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Tinto Maps #6 Great Britain & Ireland Feedback

9 September 2024 12 May 2025​


What an exciting week we have had, and best of all I finally get to say the name Europa Universalis V. It still feels weird in my mouth after carefully saying Caesar for what feels like a lifetime.

But lo, the day is finally come for the British Isles feedback thread. This short update was supposed to come out a few months ago, but I just had to teach some of you a lesson. Also I had a lot of other things on, like appearing in the announcement show last week.


Here we see the updated topography:

topography.jpg



The updated vegetation:
vegetation.jpg



Many impassable barriers have been added, for example the various peaks of the Pennines and the Wicklow Mountains. The Shannon also now poses a more significant barrier between east and west Ireland, with only a few crossing points often guarded by stockades.


Here we have the Locations map, bear in mind they are only showing the default English names but many places have Gaelic or Brythonic versions.

locations.jpg




Every country has had a general increase in density.

England, in particular the south, has had a big revamp at Location and Province level to more accurately reflect the historical counties, many of them pre-Norman in origin and many of them still in use today in some form. Westminster as a capital has been killed and rolled into a monolithic London.




Provinces:
provinces.jpg


Areas:

areas.jpg



And political mapmode (with overlord colouring off):
political.png




And Dynasties:
dynasty.jpg


We have added the Earldom of Orkney in the northern isles as a Norwegian vassal. Meanwhile the Palatinate of Durham and Chester have both been promoted from a special set of buildings to vassals under England. Wales has also been limited strictly to the Principality of Wales, with the marcher lords existing as very low control locations under England.

Ireland has had a major rework in terms of locations and tags. Mostly there have been minor Irish chieftaincies added. As always we are grateful to the many suggestions that have come from the forumers.



Culture:
culture.jpg



The most obvious culture change is that English has had Northumbrian split off, to represent the divide between southern and northern dialects and attitudes. A practical example of this is how in the south the English are more friendly to Normans, whereas the Northumbrians hate them (the northern shires still bear the scars of the Harrying of the North). Northumbrians and Scots also spoke a similar form of English in this period, so it helps to set them up as a sort of middleman.

Norwegians in northern Scotland and the nearby North Atlantic have also been split into Norn.


As a bonus, Court Language, showing 3 main worlds: Gaelic, Anglo-French, and Roman Catholic Bishoprics.

court_language.jpg



There have also been some changes to Raw Goods, as you can see here:

raw.jpg





We still have time to make some changes, so let us know what we can do to push this even further towards where it needs to be.

I won’t show Population numbers right now, as it’s pending a proper rework. Among other things, the idea is to reduce the population numbers in England.
 
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Couple things: Ards was only founded in 1608, the location needs to be renamed, and; County Londonderry was called County Coleraine before the rebuilding of Derry and the "province" should be named as such.
 
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Couple things: Ards was only founded in 1608, I suggest that the location be renamed to Strangford, and; County Londonderry was called County Coleraine before the rebuilding of Derry and the "province" should be named as such.
Strangford is actually on the Lecale peninsula, in the Downpatrick location. I'd call Newtownards "Movilla" (English) or "Maigh Bhile" (Irish) before settlement, after the abbey and settlement at the same site.
 
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Will there be some sort of event to change the trade good in Connemara (approx the province of Annaghdown) to Marble? It was quarried from neolithic times but major production/export only really began in the late 1700s


Did the quarrying of marble significantly alter Connemara’s economy? If not then it’d probably be better represented with maybe a province modifier, or just ignored.
 
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@SaintDaveUK Are there going to be any plans to represent the ancient road "The Ridgeway" running from Wiltshire to East Anglia? It is Britain's oldest road and one of the very few pre-Roman ones that still exists even today. Until the industrial revolution and it's canals, the Ridgeway was an important military and trade artery through the south of England.
 
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No list of changes like normal for these feedback posts?

Otherwise, great to see so many of our suggestions implemented! This is a much better representation now, I think. Perhaps could still use some more thought about the Marcher Lords though, unless there are some solid mechanics to handle them in a way other than being vassals...
 
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Hi, I have an ultimately fairly minor nitpick about the area/province/county borders in Wales that I would like to share
The borders of the Powys province presented here are deeply anachronistic, being invented pretty much wholesale in the 1970s for administrative convenience, but Wales is understandably not a priority for province distribution so I would not complain. However, of the three counties it is split into, 'Builth' stands out to me. While Builth was the largest marcher lordship in the given area, the powys borders used are historically split into 3 counties already, with the area categorised as 'Builth' already having a name, if mildly anachronistic at game start, which would be Radnorshire.

Builth was a major component of the depicted county at game start in 1337, but I do believe it would be more accurate to refer to it as either 'Radnoreshire' or, to fit in with the shortened forms used for Montgomery(shire) and Brecknock(shire), just 'Radnor'. The march of Radnor was not the largest like Builth was, but under the Laws of Wales Act of 1535 it is the shire name given, and is effectively the first name generalised out to refer to the entire area of the in game county, and was used for a larger proportion of the in game period.

If you're just naming the counties after the largest march in the area then that is understandable, and I would not begrudge you that, since it would be by far the easiest way to represent such a patchwork on the scale required for the game to work. I, personally, would merely prefer to use any possible later shire names were I to be doing it, and thought Id throw it out. :)
 
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Is there a reason why this was ignored?

It's explained in the comments of this post.
 
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Will we be able to merge the various Anglo cultures into one British culture like was shown off for the Russians, maybe not completely accurate to have the Scots, Anglo-Irish, Southerners and Northerners combined together but feels useful for game play purposes.

Also will Scots have an equivalent to Anglo-Irish to represent their Colonization efforts?

edit. feels weird to have have Northumbrians and English as 2 different cultures, wouldn't it make more sense to also rename Southern English to another name, though I suppose there isn't a great one other than Southerner
That's exactly why I think 'Unify Culture' is stupid. Implementing it makes it look like the English just needed to colonize the Irish MORE not less.
 
Regarding the court language, the de Burgh dynasty (Mayo and Clanricarde) should be switched to Gaelic (they were definitely Gaelicised by game start). Possibly some of the other Irish courts too, particularly in the south, but I’m not as sure about them.
 
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Why'd you disagree why me speculating on what culture groups Norn might be in? Sure it will be in the Scandinavian culture group, but it is a culture native to Scotland, shouldn't it also be a part of the Scottish culture group? And for that matter, the British group as well? And Icelandic, Faroese, and Norn are all insular Norse languages with much in common, why shouldn't they be their own culture group?

Also devs. what culture are the Faroe islands now? I presume they are also Norn, but we don't know.
The culture is not native to Scotland as it comes from Norway. It is not a Gaelic mix of Highland, Scots or Irish with Norwegian, just Norwegian. The reason I'm disagreeing with you is that Iceland, Faroese, Norn and Norwegian weren't separate languages in the 1300's. They were all grouped in what we in modern terms call Western Scandinavian which had branched off from Eastern Scandinavian which is Swedish, Gutnish and Danish. Scandinavian culture group should include all of these since the languages were mutually intelligible.

Icelandic should no doubt be its own culture in the 1300's, and had been their own "group" for centuries at this point. I do however disagree that Faroese, Shetland and Orkney's culture is separate from Norwegian at this time. Icelandic and the other isles being completely separate culture group in modern times wouldn't make much sense, and in the 13th hundreds you couldn't tell the difference between them really. The reason I say this is that Iceland had a fantastic literary and intellectual society that clearly differed from Norwegian. From reading thousand of pages of the Icelandic sagas, there is a clear distinction between the Icelanders and Norwegians. They spoke the same language, but they are categorized as different groups and Norwegians even had a slur for Icelanders, but I can't remember exactly what it was. This distinction is not there for the other Norse isles of Shetland, Orkney and the Faroe Islands. They are not seen in the sagas as a different group at all and one of Norway's greater kings Sverre Sigurdsson is from the Faroe Islands, and there is no discussion or even mention that he somehow is "foreign". Shetland is closer to Bergen the at the time biggest city in Norway, than it is to mainland Scotland, and people from these isles had positions in Norway's upper class such as a Shetlander named Gilbert became the bishop in Hamar in the middle of the 13 century. I gathered that this distinction has not happened yet from my reading of "Flateyjarbok" which was completed in 1394.

The reason Norn and Faroese becomes separate from Norwegian culture is that they were cut off from the Mainland. The Faroese lost much of their ties to Norway after the union with Denmark, and Orkney and Shetland got their own separate culture after the ties to Norway were cut with the pawning of the Isles to Scotland. If the Faroese were pawned off to Scotland they would likely be more aligned with Norn than having their own language that is separate from Norn and Norwegian and vice versa. I think that what would represent this culture shift best would be that Norn occurred after separation from Norway, but it is a very small part of history and it happens just a couple hundred years after the start, so I understand that Norn is represented from gamestart.

I did disagree mainly that these Isles which are Norwegian at the time should be put into a seperate culture group as I think they should just be Norwegian. (Except for Icelandic)


The Faroe Islands are norn in the game as of now from what I gathered from pausing at the right time on YouTube :p

Edit: Gutnish was a separate Germanic language from Eastern Scandinavian language of East Norse.
 
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@SaintDaveUK Are there going to be any plans to represent the ancient road "The Ridgeway" running from Wiltshire to East Anglia? It is Britain's oldest road and one of the very few pre-Roman ones that still exists even today. Until the industrial revolution and it's canals, the Ridgeway was an important military and trade artery through the south of England.
Post a ref and I'll see if I can add it.
 
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