czech i have two small language fixes for your province names. The suffix -sko is used to reffer to a region around a settlement (Boleslav=Boleslavsko, Žatec-Žatecko). However two of the provinces are not named after any city and are just a region name. Posázavsko is therefore called Posázaví as it's named from the Sázava river and not a settlement. Other regions around rivers use the same logic such a Polabí, Podyjí, Povltaví (rivers Labe, Dyje, Vltava)
Similar story with Jihočesko which means South Bohemia. While the modern day state is called Jihočeský Kraj, turning it into a noun from an adjective sounds wrong and it should just be named Jižní Čechy which is litteraly South Bohemia. While the correct grammar today is with non-capital j (jižní Čechy) due to it being just a specification of where in Čechy (Bohemia) you are, if you wan't to turn it into a region name both letters should be capital. That is just for clarification why you might find the non-capital j in modern articles about the place.
As a Czech i would be very glad to see the game set in a period where our country shined and would like to thank you if you resolve this issue. Czech is one of the most difficult languages for non slavic speakers and it's therefore very common to see things like this happen even in final and finished products.
Another small nit pick would be changing Těšín to Těšínsko in the province name as it is used to reffer to the region around Těšín, but Těšín is grammatically completely correct so either way it will be fine.
TLDR: turn Posázavsko into Posázaví and Jihočesko into Jižní Čechy please.

I tried including two czech wikipedia articles about the regions but it will not let me post links so just google Posázaví and Jižní Čechy. The only thing that came up with Jihočesko was a table top game and Posázavsko will only show you a Posázavská Stezka which is an adjective and is fine gramatically.
 
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We made John of Luxembourg French as he basically was raised in the court of Paris, and considered himself more of a French knight than a Luxembourgish or 'German', in general terms. A good example of this is his support of Philip VI of France after the Hundred Years' War started, and his infamous participation and death at the Battle of Crécy. His son Charles doesn't share this culture, though.
How is his sight portrayed, in other words do you have a blind trait to represent the fact that he was well... blind? I hope it's represented and also the trait should make people horrible commanders and reduce their skills generally. Characters should also be able to become blind through injury during combat or events, as it was pretty common with John himself being blinded in battle.
 
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Thanks for another impressive map!

I am on holidays so commenting quickly and sticking to what I know in Switzerland:
- Saanen should be a vassal of Savoy, they had large autonomy and would switch allegiance to Bern not too long after the start date.
- Consider adding a Morges location by splitting the Yverdon location. Yverdon had largely lost it strategic value in the middle ages, while Morges has some relevance as a seasonal residence of the court of Savoy.
- Rename the location of Montreux to either Chillon or Aigle. Preferably Aigle, since the location boundaries resemble the boundaries of the contemporary Aigle District. The castle Chillon guards entry onto the lake at this area, while the castle in Aigle guards the road from Valais to the lake.
- Trade goods: More wine at the north shore of lake Geneva! The Lavaux vineyard terraces are UNESCO-listed vineyards close to Lausanne. Also the area around Aigle is know for its wine production, and for this reason the castle of Aigle houses a wine museum nowadays. In addition, I would also change Nyon to wine.
- In the location of Martigny, the trade good should switch to salt by event later in the game, to represent the 'white gold' (salt) mines in Bex opening up
- Neuchâtel should be Arpitan cultured
- Is it possible to represent more lakes of Switzerland? I am thinking for example Thunersee, Brienzersee, Vierwaldstättersee and Zürichsee could be added. Also, adding the Untersee of Lake Constance would make the Konstanz location look more like Konstanz.
- Could we have a Appenzell location, fully surrounded by the St. Gallen location?
- Remove Basel and Solothurn from the Romandy area
on your comment to remove Basel and Solothurn from the Romandy area:
what do you think about the areas of (modern) Switzerland in general, but especially the Romandy?
I'm quite unhappy with Western and Eastern Switzerland as areas, as they seem anachronistic to me. My earlier suggestion was to have the "Acht Orte" as the area "Switzerland", and Grisons, Thurgau and Vorarlberg in the East as the area "Currezia". However I know little about western Switzerland, and whether "Romandy" is a modern term as well. Perhaps Solothurn and Basel would be better counted as part of the swabian areas to the north?
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I kind of doubt adding more locations to central hessia is going to happen as the location density is already pretty high but concerning the Friedberg province there are a few alternative options as well.
Especially as there are already the two imperial cities of Wetzlar and Frankfurt in the region and Friedberg was pretty small and insignificant in the 14th century and especially later when compared to those two.
Alternative Names for a location to the south of the current Gießen location would be Lich, Butzbach or Homburg.
Homburg becoming relevant later in the period as a capital of one of the Hessian Landgraviates
Münzenberg would also be an option but by the 1337 it was already pretty irrelevant except for the title
all these would be owned by the Lords of Falkenstein at the Start
Obviously, the County of Falkenstein is also an option, but I went with Friedberg as it still was the biggest settlement in th area and was an important cloth producer in the 14th century. Granted, it declined and go sidelined by Frankfurt, but it was still bigger than the Falkensteiner Lich or Butzbach.

Homburg wasn't owned by the Counts of Falkenstein, though.
 
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Awesome, thanks for this! :)

I have just some smaller improvement-suggestions:
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Blue: Location "Gmünd" is even nowadays still rather "Forest" than "Woods".
Red1: This area should rather be "Woods" than "Forest", because its deforestation already started in the 9th century and nowadays it would be farmlands, but anyway I have checked it and I dont find any references online that would argument that this area was in the 14th century still forest but probably rather "Woods". It would also make sense that there are "Woods"-Locations between the "Forest" of the Alpes" + Forest of the "Bohemian Mass" and the "Grasslands" in the East.
Red 2 & 3: Should also be rather "Woods" than "Forest". In this cases i am not that confident as in Red1 but it would make sense to make at least Red2 to "Woods" and maybe even Red3 but this whole Location is a mix of "Woods"&"Forest" so both could be argued.
 
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After reading a bit of these comments i wanted to (very biased) ask
1. wouldn't it make sense to split of east frisia from the frisian freedom? it was not part of the HRE and had pretty much its own stuff going at that point in time.
2. also can there be a störtebecker event?

i also am still upset that east frisia didn't even get the dutch mission tree in eu4 lol
 
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After reading a bit of these comments i wanted to (very biased) ask
1. wouldn't it make sense to split of east frisia from the frisian freedom? it was not part of the HRE and had pretty much its own stuff going at that point in time.
2. also can there be a störtebecker event?

i also am still upset that east frisia didn't even get the dutch mission tree in eu4 lol
East Frisia had not seperated from the rest of friesland yet. And they mostly operated under the same logic.

The only reason why things changed was because of the Great Frisian War which would not happen till 1413.
 
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Does someone know what the Brückenau tag represents? Are those some unruly rebels that fight against Fulda?
So I had a look at the dynasties map, and Brückenau seems to be ruled by "von Brückenau". No such noble family likely existed, so is Brückenau a city vassal of Fulda?
 
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