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Tinto Maps #22 - 11th of October 2024 - Mongolia, Manchuria and Eastern Siberia

Hello and welcome another week to the amazing world of Tinto Maps. This week we are covering a very wide area, as we will take a look at Mongolia, Manchuria and all Eastern Siberia. So, without much further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
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Here, clearly, the Yuán Dynasty of China controls much of the territory, while all of the Siberian expanses are “open” to colonization. Considering Manchuria, the Jurchen tribes posed a tricky question, as some of them were more settled and Chinese-influenced while others were more nomadic and pastoralist, and some were in between. Thus, we decided to represent the more settled tribes that would later confederate into the Manchu as separate countries vassals of Yuán, while there is also Jurchen population inside the borders of Yuán itself and the most nomadic of them represented as Society of Pops.

Societies of Pops
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And speaking of that, most of them are obviously concentrated in Manchuria and around the borders of the countries and coasts, while the more inhospitable places further into Siberia and Kamchatka are more sparsely populated and thus less organized.

Dynasties
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Nothing that wasn’t expected here, Borjigin dynasty keeps dominating another week. Concerning the Jurchen, currently none of them have scripted dynasties assigned and are generated instead.

Locations
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Provinces
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Areas
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Terrain
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The drier parts of the Gobi Desert in the Mongolian Plateau give way to the steppes and grasslands of Manchuria, while further into Siberia it gets dominated by mountains, hills, forests, and as one would expect from Siberia, cold.

Development
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Not much development in these parts either, and as I mentioned in last week’s Tinto Maps, the sudden change in development when entering China will have to be reviewed, as it’s currently too strong.

Natural Harbors
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Cultures
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Quite a varied cultural landscape, as these areas are populated by many different peoples, sometimes expanding through a wide area while others are more localized. On the other hand, the Mongolian Plateau is very much dominated by Mongolian culture.

Religions
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Very diverse religion distribution too, with Tengri, Shamanism, and local variations of it with Tungustic Shamanism (brown), Yukaghir Shamanism (light blue) and Chukchee Shamanism (purple). I have to say that we are currently going through a review of all the religions of the world defined as either “Animism” or “Shamanism”, so it is possible that there are some changes in this distribution in the future.

Raw Materials
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Very marked distribution of resources, with Mongolia and Manchuria rich in livestock and horses (as one would expect from the horse lords) while the forests of Siberia are full of fur and wild game and the northern coasts are a big source of ivory (from the world-famous arctic elephant herds, of course). However, the mountainous areas also include precious metals like gold and silver, so their colonization may thus prove quite beneficial. Another thing of note is that fish can be found abundantly not only along the coasts but also along the major rivers crossing Siberia.

Markets
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First of all, we have reverted back to the previous way of visualizing markets, as it was clear that the change we did to it was not in the good direction. We will keep testing and trying things, so this will probably not be the final view of it, but for now we reverted back to this version as we think it would be clearer to present. Having said that, these are areas with not much market presence, with the markets of Karakorum and Ilan Hala being the main ones, and the Chinese markets encroaching on the southern parts. Siberia doesn’t have any market of its own, so all of it has currently no access.

Population
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The only countries we have population to show here are the Jurchen ones, with the mighty Yuán ever encroaching on them. Concerning the populations of the locations, one thing I have to mention is that you will see many of them with the value of 150, that is the general default value that we used for the less populated areas of all eastern Siberia, where population estimates of the period don’t allow for much fine tuning. It is probably something that we will adjust.

And that is it for this week. Next week, after having been teasing it and slithering around its edges for a while now, it will be finally time to face the dragon, as we will showcase the entirety of China. Hope to see you all there, and as always very open (and grateful) to all your feedback.
 
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Are there any plans to breakdown the Mongol and Oirat cultures into their subgroups, in similar granular fashion as to what has been done for various other cultures? Plain “Mongolian” to blanket the different Mongol groups doesn’t feel that great That’d be like assigning all the Turkic groups as one single “Turkish” culture.

The Mongols have many tribes/subgroups as described in the below image, and each of them have their own subgroups:


View attachment 1200504



I don't agree that the Mongolic cultures should be split any more than they have been already, we can already see Mongolian (I agree this should be renamed Khalkha), Oirat, Buryat, Daur, Khorchin, and one in the south beginning with T which is likely Tümed. The languages/identities among Mongolic peoples today follow similar lines, so I can't imagine it being more granular 700 years ago.

I'd also recommend taking into consideration this map from the Northern Yuan period rather than your one from 1207, there were a lot of shifts in the 13th century, and this map would be a more reasonable "base" for the games time period, though there was still movement.
Map_of_the_Oirat_Confederation.png



At this time the Oirats (who themselves were a subgroup of the Mongols) would have mainly the Choros, Torghut, Dörbet, Olots and Khoid. There would also have been the more minor Altai Uriankhai, Baatud, Bayads, Chantuu, Khoshut and Kalmyks(?).

This in particular is a very speculative way to separate the Oirat people, they mostly spoke the same language and viewed themselves as the same people, it'd be more akin to splitting the anatolian Turks into cultures representing their various beyliks. Additionally, these divisions aren't really accurate for the period anyway, or appropriately separated. The Olots and Khoid were subgroups of the Choros, the Khoshut were originally Khorchin Mongols who defected to the Oirats in the 1400s, Dörbet didn't exist until the 1500s, and "Kalmyk" (a group of Torghuts and Dörbets who migrated) is just the Turkic name of all Oirats and weren't really a particular subgroup until the Russians used that name.
 
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Some suggestions for a change of location
1 Fùxīn(阜新)→Tóngchāng(同昌), the former was established in 1903.
2 Yìzhōu → Yízhōu(懿州).
3 Kāichéng(開城) → Háozhu(豪州),the latter was local district that existed during the Yuan Dynasty
4 Fushun(撫順) → Guìdé(貴德),the former was established in Ming Dynasty.
5 Tieling(鐵嶺) → Yínzhōu(銀州),the former was established in 1393.
6 Kāiyuán(開元) → Xiánpíng(咸平),because Kaiyuan garrison was moved to Xianping city in 1388,it's original location was intoday's Nong 'an.
7 Nóng'ān(農安) → Kāiyuán(開元) or Húanglóng(黃龍) ,for the above reasons.
IMG_20241011_215511.jpg
 
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View attachment 1200543
I’m curious about the criteria used to determine whether a location qualifies as a natural harbor in Project Tinto. What factors are considered, and is there a specific list we can refer to?

Additionally, why are the Érvykynnot and Yoniveem locations classified as
natural harbors?
A natural harbor determines the benefits that the natural geography of the place to serve as a harbor. So, it has nothing to do with how well it functions as an actual port or how developed it is. For example, an awful coast as natural harbor could have very good port infrastructure built in it and thus actually be a good port, while the best place in the world to moor a vessel would do almost nothing unless a proper infrastructure is built there. So, only natural geographical elements affect our qualification of natural harbor, things like the steepness of the shore, the protection from the elements due to bays or nearby mountains, how strong is the current, etc.
 
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Does this mean that there is a possibility for a further Northern Yuan explosion, spawning these various named Mongol and Oirat tribal tags? For example the Four Oirats (Choros, Torghut, Dörbet & Khoid) to be released and form into a confederation and all that?

There isn't much info on how the Golden Horde explodes, and whether or not the tribes that come out of it already exist as ABCs in 1337. But if that is the case, would it be the same in Mongolia?


There is currently nothing scripted for that, but it's definitely doable, either by script or by natural game mechanics (although unless it's scripted they won't take those specific names).
 
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There is currently nothing scripted for that, but it's definitely doable, either by script or by natural game mechanics (although unless it's scripted they won't take those specific names).



Then I would definitely implore for this to be added into the game. Would add nice flavor for further action and going ons in Mongolia after the fall of Yuan, a reunification of Mongolia, and an Oirat playthrough via forming the confederation.


 
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Manchuria was and still ist incredibly rich in natural resources such as coal, iron and other minerals such as gold and subordinate amounts of silver, copper, lead, zinc and tungsten. I don't think this is sufficiently portrayed yet. This together with Manchuria's farmlands turned it into an important target for Chinese and later Russian internal colonisation from the 18th century onwards. I.e., these resources's exploitation already started within the game's timeframe.
 
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The setting of the Manchuria region is too arbitrary. A bunch of tribes that only appeared in the late 16th century and early 17th century were divided out near the Yalu River, while other large areas were directly taken over by the Mongols. I felt like I was watching a joke from hell.
Even if you only refer to Wikipedia, you should know that the Mongols established at least five Wanhu (10,000 households) in Manchuria as autonomous organizations for local people.
Yuan_Provinces.png

Taowen桃溫
Huligai胡里改
Woduolian斡朵憐
Wotuolin脱斡怜
Beikujaing孛苦江
Zhengdong征東
Buyulu捕裕路
Shibaochi失寶赤
Ojo-Kremi兀者吉烈迷
 
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I asked this in the steppes thread, but I guess it's much more fitting here - the rivers in the north of Siberia freeze over in winter, making for a very flat and good road for wheeled vehicles, and in general. Do you have any plans on how to simulate this? And do you have plans to simulate, for example, how mud created by thawing snow affects armies?
 
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Are there any plans to breakdown the Mongol and Oirat cultures into their subgroups, in similar granular fashion as to what has been done for various other cultures? Plain “Mongolian” to blanket the different Mongol groups doesn’t feel that great. That’d be like assigning all the Turkic groups as one single “Turkish” culture.

The Mongols have many tribes/subgroups as described in the below image, and each of them have their own subgroups:


View attachment 1200504



At this time the Oirats (who themselves were a subgroup of the Mongols) would have mainly the Choros, Torghut, Dörbet, Olots and Khoid. There would also have been the more minor Altai Uriankhai, Baatud, Bayads, Chantuu, Khoshut and Kalmyks(?).


Determining the farther out individual Mongol tribes can certainly be difficult, as many of the later tümens (military/civic units of 10,000 fighting men + their families) that spread across the Mongol empire were mostly unrelated. Being part of the same tümen as your tribe/clan was a special privilege.

In situations where a certain group of Mongols cannot be determined, they could be assigned as Khalkha, the largest group, rather than a broad “Mongolian”, which is the case currently.

I think this would add nice flavour, and we can mostly determine which Mongol tribes migrated where based on the prominent families of each successor state (the ruling Borjigins often had powerful in-law tribes to intermarry with).


The Middle East:
In the Persia thread (here), I was able to find most of the prominent Mongol tribes that inhabited the Ilkhanate and roughly where in the empire, such as: the Jalayirs, Suldus, Khorchins(?), Khongirads, Bayads, Keraites, Sunuds and two different groups of Oirats (which I couldn’t break down). The Moghols in Afghanistan/Pakistan also, and arguably the Hazaras as well, likely of the Besüd.

Anatolia and Khorasan had several makeshift, rather than traditional tribes, amalgamated from the various Mongol tribes that shared the same tümens or minggans. These makeshift tribes could very well be assigned as Khalkha.


View attachment 1200506



The Golden Horde:
I am less knowledgeable about the Mongols that might’ve inhabited the Golden Horde. I am told that they were relatively few compared to the other Mongol successor states, due to some bias on part of the Great Khans. However, you could probably find ruling class Mongol tribes inhabiting the personal pastures of the Khan of the Golden Horde.



Central Asia:
In Chagatai, we know of the other groups of Jalayirs, Suldus and the minor tribe of Dughlats. We can also assume that the ruling Chagatayid Borjigins had their share of the more matrilineal tribes of Khongirads and Keraites, with whom they shared kinship through many generations of marriages. There were also the Qara’unas, Negüderi, Arlat, Apardi and Yasa’uri, but they fall into the makeshift tribe category, and probably don’t count as their own cultures in this context (they would however contribute to the Mongol populations in those regions).

The Barlas tribe, which Timur would be born into, was one of these makeshift tribes. However, the commander they were named after, Barlas, was related to the Borjigins through a shared ancestor, Bodonchar Khan.

View attachment 1200532


Mongolia:
And of course, the heartlands of the Mongols would have the whole plethora of Mongol tribes we have come to know of.


China:
China would have the Dongxiang people in Gansu and Ningxia. While they are made up of several Central Asian peoples, they speak a Mongolic language. Other tribes also spread across China, before their expulsion by the Chinese following the Red Turban Rebellion (many of the Mongols in China would also become employed by the Ming dynasty).

Hang on there buddy, gotta save something for the Steppe Empires DLC
 
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(Not sure if this is the right time for feedback for Hokkaido, but here it is anyways)

Why is there rice in Hokkaido? The Ainu were never rice farmers, and even when Hokkaido became increasingly settled by the Japanese underneath the Matsumae it was still imported from mainland Japan. Likewise the Ainu were hunters and not pastoralists. I feel like there should be more fur as well, that and fish/marine products were the main exports of Hokkaido during the Edo period.

“The Ainu are best known as hunters and fishermen, but they also possess a long history of agriculture separate from the Japanese. Chilly Hokkaido is generally not suitable for rice production. The ancestors of the Ainu instead learned to grow hardier crops between 700 and 1200 CE. Satsumon people are known to have planted millet, barley, wheat, flax, beans, and hemp. Their descendants on Hokkaido continued their farming tradition, growing everything but the rice they traded from the Japanese. Sakhalin Island, farther north, was less suited to agriculture.[1]”

“For centuries, the Ainu never needed to adopt a fully agrarian lifestyle. While rice and millet supported their diets, families also survived on fish, venison, and gathered foods. This changed with growing Japanese influence on Hokkaido. As fish and game disappeared, the Ainu relied more and more on their farms and trade with the Japanese. Laws from the Matsumae period first banned Ainu farms to encourage the continued trade of valuable animals. They later reversed the policy, forbidding hunting and fishing in the Ainu fashion. Today, many Ainu people are still farmers in Hokkaido.[5]“


(Sources on website)

“The men of a given kotan would hunt and fish in their area, chiefly bear and salmon, while the women farmed, mainly millet, beans, barley, wheat, sorghum, and vegetables. They would usually burn the field first, creating ash which served as fertilizer, and would then cultivate a given plot for a year or two before allowing that area to return to nature, and turning to a different plot of land to claim as theirs to cultivate for a period. Bows called ku and made of Japanese yew (Ainu: kuneni) were used along with poisoned arrows for hunting boar, bears, deer, and other animals.[4] The Ainu, especially in Sakhalin, also bred dogs, which they used for a variety of purposes, including as hunting companions, sled dogs, and for their fur/skins and their meat.

Ainu never engaged in rice cultivation traditionally, but purchased rice from the Japanese, who called themselves Wajin (和人), among other terms, to identify themselves in contrast to the Ainu Other. This term, wajin only first appears in extant texts in 1799, however, while the Ainu term shamo, used to refer to the Japanese, appears as early as 1467.[5]


(Sources on website)

Japanese traded with the Ainu mainly for fish, furs, hawks for hunting with, and the like, in exchange for Japanese goods including lacquerware, rice, saké, and swords and other metal tools. Some of the goods obtained from the Ainu, including dried abalone and sea cucumber, came to be regularly shipped down to Nagasaki as "Nagasaki tawaramono", where they would be traded for Chinese goods. The Ainu traded not only with the Japanese, but also with the Russians and various indigenous groups of northeast Asia (e.g. the Uilta and Nivkh tribes), trading goods obtained from these mainland groups to the Japanese as well, though the volume of this trade is unknown.

Japanese merchant operations in Ezochi also focused on agriculture. The 18th century in Japan saw a great expansion in the growing of cash crops, including cotton, something which was implemented in Ezochi as well. A kind of fertilizer made from herring and called kinpi (金肥) was found to be quite effective, and herring-related operations expanded dramatically in the mid-1700s.


(Sources on website)
Hokkaido will come in more detail in a future Tinto Maps together with Japan, but I'll take note of this already.
 
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