Tinto Maps #9 - 5th of July 2024 - Carpathia and the Balkans

[Ispil]

Actually, the Romans were perfectly capable of holding their own against the Serbians in 1337. They might not have been able to push much beyond that, but they were very much capable of largely holding on to what they have in 1337.

Dusan's Conquests took place as the result of the 2nd Palaiologos Civil War during the 1340s following the death of Andronikos III in 1341 where the Serbians were invited in by John Kantakouzenos to help him win the civil war against the Regency. Without the civil war you don't get Dusan's Conquests.

That civil war is essentially the linchpin of 14th century Balkans and Anatolian history. Without it you don't see the reduction of the empire into a rump state by the brief Serbian Empire nor the rise of the Ottomans into the Balkans during the second half of the century.

In 1337 the Romans are a wounded animal, but they are more than capable of determining their own fate (which they ultimately decided with the above civil war). If the Romans avoid the civil war, they'll more than likely limp through the rest of the 14th century as a minor power in global affairs, but a fairly sizable power in regional (writ, Balkan and Anatolian) affairs.

Keep in mind by 1337 the Byzantines had lost wars against both the Bulgarians and the Serbians all but recently (with their war against the Serbians concluding in 1334 only because Serbia had to contend with a Hungarian border conflict).

 

[eddin2]

A few things I noticed regarding locations in modern Serbia borders, from north to south:

1. Change Zenta to Subotica (don't know the Hungarian name), Subotica is more important and one of the bigger cities in Vojvodina
2. Can't read the location name above Kovin, west of Timisoara, what is it?
3. Kovin is even today a small town, not bigger than 10k inhabitants, better to change it to Pančevo (wiki link - Pančevo was first mentioned in 1153 and was described as an important mercantile place)
4. Debrc is a small village south of the Sava, only known because of a medieval church and nothing else. The location should either be changed to Novi Sad, or Srem (Syrmia, Szerem), as Srem is geographically right in between Sava and Danube
5. Instead of Jagodina (not sure if it is, but looks like it), place Kragujevac, it was a settlement already settled by the end of 12th century
6. Ravno - first time hearing of this, Zaječar much better suited, 3 Roman emperors were born there
7. Trgovište - not to be confused with Romanian Targoviste, Ras or Raška would be much much better
8. Peč should be Peć
9. Glubočica can be Leskovac instead, Leskovac is just center of the area. If not, then Dubočica is most commonly used

Provinces:

1. Donji-Kraji sounds very unnatural, maybe just Krajina?
2. Usora and Soli - Slavonija?
4. As per the current locations - Syrmia - existing + Debrc, Mačva - Krupanj, Valjevo, Gradac, Belgrad, Šumadija - Smederevo, Rudnik, Jagodina, Žiča, Braničevo - existing + Stalać, Niš - existing + Kruševac, Toplica can be scrapped
5. Podrinje can be renamed to Hercegovina
6. Serbian / Slavic version of Illyria is Ilirija

Donji Kraji, just as Usora and Soli, are historic names for those provinces.

I'm not sure was Podrinje used as a term in 14th century, but to called that part Hercegovina is way to inacurate, since Hercegovina replaced term Hum after Stjepan Kosača took german title Herzog.

 

[Uskok]

My proposal is that Slavonia should be separated within Hungary as well as Croatia which is shown. In a personal union.

Ban of Slavonia (Croatian: Slavonski ban; Hungarian: szlavón bán; Latin: Sclavoniæ banus) or the Ban of "Whole Slavonia" (Croatian: ban cijele Slavonije; Hungarian: egész Szlavónia bánja; Latin: totius Sclavoniæ banus) was the title of the governor of a territory part of the medieval Kingdom of Hungary and Kingdom of Croatia.

From 1102, the title Ban of Croatia was appointed by the kings of Hungary, and there was at first a single ban for all of the Kingdom of Croatia, but later the Slavonian domain got a separate ban. It included parts of present-day Central Croatia, western Slavonia and parts of northern Bosnia and Herzegovina. From 1225, the title started being held by a separate dignitary from the title of the Ban of Croatia and Dalmatia, and existed until 1476, when it was joined with the latter title.

In the 13th and 14th centuries, the more extensive title of Duke of Slavonia was granted, mainly to relatives of Hungarian monarchs or other major noblemen.

 

[Pescavelho]

Were Bosnians really separate from Serbians or Croats at that point in time? Wasn't a Bosnian cultural identity only shaped later, during the ottoman times?

The term "Bosniac" was originally a regional demonym which referred to all inhabitants of Bosnia, but shifted to refering to only Muslims after B&H was incorporated into Austria-Hungary and "Catholic Bosniacs" and "Orthodox Bosniacs" were incorporated into the Croat and Serb communities.
It's arguably anachronistic to depict them as a cohesive culture, but it's even more anachronistic to try and awkwardly split it between Serbian and Croatian culture with Bosniac only appearing later during Ottoman times.

 

[hightowel]

As already said, spread of stećci are proof for that. Map of stećci almost 100% coincide with Bosnian medieval state, spreading to the surrounding area too.
So, to claim there were no Krstjani ever in western Serbia or Hum, you should have bulletproof evidence.

Stećci don't represent the spread of Bogumilism, it was just a form of tombstone, the actual number of stećci that mention the religion of the deceased person is very rare, it is a small subset of them of the already small subset of those that had anything written. And the thing is, among those that do mention religious affiliation there are Bogumil, Catholic and Orthodox inscriptions. According to this logic, future historians will conclude that the spread of Coca Cola bottles coincide with the borders of the USA and of Protestantism.

I don't even deny the possibility of Bogumils existing in western Serbia and Hum, but using stećci as a measurement is simply incorrect.

 

[matfer13]

If you want to portray Hungary as a unified country shouldn't Croatia be completly integrated in Hungary? I may be wrong but beside having the same king wasn't Croatia in a real union instead of a personal one since it was basically "admistrated" as a part of Hungary by this point? And if that's not the case then why don't they own all their historical de jure lands?(beside the ones outside of Hunagary of course)

 

[Cigan1330]

As already said, spread of stećci are proof for that. Map of stećci almost 100% coincide with Bosnian medieval state, spreading to the surrounding area too.
So, to claim there were no Krstjani ever in western Serbia or Hum, you should have bulletproof evidence.

It's abosuletly non sensical to believe that Bosnia menaged to convert entire new region to Bogumilism in span of 11 years let alone for it to spread to Trebinje or Western Serbia. As stated John A. Fines work, Hum was a Orthodox province.

 

[Duke of Bosnia]

Bosnia as a culture or ethnic group did not exist in 1337. It was only after religious conversion and turkification of the locals that they appear that too after 1460. I am being impartial because I am neither from the Balkans nor follow any form of christianity or islam. So having bosnian appear so many years ago is like having Russian identity in 1300

Completely untrue, the Bosnian identity was very different from Serbs or Croats at the time, the Bosnian Church especialy strengthened the identity, this can especialy be visible in the period of EUV during which the Duchy of Bosnia was elevated to a Kingdom, which is essentialy akin to a recognition of independence by todays standards, it had it's own seperate church (both catholic and native), it's own nobility, which was referred to as Bosnians or Good Bosnians in numerous documents from the time period and before it , both foreign and domestic, and not just the nobility but the commoners as well.

The lines between Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Slavonians, Zachlumians etc. were very unrecognisable during the middle ages and there were very few differences, especialy during the early middle ages, but in the late middle ages Bosnians, Croats and Serbs were very clearly seperated ethnicities with differing dialects, religions and institutions assigned to each ethnicity that made them different from one another.

 

[yusufho]

Medieval Athens has declined, and the second largest city in the Balkans is Thessaloniki

 

[HoIo]

Where is Albania's Gold in Kosovo? Hungary instead has 3 lol

 

[Koppel235]

Are there "Arvanites" pops in southern Greece? An albanian group that settled in Greece around 1300s-1400s and their language is still preserved today in many communities in Attica, Boetia and Peloponnese.

Also some greek islands were said to be Arvanites-majority at some point

Arvanites became a majority in some areas many centuries later during the Ottoman occupation.Certainly in islands.During the 14th century Arvanites in the islands were non existent.

 

[Boubakaw]

1-Will Mount Athos receive special treatment?
2-As a Greek from this region, I believe that Grevena and Servia should be mountains rather than plateaus.
3-Will the meteor monasteries in Thessaly, which developed and prospered during the period of the game, also be represented? I think it would be interesting to create a new locality between those of Trikala and Grevena around the town of Stagion, which took its current name (Kalambaka) under the Ottoman Empire. The new locality, which would include the Meteor Monasteries, would have mountainous terrain and wooded vegetation. It would have a small population of just a few thousand, depending on its borders. It would be possible to create in-game events such as the founding of the Great Meteor Monastery in 1536 that would simulate the development of monasteries by launching the construction of religious buildings and increasing the number of clerics (it would be possible to have monks migrate from Mount Athos, which actually happened). Otherwise, I think it would be interesting to make the meteor monasteries a great project like in eu4 if it also exists in project Caesar. It would give bonuses to the clergy and facilitate the conversion of populations for example. It would even be possible to imagine that this great project once built by an Orthodox country would make it more difficult to convert the populations of the province or region by a country of another religion that would have conquered the territory. This is historically accurate since these monasteries were a means of preserving the orthodox religion and the greek identity in the region during the time of Ottoman Greece.

 

[TheActiveGamer]

1. We think that this makes for a bit better cultural divide (and, yes, in that case, it would probably be better to have Moldavian differentiated over time). In any case, we're open to feedback, and reviewing this specific topic.
2. We're aware, but it's a bit tricky; there's a group of people which are already in contact with @SulphurAeron (shot!), to help us portray the Hungarian wetlands on the best possible way.

Even though Romanians in Transilvania had unique traditions (inspired by living alongside Hungarians) they weren't so different so as to be considered a different culture as even within what is considered Wallachia and Moldavia there are various regions with their own local traditions and even dialects which cannot all be represented.

 

[rudeb0y]

Surprised there is no Catholic/Italian minority in Constantinople, considering the Venetian/Genoese/Pisan/Latin traders, sailors, and pronoia subjects that permanently resided in Galata north of the Golden Horn. Particularly with the depression of the Romaoi Orthodox population after 1204, the Latin foreigners should make up a sizeable chunk of the population at this date.

 

[FreeLancer8A]

I've already said it in the Ruthenia TM, but consider changing Uzhhorod to Ungvár, as the name "Uzhhorod" was only created in the 19th century.

 

[Kimudena]

I want to repost my feedback on the Bukovyna region as I believe it may be more appropriate for it to be here.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-poland-ruthenia-baltic.1683125/post-29666003

I want to provide some feedback on Bukovyna while the game is still in development. As this region is very often overlooked and simplified but seeing your extensive work on the maps I think my suggestions won't be lost.

I'll start with some general stuff like terrain. Bukovyna and the whole west of Ukraine are quite hilly, with Berda Mount in northern Bukovyna being the highest point of flatland Ukraine. Right now on your map, it seems like the whole region is flatland with a sudden wall of mountains in the west being the Carpathians. That's not accurate and the slope from the flatlands in the West of Zbruch river up to the Carpathians themselves is quite gradual.

Now to the history. To be honest, I was one of the people who were against the 1337 start date, and now with this start date explaining the history of the region is a bit harder as well. Let's start with that:
In 1337 Bukovyna, or, rather a Shypyntsi land at that time, was part of the Kingdom of Ruthenia up to its demise in 1349 with an extensive Ruthenian population. On the map now you depict it as already part of the Kingdom of Moldova with a Vlach majority. That is not entirely correct. After Ruthenia collapsed, and Bukovina passed to Hungary. King Louis I appointed Dragoș, Voivode of Moldavia as his deputy, facilitating the migration of the Romanians from Maramureș and Transylvania. While I believe this may be modeled as an In-game event, the start date should see the region being completely different, with may be a 50-50 split in terms of ethnicity after the event.
And since we are talking about ethnicity, there is no way Vlack culture should be extended way up to the Pokuttia as you show on your map with Kosiv.

Next, let's talk about the geography and names. I already mentioned an alternative name for the region "Shypyntsi land" The name region was known from the first written record in 1359 (pretty obvious that it was probably called like that a few decades earlier as well, which corresponds with our tart date) up to 1444 where Bukovyna gradually replaced it. In your map, you suggest the whole region to be called Sucheava. I agree, the province may and should be called Sucheava, but under a condition when it is held by the Moldavians and maybe after the event that moves the capital to the city as happened in 1385-1388.

Also, I think that the province should be split into Shypyntsi or Chern (Northern Bukovyna) and Sucheava (Southern Bukovyna) as they are quite different. For example, Shypynsti was ruled by the Ruthenian law and had autonomy up to 1457.

And here are my suggestions to the locations:

The entirety of Shypyntsi land was divided into 3 Volost:
Khotyn - nothing to change here
Chern (Under Moldavian rule can be renamed Tetina or Chernauti (New Chern)) - Right now, Chernivtsi lies way too west, while it should govern the basin of the Prut River. Historically Chernivtsi (New Chern) was rebuilt on the higher right bank of the Prut, so one more argument for the hills. Not that I gave some land to the Dorohoi. That is Hertsa Highland, and it was never part of Bukovyna until 1944 and has an overwhelming Romanian majority. Hence it should belong to Dorohoi.
Khmeliv - the region from the Kmelif to the village Karpachiv, governed between the Carpathians and Cheremosh.

These three locations should constitute Northern Bukovyna, or Shypyntsi, while Sucheava, Dorohoi and Campulung should constitute Southern Bukovyna.
North should be Ruthenian majority up no the Resettlement event, after the event Chern should be split, while Hotin and Khmeliv should be affected less.
In the south, Campulung should have a significant Ruthenian minority. Kosiv should not have a Moldavian Majority but a small minority.

Religion is correct. Everyone is orthodox.
Forests seem good as well.
Population-wise I see there are placeholders but I guess that Chern should be at least populated as Hotin if not more. The prominent trade city of Vasyliv on Dniester used to Have 20-40k people alone in the Rus period. So to add up Chern, Hotin, Kmeliv and villages in the region it can all add up to 80-100k pops. But if that's a balance factor you can tune it down.
Khmeliv is a mountainous region with bad soils where people used to herd sheep, so it should not be very populated and have livestock as a trade good.
Chern's trade goods can also be either sheep or fruits.

Thanks for reading my Ted Talk. I hope some of my suggestions will reach your ears (eyes). Have a nice weekend.

"ch" and "kh" are not used in romanian language for these locations names, these are some slavic wrong shiftings...

 

[Koppel235]

It's apparantly available online (with free login), pp 57-65 about the history, mainly the part below pp 59-60 about the time period in question

Mani : travels in the southern Peloponnese : Fermor, Patrick Leigh : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

xiii, 358 p. : 21 cm

archive.org

View attachment 1158722
View attachment 1158723

Just a correction.This book is wrong about Kladas,he comes from a Greek Peloponesian family settled there many generations.

 

[Vladechni]

Oh boy this is gonna be a doozy, but I will try to break it down and keep it concise and focus on what I know best

Culture

Separating Transylvanian Romanians from the Wallachian and Moldavian Romanians definitively looks like an EU4 holdover, especially since at this time there'd barely be any cultural difference between the three. Also using Wallachian instead of Vlach, or even Romanian, feels like an extremely odd choice.

Moldavia should definitively not be nearly as homogeneous as the screenshots show it. This also ties into the first point, as Moldavian Chronicles do talk of the Voivode of Maramures taking with himself a great host of people, which entails(and also is backed up by actual linguistic analysis) that the Moldavians are more tied with the Northern Transylvanians than to the Wallachians. Though the majority of Moldavia should still remain Romanian.

Tying in with the previous point, Maramures, or at the very least the southern part of it, should be primarily Romanian with the Rusyns or what I can infer to be Germans the second group. Following the event chain that forms Moldavia, the Romanians there should move to Moldavia

There is a distinctive lack of a German minority within the upper Wallachian locations, chief among them being Târgoviște, which would have been half Romanian half German, with it continuing to be that way up till the 16th century. I should note that the streak of German minoritities in the upper Wallachia locations should stop at, and excluding Ploiesti (which should be renamed to Târgușor), as there are zero traces of German structures in the area.

Also, the Csangos are missing from most likely the location of Targu Trotus in Moldavia, not 100% if majority, or a minority, or if they should just be put under Szekely, depends on how fragmented you want the cultures

Speaking of minorities, there should be a minority of Cumans in Comana, place's literally named after them, following a trend of other settlements like Iași(Jasz), Peceneaga(Pechenegs), Huși(Hussites) being named after the non-romanian population living there.

Speaking of the previous, maybe a minority of Jasz in Iași too, name has to come from somewhere.

I am not talking about if Transylvania should be primarily Romanian or Hungarian, I do not have the energy for that.


Topography

Târgu Jiu and Târgu Bengai should 100% be hills

About Calafat, I am not 100% sure if it should be switched from flatlands to Marsh, as for a while up until recent times that region was known as "Judetul de Balta" (The Swamp/Pond County/Judgedom)

București should more than likely be marshlands, it's stayed a city of bridges up until the victorian era.


Vegetation

Wallachia as a whole seems to be severely deforested from what it would be around the game's time. It only recently managed to become a state, with the major cities springing up only at this time, meaning there was nowhere enough time to even think about deforesting the whole lower area. Iirc, woods means deciduous trees and forest means coniferous trees, so, it would be apt to change these locations:

Comana - Woods
Rusii de Vede - Woods (Part of historic Teleorman, it literally means Mad Forest in the turkic language of the various turkic people that went there, must have gotten that name for a reason)
Ramnicu Valcea - Woods (if it ends up getting split, the northern part should be forest)


Population

For Wallachia, the location of Bucuresti is obscenely large for the start date, it would only become co-capital in the later 15th century. As for now, it should donate a fair chunk of its population to Campulung Muscel (Arges would have been a contender but it was most likely destroyed during the 1330 war with Hungary, so the court was moved there), Targoviste (future capital) and Ploiesti (which should be renamed to Târgșor, as that was the main settlement of the area and only after its downfall in the ealry 17th century did Ploiesti truly rise)

Speaking of which, the main three (and at the time, only) cities in Wallachia at the time would be Câmpulung Mușcel, Târgoviște, and Târgșor (Ploești renamed). Also, don't forget about the merchant town of Giurgiu.


Raw Materials

I'll be talking about Wallachia since that's what I mainly know, will try to go from west to east, if I don't mention a location assume I'm ok with the team's selection or that I'm not well informed enough, leaving it to my fellow suggesters.

Calafat - fish ( I can see that the eu4 holdover of Copper in Oltenia manifested in Calafat being the copper producer. This is extremely wrong. At the time it would be a fishing town and later down the line develop into a customs where merchant ships were repaired.)

Severin - copper (this is where I presume eu4 got it's pre rework oltenia province to be copper, the mining town of "Baia de Aramă" (Copper Bath) is located there. This place was where the principality got the vast majority of its copper)

Târgu Jiu - iron (houses "Baia de Fier" (Iron Bath), now defunct iron mine, probably also the place where Wallachia was getting its non-imported iron)

Râmnicu Vâlcea - salt (this location houses the salt mines known as "Ocnele Mare" (The Big Salt Mines), as with the location above, this was the main source of salt for Wallachia, I'm starting to notice a trend on why upper Oltenia was so important)

Câmpulung Muscel - clay/stone (the city had a very active manufacturing sector, with stonecutters, woodworkers, potters and many others being present)

Târgoviște - fruit

Ploești/Târgșor - wine

Buzău - wine


Dynasty Naming

"Basarabs" is and sounds wrong, "Basarab" would be much better


Religion

Ok now this is a big one, and while it doesn't exactly tie into the whole map thing, I want you guys to know that Wallachia (and by and large, probably most Romanians) became officially Orthodox only after 1395, with Nicholas Alexander, the son of Basarab I, would establish the Metropolis of Ungrovlachia. Before that, it was rather nebulous what the Rome-Constantinople alignment was, with the Romanian voivodes having good correspondence with the popes before and even after that establishment. As a matter of fact, in 1345 he got praised by pope Clement VI for being a good catholic and even having a large number of Romanians switch to catholicism, he even accepted the authority of the episcopy of Transylvania over foreign and local catholics in Wallachia. Though even before 1395 the Hungarians did call the Romanian voivodes schismatics so who knows, I want to reason it was because they wanted to give them a bad reputation for being disloyal to the Hungarian crown. The reason for this nebulousness is probably because the Romanians christianized way before the Rome-Constantinople schism, and most likely didn't really care about it too much.

I am really not sure what happened there, maybe it was because the pope refused to crown him a king and thus give him ultimate legitimacy from breaking from Hungary? Maybe it was a matter of popular faith, or maybe he just wanted to religiously split from Hungary. Who knows, but I hope this information helps.



Alright, that's about all I could talk about in one post.

 

[Pescavelho]

Sure:
View attachment 1158677

It appears you are using cedillas instead of commas in some Romanian names, as well as using carons instead of breves. I assume these could just be placeholders. But some people don't know there is a difference, so I feel it should be stressed.

 

[eddin2]

Stećci don't represent the spread of Bogumilism, it was just a form of tombstone, the actual number of stećci that mention the religion of the deceased person is very rare, it is a small subset of them of the already small subset of those that had anything written. And the thing is, among those that do mention religious affiliation there are Bogumil, Catholic and Orthodox inscriptions. According to this logic, future historians will conclude that the spread of Coca Cola bottles coincide with the borders of the USA and of Protestantism.

I don't even deny the possibility of Bogumils existing in western Serbia and Hum, but using stećci as a measurement is simply incorrect.

Nobody talkted about Bogumilism, at all, and stećci were cultural specifis of medieval Bosnia, not strictly religious.

I won't even comment the Coca Cola comparison