Tinto Maps #23 - 18th of October 2024 - China

[SuperSedm]

Historically, the Red Turban Rebellion was estimated to have killed as many as thirty million people. Will Project Caesar simulate similar levels of carnage when the Red Turban rebellion happens?

 

[Cyrus Jason]

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Mongol presence in China:

The strategic importance of the Central Region (which consisted of Khanbaliq, Shanxi, Hebei, Shandong, parts of Inner Mongolia, and northern Henan, beyond the Yellow River), made it the focal point of the Mongol population in China during the Yuan dynasty. There were a multitude of imperial and princely Borjigin families (Toluid, Jochid, Ögedeid, Chagatayid, Qasarid, etc) who held fiefs there, including the lesser non-Borjigin Noyad families.

Here is some further context for why the Central Region was so important for the Mongols

(The mention of “ninety toumans” in the image below likely meant minggans, or very severely understaffed tümens, because 90 full-sized tümens would mean 900,000 troops, while 90 full minggans would be 90,000)

“Soldiers of the Dragon: Chinese Armies 1500 BC-AD 1840” (2006):

View attachment 1203654

Due to this, it can be assumed that this region held significant tümen & tammachi (garrison) allocations, including the Mongol units (wei) of the expanded Imperial Guard. This would mean somewhere around 300,000-500,000 Mongol pops (if we take the 90,000 troops as fact), up until their expulsion following the Red Turban Rebellion.

In addition to the Central Region, smaller Mongol fiefs could be found in regions like Gansu in the northwest. Notably, in 1389, a Chagatayid prince with fiefs in Gansu defected from the Yuan and established the Kara Del kingdom in and around Hami. The Sarta and Monguor people trace their origins to the Central Asian and Mongolic settlers in Gansu and Ningxia. Though these groups are composed of several Central Asian peoples, they speak a Mongolic language.

In the southwest, the viceroyalty of Yunnan and its capital of Zhongqing (later named to Kunming) served as a critical base for Mongol military operations into Indochina. It also became the southern stronghold for resistance against the Red Turban Rebellion. Even today, Mongolic peoples, such as the Khatso and the Sichuan Mongols, continue to inhabit Yunnan and Sichuan, believed to be descendants of the Mongols who remained in the region following the collapse of the Yuan dynasty.

Although the Mongols would be significantly outnumbered by the native peoples, and as a result would probably not show up as a minority on the culture map in most locations, they were there at this time.

Also something important to note;

The Mongols of China had serious issues equipping themselves with the horses required to enlist in the cavalry forces of the Yuan, as China was largely unsuited for breeding horses. The forcible requisition of horses across China, and import from Mongolia and Korea were still not enough to fill this demand, and many Mongols were left to fight on foot. This should definitely be something that Yuan should have to deal with.

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In 1244, the Yuan Dynasty launched an expedition against Dali, and in 1254, they destroyed the Dali Kingdom and captured Duan Xingzhi, the king of Dali, and in 1270, the Yuan Dynasty set up a province of Yunnan in Dali, so could there have been an event that turned Dali into a province?

 

[luo]

Historically, the Red Turban Rebellion was estimated to have killed as many as thirty million people. Will Project Caesar simulate similar levels of carnage when the Red Turban rebellion happens?

In fact, the impact of the uprising is more reflected in people hiding in deep mountains or escaping their own land, no longer subject to government control and statistics, as evidenced by the rapid recovery of the population after the regime stabilizes.

 

[otaman1]

If you wanna get technical, then these cultures can be further divided into even more cultures until there's over a hundred cultures in southern China and SEA.

 

[wangpeng]

That leaves out that the current “Mahayana” remaining in game will be Chinese Buddhism, that is, those following the Chinese Buddhist canon, and it will be present in China, Korea, and Vietnam. The question remains on what to call the religion, and several things have to be considered for that:

1. The religion will already include blended into it Confucianism and Daoism besides Buddhism, so all three religions are included. That means it can’t be named either Confucianism or Daoism, as they have been bundled in. Buddhism was taken as the base name because, from the three, it was considered as the one mostly oriented towards the “religious” (Confucianism being more focused on administration and Daoism on rituals), and the most similar to what an organized religion would be outside of China.
   1. As a subpoint on that, and I can’t go into details for it yet, but there will also be options inside it to favor Buddhism over Confucianism or the opposite, so that is already covered too.
2. As mentioned, it will be present not only in China but also in Korea and Vietnam (and any other country that may convert too, like for example Japan), so naming it something that’s too intrinsic to Chinese identity would not be ideal. That would mean that a term like Sānjiào, although good, would feel a bit out of place when playing for example as Korea (we know that the concept spread there too, but it was more prominent inside China and regardless having the name be directly in Chinese would be the main issue when playing outside China)

So, for now, the current name we are considering for the religion is directly “Chinese Buddhism”, or even leaving it as “Mahayana”, understanding that the main current of Mahayana is the version following the Chinese canon anyway. But feel free to suggest any alternative naming if you feel that there may be a better option we haven’t thought of, as long as it takes into consideration the previous points. And of course, let us know your feedback on the proposed representation and distribution too.

And that’s it for today, after a bit longer closing than usual. Next week we’ll be back a bit further east, taking a look at Korea and Japan. Hope to see you there!

This is the worst proposal and unreasonable. Taoism has clear gods, scripture, the ministry system and teachings, and then the production group incorporated Taoism into Buddhism? What the hell?
This bizarre setup completely ignores history and the fact that in the Ming Dynasty, the emperor allowed, and even encouraged, Taoist clergy to participate in important official sacrifices (because of the roots of Taoism and Confucianism), and would never entrust Buddhist monks to perform these tasks. In Japan, for a long time, only Chinese Buddhism was popular and Taoism did not exist. How does this staggering "three religions" setup mimic these?
If Taoism can be incorporated into the so-called "Chinese Buddhism," then why do you want to eliminate animism? The difference between Taoism and Buddhism is much greater than the difference between those "primitive beliefs" in the Dali area!
Here, I explicitly imploring the production team to follow the original setup - to use "Confucianism" as a "mechanism" and to make "Taoism", not the strange hybrid "Chinese Buddhism" in today's journal!

 

[StrategosCactus]

So I’m guessing it’s not going to be like imperator where you mostly only raise pops of the same culture as your own as levies?

 

[Lohcoh]

My suggestion regarding Chinese religion is not to use the term 'Chinese Buddhism'. Because as you said, this term emphasizes too much on 'China', it may seem strange when it appears in Japan and Korea.
My suggestion for this is to use the term 'Han Buddhism'（CN:漢傳佛教 JP:漢伝仏教 Buddhism that relies on Chinese characters. to spread）.
(Actually, it's the same thing, you can find this name on the Wikipedia of "Chinese Buddhism")
This name is better than Chinese Buddhism because it embodies the most important characteristic of the Buddhist variant widely spread in East Asia - the use of Chinese characters. Or as you know, the KANJI in Japanese.
As a native Chinese speaker and a Chinese student studying in Japan, I can share my thoughts on this word in Japan.
Han Buddhism is referred to as' Deutsch Christianity ', much like the Lutheran sect that translated the Bible into German language during the Reformation.
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On the other hand, I can provide another more specific suggestion
The names you are looking for, such as "widely spread in China, Japan, and the Korean Peninsula," "appropriately used in China, Japan, and the Korean Peninsula," and "fused Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism and closer to religion," were actually not Mahayana Buddhism or Chinese Buddhism during the Song, Yuan, and Ming dynasties, but the "Shushi-Gaku (朱子學, shushigaku) in Japanese and the Jujahak （주자학）in korea.which is Neo Confucianism in China.
（not the "New Confucianism ". These are two completely different things）
The essence of Neo Confucianism is to integrate the ideas of Buddhism and Taoism, reform Confucianism into a true religion. It has perfected the spiritual world of Confucianism in metaphysics and provided behavioral guidance to everyone except for scholars and officials.
One of the purposes of promoting Neo Confucianism during the Song Dynasty was to exclude and suppress Buddhism. Due to the strong belief in Buddhism, a large amount of social resources have been consumed, causing many people to indulge in the hope of the afterlife and unable to devote their time and energy to this world, which directly reduces the mobilization power of society. This is not only happening in China, but also in Japan and the Korean Peninsula.
This principle is also very simple to say: people suffer while alive, and Buddhism can relieve suffering. No matter how you relieve suffering, you cannot compete with Buddhism (Taoism can seize the business of Buddhist rituals in a few places, but not nationwide). So Neo Confucianism does not emphasize 'relieving suffering', but emphasizes' suppressing the expression of suffering ', using ethical behavior to regulate oneself, and achieving spiritual unity between heaven and man.
This is actually a religion that suppresses other religions, just like yeast in dough that suppresses other bacteria.
After the emergence of Neo Confucianism, neither Buddhism nor Taoism became the mainstream religions in China, even in the Korean Peninsula and Japan. Religious beliefs, as an expression of suffering, are limited to personal affairs. People can still believe in religion, but they should not engage in irrational behavior for the sake of religion.
If you have any further questions, I can provide detailed answers XD
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And, Microsoft made a similar choice during the Age of Empires

 

[rhuan]

when it will be the next map review? and will there be a TM extra?

 

[ekika_lin]

In Taiwan, we don’t use the names of Indigenous ethnic groups to refer to locations, whether in modern or historical contexts. "She" (社) refers to a type of tribe, so it’s important to distinguish between tribal names and settlement names. Historically, Han Chinese, Western colonizers, and Indigenous peoples themselves used specific tribal names rather than the names of entire ethnic groups for place names.

For example:

In the area of present-day Tainan City, we wouldn’t use “Siraya” (西拉雅) as a place name. Instead, we’d use specific tribal names like Sinckan (新港) or Soelang (蕭壠).
This distinction is actually quite common globally. For instance:

In Sweden, the Sami people (Sami) are an Indigenous group, but settlements are named after specific places like Jukkasjärvi or Kautokeino, not the group itself.
In Spain, the Basques (Basque) have specific cities and towns named Bilbao or Guernica, rather than using the term “Basque” to name locations.
In the United States, Native American tribes are similar. For example, the Cherokee Nation has towns like Tahlequah (the capital of the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma), but the term “Cherokee” isn’t used as a settlement name.
Using specific tribal names for place names makes the game feel more historically authentic and culturally accurate.

That said, there are rare exceptions in Taiwan, such as Kavalan (噶瑪蘭) and Babuza (半線). These names were derived from the ethnic groups themselves, making them some of the few cases where tribal names were used for locations.

Below are the suggestions I’ve prepared for modifications:

Basai → Kimaurij (金包里)
Ketagalan → Kala (大加蚋/大加臘)
Kulun → Lamcam (南崁)
Squliq → Chiron (秀朗)
Kavalan (噶瑪蘭)
Pa'kuali' → Qauqaut (猴猴)

I suggest modifying the shape of the location in the Hsinchu area.

Taokas → Tiksam (竹塹)
Mayrinax → Bari (巴利)
Papora → Middag (大肚)
Seediq → Puri/Purisia (埔里)
Arikun → Ramtau (南投)
Babuza (半線)

I also suggest that Lloa can be divided into the following locations:

Lloa → Tawrag (斗六)
Dovaha (打貓)
Pénghú (澎湖)

Takitudu → Linkipu (林圯埔)
Tsou → Tirosen (諸羅山)
Ishbukun → Mangacun (蚊仔只/蚊仔圳)
Siraya → Sinckan (新港) or Tayouan (大員) or Chakam (赤崁)
Rukai → Caratouan (加祿堂)
Makatao → Akauw (阿猴/阿緱)

Truku → Sakiraya (奇萊)
Amis → Kakacawan (加走灣)
Takbanuao → Terateran (里壟)
Paiwan → Puyuma (卑南)

Additionally, due to the terrain of the Central Mountain Range, it was difficult to traverse for a long time. The impassable areas should be expanded. Also, the Keelung area (Basai) is the best natural harbor in Taiwan and should be upgraded in terms of port level.

Incidentally, the Keelung area (Jinguashi) was once famous for its gold mining and was even praised by Japan as the top precious metal mine in Asia. I suggest adding a gold mine in that area, as it would increase playability and align with historical facts.

This translation was done by AI, so please forgive any grammatical errors. Thank you.

The referenced information comes from Chinese Wikipedia. Since I am unable to paste the URL, please use the following keywords to search directly.

金瓜石、金山區_(台灣)、基隆市、大加蚋堡、秀朗、猴猴社、南崁、竹塹社、苗栗縣、大肚王國、南投市、半線、竹山鎮_(台灣)、
斗六市、打貓社、諸羅山社、新港社、大員、赤崁社、那瑪夏區、加祿堂社、阿猴社、奇萊、長濱鄉、關山鎮、南王部落

 

[tribnia]

If the name really bothers you so much you could just call it incense stick religion as incense sticks are widely used on religious ceremonies like ancestor worship and Confucious worship in east Asia.

 

[AHumpierRogue]

Chinese postal romanisation

Good god no. Stick to pinyin, I beg of you.

No comment on Hokkien/Cantonese, could be interesting to use instead I guess(Could be an option? I think they said there'd be options between what name is used based on primary culture of the state vs culture in the location, which can be changed in the game rules). So theoretically if a local state were to rise up it could use those names, just not a unified dynasty that doesn't have it as a primary culture.

 

[AHumpierRogue]

In fact, the impact of the uprising is more reflected in people hiding in deep mountains or escaping their own land, no longer subject to government control and statistics, as evidenced by the rapid recovery of the population after the regime stabilizes.

This is something that gets missed a lot with these wars and catastrophes that strike in chinese history. Death counts for stuff like the An Lushan Rebellion or Red Turban Rebellion, or 3K era are inflated to a lesser or (MUCH) greater degree by using just census data and failing to account for the fact that oftentimes these disturbances also lead to a massive weakening of the strength of the central government to actually conduct said censuses. Whether it be stuff like as you say people literally fleeing to the hills(this actually happens quite a lot), simply fleeing to less areas with less central oversight or the government losing control of regions like the territories of the rebellious Jiedushi in the An Lushan Rebellion. In all such cases these sort of administrative failings can add up to millions of people simply being lost in the writing, and it's incorrect to declare them all deaths.

Now, to be clear, these are still extremely bloody and brutal conflicts that lead to massive disruptions(leading to deaths from starvation and the like), so they are still bad and massive losses of human life, just not quite as bad.

 

[Ain-Soph Aur]

We are studying all possible options, but we'd like to avoid something that is too verbose.

Maybe you can take a look at my post, which gives some brief solutions and rationale:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...religions-in-east-asia.1710731/#post-29949810

 

[DoChuan]

As I mentioned in the previous Tinto Talk, the name "Beijing" seems unsuitable for the current context, and now, considering the name "Nanjing," this also raises issues worth examining.

Historically, during the Yuan Dynasty, as previously mentioned, "Beijing" was originally called "Dadu" (Daidu - 大都) or "Khanbaliq" (in Mongolian). In this cultural context, the Chinese name is more appropriate. Meanwhile, Nanjing also has the official name "Yingtianfu-應天府".

The context surrounding the origins of the names "Beijing" and "Nanjing" is closely interconnected. After Zhu Yuanzhang established the Ming Dynasty and made Yingtianfu the capital, Dadu was renamed "Beiping-北平" after the famous general Xu Da's successful northern expedition. This later became the fief of the Yan prince Zhu Di (who would later become the Chengzu emperor).

Following the Jingnan Rebellion, Zhu Di ascended to the throne as Chengzu emperor and moved the capital to Beiping, at which point the names "Beijing - 北京" and "Nanjing - 南京" became the official designations thereafter.

Additionally, regarding the name "Xi'an," I think it also has many distinctions. The history of this region is "Chang'an" (during the Tang Dynasty), "Fengxiang" (during the Song Dynasty, Yuan Dynasty, and Ming Dynasty), and "Xi'an" (later Ming Dynasty, Qing Dynasty, and currently).

Considering the map of the province, moving far south to the land of Đại Việt, I know that this area is quite small, and precise divisions are difficult to achieve. However, the name "Tranh Hoà" makes me ponder quite a bit. I am Vietnamese myself, but with my existing historical knowledge, I have never heard of this name - "Tranh Hoà".

Corresponding to the location of the province, it essentially refers to the area of "Thanh Hóa" today (the historical name is "Thanh Hoa").

 

[CosmoHu]

In 1244, the Yuan Dynasty launched an expedition against Dali, and in 1254, they destroyed the Dali Kingdom and captured Duan Xingzhi, the king of Dali, and in 1270, the Yuan Dynasty set up a province of Yunnan in Dali, so could there have been an event that turned Dali into a province?

Yuan make Duan Famliy as his governors of Dali.

 

[AHumpierRogue]

As I mentioned in the previous Tinto Talk, the name "Beijing" seems unsuitable for the current context, and now, considering the name "Nanjing," this also raises issues worth examining.

Historically, during the Yuan Dynasty, as previously mentioned, "Beijing" was originally called "Dadu" (Daidu - 大都) or "Khanbaliq" (in Mongolian). In this cultural context, the Chinese name is more appropriate. Meanwhile, Nanjing also has the official name "Yingtianfu-應天府".

The context surrounding the origins of the names "Beijing" and "Nanjing" is closely interconnected. After Zhu Yuanzhang established the Ming Dynasty and made Yingtianfu the capital, Dadu was renamed "Beiping-北平" after the famous general Xu Da's successful northern expedition. This later became the fief of the Yan prince Zhu Di (who would later become the Chengzu emperor).

Following the Jingnan Rebellion, Zhu Di ascended to the throne as Chengzu emperor and moved the capital to Beiping, at which point the names "Beijing - 北京" and "Nanjing - 南京" became the official designations thereafter.

Additionally, regarding the name "Xi'an," I think it also has many distinctions. The history of this region is "Chang'an" (during the Tang Dynasty), "Fengxiang" (during the Song Dynasty, Yuan Dynasty, and Ming Dynasty), and "Xi'an" (later Ming Dynasty, Qing Dynasty, and currently).

Considering the map of the province, moving far south to the land of Đại Việt, I know that this area is quite small, and precise divisions are difficult to achieve. However, the name "Tranh Hoà" makes me ponder quite a bit. I am Vietnamese myself, but with my existing historical knowledge, I have never heard of this name - "Tranh Hoà".

Corresponding to the location of the province, it essentially refers to the area of "Thanh Hóa" today (the historical name is "Thanh Hoa").

Very minor thing(and I'm unsure if it's different in china) but typically we refer to Emperor Chengzu as the Yongle Emperor. That's the convention at least, we use the temple name for all the pre-Yuan emperors, and refer to them as for example "Emperor Gaozu" "Emperor Wu" etc., and the Era name for the post-yuan emperors since typically they stuck to one era per reign, with exceptions that proved the rule.

 

[Idle America]

Question: will millions of people die every time there's a civil war?

 

[AHumpierRogue]

Tangentially related to religion, I wonder where Bureaucrats would fit into this system? I would not make them nobles, since the Nobles estate is generally tied to the military(and for both Yuan and Ming IMO there are valid things to govern under this sort of system, with nobles under Yuan being representative of the mongol nobility, while under Ming it'd represent the military officers as opposed to the civilian). They certainly shouldn't be Burghers, the merchants should be their own class of important people. And they definitely need to be an estate in their own right. To my mind, them being clergy made the most sense(alla EU4) assuming the administrative role here. But the religious setup doesn't work either way. If it's primarily buddhism moonlighting as Confucianism, Daoism, and local beliefs then having the clergy be bureaucrats is odd since it begs the question of where all the monks and buddhist temples, shrines, and land holdings are. Even if its renamed to Three Teachings or some such, it's still a big question. Would the clergy simultaneously be buddhist monks and scholar officials? That'd be super odd. IMO even if it's renamed to Three Teachings, I strongly advocate for a seperate Chinese Buddhism to be implemented to represent these things. Having bureaucrats working in a Yamen part of the same estate as a monk in a temple would be beyond odd.

 

[sangyu01]

Why not keep the Confucian fusion mechanic from Europa Universalis 4? I think it's a great option. As you know, neither China nor East Asia under China's influence has religion as deeply in the government as it does in Europe. The Chinese are supposed to be somewhat of a secular state. Unlike in Europe where the king strengthened his control over the people through religion by collecting taxes or educating them through clerical schools, in China these functions were held by non-religious institutions - Confucian administrative bureaucrats.
Strictly speaking, Confucianism is not a religion, although there is indeed a Neo-Confucian movement that transforms Confucianism into a religion.
Let's talk about plain old Confucianism, and I propose to keep the fusion mechanics of Europa Universalis 4 under this mechanism, so that Confucianism becomes a manifestation of the Confucian bureaucratic alternative to religion. With the religion being Confucianism, you can have multiple fusion religions with a pushed major religion (or you can leave the pushed religion unset, which will increase your secularisation and give some bonus to administrative abilities). For example, the Yuan dynasty pushes Vajrayana Buddhism, the Ming dynasty pushes Taoism, and the Qing dynasty pushes Tibetan Buddhism. This means that the royal family can have special interactions related to these religions. For example, the Yuan dynasty could ordain Tibetan monks and strengthen their administrative capacity through Buddhism. The Ming Dynasty, which promoted Taoism, could enthrone Wudang Mountain as a holy mountain, gain some bonuses, and have the emperor practice monasticism. The Qing Dynasty, on the other hand, could strengthen its own rule over Mongolia and Tibet through Tibetan Buddhism.
Confucianism is not going to be practiced by a large number of people on the map, only intellectuals and bureaucrats and the aristocratic population will practice Confucianism in Confucian countries, in addition to the Shandong region, which is extremely revered by Confucius, and which can also set up some Confucian followers. So if we go back to the map, the main faith in China would still be Chinese Buddhism, with Taoism also having a place in many areas. And in the southern regions, Mazu beliefs and other traditional Chinese religious beliefs will dominate. However these religions were integrated by Confucianism at the beginning and are considered part of the native Chinese religion, so they would not be considered pagan.
Neo-Confucianism, as mentioned by someone on the floor above, is an attempt at the religiosity of Confucianism, and if it is crafted into another form of Confucianism, similar to the Reformation in the West, proselytising to such a Confucianism would remove the mechanism of religious fusion and gain bonuses in other areas. Might also make for a good setting. Neo-Confucianism or Zhu Zi would be seen as the same religion as Confucianism and could expand and spread like any other religion, instead of only appearing in the scholarly class. Players could choose to set it up as a true state religion of Confucianism, while abolishing the old Confucian bureaucracy and forming a Confucian government that combines government and religion.
Outside of the fusion mechanic, players should be allowed to use purely non-secular religions and go straight to Taoism or Buddhism; the historical Yellow Turban Uprising and White Lotus Uprising were movements that attempted to create a religious state. In this case, the player would not be able to use Confucian bureaucratic government reforms. Instead, after this the player can enable entirely new religious mechanics, such as Taoism to worship different gods and goddesses, and switching between sects to focus on different bonuses to combat power, research, ruler longevity, and other different bonuses. Buddhism also has numerous sects and allows for the training of Shaolin monks according to the size of the country's temples.

 

[DoChuan]

Very minor thing(and I'm unsure if it's different in china) but typically we refer to Emperor Chengzu as the Yongle Emperor. That's the convention at least, we use the temple name for all the pre-Yuan emperors, and refer to them as for example "Emperor Gaozu" "Emperor Wu" etc., and the Era name for the post-yuan emperors since typically they stuck to one era per reign, with exceptions that proved the rule.

I agree. As a convention, not only in China but also in countries within the East Asian cultural sphere, era names are commonly used to refer to emperors and to record history (which often makes it easier to distinguish between emperors with a single era name).

However, temple names are also used in some contexts, though they are less common. If you have watched historical costume dramas from China, you may notice that when king and courtiers discuss state affairs and mention previous monarchs, they often use temple names rather than era names.

The use of era names and temple names is often flexible and not restrictive.