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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
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The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
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Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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Chuvash or Tatar - this may be a matter of faith.
I have a Tatar Chuvash acquaintance, his last name is Suleimankin - i.e. some ancestor of his was most likely a Muslim named Suleiman.
Then he converted to Orthodoxy. At the same time, this man’s grandmother was a Chuvash pagan healer, while remaining Orthodox - “dual faith.”
Yes. But there are no sources about how widespread was Islam in Kazan khanate. Chuvash people were pagan (I have never denied that) at 1337 and will convert and will be forcefully converted to orthodoxy later. Source in Russian.
 
No. it was a Russian expedition. Sviyazhsk, until the generation of Kazan, was a huge military camp.
At its peak, a garrison of up to 7 thousand people lived there.
Sviyazhsk is considered one of the milestones in the history of Russian fortification, associated with the military engineer of Ivan the Terrible - Vyrodkov.

During the Russian conquest of the region, all non-Russians were evicted from Cheboksary. And for a long time they were forbidden to settle in the fortress (like the Tatars in Kazan).
Again I don't see where is contradiction. They participated in the build (here about the city, it mentions Горные люди and later mentions that they call themselves Chuvash)(here is about chuvash history, you need to scroll down in the history section) of the city, but they didn't settle the city itself. But they lived around it. At game start(1337) they lived in a location called Sviyazhsk(which is a bad name as this city was built much later and just Sviya is better) and Cheboksary. Edit: and in between of those locations, and also around Cheboksary location.

Also, the game starts 200 years too early for the Russian expedition.
 
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I've taken everyone's feedback and I've updated my cultural map. Hopefully this will be the final version, but if you have any feedback please tell me again, I do want to make this map perfect.


Thanks for the info on the Sámi, I've added them to the north of lake Onega and everywhere that they were present. I also had to change their colour because otherwise they would have been hard to distinguish from the Karelians, however I didn't change the Sámi colour in Murmansk because I don't think they should actually be Orange, I only did it for illustrative purposes.


Fair point, I've changed it now.


You are right that the Udmurts were concentrated in that region, but they also did reach further north, it's just that northern Vyatka is sparsely populated, but the few people who lived there were Udmurts. See the Vyatka principality for more details. As for the Bjarmians, I'm not touching them anymore, I know that I said that I wanted to make the map perfect, but I'm breaking that rule when it comes to the Bjarms. They're a nightmare to research and almost all of the evidence comes from a small amount of archaeological sites, also many of the sources are in Russian and impossible to track down. So I'm giving up on researching them, it's not worth it.

As for the Meshchera, yes they were definitely present in 1337, in fact the last accounts of their presence are from the 16th century. They survived for so long because the lived in the Meshchera lowlands, which were extremely swampy and never had much large scale Russian settlement. I actually underrepresented them originally as I misjudged the size of the Meshchera lowlands; I've also added a Severian minority to the Tuma location, as there were Russian settlements on the north bank of the Oka river, which is in the Tuma location.

Finally the Ungri, Fair point about the name, the term Ungri is only used in Eastern Roman, Arabic and Frankish sources. So I've instead changed the name to the old Magyarok word for Magyar, which is Mogyer; it's not a perfect name but it's the best I could think of. I also expanded Mogyer to include the region of Magna Hungaria, which was Mogyer in the 1230s according to the accounts of Friar Julian. To verify this, I read This Journal on the connections between many Uralic and Ob-Ugric peoples to the Hungarian conquerors. The Journal backs up the conclusion that the Chiyalik culture was related to the Kushnarenkovo and Karayakupovo cultures, which lived in the region of Magna Hungaria at the time of Friar Julians travels. The evidence points towards all 3 of these cultures being related to the Magyars, it also points towards the conclusion that these peoples lived in these regions as late as the early 14th century, although this link isn't as strong with the Kushnarenkovo and Karayakupovo cultures.

Finally I added a Kazani minority to the Kungur location, to represent the Gaina tribe. Who underwent Kipchakisation starting in the 13th century and are often regarded as a Volga Tatar people from the 14th century onwards.

That's all the changes I've made so far, I might make more later, but it depends on how much feedback I get on the map. I still could portray Arkhangelsk better, but it would take a long time to do the research. Even then, my portrayal of the Arkhangelsk area is still an improvement over the original Tinto map, so I hope it helps when the new cultural map for the Russia region is made, when the Russia feedback thread is made. Anyway, that's all for now, bye.
One more question, why have you separated Mogyer from Mari?

Edit: incorrect info(
All current research considers them Mari. It is strange to divide Eastern Mari into two groups
1720430541551.png
 
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Can you please share the sources. I, unfortunately, can't find anything about separate diaspora of people who called themselves Mogyar.

But I found a map of historical regions of Finno-ugric tribes, and I also don't see here people named Mogyer.

View attachment 1160430
Seems like the Chiyalik culture existed also along the Sylva river in Perm krai. So perhaps they should inhabit a much larger area to the north. They seem to have been exposed to Islam but not been converted entirely in this area. However they weren't Bashkirized at this point since their ethnogenesis was still undergoing in Bashkiria itself.
Machine translated

1720444443560.png


They have been assimilated into Tatars and Bashkirs. The culture represents the Chiyalik culture which was formed by Hungarian speakers who stayed along the Belaya river.
 
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They have been assimilated into Tatars and Bashkirs. The culture represents the Chiyalik culture which was formed by Hungarian speakers who stayed along the Belaya river.
Cool, I missed it in the thread. Thanks for pointing it out!
 
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Some naming suggestions for my native region: Ivanovo is a bit anachronistic as it was first mentioned in 17th century and came to prominence in 19th century. Kokhma would be a more appropriate name for the area. The location between Nerekhta and Yurievets (Yuryev Povolzhsk) would better be Plyos than Yakovlevskoye - it was an important strategic point.
 
I don't know if this thread is till getting reviewed by Paradox, but I hope I can benefit the region with some suggestions regarding cultural development I have been thinking about. I would use Zaliznyak as a main source + would use map of approximate dialects of Old Russian language in 14th century before they begin to desintegrate and develop into modern Eastern Slavic languages.
I suggest creating a culture for each of those: Old Novgorodian, Vladimiran (North-Eastern Rus'), Severian (Central Rus'), Kyivan (Southern Rus'), Galichian (Southwestern Rus')

Old Rus' language was mostly similar at the time in southwest and up to northeast, but was quite different from Old Novgorodian. At the time Old Rus' language was divided by three zones: Old Ruthenian language, Old Novgorodian and Old Russian language. Both Old Ruthenian language zone and Old Russian language zone divided Central Rus' dialect due to political difference on the lands under Lithuania and Muscovy. Zaliznyak suggests Russian language was created as a result of intermix of North-Eastern Rus' dialect and Old Novgorodian, and Ruthenian was based mostly on dialects around Minsk with later incorporation of more Southern dialects.

Distinct feature of all Central Rus' dialects, Belorussian and modern Southern Russian dialects coming from it is that they have few distinct similarities: reduction of unstressed "O", proto-slavic ě, proto-slavic g (fricative [ɣ]), "v" spelled /ў/, no "f" and many other
Belorussian therefore is more similar to how people in Southern Russia would talk just 100 hundred years ago, but it is still a very distinct language from Russian and has lots in common with Ukrainian.

I think cultures should work like this:
Russian culture should be formed by the mix of Old Novgorodian and Vladimiran, and as much Central Rus' dialect as Russian state can grab before it is going to become Ruthenian culture.
Ruthenian culture should be formed inside Lithuania based on Central Rus' dialect zone and spread on Southern and Southwestern as fast as they can. When these lands are going to become part of Poland, Ruthenian culture would be desintegrated on Belorussian in Lithuania and Ukrainian in Poland, where both Ukrainian and Belorussian would be able to assimilate Severian, Kyivan and Galichian cultures really fast.
Rusyn language should emerge based on Southwestern dialects inside Hungary.
If Russian, Ruthenian, Belorussian, Rusyn or Ukrainian cultures are not getting formed in the first 200 years than Novgorodian, Vladimirian, Severian, Kyivan and Galichian cultures should lose ability to assimilate each other fast and form these "mixed" cultures, because they sort of getting developed inside their own borders representing faster growing distinction from other Eastern European cultures.
 

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I think cultures should work like this:
Russian culture should be formed by the mix of Old Novgorodian and Vladimiran, and as much Central Rus' dialect as Russian state can grab before it is going to become Ruthenian culture.
Ruthenian culture should be formed inside Lithuania based on Central Rus' dialect zone and spread on Southern and Southwestern as fast as they can. When these lands are going to become part of Poland, Ruthenian culture would be desintegrated on Belorussian in Lithuania and Ukrainian in Poland, where both Ukrainian and Belorussian would be able to assimilate Severian, Kyivan and Galichian cultures really fast.
Rusyn language should emerge based on Southwestern dialects inside Hungary.
If Russian, Ruthenian, Belorussian, Rusyn or Ukrainian cultures are not getting formed in the first 200 years than Novgorodian, Vladimirian, Severian, Kyivan and Galichian cultures should lose ability to assimilate each other fast and form these "mixed" cultures, because they sort of getting developed inside their own borders representing faster growing distinction from other Eastern European cultures.
P.S. maybe culture emergencies should be also based on religions. Though, I do not have any ideas how this would lool like other than "all orthodox -> Moscow" and "all catholics -> Warsaw".
 
I hope am not too late and Russia's Tinto maps is still reviewed, in any case I have noticed that the principality of Pskov has three locations that should belong to the Novgorod republic in 1337 (as well as a location border change).

Our problematic area.
IMG_20240710_130315.png


It is comprised of three locations (and parts of Gdov), Plyussa, Dubrovno and Porchov.
sketch-1720605386083.png



The porkhov location.
IMG_20240710_125127.jpg

IMG_20240710_125202.jpg


The Plyussa location.
IMG_20240710_125248.jpg

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And the Dubrovno location, which is almost identical with today's Strugi Krasnye administrate centre of Pskov oblast.
IMG_20240710_125525.jpg

IMG_20240710_125557.jpg


Here is the changes I propose for the Plyussa-Gdov border (with green are the locations who should be part of Novgorod).
sketch-1720605379184.png



An earlier historical map with more accurate borders for our principality.
Rus-1240-nevski.png


The EU4 provinces for Pskov principality were pretty accurate as well.
IMG_20240710_132310.jpg


If anyone has any suggestions or spotted any mistakes please let me know.
 
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I hope am not too late and Russia's Tinto maps is still reviewed, in any case I have noticed that the principality of Pskov has three locations that should belong to the Novgorod republic in 1337 (as well as a location border change).

Our problematic area.
View attachment 1161564

It is comprised of three locations (and parts of Gdov), Plyussa, the unreadable location and Porchov.
View attachment 1161565


The porkhov location.
View attachment 1161567
View attachment 1161569

The Plyussa location.
View attachment 1161571
View attachment 1161572

And the unreadable location is almost identical with today's Strugi Krasnye administrate centre of Pskov oblast.
View attachment 1161574
View attachment 1161575

Here is the changes I propose for the Plyussa-Gdov border (with green are the locations who should be part of Novgorod).
View attachment 1161578


An earlier historical map with more accurate borders for our principality.
View attachment 1161580

The EU4 provinces for Pskov principality were pretty accurate as well.
View attachment 1161585

If anyone has any suggestions or spotted any mistakes please let me know.
 
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Nice find, I think my maps depict more or less the borders of the principality no?
Approximately. most Russian maps depict the Pskov Republic more concisely than on tinto-maps
Porkhov - founded in 1346 by Novgorodians. And the territories to the north were most likely near Novgorod. and near Pskov.
Pskov officially became independent, and not a vassal of Novgorod, only in 1348.

The question of whether Pskov had access to the Baltic Sea is controversial
 

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Approximately. most Russian maps depict the Pskov Republic more concisely than on tinto-maps
Porkhov - founded in 1346 by Novgorodians. And the territories to the north were most likely near Novgorod. and near Pskov.
Pskov officially became independent, and not a vassal of Novgorod, only in 1348.

The question of whether Pskov had access to the Baltic Sea is controversial
Well they do show Pskov as a vassal of Novgorod at the start date (Pskov has a more light colour than Novgorod indicating that it's a vassal) so they are correct on the relation between the two states. I don't think I have ever seen Pskov depicted with access to the sea, I think what's more likely is that Pskov used Novgorodian ports for it's trade in the Baltic sea bypassing the need for ports.
 
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Well they do show Pskov as a vassal of Novgorod at the start date (Pskov has a more light colour than Novgorod indicating that it's a vassal). I don't think I have ever seen Pskov depicted with access to the sea, I think what's more likely is that Pskov used Novgorodian ports for it's trade in the Baltic sea.
The problem there is that Novgorod did not have ports in the full sense of the word.
Novgorod remained an extremely backward place in this sense.
Even stone fortresses (Koporye) were erected with great difficulty.
Cargo was transported by water to the sea and further to Livonia (both Russians and Germans). But there were no Ports. The first is not even a port, but a fortress controlling the mouth - Ivan-Gorod 1494.

It’s difficult with Pskov in 1337; he was no longer a de facto vassal of Novgorod.
in 1348 it was simply recognized by Novgorod.
 
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