Tinto Maps #6 Great Britain & Ireland Feedback

[phantasmAgaric]

I've got a more extensive list of little changes I'd like to see to Ireland, but I think I'll start with the little oversights that I don't think are subjective choices.

There's a few locations I've spotted that are named for geographical regions rather than settlements:

Fingal is not a town - I'd call the location either Malahide (Mullach Íde) or Swords (Sord).

Southern Armagh is named "Fews", which means "the Woods". This part of the county was a rural, rugged hinterland, which made it a useful border territory between the English Crown and the Ó Néill of Tyrone, but means that even today it has few settlements. My suggestion would be to split the County east-to-west, as it was for much of the period. In 1337, the Ó hAnluain were still the formidable Kings of Orior, with their power base at Loughgall/Loch gCál, north of Armagh in the Oneilland. Expansion by the Ó Néills would force them to retreat to Tanderagee/Tóin re Gaoith to the east. If you want to keep the Armagh polity as a fun theocratic playthrough, I'd split the county east to west, with an Armagh location including the Fews, and a Loughgall location including Oneilland and Orior. Alternatively, you could keep the locations more compact by adding the barony of Lower Orior to the Fews location and calling it Tanderagee.

Finally, not only is Carbery not a settlement, but it's in the wrong place: the region of Carbery is entirely within the Kilbrittain location. I'd rename the location Dunboy (Dún Baoi), after the fortress of the Ó Súileabháin Bhéara clan, destroyed in the 17th century. Alternatively it could be Castletownbere/Baile Chaisleáin Bhéarra, which survived but is also a bit of a mouthful.

 

[livebythecreed77]

It's explained in the comments of this post.

Gaelic culture instead of Irish

I believe that we shouldn't use Irish to represent the culture in Ireland in 1337. I do not think the name represents accurately who was living there. Here are my arguments as to why I think Gaelic is better. 1. It is what the people at the time...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Yeah that makes even less sense now with the Gaelic formable of an Ríocht na h'Éire or Ríocht of Éire. Why would "Irish" people not just form the Kingdom of Ireland if they are "Irish"? I agree with Ríocht of Éire being a different formable for the Gaelic people, so why not name the culture correctly as well.

Anglo-Norman lords called themselves "Irish" I see you disagreed with all my posts on the matter with the Earl of Desmond (One of the Anglo-Norman lords) Calling himself something distinctly different to the native Gaels (even though he could speak Gaeilge himself) And he called himself Irish (Éireannach) per the source I used. Why are we describing the people who lived here (The Gaels) something they didn't ascribe to themselves, because they would have used the term Gael, but what Anglo-Norman lords referred to themselves as? It seems incredibly backwards and makes little to no sense. You could also address any of the points made.

The point that SaintDave makes that:

Some good points, I find the idea that Irish could be a unification culture of native Gaelic and Hiberno-Norman especially interesting.

Our decision to use the name Irish for the native culture is because Gaelic is also used as a wider term that encompasses a spectrum of related cultures across Britain and Ireland, so IMO we lose a bit of precision if we rename Irish to Gaelic. Scottish Highland culture for example is also often referred to simply as "Gaelic".

Irish as a culture could make sense as a unification of Gaelic and Anglo-Norman, I actually agree with completely. Obviously this is not reflected in the feedback shown above however. I agree that all the peoples of Mannin and the Scottish Highlands would also refer themselves as Gaels so that is why I agree and advocate that Highland-Gael be the name of that culture. Just like Norse-Gael being a term I am perfectly okay with and makes total sense. And a unified Gaelic culture I think should just be Ard-Gael and that would also make perfect sense if you could unify the Highland Gaels and the Norse Gaels with the Gaels in Ireland.

Why is it that Norse-Gael gets to use the accurate term to describe the people that live there? Not the actual Gaels in Ireland that called themselves as such and where much of the culture itself actually originated.

 

[Martocticvs]

Post a ref and I'll see if I can add it.

The History of the Ridgeway, an ancient pathway

The ancient pathway called the ridgeway which goes from Avebury to tring through Oxfordshire and Wiltshire

www.historic-uk.com

This gives some good information about it. The Ridgeway is one part of a longer trackway, the part called the Ridgeway today runs along the northern edge of the North Wessex Downs (which you don't have represented in game at all) and through the Chiltern Hills.

 

[MurticusYurticus]

Post a ref and I'll see if I can add it.

If I posted references to Silver mining in Tipperary do you think it could be looked into?

Silvermines​

History of the mines and rehabilitation
Mining at Silvermines dates back as far as 1298 when Italian miners came in search of Silver. The Silvermines is unique amongst Irish Mines, not only because it contains Argentiferous Lead, but it also contains commercial quantities of Copper, Zinc, Barytes & Sulphur. The longevity of mining in the area has resulted in many mining features across the greater Silvermines area including open pits, undermined areas, waste dumps, tailings dam, shafts, adits and derelict surface structures. The last working mine (Baryte mine at Magcobar) was closed in 1993. The years following the closure were not without controversy. Cattle deaths as a result of lead poisoning, dust blows from the Tailings Management Facility and the possibility of a super dump all caused the local community to speak out and rally for the mining sites to be rehabilitated.

Tipperary County Council

Mining History

13th Century

Although no written records exist, apocryphal stories in later accounts suggest that silver was exploited in the area by the Danes in the 9th and 10th centuries.

In 1289 Italian miners from Genoa and Florence sponsored by the English Crown came to County Tipperary in search of silver [Gleeson (1937) cited in Cowman (1988)] and opened (re-opened?) a silver mine which they operated until 1303.


Eurogeologists.edu

 

[Rule Britannia]

Narrows mean that is can freeze, I think. Is that your intention?

Not in that climate if I understood it correctly, otherwise it would definitely be wrong to use it as the Straits of Dover would not freeze even during a harsh winter during the mini ice age

 

[Martocticvs]

Althouugh the Channel is pretty shallow, it also gets quite rough ("the chops of the Channel") and is not a good place to sail galleys, certainly not to enjoy any kind of tactical advantage vs a sailing ship except in calm conditions, so if that's the main use of the Inland Sea classification, I agree that it's not well suited there. Mind you, the Irish Sea is also well known to get rough, so why the different treatment there?

 

[phantasmAgaric]

If I posted references to Silver mining in Tipperary do you think it could be looked into?

I touched on this in a post on County Tipperary in the last thread here!

I still think my setup for Tipperary there would be a big improvement on the current setup: adding a Silvermines location allows a better division between the rugged, wooded uplands that were controlled by Gaelic clans, and the fertile, densely-populated lowlands of the Golden Vale that were the heartlands of the Butler dynasty. I really don't like how the current "Cashel" location doesn't even include Cashel. Birr should really be part of the Tipperary province and the Munster area too, and Clanwilliam need their rich lands in County Tipperary represented if they want a fighting chance in the currently-ongoing Burke Civil War.

My other suggestions in that comment persist too: in particular, Leix should really be independent of the Ossory rump state, and I think Fanad would be a fun addition as a playable army-based Gallowglass tag.

 

[Topias]

It's still a bit weird to see so much sparse vegetation here. I associate it with arctic tundras, bare mountains and hot drylands. There's no sparse vegetation at all in, say, Germany or Denmark. Maybe the British isles are more desolate than I realize.

 

[Rule Britannia]

The 1337 borders are too small to be a province in its own right. We could also destroy Middlesex and simply attach the city to some other province but I don't think that's very satisfying either.

I think the current solution is the best one possible. It would seem strange to attach London to another county and historically the urban area did spill into neighbouring counties such as e.g. Surrey.

 

[MurticusYurticus]

I touched on this in a post on County Tipperary in the last thread here!

I still think my setup for Tipperary there would be a big improvement on the current setup: adding a Silvermines location allows a better division between the rugged, wooded uplands that were controlled by Gaelic clans, and the fertile, densely-populated lowlands of the Golden Vale that were the heartlands of the Butler dynasty. I really don't like how the current "Cashel" location doesn't even include Cashel. Birr should really be part of the Tipperary province and the Munster area too, and Clanwilliam need their rich lands in County Tipperary represented if they want a fighting chance in the currently-ongoing Burke Civil War.

View attachment 1297097View attachment 1297098
My other suggestions in that comment persist too: in particular, Leix should really be independent of the Ossory rump state, and I think Fanad would be a fun addition as a playable army-based Gallowglass tag.

View attachment 1297114

I can forgive Cashel being a bit inaccurate tbh. We can't expect 1:1 accuracy always. But I would 100% prefer it if possible.

Agree on the terrain aspect of things too. Like wouldn't clonmel techincally be marshland? But other parts farmland?

 

[JamieDavies97]

How do you plan to balance the Hundred Years’ War if the population is reduced? France will have more than double the population of England and i’m a bit worried it might be a repeat of EU4 with France winning 99.99% of the time against England.

 

[NarcomancerPL]

Added dynasty map to main post.

View attachment 1296953

No dynasty in Scotland?

 

[riadach]

No dynasty in Scotland?

Regent

 

[AntarcticRanger]

The culture is not native to Scotland as it comes from Norway. It is not a Gaelic mix of Highland, Scots or Irish with Norwegian, just Norwegian. The reason I'm disagreeing with you is that Iceland, Faroese, Norn and Norwegian weren't separate languages in the 1300's. They were all grouped in what we in modern terms call Western Scandinavian which had branched off from Eastern Scandinavian which is Swedish, Gutnish and Danish. Scandinavian culture group should include all of these since the languages were mutually intelligible.

Icelandic should no doubt be its own culture in the 1300's, and had been their own "group" for centuries at this point. I do however disagree that Faroese, Shetland and Orkney's culture is separate from Norwegian at this time. Icelandic and the other isles being completely separate culture group in modern times wouldn't make much sense, and in the 13th hundreds you couldn't tell the difference between them really. The reason I say this is that Iceland had a fantastic literary and intellectual society that clearly differed from Norwegian. From reading thousand of pages of the Icelandic sagas, there is a clear distinction between the Icelanders and Norwegians. They spoke the same language, but they are categorized as different groups and Norwegians even had a slur for Icelanders, but I can't remember exactly what it was. This distinction is not there for the other Norse isles of Shetland, Orkney and the Faroe Islands. They are not seen in the sagas as a different group at all and one of Norway's greater kings Sverre Sigurdsson is from the Faroe Islands, and there is no discussion or even mention that he somehow is "foreign". Shetland is closer to Bergen the at the time biggest city in Norway, than it is to mainland Scotland, and people from these isles had positions in Norway's upper class such as a Shetlander named Gilbert became the bishop in Hamar in the middle of the 13 century. I gathered that this distinction has not happened yet from my reading of "Flateyjarbok" which was completed in 1394.

The reason Norn and Faroese becomes separate from Norwegian culture is that they were cut off from the Mainland. The Faroese lost much of their ties to Norway after the union with Denmark, and Orkney and Shetland got their own separate culture after the ties to Norway were cut with the pawning of the Isles to Scotland. If the Faroese were pawned off to Scotland they would likely be more aligned with Norn than having their own language that is separate from Norn and Norwegian and vice versa. I think that what would represent this culture shift best would be that Norn occurred after separation from Norway, but it is a very small part of history and it happens just a couple hundred years after the start, so I understand that Norn is represented from gamestart.

I did disagree mainly that these Isles which are Norwegian at the time should be put into a seperate culture group as I think they should just be Norwegian. (Except for Icelandic)


The Faroe Islands are norn in the game as of now from what I gathered from pausing at the right time on YouTube

I'm not arguing that Norn or Icelandic shouldn't be in the Scandinavian culture group, I am speculating what additional culture groups would make sense. It does sound like a west norse group would make more sense than a insular norse group, and than even that doesn't really seem necessary (although I personally do still like the idea), so I'll drop that. Thanks for the info btw.

As to the Norn not being native, well they are about as native as the Gaelic or the Anglo-Saxon people of Scotland, aren't they? All of the cultures of Scotland at game start are younger than a millennium, the last culture older than that being the recently dead Cumbrian. Does being a little younger than the Scots and the Highlanders really make them less native? Or are you arguing they are less native because they have diverged from Norway less than the Scottish Gaels and the Irish Gaels have diverged?

Also I think Norway's different opinions on Norn and Icelandic can probably be simulated via the cultural opinion mechanic?

I knew I should have checked the youtube videos, remembering that we have all that footage is hard. Thank you!

 

[Sulphurologist]

Topographic review
The last one! I think...
Suggestions:

• There are currently too many hills, as slight rolling hills have been upgraded to full hills.
  • As discussed in previous iterations, this is conflicting with the how the rest of the world map was handled: rolling hills are to be downscaled as flatlands everywhere.
• Where hills are present as specks within areas of rolling hills, they should remain hills (like in Wales)
  
  
• More/different mountain setup for Caledonia
• A lot less hills for Ireland and some switched wetlands
• East Anglia's wetlandswere never thát extensive
  • Norwich only has wetlands along the Yare river
  • Yarmouth has several smaller patches of wetlands, so can remain as such
• Several natural wastelands should be crossable and be removed from the impassables, while others need to appear:
  • Southern Wales (Swansea-Caerphilly) should be more open
  • Snowdonia needs mountain locations and a crossable marshland
    • current shape only emulates the interior basin
  • Peak district, while hilly, is far from impassable between Manchester-Leeds.
    • The most rugged part of the district is between Manchester and Sheffield, so maybe keep it at Manchester-Huddersfield,
  • Yorkshire Dales have plenty of accessible paths and roads (Skipton-Richmond-Ripon)
  • North Pennines have been drawn very awkwardly.
    • the axis Carlisle-Bellingham is in reality flatlands
    • a ridge between Penrith and Hexham+Darlington would suit the actual Pennines shape better.
  • The Lake District is entirely absent in terms of topography. One more location here with mountain terrain would do nicely.
  • Move the Urquhart-Lochaber impassable to Ardtornish-Gairloch instead
    • All roads and paths go via the Great Glen
    • move the crossing to Skye to Garlioch
  • Remove the Dingwall-Gailoch impassable (no particular barrier here in that direction IRL)

Thoughts on potential namechanges:

• Isn't Huddersfield situated within the location of Leeds? (Is Sheffield not an option instead?)

Spoiler: Erratum

Dumbarton should be hills (Ben Lomond, etc)

My suggestions visualised:

Current topography	Suggested Topography	Changelog of suggestions

Elevation sources used:

Terrain Ruggedness Index	Digital Elevation (0-2500 m)

Wetland resources visualised:

Peat presence acccording to surveys: - Ireland - Scotland	Estimated Area% of peatlands (PeatML)	Type of Wetland, regardless of area% (GLWD)

Ranking wool quality:

1. the wool from Western England, adjacent to wales, were renowned for the highest quality wool. (The Flemish paid great money for that wool)
2. in second place, East Anglia had a high, above-standard quality
3. everything else is to be considered average (but the average English wool was still better than most)
4. by far the worst was northern Lincolnshire wool. It was reserved for the cheapest of cloth products.

An additional thought:
- maybe reshuffle some wool/wheat locations based on the soil fertility map mode?

RGO map	Soil fertility	Anthromes 1300 AD (HYDE 3.3)

 

[Bergenboy]

I'm not arguing that Norn or Icelandic shouldn't be in the Scandinavian culture group, I am speculating what additional culture groups would make sense. It does sound like a west norse group would make more sense than a insular norse group, and than even that doesn't really seem necessary (although I personally do still like the idea), so I'll drop that. Thanks for the info btw.

As to the Norn not being native, well they are about as native as the Gaelic or the Anglo-Saxon people of Scotland, aren't they? All of the cultures of Scotland at game start are younger than a millennium, the last culture older than that being the recently dead Cumbrian. Does being a little younger than the Scots and the Highlanders really make them less native? Or are you arguing they are less native because they have diverged from Norway less than the Scottish Gaels and the Irish Gaels have diverged?

Also I think Norway's different opinions on Norn and Icelandic can probably be simulated via the cultural opinion mechanic?

I knew I should have checked the youtube videos, remembering that we have all that footage is hard. Thank you!

I thought you meant that Norn should be in a culture group with Scots, Highlander, etc. That is what I disagreed with, but they yes I would say they are native to Orkney and Shetland. And for the different opinions on Norn and Icelandic I meant that they shouldn't have a cultural opinion on them as I believe they should be Norwegian at game start, except for Icelandic of course.

 

[oli blaster]

The map looks great, I just wish Wakefield had its own location considering it's significance in both the war of the roses and English civil war.

Has quite a history of coal mining around this period too.

Ah well, keep up the good work

 

[Antor Seax]

Finally - in the English names location and provinces map, I am unsure how I feel about "Derry" when the English name was and continues to officially be Londonderry. It would make absolute sense that when taken by the English it would be named appropriately as it was in the real timeline to Londonderry in 1613. In fact it could lead to some cool events utilising the burghers to invest a sizeable amount into the development of the province, specifically as a port. The city of London crest can still be seen all around the city to this day, and it is one of the oldest and best surviving intact city walls in the UK and Europe. I think for historical accuracy, as well as flavour, a lot more could be done here.

I agree, there's so good flavour to be had here.

Derry was burned down during the Nine Years' War and then rebuilt during the reign of James I with funding from London merchants; which is why it's now, officially, called Londonderry - same for the county being County Londonderry instead of County Coleraine.

So there should be a flavour event or decision for the English/Kingdom of Ireland that builds a fort and cathedral (world's first Protestant cathedral) there at some point.

Perhaps it could happen in any Irish locations, and we can get Londonkilkenny or Londoncork.

 

[phantasmAgaric]

For everyone suggesting that the province and area maps in Ireland should match the modern counties and four provinces exactly: please keep in mind that the specific boundaries were divisions established by the English monarchy in the 16th and even 17th centuries as they centralised Ireland under their direct control. Before this, most English counties mapped almost exactly onto historical and long-standing Irish political boundaries, as the Anglo-Norman conquest found it far easiest to administer and conduct diplomacy with the Irish on terms they understood.

In 1337, Breifne was a geographic region understood by both the English and Irish as "the rough third of Connacht", and the clans leading the eastern and western halves both saw themselves as rightful owners of the whole thing - and the Ó Conors of Connacht saw both as his rightful subjects.

Modern County Louth was known as County Uriel at the time, and had an indefinite northern boundary, theoretically including the whole kingdom of Airgíalla. Modern County Armagh and Monaghan were just parts of Uriel/Airgíalla England couldn't control.

If anything, there are many cases where the province setup for Ireland is already too modern: County Wicklow was the last county established, in 1606. Until then it was administered (or not administered) as part of County Dublin, which really shouldn't include Navan (one of, if not the most important town in the Liberty of Meath) and Drogheda (which should be in Uriel). Additionally, the Offaly province really should be split entirely, given that it's essentially a wastebasket taxon put together out of border territories explicitly for colonial settlement. Birr was the northernmost town in Munster for the Irish, and rightfully part of County Tipperary for the English. Likewise, Upper Ossory - western Queen's County, only nostalgically renamed Laois on independence - was simply the part of the County/Kingdom of Ossory (later Kilkenny) that the English couldn't control. Dunamase and Daingean were until very recently forts of the Earl of Kildare, and long-standing parts of Leinster for the Irish, and Tullamore was held by the last relatives of the Kings of Meath the English couldn't conquer.

I've put together a quick visual representation of the changes I think make sense to Ireland's provinces, with the white lines and pluses indicating additions from one province to another.

As mentioned earlier: Offaly is a really anachronistic term for the Irish midlands, and it would make far more historical sense to distribute it among the neighbouring provinces, as it wasn't conceived of a single region.

In Leinster, I've also grouped Carlow with Wexford rather than Kilkenny, as County Carlow at this time legally included the Ferns location in game. This also lets us have a more accurate Kilkenny/Ossory province. I'd also really split the Kilkenny location in half: at this time it was the most densely-populated part of Ireland, and it's weirdly large compared to other locations surrounding it. Adding a Gowran location in the southeast of the province would allow the representation of this better, and let Kilkenny itself be a fertile flatland province. Gowran would also be the seat of the Butlers of Ormond within a few decades once they were booted out of Nenagh by the Ó Cinnéides.

Dublin is really awkwardly-represented too, presumably representing the Pale rather than the county at the time, which again included modern County Wicklow. This is anachronistic, as those specific borders would only come together in the Tudor period, and even then would include towns like Trim, Kells, and Naas which haven't been included. I'd keep it simple, giving Navan back to Meath and Drogheda to Oriel.

I've also slightly rearranged the locations here, as Drogheda was essentially entirely inside County Meath. This rearrangement gives the proper county borders back, and also lets you represent the off-and-on division of the county into the Liberties of Trim and Meath. If this makes the province too large, you can split it either along the modern Meath-Westmeath boundaries, or the western border of the Liberty of Trim, as indicated with a dotted line.

As for Munster - Limerick was one of Ireland's most densely populated and richest counties at this time, and Kerry was a relative backwater - grouping the two is fine, but you've got to call it Limerick if you do. The addition of the Iveragh peninsula and Killarney to Kerry is a much more recent addition to counterbalance this, and would only happen when the Mac Carthaigh Mórs finally fell at the end of the 16th century, before which it was theoretically part of County Cork. Representing this makes the already-big Cork absolutely massive, so you could just split off the Gaelic-controlled locations as either "Desmond" or "West Cork".

Connacht is absolutely perfect - no amendments whatsoever! Ulster is honestly a massive headache and I have a couple potential proposals for it, but regardless I don't think any solution with a 17th century-era County Londonderry is the way to go. I'll make another post with a few options in a bit.

 

[Antor Seax]

I'm not convinced that Northumbrian should be a culture.