Tinto Maps #9 - 5th of July 2024 - Carpathia and the Balkans

[ArVass]

The location names are very bad. Nobody every called these locations in Slovakian or Romanian in Transylvania and todays Slovakia before 1920. Those names are transmitted from the Hungarian names. For example: Făgăraș is from the Hungarian name Fogaras or Trenčín is from Trencsén. So please change all of the Hungarian location names to Hungarian, instead of historical anachronism. -- If you need help with that, I can list you the locations with their actual name, feel free to contact me.

I respectfully disagree, these are dynamic names that change based on the majority culture of the given province. These names did exist in the middle ages. Trenčín even appears on the Tabula Hungariae from 1528. There of course are location names that are wrongly localized as Romanian even though the majority culture is Hungarian, like Zălau instead of Zilah or Dej instead of Dés, but these names did exist too. Otherwise it is not historical anachronism to name locations after the name the local majority culture had for it.

 

[I like wars and maps]

Im honestly suprised it was the region of the Kingdom of Hungary wich seemed to be the most controversial in this thread.

- Churches, monasteries, fortresses, and other Serbian cultural monuments, while there is no trace of albanians, they do not have a single one cultural monument, church, grave or anything else in the provinces of Kosovo and Metohija in the 14th century. It's just another historical revisionism and continuity of ignorance, so we cannot expect anything else but Paradox to please the minority of the players - this forum's ignorant and toxic community, because a majority of the players enjoy Paradox games - do not waste time on this forum. I have played Paradox games for 15 years already but didn't check forum at all unless I got into some bugs or other issues and now when I got tired of watching this historical revisionism.

EU IV will be the last Paradox game ever that I bought, I am not going to support lies and historical revisionism. Before they used to say "It's about balance" but now it's clear that was nothing but an excuse

A post literally gave a link to the book Kosovo: a short history

 

[Silverbow]

The location names are very bad. Nobody every called these locations in Slovakian or Romanian in Transylvania and todays Slovakia before 1920. Those names are transmitted from the Hungarian names. For example: Făgăraș is from the Hungarian name Fogaras or Trenčín is from Trencsén. So please change all of the Hungarian location names to Hungarian, instead of historical anachronism. -- If you need help with that, I can list you the locations with their actual name, feel free to contact me.

It's literally the opposite when it comes to Slavic toponyms. They came first, that's why they actually have a meaning unlike the Balatons, Visegráds, Homonnas and Varannos in Hungarian.

That said, if they're gonna base the names' language on controller's language, they should be Hungarian while under Hungary (and conversely Slavic/Slovak under say Poland or Bohemia).

 

[123e55]

In regards to Maramures region:
What does the Yasine province name signify? I could not find anything about it on the internet.

Additionally, I am pretty unsure about the naming of the Baia Mare province as the capital of Maramaros and the absence of Sighet (Zygeth in that time). Sighet was one of the few cities of that region from the times (with others such as Campulung or Huszt) and even represented the capital of Maramureș for most of its history (up until the 20th century). I believe there's a need for a small rework of the borders between those regions, as Sighet would be north of Baia Mare and Cuhea and in the middle distance between them.

In fact, I believe this would be best solved by renaming Yasine to Zygeth/Maramarossziget/Sighet and keeping in mind its role as the regional capital.

Romanians should have much bigger representation around Cuhea, as it was the center of Romanian life in the 14th century in Maramures.

 

[ArVass]

"you definitely want more settlers to migrate to the region,"

I may have missed this in other DDs, but does this mean there is no button press development/ population system like eu4, but its more akin to Meiou and Taxes?

I have a feeling that there will be multiple ways to develop regions, and they just mentioned migration as a reference to the history of the German mining towns tbf

 

[Mingmung]

In regards to Maramures region:
What does the Yasine province name signify? I could not find anything about it on the internet.

Additionally, I am pretty unsure about the naming of the Baia Mare province as the capital of Maramaros and the absence of Sighet (Zygeth in that time). Sighet was one of the few cities of that region from the times (with others such as Campulung or Huszt) and even represented the capital of Maramureș for most of its history (up until the 20th century). I believe there's a need for a small rework of the borders between those regions, as Sighet would be north of Baia Mare and Cuhea and in the middle distance between them.

In fact, I believe this would be best solved by renaming Yasine to Zygeth/Maramarossziget/Sighet and keeping in mind its role as the regional capital.

Romanians should have much bigger representation around Cuhea, as it was the center of Romanian life in the 14th century in Maramures.

Yasinia is a small border village, probably representing the mountain-passes there, but otherwise quite insignificant.

I fully agree with the inclusion of Maramarossziget; It will probably get included and I'm glad there are more people advocating for this town.

 

[ArVass]

That said, if they're gonna base the names' language on controller's language, they should be Hungarian while under Hungary (and conversely Slavic/Slovak under say Poland or Bohemia).

The precedent from CK3 seems to be that locations are named in the language of the local majority culture, but there *is* argument to be made in favour of naming in the controller's culture, or the country's "official language"

Btw it would actually be a nice flavour if "minority" location names could be toggled on or off based on the policies a country has (eg. autonomy and minority rights vs forceful assimilation and enforcing the official language)

 

[Silverbow]

In regards to Maramures region:
What does the Yasine province name signify? I could not find anything about it on the internet.

Additionally, I am pretty unsure about the naming of the Baia Mare province as the capital of Maramaros and the absence of Sighet (Zygeth in that time). Sighet was one of the few cities of that region from the times (with others such as Campulung or Huszt) and even represented the capital of Maramureș for most of its history (up until the 20th century). I believe there's a need for a small rework of the borders between those regions, as Sighet would be north of Baia Mare and Cuhea and in the middle distance between them.

In fact, I believe this would be best solved by renaming Yasine to Zygeth/Maramarossziget/Sighet and keeping in mind its role as the regional capital.

Romanians should have much bigger representation around Cuhea, as it was the center of Romanian life in the 14th century in Maramures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasinia

Sziget should be present, but it actually matches the Cuhea location on map, not Yasinia.

 

[123e55]

Yasinia is a small border village, probably representing the mountain-passes there, but otherwise quite insignificant.

I fully agree with the inclusion of Maramarossziget; It will probably get included and I'm glad there are more people advocating for this town.

Yes, I checked your history and thank you for taking the time to make quite tedious suggestions. Let's hope to finally get a better representation of Maramures, with correct namings, saltmining and all.

The devs also received a lot of thoughtful and helpful ideas on Transylvania in this thread (therefore I will not make any addition), let's hope for their timely inclusion and, hopefully, fewer reasons for future arguments on the topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasinia

Sziget should be present, but it actually matches the Cuhea location on map, not Yasinia.

Taking a second look at it I believe this is a good idea, as Zigeth should be at roughly an equal distance from Baia Mare (to the south) and Khust (to the northwest). However I see no reason for Baia Mare to neighbour Khust to the North, the whole way the area was created is pretty confusing to me.

 

[dengeabi]

Turkish county names

I also started a location list but it will take so much time. Here is a part of it:

Spoiler: turkish names in balkans

Gallipoli	Gelibolu
Rusion	Rusköy
Raedessos	Ereğli
Selymbria	Silivri
Metrae	Metris OR Çatalca
Byzantion	Kostantiniyye
Chariopolis	Hayrabolu
Alexandrioupolis	Dedeağaç
Arcadiopolis	Burgaz
Ahtopol	Ahtabolu
Medea	Midye
Bisia/Visia	Bizye/Vize
Adrianople	Edirne
Demotica	Dimetoka
Komotini	Gümülcine
Xanthia	İskeçe
Kavala	Kavala
Polygyros	Üç Parmak
Thessaloniki	Selanik
Serres	Serez
Thasos	Taşoz
Rentina	Büyük Beşik
Kilkis	Kılkış
Edessa	Vodina
Veria	Karaferye
Hatera	Katerin
Florina	Florina
Ostrovo	Kayılar
Servia	Serfiçe
Kastoria	Kesriye
Grevena	Grebene
Larissa	Yenifener
Trikala	Tırhala
Farsala	Çatalca
Karzditsa	Kardiçe
Demetrius	Golos
Stomio	Çayağzı
Igoumenitsa	Gümeniçe
Megara	Megara
Thibai	İstefe
Argos	Arhoz
Astros	Estella
Mystrus	Mistra
Tripolitsa	Tripoliçe
Preveza	Preveze
Parga	Parga
Kelisoura	Kaniçe
Argyrokastra	Ergiri
Avlonas	Avlonya
Devol	Körçe
Elbasan	İlbasan
Kavaje	Kavalye
Duros	Dıraç
Kruje	Akçahisar
Dokagitni	Kökes
Debar	Debre
Ohrid	Ohri
Prilep	Pirlepe
Bitola	Manastır
Prosek	Demir Kapı
Kitsabis	Kırçova
Tetovo	Kalkandelen
Veles	Köprülü
Shrip	İştip
Skopje	Üsküp
Strumica	Usturumca
Koumnovo	Kumanova
Kočani	Koçana
Melnik	Menlik
Dospat	Dospat
Smolyan	Başmaklı
Shkoder	İşkodra
Koman	Kumaneli
Sozopol	Süzebolu
Aytos	Aydos
Lardeja	Sungurlar
Hiambouli	Yanbolu
Bukelon	Bukelon
Boruj	Eski Zağra
Sliven	İslimye
Plovdiv	Filibe
Stipona	Pazarcık
Sofia	Sofya
Kran	Kazanlık
Bozhenitsa	Orhaniye
Pleven	Pilevne
Lovech	Lofça
Nikopol	Niğbolu
Oryahovo	Kozluca
Çerven	Rusçuk
Razgrad	Deliorman
Tutrakan	Turtukaya
Drastar	Silistire
Ovech	Pravadı
Varna	Varna
Karvuna	Kavarna
Pangalia	Mankalya
Kaliakra	Kayraklı
Hârșova	Hırsova
Tulcea	Doluca
Taepina	Çepnikale
Starimaka	İstanimaka
Hotalich	Toprakkale
Tarnovo	Tırnova
Tryavna	Trevne
Targoviste	Eski Cuma
Shumen	Şumnu
Vratsa	İvraca
Kutlovitsa	Kutlofça
Vidin	Vidin
Haskovo	Hasköy
Velbazhd	Köstendil
Kratovo	Karatova
Vranje	İvranye
Glubocica	Leskofça
Zemlyungrad	Pernik
Dupnitsa	Dupniçe
Pirot	Pirot
Nish	Niş
Svrljig	İsferlik
Prokuplje	Okrup
Pech	İpek
Mitrovica	Mitroviça
Pristina	Priştine
Novo Brdo	Nobırda
Prizren	Pürzerrin
Yakovitsa	Yakova
Budimlja	Berane
Sjenica	Seniçe
Trgoviste	Tırgovişte
Zicha	Karanofça
Krusevac	Alacahisar
Stalac	Zayeçar
Jogodina	Köprü
Kozelj	Gurgusofça
Ravno	Güvercinlik
Kuchevo	Meydanipek
Branicevo	Pasarofça
Viscsav?	Negotin
Smedrovo	Semadirek
Atranos	Orhaneli
Mytilene	Midilli
Lesvos	Herse
Chios	Sakız
Smyrna	İzmirni
Samos	Sisam
Şeyhli	Çivril
Naxos	Nakşa
Moudros	Limni
Imbros	İmroz
Tenedos	Bozcaada

 

[eddin2]

I found little time to make some map changes, like I already wrote, how should provinces and locations in Bosnia look like:

I added some changes and propositions for the new provinces, mostly regarding raw goods, but also a few about terrain, religion and culture.

Vrhbosna - Horses (there's a Bosnian Mountain horse breed, and I think, it should be at least one horse producing location because of it. Besides, I'm not sure any other type of raw goods can be tied to this location)

Fojnica - Silver (second most important silver mine after Srebrenica during middle ages, with gold and copper deposits as well)

Bobovac - Lead (Iron is an alternative, but I'll stick with lead, as already said, there's a town with that name there, because of rich lead deposits), terrain should be mountains, not hills

Visoki - Coal (if there's no changing goods in game, like in EU4. If discovering deposits of different mineral will be part of the game, than it should be livestock, later on founding coal)

Vranduk - Furs

Srebrenica - Silver

Blagaj - Olives

Vidoški - Wine

Drijeva - Stone (could be salt)

Gacko - Stone

Trebinje - Wine

Jajce - Livestock

Prusac - Wild game (President of Yugoslavia, Tito, had his hunting villa there, because of rich fauna in this location)

Ključ - Stone

Glamoč - Lumber

Livno - Wheat

Doboj - Wheat

Glaž - Wheat

Soli - Salt (as already said, one of the biggest salt deposist in the region, active even today, town of Tuzla is derived from turkish word for salt-tuz)

Srebrenik - Fiber crops (since it's mostly agrarian part of Bosnia, even today, it fits better than stone), terrain flatlands, not hills.

Zvornik - Legumes

Ustikolina - Lumber (eventually Wild game), terrain Mountains, not Hills. And I think it would be wise to add non passable terrain on the northern half of border with Konjic location.

Bihać - Lumber, terrain should be Hills, not mountains

Gradiški Brod - Wheat (later on Iron deposits could be discovered)


Although Slano isn't part of Bosnia, salt should be raw good produced there, even the name Slano, means salty.


Religious map:

Bosnia and Donji Kraji should have Krstjani majority with catholic minority (exception Srebrenica, orthodox should be minority there, as already present). Usora and Soli should have Krstjani majority, both catholic and orthodox minority, with orthodox being slightly ahead. Una-Sana should be catholic majority, minority of Krstjani (since that part was basically never part of medieval Bosnia, there shouldn't be much of them there).

Hum is most complex, catholics should be majority in Drijeva and Metković, Gacko and Trebinje should be majority orthodox, all having Krstjani minority, Konjic majority Krstjani, catholic minority, Vidoški orthodox majority with catholic as second, and krstjani third minority, while Blagaj is best being split threeways, with no majority at the time.

 

[Alexandros Constantonos]

Dear TintoTalks,

As a Hungarian (and historian) I would like to share you some minor (but significant) erros. The province called "Budapest" is wrong, Budapest as a city was created in 1873 from the unification of Buda, Pest and Óbuda. It should be renamed, or split it at the Danube river to Pest and Buda provinces. Although the two cities were economically attached to eachother. Pest was more like on plains (significant livestock, crafts) and Buda is on hills (significant wine production).

The province called "Bácsa" is wrong, it is "Bács", instead of "Banat" it is "Bánság"

The location names are very bad. Nobody every called these locations in Slovakian or Romanian in Transylvania and todays Slovakia before 1920. Those names are transmitted from the Hungarian names. For example: Făgăraș is from the Hungarian name Fogaras or Trenčín is from Trencsén. So please change all of the Hungarian location names to Hungarian, instead of historical anachronism. -- If you need help with that, I can list you the locations with their actual name, feel free to contact me.

The name "Koloszvár" is wrong, it is "Kolozsvár", flip the "s" and "z" letters.

A historian shouldn't be motivated by nationalistic ideas in order to be taken seriously (by me at least, I'm sure many hungarians are happy with you saying this). Why don't you mention that the etymology of Fagaras/Fogaras is not completly known and there's, generally, 3 theories? 1.Romanian origin. Făgăraș = fag (birch tree) + ar (suffix for professions or crafts) + aș (diminutive). 2. Hungarian origin: fogros/fogoros - a word meaning "a place full of partridge. 3. Pecheneg origin: Fagar šu - meaning "the water of the ash tree".

And I don't think you could ever make the case for no one using the romanian and slovakian names before 1920. That's just plain stupid. Romanians and Slovakians had their own names for places, and yes, many times they adopted the hungarian names and they were adapted to the language. Those people didn't just switch to speaking hungarian every time they wanted to name a city. "Da, fratilor, trebuie sa ma duc pana la GYULAFEHÉRVÁR sa cumpar un pui". - it was just called Bălgrad and, later, a calque from hungarian was created, changing the name to Alba-Iulia.

 

[stefanbogd]

A post literally gave a link to the book Kosovo: a short history

i have to respectfully disagree with that book,
it was published in 1998, same time the kosovo war was brewing (or rather started to boil), and washington was not a neutral party to the conflict, so i'm inclined to believe there was some incentive for the author to present kosovo as not serbian.

i think documents from the time (various charters from serbian kings and an ottoman defter from 1455) are a much better source and there we can find the region consistently had an overwhelming slavic majority

 

[Inzano]

View attachment 1161720
Here is just a SMALL part of the Serbian churches and monasteries in Kosovo. However, I hope this gives you a good insight into the fact that 95% of the inhabitants were Serbs. I would also like to emphasize that Prizren was the "capital city" of Stefan Uroš IV Dušan Nemanjić, while Skopje was the city where he proclaimed himself Emperor. Please take care of these details.

Weren't Albanians also Orthodox at that time, how do you know if the church was Albanian or Serbian? Even when there was no Albanian Orthodox Church yet, but Albania was under the Greek Orthodox Church and Kosovo was under the Serbian Orthodox Church in relation to the territory of the Principality of Serbia?

 

[Mingmung]

Yes, I checked your history and thank you for taking the time to make quite tedious suggestions. Let's hope to finally get a better representation of Maramures, with correct namings, saltmining and all.

The devs also received a lot of thoughtful and helpful ideas on Transylvania in this thread (therefore I will not make any addition), let's hope for their timely inclusion and, hopefully, fewer reasons for future arguments on the topic.



Taking a second look at it I believe this is a good idea, as Zigeth should be at roughly an equal distance from Baia Mare (to the south) and Khust (to the northwest). However I see no reason for Baia Mare to neighbour Khust to the North, the whole way the area was created is pretty confusing to me.

Yeah, Maramures should definitely get a Salt-tradegood! I remember suggesting this 4 years ago for Eu4, too.

A Maramarossziget location would be ideal for such a tradegood, as Aknaszlatina/Solotyvno and its rich salt mine was basically a stone's throw away.
https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aknaszlatina (a quick Google-search yields enough information, too).

Does someone know why there are copper-mines in Wallachia, though? I can't find anything about it. EDIT: Never mind, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baia_de_Aramă

 

[Tokci]

Yeah, Maramures should definitely get a Salt-tradegood! I remember suggesting this 4 years ago for Eu4, too.

A Maramarossziget location would be ideal for such a tradegood, as Aknaszlatina/Solotyvno and its rich salt mine was basically a stone's throw away.
https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aknaszlatina (a quick Google-search yields enough information, too).

Does someone know why there are copper-mines in Wallachia, though? I can't find anything about it.

Rónaszék is also a super important salt mining town next to them: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rónaszék

 

[Mingmung]

Rónaszék is also a super important salt mining town next to them: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rónaszék

And yet another reason to create a Maramarossziget location with Salt as its tradegood! Nice one.

 

[ZigTheNorweigan]

Certainly! It should be Duchy of Durrazzo lead by the Angevins in Durrës, the rest of the territory they labeled "Albania" is Topia, and the part of the province of Albania that's inside the Despotate of Epirus is Muzaka (which was fully independent and who's representation I've been asking for for months.

I think a setup of 4 Albanian statelets Topia (in the north ),Muzaka (in the south),Gropaj (around Lake Ohrid under Serbian vassalship ) and mataringa on the coast with 1 more being the duchy of durrazo around durres. Although im not an expert on Albanian history so please tell me if i said anything wrong!

 

[Ambroseos]

A historian shouldn't be motivated by nationalistic ideas in order to be taken seriously (by me at least, I'm sure many hungarians are happy with you saying this). Why don't you mention that the etymology of Fagaras/Fogaras is not completly known and there's, generally, 3 theories? 1.Romanian origin. Făgăraș = fag (birch tree) + ar (suffix for professions or crafts) + aș (diminutive). 2. Hungarian origin: fogros/fogoros - a word meaning "a place full of partridge. 3. Pecheneg origin: Fagar šu - meaning "the water of the ash tree".

And I don't think you could ever make the case for no one using the romanian and slovakian names before 1920. That's just plain stupid. Romanians and Slovakians had their own names for places, and yes, many times they adopted the hungarian names and they were adapted to the language. Those people didn't just switch to speaking hungarian every time they wanted to name a city. "Da, fratilor, trebuie sa ma duc pana la GYULAFEHÉRVÁR sa cumpar un pui". - it was just called Bălgrad and, later, a calque from hungarian was created, changing the name

Before writing this, I want to note that I love how 28 people disagreed with me before even posting anything lol, great stuff guys.

I won't go on a massive rant because I don't have time, so here's the short version of what I think is wrong with the map:

Moldova shouldn't be integrated in the Golden Horde. We know that prior to the 1346 Moldovan march established by Dragos, who was a romanian noble from transylvania, there were still multiple Moldovan states there, basically various chieftains that would be semi independent, under influence of the horde for the eastern chieftains, influence of hungary for the chieftains next to the mountains in the west and influenced by galicia volhynia for the northern lords.

I have a ton of Romanian sources to back this up, such as Descriptio Moldavae, which was written by Dimitrie Camtemir in the early 1700s, a historian himself and prince of Moldova at the time, BUT I know that it can seem like oh ma ger it's just romanian propaganda, so will give foreign sources, namely the Polish chronicler Jan Dlugosz mentions that Romanians from the Moldovan parts fought alongside the Poles against the Margraviate of Brandenburg in 1342, he also mentions Romanians from Maramures doing the same in his Annals of Jan Dlugosz. He lived in teh early 1400s and is the most accurate and early source we have from the time period of that region.

As for Transylvania, again, if you ask Romanians we got hundreds of sources, if you ask Hungarians they have the same, so I won't quote Romanian sources since they will ofc say that it was majority romanians in Transylvania in 1300s, but will instead mention Byzantine sources and outside sources such as:

Nikephoros Gregoras (1295-1360) - "Roman History" he talks about the Hungarian and Romanian principalities in the 13th and 14th century. Recommend reading the whole thing, beautiful book and contemporary for the period, gives massive insights into why the Hungarian crown brought previously german saxons to settle in Transylvania, as a means of evening out the unbalance of population, since Romanians were the vast majority of people there, were orthodox and refused conversion to catholicism, which was one of the main problems.

Georgius Pachymeres (1242-1310) - "Historia"
Mentions Hungary and neighbours including various lords in the moldovan areas within the 13th and 14th centuries.

Another major thing is that Transylvanian Romanians in 1300s were identical to the Romanians in Moldova and Wallachia. The reality is that Hungary formed Wallachia and Moldova with Romanians from Transylvania LITERALLY in this century, there were no major differences in language or customs between the 3 at the time, this maybe came around as a result of separation between the 2 areas in the NEXT 400 years, but even so, it's more of an accent than any actual different words. By the logic you're using right now, you should have 10 different cultures in England cause of different accents...and that's not how it works.

Also Wallachian as a culture is weird, the people there called themselves Romanians in the 1300s, so you can either call them that, OR call them Vlachs, which is what they were called by Germans, Slavs and by extension Byzantines, which used the words vlach that the slavs used for various political reasons.

If you need more sources, let me know, I got a ton more, just remember to read the whole thing, not look for paragraphs, cause that's now how reading goes, especially when it comes to history.

Much love to all my Balkan brothers and sisters and remember, Rome is eternal.

I agree there is no reason for the existence of a Transylvanian culture but by the same logic there shouldn't be a székely culture either as there were no difference between them and hungarians besides accent but many more different hungarian regions had various accents. One important thing though is that the székely people were freeman, they weren't peasant, they were freeman thus they lived in their own communities, villages and cities, elected their own mayors and leaders in exchange for military service.

Additionally the Unio Trium Nationum should also be included later on in the game.

Transylvania was the first country to adopt freedom of religion so that should be also included via events or smth.

The etnich make-up of Transylvania is kinda good as it is on the map, we obviously do not know the real numbers, however important to note that there were not powerful nobels who were vlach or slovakian, there were only croatiand but as we can see later on in Zrínyi Miklós they considered themselves hungarian as at that time it was really the nobility who thought in terms of nations.

Hungary should have multiple gold and other kinds of mines as this was the period when Hungary produced the most gold in Europe.

The cities in Transylvania were Hungarian or German majority. Additionally the important cities should be independent of nobels as Caroberto strongly relied on them and supported their growth.

 

[Vojvoda Drago]

Im honestly suprised it was the region of the Kingdom of Hungary wich seemed to be the most controversial in this thread.

A post literally gave a link to the book Kosovo: a short history

A writer of that propaganda that you call a "book" is a president of the anglo-albanian association lmao