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Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
Countries.jpg

The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
Locations.jpg

Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topograhpy.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
Religion.jpg

The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.jpg

This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
Pops.jpg


And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
 
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replace Esgueira with Aveiro, much bigger and more important
btw check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esgueira

"With the elevation of Aveiro to city, the lands were converted into crown lands, after the Dukes implicated in the attempted assassination of Joseph I of Portugal were executed: the privileges of the Dukes were removed, and transferred by 6 November 1836 decree, extinguishing the municipality and annexxing Esgueira (as a simple parish) to the municipality of Aveiro."

It feels weird not to have Aveiro there but indeed Esgueira was more important at the time.
 
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I love microstates as much as anyone, but this is simply wrong. Couto Mixto had an area of ~20km2 and a population that I doubt ever crossed more than a few hundred in some poor villages.

The German nations in cover locations more than ten times the size (often due to consolidation of a few of them, to be fair) and centered on towns and castles, with populations clearly in the thousands or tens of thousands.

You'll have to wait for mods for this one:)
Some of the represented German micro-states seem to had been even smaller (not sure but would not be weird). At the end in several cases we are speaking of fiefdoms with a degree of independence-interdependence. That's the main reason why I think Couto Misto could be a good adition, follow the same logic and it gives some extra flavour to the Península.
 
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I’m really curious what uses mercury will have as a resource for the time period of this game. I only know about it being used for thermometers and other modern science things. Were there enough historical uses of it for it to have its own spot as a raw resource?
It actually was very important as input for other mines. The process to separate silver/copper from other ores required mercury (and/or maybe lead) so having access to some mercury was critical to operate copper mines (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigerung). Thus, controlling Almaden/Idrijia was key to enforce the Fugger monopoly in other metals.
 
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It actually was very important as input for other mines. The process to separate silver/copper from other ores required mercury (and/or maybe lead) so having access to some mercury was critical to operate copper mines (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigerung). Thus, controlling Almaden/Idrijia was key to enforce the Fugger monopoly in other metals.
Sure, but raw material production doesn't require any input goods in the game.
Mercury was used for gold, separating silver and copper was something different, lead is used for that.
Fun fact: Schwaz in Tirol has rich mines that produce ore with silver and copper, which they were only able to separate after this process was invented by using ore from a nearby mine which contains silver and lead. If you mix them all together, you can separate the copper from the silver+lead mixture first and then separate the lead from the silver.
 
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My notes regarding Aragón:

Regarding locations
  • Ejea de los Caballeros would be better named "Cinco Villas". It is the name of the shire itself, and whilst Ejea is the main city nowadayw, it was not always the case. Until modern times Sos or Uncastillo were also highly relevant.
  • The Barbastro/Ainsa/Fraga area split is a bit weird. Barbastro should not go so much into the north, since you enter a different terrain. For example, in https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Sobrecollidas_d'o_Reino_d'Aragón.svg you can see medieval Aragon tax district and in https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Comarcas_de_Aragón#/media/Archivo:Comarcas_de_Aragón.png the modern shire division. Aínsa should extend more to the East, until Benabarre and Barbastro should in change take the northern part of Fraga. Othewise it does not fit the valleys and historical connection between the areas. Note even today the N-260 goes East-West instead of North-south
  • Tarazona would be better be split between Tarazona and Borja. I may be biased here, but for me it makes a lot of sense: you can't otherwise properly represent historical events like the War of the Two Peters in which Castille ocuppied Tarazona but not Borja. Also, the valleys there are north-South, so Tarazona should cover the Queiles River, with Borja covering the Huecha River.
The rest is quite ok and I congratulate you on following Daroca's Community historical borders rather than modern division. I had however expected a bit more granularity

Religion
  • The sunni minority in Ejea is quite surprising. While I know a few references to muslim exaricos in the XII century, it seems to be a clear minority there with Ejea, El Frago, Castiliscar etc being mainly repopulated by Christians.
  • The opposite happens around Belchite. The area of current Belchite/Calanda/Híjar was way more populated during muslim times and got heavily hit by the morisco expulsion in the XVII century, with whole villages being abandonded because their entire population was expelled. The muslim patch should go into Alcañiz (which is lots of time mentioned as a Christian foundation in older textbooks, althought it has been refuted in modern scholarship.
  • Maybe we can get a muslim minority in Barbastro to cover Naval? The local muslim population was highly important economically (in ceramics and saltworks).
Economic:
  • Iron in Jaca is wrong and unnecesary. There were some iron mines aroung southern Ribagorza (where wool is indicated). If you exchange wool and iron between Benabarre and Jaca you have the same gameplay but quite more historically realism (wool was a heavy economic activity in Jacetania for centuries).
  • I guess lumber in Sariñena want to represent the Monegros, but there is a lot or urban legends regarding that. Lumber was produced actually more to the north (Ainsa for example) and shipped down in nabatas using the river Gallego. If you exchange trade goods between Ainsa and Sariñena you also improve realism regarding lumber.
  • Doing the last swap would put coal in Sariñena. Which may have sense in game play but not geologically. There were however mines of coal in Mequinenza (under Fraga location in the map). So I would suggest having lumber in Ainsa, Dyes in Sariñena and Coal in Fraga (even though Dyes were not local in Aragon, as far as I know).
  • Wine in Belchite is again weird. The vineyards are in Cariñena, which was part of the Comunidad de Aldeas de Daroca. Belchite is in turn, more of a cereal area. It will be better to swap those two.
  • Spice in Zaragoza is a even more weird... Was it meant to represent regaliz? Zaragoza was known for its orchards so fruits may be more realistic. (I feel we lack a vegetables resource to model orchards). It may still be necesary for gameplay purposes to boost a bit Zaragoza.
  • I would put wine in Barbastro (it is still a vineryard area) and remove wine from Tudela (which is another orchard area that could be given fruits or the more orchard resource)
  • Zuera having lumber is unusuall since it is a more agricultural land. I would however prefer salt to represent Remolinos salt mines that were a major economic element for a couple of millenia.
I want to go to other parts of Spain after I have a coffee.
Appropriate name I must say.

Don’t know if I got sniped but Lemurges are vegetables in game. It’s French naming I think.
 
I might be wrong, but I'm fairly sure Zaragoza should be named Çaragoça then, since that was the name that was used arounf that time
We all go through phases in life...
 
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Some of the represented German micro-states seem to had been even smaller. At the end in several cases we are speaking of fiefdoms with a degree of independence-interdependence. That's the main reason why I think Couto Misto could be a good adition, follow the same logic and it gives some extra flavour to the Península.
1715963944313.png
 
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Excellent. I'm going trought the raw materials in Portugal and I would say maybe Salt in Aveiro?
This, and maybe Tavira also, as both places have a long history of salt production. Funny enough, both are kinda similar, as they are located near salt water marches.
 
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Hi @Pavía, my personal suggestion is adding Zalamea la Real (Çalamea) here, so
Zalamea would produce copper (Riotinto mines)
Almonaster would better produce livestock
 

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Portugal is missing copper mines.
I find Iron to be strange as its one of the minerals not found in Portugal in large quantities.

Edit: unfortunately this is not my area of expertise. I will do some reading.
 
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So now we have two navigable rivers confirmed. The Guadalquivir to Sevilla and the Elbe to Hamburg. Iirc, Johan stated he didn't want large ships on rivers as the reason rivers were not to be navigable in PC. However, it seems some ports make for an exception.

Can you clarify what criteria these inlet rivers are made into the game?
Is there enough of them in the game to warrant their own sea terrain type?
Will these rivers act differently than non-navigable rivers for the purposes of market access and/or control?
Will these rivers have any crossings, or will we simply have to go around since they are so short?

Thanks
 
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Thank you very much Pavia for this incredible map, my heart is filled with the details and love you had given to spain and even more to my beloved Andalucia. All the things im pointing out in this post is about Andalucia and more focused on Cadiz, Huelva and Sevilla which are parts I lived (and still do) many years. Most of this information is from different cultural activities we did back in school (I live in Cadiz) and had tons of cultural tours around the whole province.

I must say you all did a great work with the naming of many Cadiz's Settlement "de la frontera" type but seems that you missed Moron is also named Moron de la Frontera since 1240 after being conquest by Fernando III.

Cadiz is good also but I feel that we could use Vejer de la frontera and Tarifa in the southeast and southern part of Cádiz, both were important places during the type, the first being a beautifull city but even better choke point due to his heigh being almost 200m over the sourrounding territories carved by Barbate river, definetely a interesting place.

Tarifa is also a very important city being the suthernmost part of Iberian peninsula and also the connection between Europe and Africa. Tarifa is also a very defensive spot with many cliffs and fortification along their coastline which was used as first line of defense agains piracy later on.

So maybe break Cadiz into 3 chunks and Algecira into 2? Like this:

Terrenos.png


About the provinces it really pissed me off. I know you based the differences in the Sevilla, Jaen and Cordoba Kingdoms but since you also added Malaga and Almeria you really are sticking our eyes not adding Cadiz and calling Huelva West Sevilla!!!! The actual provinces takes his names and form from the 1833 Provincial Division of Javier de Burgos. Please guys don't let Cadiz be part of Seville. From Sanlucar and Arcos to Algeciras should be named as Cadiz. Like this:
Provincias.png


About the terrain you might check the Grassland and Sparce part. The whole terrain is also very hilly, not really flatland. Jerez has good hills, most are farmlands for wine and eroded but is very noticiable in the horizon (You can't see Jerez from Puerto Real or Cádiz due to the hills at El Puerto de Santa María up to Arcos). Chiclana is also a woodland, there are many Pine poblations in that part (Sadly is being reduced due to building new hotels and tourism economy). Most of El Puerto de Santa Maria, San Fernando, Puerto Real are Marshes (Los toruños is a natural park that crosses most of thoses cities) it would mark the inner part of the bay and during the french invasion(1812) it made Cadiz imposible to lay siege.

Terrain:

Terreno.png

- I tried to use the same colour. There would be a change to hills in Vejer de la Frontera, Tarifa, Jerez de la Frontera, Arcos de la Frontera, Morón de la Frontera and Osuna and Cadiz would get Marshes insteado of grasslands.

Vegetation:

Vegetacion.png

- Forest (Not some woods, really a whole forest, like very very dense.) You could argue also Cadiz has grassland or even woods depending the zone you are looking at.

Oh and Yeah Jerez is famous from his wine(we got like 15 different grapes varieties?), being even more popular around the XVIII Century onward, maybe some kind of event or modification to get Wine as product later on?

Im sorry if You feel like denied about your work. You literally did a lot of good work and your best! I really love the maps and those changes are just for upgrading it for better!
 
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Thank you, you did an astonishing work portraying our homeland! I have a few suggestions which I've drawn in the following images:

Countries_copy.png


(Left) Can the impassable terrain in the Pyrenees be revisited? Right now it's extremely big and makes the border looks clumsy. The locations of Jaca, Aínsa, Barbastro and Benabarre could be enlarged to the north, and stretch the French ones a little to the south; or even a few of new locations could be added, like Benasque.

(Right) Olivenza as a location could be added, part of Portugal, as it was taken by Spain in 1801

Also, agree with the statement that Tordesillas should be it's own location, it could have some events or flavor aboud the 'Treaty of Tordesillas' attached to it.

Greetings from Granada :)
 
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Great and constructive feedback, thanks!
Related to the morisco population the kingdom of valencia, I found some maps and information on this book that talks about them before they were expelled. The book is called Un conflicto nacional: Moriscos y cristianos viejos en Valencia, and you can find a bit of it here. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...MQFnoECBUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw37dc1jMEuMfR6sAZ1Qem_v
As you probably know already, all the province of alicante was hit really hard and emptied by the moriscos expulsion.
Related to the markets of iberia, is also a bit weird how if you place it in Sevilla all the north is a bit out of reach. Maybe in 1300 it makes more sense for iberia to have a separate market in the north, which in the future would be merge with seville if you improve your infrastructure.
 
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Portugal is missing copper mines.
I find Iron to be strange as its one of the minerals not found in Portugal in large quantities.
Chromium as a trade good WHEN?

Portugal does have some iron ore, and the south-western location is actually correct (Santiago do Cacém and Odemira), but I have no idea if there was any significant iron production there. And if we're just going by potential deposits, then Torre de Moncorvo should be the location, but that is occupied by tin.
This 1920 report just straight up says "Portugal has no iron industry." Obviously not relevant for this game, but an indication that there really isn't a whole lot of iron mining going on in Portugal.
 
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You mentioned having dynamic names. Will that expand to encompass other local cultures? Say an Italian state gained control of a spanish province, will the spanish province change to an italian name?