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Tinto Maps #20 - 27th of September 2024 - The Steppes

Hello, and welcome one more week to the weekly encounter for map lovers! This week it’s also directed at horse lovers because we will be looking at the Eurasian Steppes, plus the Urals! So let’s start with the maps without further ado.

Countries:
Countries.jpg

Colored Wastelands.jpg

A glorious, Golden Horde! It is at its power peak, under the reign of Uzbeg Khan, so it's a much more menacing presence for its neighbors. However, it has its some internal issues that need to be managed, as you’ll notice in some of the maps, and in the future when we talk about the content for Hordes. The Golden Horde also heads its own IO, the Tatar Yoke, as shown in a previous Tinto Maps:

Tatar Yoke.jpg

We have already corrected the Ruthenian countries that are under the Horde’s Yoke, although we still have to correct the Russian principalities, which will be done in the corresponding Tinto Maps review. We’re also aware that we need to improve a bit the coloring of the IO, to mark not only the Golden Horde as the overlord of these countries, but also that Muscovy holds the title of the Grand Principality of Vladimir, which makes it the ‘enforcer’ of the Yoke. These fixes are also planned to be done in a few weeks.

Societies of Pops:
Societies of Pops.jpg

Societies of Pops 2.jpg .jpg

A bit up to the north, we have some Societies of Pops! This means that the territory of Western Siberia won’t be empty land, but will be populated by these people, which can be interacted with.

BTW, I’m not showing this week a dynasty map because, well, only the Borgijin dynasty rules over the lands of the Golden Horde, of course!


Locations:
Locations.jpg

Locations Western Siberia.jpg

Locations 3.jpg

Locations 4.jpg

Locations 5.jpg

Tons of locations today… You might notice that the density location is in a progression from west to east, from the most densely settled areas to the less settled ones. You may also notice that we’ve followed a design of ‘settler corridors’ in Western Siberia, setting those parts of the land that were habitable, usually on river valleys.

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Provinces 2.jpg


Areas:
Areas.jpg


Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain is interesting here, as there are two main ecological areas. The first is the Steppes, Flatlands with Sparse and Grasslands vegetation, with either Cold Arid or Continental climates. And then we have the Siberian Arctics Forests, which are completely different, of course. On a note, the Urals were set as Hills, as they’re a quite settleable area, but we’ll probably make a review with your feedback, and add some mountains there.

Development:
Development.jpg

The whole region is not very developed, you might notice the difference with India, from last week’s Tinto Maps.

Harbors:
Harbors.jpg

There are some harbors in the Steppe region… In the Black Sea and Caspian Sea, of course! As usual, we’re open to feedback on this matter.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Plenty of cultures! One note: Although we planned to work on the religious and cultural minorities of the region during the summer, we ended up not having enough time to add them. So what we’ll be doing today is showing the rough outline of ‘cultural spheres’, and then we’ll add the minorities during the review of the region. In that sense, feedback is very well received.

With that said the only note that needs to be made in terms of the cultural design is that we divided the Tatar cultural group into some differentiated regional cultures, being Crimean, Mishary, Kazani, and Astrakhani. We’re also aware that some of the cultures, as Mari and Chuvash, might be a bit displaced, as noted in the Russian Tinto Maps, so we’ll review and correct that with your feedback.


Religions:
Religions.jpg

Regarding Religions, the matter is a bit worse, as the big Sunni blob is just because the main religion of the Golden Horde is Islam, after the conversion of Uzbeg Khan, but that’s obviously incorrect. Also, as we have been able to forecast development time on how Pagan divisions will be during this autumn, we will make a comprehensive review of the region as well, to get a good distribution of ‘Shamanist’ Paganism, Tengrism, and Sunni Islam.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

Raw Materials 2.jpg

Raw Materials 3.jpg

Regarding the raw materials, the Steppes have plenty of Livestock and Horses, quite logically, although there are regions with some other goods. And up to the north, the main materials are Lumber and Fur. Apart from that, I want to mention the mineral hub in the Ural Mountains, with plenty of Copper, Iron, Gold, Lead, and Coal. That makes it a very mid and late-game interesting spot, and playing as Muscovy/Russia, I’ll tell you that you definitely want to expand into that region, as it will fulfill some of your material needs by that time.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

Markets! Big region, with lots of markets, although you may noticed that we changed the coloring of the locations that have 0% market access, which is the case in several areas. In any case, the market centers are Kaffa, Astrakhan, Saray-Jük, Kunya Urgench, Samarkand, Almaty, and Chimgi Tura. BTW, these names are much easier to notice in the game’s UI, as they’re beside the market centers:

Markets 2.jpg


Population:
Population.jpg

This week we’re showing only the country population mapmode, as there are some location numbers here and there which are failing, due to the already known issue with our pop editor (and which are on the way to be fixed). In any case, the whole population of the region is around 6.5-7M, of which around 6.3M are part of the Golden Horde. As I said, it’s a menacing country…

And that’s all for today! This is going to be my last Tinto Maps in a while, as I’ll be on vacation for 3 weeks during October (you might have noticed that I didn’t have any during summer), so one of the Content Designers in the team, @Roger Corominas , will step in and be in charge of the next 4 Tinto Maps. It’s in good hands, as Roger is an Experienced CD, who has been working and focused on Project Caesar for more than 3 years, at this point (this is why you might not know him from EU4, as other CDs in our team). In any case, he will be starting with the regions of Xinjiang, mostly ruled by the Chagatai Khanate, and Tibet.

I’ll keep reading and answering you during next week, and then I’ll be back in a month from now. See you!
 
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The vassal nations in the horde are highlighted in white letters. I repeat once again, COMPLETELY dependent territories, joint management zones and volosts are highlighted in black letters. I do not know, maybe I am translating this phrase into English somehow wrong? This is not the first time you have ignored my explanations to the map. This phrase means that these territories are part of another tag, but do not belong directly, that is, they are autonomous to a greater or lesser extent. They can be represented in various ways: by vassal relationships, in-game mechanics, or simply by a dedicated core.
Chervlyonyi Yar is the name of the river system, as well as the trade running along it. This is not a subject region. That is why it is highlighted in black letters. These are essentially merchants carrying goods to the Mokhshi ulus, they fit the mechanics of managing estates.
And a most important part, nearly everything is created by you and not based on anything. Fake information. Describe what sources lead you for „Dikoje Pole t‘ma“?
In this case, it is a dependent tax collection, because these are the constituent parts of the country. In Chervlyonyi Yar, taxes from the Russian population were collected by the Ryazan principality, and from the Tatar eventually everything went to the treasury of the golden Horde. We have information that there were negotiations on this issue in the Golden Horde. There could well have been an independent army, there is evidence of security lines and gatehouses on the part of the Russian population. And the most problematic part is the ruling administration. If the tag is dependent, what kind of independent administration can we talk about? The Khopersk Cossacks will achieve independence in the future. Does this mean that they had some kind of administration at the start of the game? They were well known in Novgorod, so they committed political acts. It turns out that they really had taxes, an army, and a ruling administration. But they did not control another river with a Russian population, also belonging to the Chervlyonyi Yar. Paradoxically, according to your logic, the Khopersk Cossacks can be a tag, but the Chervlyonyi Yar and Butyug cannot be. And how can this situation be displayed on the map??? It's just not possible!
Fully missed my point. Cossacks lived in Chervleny yar. So you created two things out of one entity. You can’t just separate it.
 
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And a most important part, nearly everything is created by you and not based on anything. Fake information. Describe what sources lead you for „Dikoje Pole t‘ma“?

Fully missed my point. Cossacks lived in Chervleny yar. So you created two things out of one entity. You can’t just separate it.
This is a rather voluminous question. In 1390, with the support of Lithuanian Prince Vytautas, this principality was ruled by Skider (the grandson of Mamai and the brother of Oleksa, who ruled the Glinsky principality located to the north), he went with his Polovtsian army to the western part of the Northern Black Sea region and seized the lands there. Since the end of the 14th century, information about the wild field has been mentioned in Russian chronicles. Two settlements are known: Yerel and Poloveshchyna. That's all we know about this place. That's all, there is no other information. I only put this principality on the map after I had explored the surrounding area this year. I have not found any other countries controlling this territory. Can I give you sources about the surrounding countries? I also don't have any information about this place from previous years.

The source about the Khopersk Cossacks, in my opinion, clearly says that they became something separate in 1354. To become something separate, it is necessary to exist for it. Is not it so?
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Хопёрские_казаки
 
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Well, then I repeat to you once again that Novgorod-Seversky ruled Pereyaslavl.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Переяславское_княжество
Переяславль.png

The part that is not included in Novgorod-Severskaya. There is a mention about it from the 13th century that this part was ruled by Tatars, not Russians.
If you like having Wikipedia as source, another Wikipedia page about Novhorod-Siverskyi writes something completely different that Putivl Olgovychi controlled Pereyaslav:
Screenshot 2025-04-03 113915.png
449bf416-8e15-47f3-a0a1-053b312826e4.png

Which Wiki page choose?
So refer to pure Wiki pages is very doubtful.
 
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And Putivl ruled Kiev (although Fyodor himself preferred to rule from Kiev).
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Фёдор_(князь_киевский)
Фёдр.png
But in any case what you write could be possible at early 14 century but not after ~1324 battle of Irpin. In that battle Gedimin destroyed Kyiv-Putyvl princes and probably Pereyaslav and other south Rus Rurikids and took control over Kyiv, Pereyaslav and all that land. It was vassal of Lithuania and tributary of Horde at the same time.
You also misinterpreted sentence. "Из путивльской ветви" was about Stanislav only, not Fedor. Fedor is considered to be some Gedimin relative.
Lastly if you write that Nov.-Siv. controlled Pereyaslav and Kyiv belonged tp Putyvl then why the hell you create separate Nov.-Siv. and Pereyaslav tmas, separate Putyvl tma. Your map even contradicts what you write here.
 
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So, I wanted to look into what was Chervleny Yar - to make Area out of it - for better depiction, then I remembered those posts from our colleague
AREAS
Areas need an important rework too:
  • Firstly, Gomel province should belong to Severia. The Dnipro river makes a perfect natural border between the Black Ruthenia and Severia here. Gomel had been a core holding of Chernihiv for centuries and was considered as Severia. You portraied it perfectly in the cultures map btw.
  • Secondly, Sloboda Ukraine goes way too far to the north and include the lands that has never been Sloboda-Ukraine. This area should be renamed to the Kursk Area. And Sloboda(-Ukraine) must be created on its historical lands to the south of this Kursk Area
  • Concerning the Sloboda-Ukraine I made a suggestion in the Steppes TM, this is where it belongs (trust me, I come from Sloboda-Ukraine :) ):

And following this provinces rework, I would like to suggest a better Areas setup in the region that will be more accurate and can mitigate some issues.
If provinces mostly look like a more 'technical' thing, representing a group of locations, then areas represent real historical and cultural regions that players are familiar with (like Normandy, Moravia, Lombardy, Asturia etc.).
View attachment 1250967
Issues:​
  • Polesia area looks too small, covering less than a half of actual Polesia
  • Ukraine/East-West Dnipro/Left-Right Bank areas discussions and inconsistency (already renamed back and forth in different maps)

Firstly, if we compare the Polesia area in the game with the actual and historical Polesia region, it is obvious that it can be expanded (I attach a modern and a 1613 map):

  • So Polesia area should get Olevsk, Ovruch, Chornobyl, Masyr provinces to be more balanced and much more hitorical.
  • This way the reduced Ukraine area can be united with the historical Pereyaslav lands on the other side of the Dnipro and make a perfect Ukraine area.
  • Actually this was exactly around the times when this word started to designate the lands around Kyiv and Pereyaslav.
  • As a reminder, Gomel province should be transfered to Severia area as it was a core part of the Duchy of Chernihiv
  • The border between the Black and White Ruthenias can be adjusted to balance the sizes, if needed
Province mapmode
Tinto Maps Special Edition (World) – Areas Map
View attachment 1251493View attachment 1251492

Final areas setup:

Following my suggestion on areas in Ruthenia, here I just post the updated suggestion for areas (unifying Kyivan and Pereyaslav lands on both sides of the Dnipro into one area), relevant to this TM post:

Suggested areas
Original areas
View attachment 1251275View attachment 1251276
So I kinda merged all of that with ideas of mine,

and got this
1743772088606.png


Double names for Golden Horde/ Russian naming and sometimes just alternatives.

So I ask everyone and developers( @Pavía @Aldaron ) to look into how this representation performs

The main point of it is a representation of historically important areas: Volga Bulgaria, Chervleny Yar- they all were extremely relevant in the 12th-14th centuries (with the downfall)
Areas like Zaporizhzhia, Sloboda, Don Host, Kuban or Yedisan became relevant much later, but still within the game span, nearly all talks about Cossacks involve those general areas

And the area of Sloboda-Ukraine is now correctly located!

I believe this is the best depiction for the current game start, because the area in general was not fragmented yet. Also, all areas do make at least a small geographic sense, where Zaporizhzhia and Sloboda are divided by the Siversky Donets river, Chervleny Yar is between the Khoper and Don rivers.

The size of the areas is more or less uniform. I believe there is no need to make areas here smaller, as areas were not populated until the late game

Few locations like Krasnohrad (near Kharkiv), Aksay and Stepanevka(near Sarrai), Botkul and Zhanybek (between Astrakhan and Lower Yaik) need to be redrawn

And possible location swaps are marked with blue

How I got there + all data:
Oka, Severia and Ukraine are fully taken from the current proposals or borders
1743755398269.png


I have expanded Severia to include Homel and Oka to include Elets, as the Oka principalities (Karachev principality) had control over it
1743755503618.png


Then I started outlining the Sloboda and Chervleny Yar areas

Sloboda Ukraine area includes Sumy, Kharkiv, upper Luhansk, Belgorod, and usually areas up to the Don river

1743755621061.png

Here I run into a problem that Kursk was a small area left out; however, in the terms used to me, it can be called a part of the Sloboda region
Even as far as Voronezh and Kursk, people talk about their lands being part of Sloboda (Donskaja Sloboda is usually used), so I decided to go with the general Sloboda area.
I think it is much better to add it here, as Kursk has not been a large or important city during the timeframe

Chervleny Yar was used for the areas with red stripes, and a road was deemed to be in the area of Chervleny Yar
1743755992509.png
1743756082810.png

Here is a great paper with its history
What we care about is that the first mention was around the 13th century and the last in the 15th, so it's at the start of the game, but fell off after the conquests of the Great Horde by Russia, where the area was reorganised and people resettled

I went with a bit bigger portrayal of that area, to connect it with the Ryazan area
1743756403018.png

As the areas in between Rayzan and Chervleny Yar got the unique name only at the time of the Russian Empire (Voronezh and Tambov governorates)
I was not really keen on adding Tambov to it, but other cases were much worse

I was also not a fan of calling the entire Black and Azov Seas beaches of Ukraine - Yedisan, so I think it is better to use a double name, for the second part I used Taurida, but other suggestions are welcome. Taurida is a governorate in the Russian Empire

For Zaporizhzhia, I went with the definition, the only thing that bothers me is Luhansk (so maybe it can be added to other areas)
1743757251347.png


With the Lower Don area, I wanted to follow the Don Host borders, but it is quite anachronic, and wrecked Chervleny Yar at the most important areas(Urupin location), so I just edited the current Azov area, but named it Lower Don because this name is now free

Next, I have added Volga Bulgaria - the most essential area for modern Kazan Tatars
1743759280345.jpeg
1743759297139.jpeg


And Yelabuga should be part of it, as it was part of Volga Bulgaria and therefore part of the Golden Horde

Astrakhan got more locations with the capital cities of the Golden Horde to represent the main activity area, as well as the general Lower Volga, giving Elista to the Majar Area

The Ryazan principality never controlled areas around Pensa, so it definitely should not include those locations and provinces into itself

The Matrega area is now aligned with the Kuban River and the Kuban area
1743765558290.png


The Majar area has got a few locations from the Astrakhan area, and now is close to the Stavropol governorate
1743765794643.jpeg


Now, areas that are not based on anything solid in particular

Mokshi / Pensa is based somewhat around the Moksha River. The Idea is to be a region of the Mokshi / Narovchat Ulus. Some areas can be given to the Nizhny Novgorod area to present the historical control of that region by the principality

Ukek (Saratov) represents the middle Volga area - a combination of Samara and Saratov governorates + leftovers here and there, probably the least historically accurate, but geographically connected area.
 
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So, I wanted to look into what was Chervleny Yar - to make Area out of it - for better depiction, then I remembered those posts from our colleague





So I kinda merged all of that with ideas of mine,

and got this
View attachment 1276278

Double names for Golden Horde/ Russian naming.

So I ask everyone and developers( @Pavía @Aldaron ) to look into how this representation performs

The main point of it is a representation of historically important areas: Volga Bulgaria, Chervleny Yar- they all were extremely relevant in the 12th-14th centuries (with the downfall)
Areas like Zaporizhzhia, Sloboda, Don Host, Kuban or Yedisan became relevant much later, but still within the game span, nearly all talks about Cossacks involve those general areas

I believe this is the best depiction for the current game start, because the area in general was not fragmented yet. Also, all areas do make at least a small geographic sense, where Zaporizhzhia and Sloboda are divided by the Siversky Donets river, Chervleny Yar is between the Khoper and Don rivers.

How I got there + all data:
Oka, Severia and Ukraine are fully taken from the current proposals or borders
View attachment 1276212

I have expanded Severia to include Homel and Oka to include Elets, as the Oka principalities (Karachev principality) had control over it
View attachment 1276213

Then I started outlining the Sloboda and Chervleny Yar areas

Sloboda Ukraine area includes Sumy, Kharkiv, upper Luhansk, Belgorod, and usually areas up to Don river

View attachment 1276214
Here I run into a problem that Kursk was a small area left out, however, in the terms used to me, it can be called a part of the Sloboda region with a stretch, so I marked it in blue and perhaps all of it can be the Kursk area (shaped like a boot)
like this
View attachment 1276274

Chervleny Yar was used for the areas with red stripes, and a road was deemed to be in the area of Chervleny Yar
View attachment 1276215View attachment 1276216
Here is a great paper with its history
What we care about is that the first mention was around the 13th century and the last in the 15th, so it's at the start of the game, but fell off after the conquests of the Great Horde by Russia, where the area was reorganised and people resettled

I went with a bit bigger portrayal of that area, to connect it with the Ryazan area
View attachment 1276217
As the areas in between Rayzan and Chervleny Yar got the unique name only at the time of the Russian Empire (Voronezh and Tambov governorates)
I was not really keen on adding Tambov to it, but other cases were much worse

I was also not a fan of calling the entire Black and Azov Seas beaches of Ukraine - Yedisan, so I think it is better to use a double name, for the second part I used Taurida, but other suggestions are welcome. Taurida is a governorate in the Russian Empire

For Zaporizhzhia, I went with the definition, the only thing that bothers me is Luhansk (so maybe it can be added to other areas)
View attachment 1276221

With the Lower Don area, I wanted to follow the Don Host borders, but it is quite anachronic, and wrecked Chervleny Yar at the most important areas(Urupin location), so I just edited the current Azov area, but named it Lower Don because this name is now free

Next, I have added Volga Bulgaria - the most essential area for modern Kazan Tatars
View attachment 1276238View attachment 1276239

And Yelabuga should be part of it, as it was part of Volga Bulgaria and therefore part of the Golden Horde

Astrakhan got more locations with the capital cities of the Golden Horde to represent the main activity area, as well as the general Lower Volga, giving Elista to the Majar Area

The Ryazan principality never controlled areas around Pensa, so it definitely should not include those locations and provinces into itself

The Matrega area is now aligned with the Kuban River and the Kuban area

The Majar area got few locations from the Astrakhan area

Now, areas that are not based on anything solid in particular

Mokshi / Pensa is based somewhat around the Moksha River. The Idea is to be a region of the Mokshi / Narovchat Ulus. Some areas can be given to the Nizhny Novgorod area to present the historical control of that region by the principality

Ukek (Saratov) represents the middle Volga area - a combination of Samara and Saratov governorates + leftovers here and there, probably the least historically accurate, but geographically connected area.
Very good map, I like it, very similar to what I think would be the best!

Just three corrections I would support with my detailed justification, even though I see and recognise your arguments too :)

1. Sloboda should not include Kursk.
Sloboda is a well-defined area, that was colonised by Zaporizhian Cossacks in the XVII century, while Kursk land was inhabited by the Slavs 700–800 years before that, so for me it feels wrong to mix these two because of historical context :)

2. Zaporizhia should not include southern and eastern parts along the Azov Sea and modern-day Donbas.
My main reason is that your attached map includes max. Zaporizhian Cossack control only in the second half of the XVIII century when the Crimean Khanate lived its last decades (Luhansk is included because that was a Cossack settlement Kamianyi Brid and Mariupol was a Cossack settlement Domakha).

But for the most part of the game timeframe (since the Lithuanian conquest in the 1350s till the 1740s) this territory was kind of politically divided and quite stable: the 'Cossack Steppe' vs. the 'Tatar Steppe'. Here are some maps and you can see approximate borders:
Знімок екрана 2025-04-04 о 15.09.40.png
Знімок екрана 2025-04-04 о 15.10.14.png
Знімок екрана 2025-04-04 о 15.24.24.png
Знімок екрана 2025-04-04 о 15.11.13.png
So imo Zaporizhia should represent the most relevant part only, the 'Cossack Steppe'.

3. Concerning the Pontic-Azov Steppe, probably, that territory should be somehow divided into 2 areas.
AFAIK areas' names do not have dynamic naming and are constant. If we rely on the pure political division and names here, it was a part of the Golden Horde, Lithuania, the Crimean Khanate, the Ottoman Empire, the Russian Empire, the Cossacks were also present. Too many choices and which is correct :D
That is why I support the most neutral, natural and clear division (naming) based on geography and the the respective seas: Pontic Steppe (or Black Sea Steppe) and Azov Steppe (or Pryazovia). The exact border is not crucial for me.
Or this could be one bigger area Pontic Steppe / Tatar Steppe / Wild Field.

So my ideal areas look like this:
1743765871002.png

I also added a couple of other suggestions just for brainstorming.

But all these things are of a minor concern, your map is also great, arguments are valid and thanks for your dedication! :)
 
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Very good map, I like it, very similar to what I think would be the best!

Just three corrections I would support with my detailed justification, even though I see and recognise your arguments too :)

1. Sloboda should not include Kursk.
Sloboda is a well-defined area, that was colonised by Zaporizhian Cossacks in the XVII century, while Kursk land was inhabited by the Slavs 700–800 years before that, so for me it feels wrong to mix these two because of historical context :)

2. Zaporizhia should not include southern and eastern parts along the Azov Sea and modern-day Donbas.
My main reason is that your attached map includes max. Zaporizhian Cossack control only in the second half of the XVIII century when the Crimean Khanate lived its last decades (Luhansk is included because that was a Cossack settlement Kamianyi Brid and Mariupol was a Cossack settlement Domakha).

But for the most part of the game timeframe (since the Lithuanian conquest in the 1350s till the 1740s) this territory was kind of politically separated and stable: the 'Cossack Steppe' vs. the 'Tatar Steppe'. Here are some maps and you can see approximate borders:
So imo Zaporizhia should represent the most relevant part only, the 'Cossack Steppe'.

3. Concerning the Pontic-Azov Steppe, probably, that territory should be somehow divided into 2 areas.
AFAIK areas' names do not have dynamic naming and are constant. If we rely on the political division and names here, it was a part of the Golden Horde, Lithuania, the Crimean Khanate, the Ottoman Empire, the Russian Empire, the Cossacks were also present. Too many choices and which is correct :D
That is why I support the most neutral, natural and clear division (naming) based on the respective seas: Pontic Steppe (or Black Sea Steppe) and Azov Steppe (or Pryazovia). The exact border is not crucial for me.
Or this could be one bigger area Pontic Steppe / Tatar Steppe / Wild Field.

So my ideal areas look like this:
View attachment 1276336
I also added a couple of other suggestions just for brainstorming.

Nevertheless, your map is also great and thanks for your dedication! :)
As I have described, Kursk kinda didn't fit anywhere and is extremely small on its own. (barely half of the Severia or Oka areas, not even the Ryazan area size). And as a lot of areas (check how the Ryazan area by Tinto is done) are bloated to fit the gaps, I think including Kursk is acceptable.

However, even as far as Voronezh and Kursk, people talk about their lands being part of Sloboda (Donskaja Sloboda is usually used), so I decided to go with the general Sloboda area.
I think it is much better to add it here as Kursk has not been a large or important city during the timeframe (sorry kurchane)

Without South Donbass, Zaporizhzhia is a bit small, but you are correct, I just went with a Wikipedia definition which comes extremely close to Azov. However I have made a version with a more correct border (at least what I see on the maps, hard to tell)

Tbh never heard about Volga steppe and I doubt it even exists - it is all just Wild steppe, but Lower Volga can be fine I guess
Astrakhan is an area that was called like that a lot, generally because of the Astrakhan khanate, so I don't think it needs a geographic term.
But if an alternative is needed, I think the Caspian steppe is a better choice

Pryazovia sounds modern, so I will stick to my name choice tbh
It is also extremely small to make an area out of it (3 provinces is acceptable for historic cases like Crimea, but not here)
However, calling all of that Pontic Steppe sounds like a great alternative, though Yedisan will be lost

But the big Pontic Steppe and the big Caspian Steppe areas look cool together

And I just forgot to mark the Crimea area as I did no changes to it, but yeah it is still there (I have added it to my previous post)

So, like this perhaps?

1743778624481.png
 
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As I have described, Kursk kinda didn't fit anywhere and is extremely small on its own. (barely half of the Severia or Oka areas, not even the Ryazan area size). And as a lot of areas(check current Ryazan) are bloated to fit the gaps, I think including Kursk is acceptable.
However, even as far as Voronezh, people talk about their lands being part of Sloboda (Donskaja Sloboda is usually used), so I decided to go with the general Sloboda area. I think it is much better as Kursk has not been a large or important city during the timeframe (sorry kurchane)

And without South Donbass, Zaporizhzhia is a bit small, but you are correct, I just went with a Wikipedia definition which comes extremely close to Azov

Tbh never heard about Volga steppe and I doubt it even exists - it is all Pontic steppe or just Wild steppe, Middle Volga can be fine I guess
Astrakhan is an area that was called like that a lot, generally because of the Astrakhan khanate, so I don't think it needs a more geographic term.
But if an alternative is needed, I think the Caspian steppe is a better choice

Pryazovia sounds modern, so I will stick to my name choice tbh
It is also extremely small to make an area out of it (3 provinces is acceptable for historic cases like Crimea but not here)
However, calling all of that Pontic Steppe sounds like a great alternative, though Yedisan will be lost

But the big Pontic Steppe and the big Caspian Steppe areas look cool together

And I just forgot to mark the Crimea area as I did no changes to it, but yeah it is still there (I have added it to my previous post)

So, like this perhaps?
View attachment 1276442

Yes, I absolutely like it this way too! :)
 
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As I have described, Kursk kinda didn't fit anywhere and is extremely small on its own. (barely half of the Severia or Oka areas, not even the Ryazan area size). And as a lot of areas (check how the Ryazan area by Tinto is done) are bloated to fit the gaps, I think including Kursk is acceptable.

However, even as far as Voronezh and Kursk, people talk about their lands being part of Sloboda (Donskaja Sloboda is usually used), so I decided to go with the general Sloboda area.
I think it is much better to add it here as Kursk has not been a large or important city during the timeframe (sorry kurchane)

Without South Donbass, Zaporizhzhia is a bit small, but you are correct, I just went with a Wikipedia definition which comes extremely close to Azov. However I have made a version with a more correct border (at least what I see on the maps, hard to tell)

Tbh never heard about Volga steppe and I doubt it even exists - it is all just Wild steppe, but Lower Volga can be fine I guess
Astrakhan is an area that was called like that a lot, generally because of the Astrakhan khanate, so I don't think it needs a geographic term.
But if an alternative is needed, I think the Caspian steppe is a better choice

Pryazovia sounds modern, so I will stick to my name choice tbh
It is also extremely small to make an area out of it (3 provinces is acceptable for historic cases like Crimea, but not here)
However, calling all of that Pontic Steppe sounds like a great alternative, though Yedisan will be lost

But the big Pontic Steppe and the big Caspian Steppe areas look cool together

And I just forgot to mark the Crimea area as I did no changes to it, but yeah it is still there (I have added it to my previous post)

So, like this perhaps?

View attachment 1276498
Made a few style changes for clarity, and naming changes
Borders stayed the same
 
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I liked your idea of estates. I remembered how it used to be necessary to place estates in your country. It was quite tedious, but within the framework of the Golden Horde it may be suitable (it will be possible to see the nomadic sea in the archipelago of settled peoples on the map) if it is automated. So I decided that some of the tags with a foreign culture included directly in the ulus territory would be attributed to the Daruga estate, and the foreigners outside the ulus to the Baskak estate. I started working on Moldova.

Speaking of which... The Byzantine Empire paid tribute to the Golden Horde for possession of the Paristrian Islands (islands in the Danube Delta), until it lost possession in favor of the Genoese, sometime in the middle of the 14th century. But I do not know if at the start of the game it was the possessions of Byzantium or already Genoa? Different sources give different information. Personally, I am inclined to believe that they were owned by Byzantium, because it sent its embassy to the Golden Horde in 1341.

Temnik Dmitry, the ruler of Podolia (ulus of Burundai), who participated in the Battle of the Blue waters. Known in the Golden Horde as Demir Bey. A little earlier, there was information from Ibn Battuta that Baidemir/Baidera, the brother of Maria Despina Palaiologos, daughter of Emperor Andronikos II Palaiologos, was in the horde. It's probably the same person. However, he was definitely not her paternal brother, and does not belong to the Palaiologos dynasty. But the Uzbek did not know this and probably let him rule Podolia precisely because of his status and the local Christian population. If he had not lost his ulus, then probably his heirs could consider themselves Palaiologos. Should he then be immediately attributed to the dynasty of bastard-Palaiologos?
 
Moldova is closed for suggestions. Please redirect your efforts elsewhere.
Actually, the statement was

We won't be accepting any more posts about Moldavia on this thread.
implying that other threads aren't affected. Given Reimond77 was commenting on something very different from what caused problems in the Balkans and Carpathia thread, there's very little downside to posting such suggestions.
 
Actually, the statement was


implying that other threads aren't affected. Given Reimond77 was commenting on something very different from what caused problems in the Balkans and Carpathia thread, there's very little downside to posting such suggestions.
There isn't much upside to posting it here though. Yes, seemingly it is included in this thread too because when they presented the Steppes it was still portrayed as part of the Golden Horde in the setup, but even by this point the devs acknowledged in the initial Carpathia and Balkans thread (which came out earlier than this one) that that was an inaccurately cobbled together solution with which they've been unhappy with from the get go. Since then they've presented their revised setup in the respective feedback thread which has been argued about ad nauseam, to the point they have repeatedly said that they won't take any more feedback about it into account. Posting anything about it here or anywhere else would most likely only result in another pointless back and forth, 'ruining' yet another thread and nothing else.
 
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There are no 'other threads'. All regional suggestions ought to be proposed in their respective threads.
Yes, there are. Plenty of territories appear in multiple Tinto Maps, and combined with the fact that it would be pointless and confusing to write "in this thread" unless there were others, the evidence is entirely on my side.
Since then they've presented their revised setup in the respective feedback thread which has been argued about ad nauseam
Have you read through the Balkans Feedback thread? People barely argued about the geopolitics of Moldova; they were arguing about the cultural composition.
 
I have already briefly reviewed all the legends about the origin of Moldova. Regarding cultures, based on legends, Romanians, Wallachians and Moldovans come from 3 principalities, the rest of the region's rulers were of Tatar origin. And according to the legends, Romanians should end up in Hungary, Moldovans in historical Moldova, and Wallachians in historical Wallachia. But at the time of 1337, it seems that the settlement has not yet begun and is about to begin. Outside of these 3 principalities, in theory, it is best to make other cultures (Tivertsians, Transylvanians, Olahs), which can be very quickly assembled into one of these three cultures.

I have the names of all the rulers. There are 8 rulers in the region (excluding the rulers of small autonomous regions). The problem is that the legends about the origin of Moldavia and Wallachia contain exactly the same names and village names. The puzzle adds up if Bessarab I initially ruled in Moldavia, and between 1341 and 1347 he captured the historical region of Wallachia, after which he lost Moldavia in favor of Hungary. Now I have stopped at the fact that I cannot find information about what was on the site of the historical region of Wallachia before 1341. There was some kind of weak principality of Olahs, but I can't find its official name and local ruler yet.

edit: I made a mistake in dating by two decades due to the fact that "Radu Negru" and "Negrya" are not the same person.
 
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As I have described, Kursk kinda didn't fit anywhere and is extremely small on its own. (barely half of the Severia or Oka areas, not even the Ryazan area size). And as a lot of areas (check how the Ryazan area by Tinto is done) are bloated to fit the gaps, I think including Kursk is acceptable.

However, even as far as Voronezh and Kursk, people talk about their lands being part of Sloboda (Donskaja Sloboda is usually used), so I decided to go with the general Sloboda area.
I think it is much better to add it here as Kursk has not been a large or important city during the timeframe (sorry kurchane)

Without South Donbass, Zaporizhzhia is a bit small, but you are correct, I just went with a Wikipedia definition which comes extremely close to Azov. However I have made a version with a more correct border (at least what I see on the maps, hard to tell)

Tbh never heard about Volga steppe and I doubt it even exists - it is all just Wild steppe, but Lower Volga can be fine I guess
Astrakhan is an area that was called like that a lot, generally because of the Astrakhan khanate, so I don't think it needs a geographic term.
But if an alternative is needed, I think the Caspian steppe is a better choice

Pryazovia sounds modern, so I will stick to my name choice tbh
It is also extremely small to make an area out of it (3 provinces is acceptable for historic cases like Crimea, but not here)
However, calling all of that Pontic Steppe sounds like a great alternative, though Yedisan will be lost

But the big Pontic Steppe and the big Caspian Steppe areas look cool together

And I just forgot to mark the Crimea area as I did no changes to it, but yeah it is still there (I have added it to my previous post)

So, like this perhaps?

View attachment 1276498
added more areas, I can at least speculate about (in Asia)
1744299312891.png

1744299335193.png


Changes

Mukhsha now fully contains the river Mukhsha

The Lower Volga area is split into two areas because it is too large. Names can be changed

Lower Yaik - now closer represents the Nogai horde territory

Ukraine and Polesia switched lands back

Bashkiria represents Ufimskoye namestnichestvo
1744288715862.jpeg

Extreme anachronism, I just feel like having it, I accept suggestions about it
Can be divided into two, upper and lower, to not be this big. (resembling Orenburg governorate)

Middle Ural - part of the Perm governorate that did not go into the Perm area

Sibir / Chimgi Tura - I tried drawing where the Sibir khanate mainland was.

Yugra is whatever is left + Mangaseya proposed by developers. Can be changed

The Desht-i Kipchak just moved according to other areas

Samara and Ukek can be merged back if area is of acceptable size

To be honest, the more I went into the steppes, the more lost I was; I couldn't find any real usable data. I will not go further east. For those areas, the geographic approach should be used (like with the Americas).

Perhaps areas over the Urals proposed by me can also be more geographic.

1744299286393.png
 
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So, I want to raise the question of Yoke again

By my understanding of this
He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO
that Muscovy holds the title of the Grand Principality of Vladimir, which makes it the ‘enforcer’ of the Yoke.
In the game, Muscovy will be an "enforcer" of tribute from Ruthenian lands. As Ruthenian lands are now also in the IO

But did this happen?
I believe Muscovy collected tribute from only from Russian principalities.

The Grand Principality of Vladimir is called that because of the Vladimir-Suzdal grand principality, which existed as a single entity, but later broke down into multiple states. However, the title survived being given to the small ones by the Golden Horde as a representative (Jarlig or Yarlyk - the edict by which GH appointed). The elected prince had the ability to collect tribute from the lands of the Vladimir-Suzdal principality lands(in a broader sense)

1744621511732.png


So I believe this "enforcement" applied only to the lands of the Vladimir-Suzdal principality territory + Novgorod (as it had already joined by 1337, as I understand, here is a summary). So the suzerainty of that title was extended to only Novgorod and Pskov.


For example, let's take the Ryazan principality; there is a story like
In 1339 Ivan Korotopol went to the Golden Horde and on his way back in 1340 he met his cousin Prince Aleksandr Mikhailovich of Pronsk who was on his way to the Golden Horde to pay his tribute.
So, they personally handled their tribute (not through the enforcer)

The last act of intervention of the Vladimir-Suzdal principality into the politics of the Southern principalities I found was in 1236

Maybe it is better to have Ruthenian principalities as tributaries and not part of the IO?
And there will be an IO called Vladimir-Suzdal grand principality, where the Golden Horde can elect the enforcer, giving them Jarlig(Yarlik). And the tribute will be collected by the enforcer. So the IO itself will be a singular "tributary" of the Golden Horde, which just happens to consist of multiple nations.

Or a third variant of IO participation that is not influenced by the Jarlig of the Grand Duchy of Vladimir title? So there will be direct Tributaries, and indirect ones, with an assigned enforcer for each indirect one. This can give some possible what-if scenarios, so the IO won't be as rigid as the first suggestion.
The IO of Tatak Yoke will remain (to also keep the historical authenticity). The general rule will be that every new state that is spawned from another will be a part of the Yoke

I personally like the first variant, as with something similar to Voting Laws in HRE IO, we can try to simulate the unification of those lands under the Moscow principality (without war on Novgorod like in EU4). But the second one can also work to open alternative history paths.

There can be laws to move countries between different types of tribute (like it is happened with Novgorod, which accepted suzerainty of the Great Duchy of Vladimir)
 
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In the game, Muscovy will be an "enforcer" of tribute from Ruthenian lands. As Ruthenian lands are now also in the IO

But did this happen?
I believe Muscovy collected tribute from only from Russian principalities.
Fully agree.
On top of your sources, chronicles clearly mention a Tatar baskak in Kyiv in 1331, meaning that Kyiv payed tribute directly to the GH via that baskak.
Halych-Volhynia had direct 'relation' with the GH too.
Maybe some of the duchies should be not tributaries, but vassals of the GH, like Chernihiv, Novhorod-Siverskyi to show more direct control over some of them.
 
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So, I want to raise the question of Yoke again

By my understanding of this


In the game, Muscovy will be an "enforcer" of tribute from Ruthenian lands. As Ruthenian lands are now also in the IO

But did this happen?
I believe Muscovy collected tribute from only from Russian principalities.

The Grand Principality of Vladimir is called that because of the Vladimir-Suzdal grand principality, which existed as a single entity, but later broke down into multiple states. However, the title survived being given to the small ones by the Golden Horde as a representative (Jarlig or Yarlyk - the edict by which GH appointed). The elected prince had the ability to collect tribute from the lands of the Vladimir-Suzdal principality lands(in a broader sense)

View attachment 1280937

So I believe this "enforcement" applied only to the lands of the Vladimir-Suzdal principality territory + Novgorod (as it had already joined by 1337, as I understand, here is a summary). So the suzerainty of that title was extended to only Novgorod and Pskov.


For example, let's take the Ryazan principality; there is a story like

So, they personally handled their tribute (not through the enforcer)

The last act of intervention of the Vladimir-Suzdal principality into the politics of the Southern principalities I found was in 1236

Maybe it is better to have Ruthenian principalities as tributaries and not part of the IO?
And there will be an IO called Vladimir-Suzdal grand principality, where the Golden Horde can elect the enforcer, giving them Jarlig(Yarlik). And the tribute will be collected by the enforcer. So the IO itself will be a singular "tributary" of the Golden Horde, which just happens to consist of multiple nations.

Or a third variant of IO participation that is not influenced by the Jarlig of the Grand Duchy of Vladimir title? So there will be direct Tributaries, and indirect ones, with an assigned enforcer for each indirect one. This can give some possible what-if scenarios, so the IO won't be as rigid as the first suggestion.
The IO of Tatak Yoke will remain (to also keep the historical authenticity). The general rule will be that every new state that is spawned from another will be a part of the Yoke

I personally like the first variant, as with something similar to Voting Laws in HRE IO, we can try to simulate the unification of those lands under the Moscow principality (without war on Novgorod like in EU4). But the second one can also work to open alternative history paths.

There can be laws to move countries between different types of tribute (like it is happened with Novgorod, which accepted suzerainty of the Great Duchy of Vladimir)
Also found this old discussion (in Russian) that says with quotes that Lithuania have paid tribute from Ruthenian lands to the Hordes

So, I am now more inclined to the second proposal I did, with a big Tatar Yoke IO

Perhaps the system can be revised in a way that every principality has an enforcer of its payment. For the majority, it will be the Golden Horde itself, but for the Vladimir principality, it will be selected from multiple existing tags in that area, leaving some fraction for themselves. And an enforcer for the enforcer will be the Hordes. So double-step pipeline.

Perhaps there can also be "zones of tribute" - aligned with historical principalities, and every zone must have an enforcer. Then those zones' enforcers pay tribute to the Hordes. and Enforcers are elected for every zone. Perhaps if the character is ruling in two zones, those zones can be merged.
Then, to represent merging, like Moscow did, there should be a law to vassalize the area you enforce, giving the CB to the Great Horde, who might not act on it (because of their internal disputes). Extremely historical.

There should also be a system like in HRE, that conquered lands by Lithuania or Poland are still part of the Yoke and the conquerors must pay tribute, intill the Yoke is lifted (from specifically their lands or entirely is a separate question).

Also, great question, how will IO handle the breakup of the Great Horde? Technically, the tribute was split between the successor hordes.
 
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