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Hello and welcome to another issue of our Tinto Flavour. Today we will take a look at the lands of Korea and Manchuria. Let’s start first with Korea, or at this point in time, the Kingdom of Goryeo:
After the national unification achieved by the Goryeo dynasty, the glorious formation of the eponym Kingdom of Goryeo brought a golden period of prosperity and unprecedented unity to its people.
Even after bending to Emperor Borjigin Kublai, Goryeo continues to be an important power, both because of its highly educated population and its powerful navy.
Now the winds of change are blowing, as the corruption of the Buddhist ideals and the revolutionizing ideas of Neo-Confucianism are changing minds all over the country. Will Goryeo transform into the strongest soldier in Yuán's army, or will it break free from those shackles and dictate its future?
There are some events related to the relationship between Korea and China:
And of course also an event for the rise of Joseon:
We could choose to condemn them to a life of rebellion, or to accept the rise of a new dynasty, giving a new name and flag:
And of course there are many other interesting historical events:
Let us move now to Manchuria and the Jurchen tribes.
The Jurchen people inhabit Manchuria and are divided in diverse groups, including the Jianzhou, Haixi, and Wild Jurchens, that have different lifestyles —some are hunter-gatherers, other pastoralists, but mostly sedentary agriculturists.
Chinese officials have divided the Jurchen based on proximity and characteristics. Jianzhou Jurchens, near Mudan River, have adopted Chinese habits; Haixi Jurchens have nomadic and sedentary tribes along the Haixi River; and Yeren or Wild Jurchens, in sparsely populated north Manchuria, rely on hunting and agriculture.
Influenced by neighboring dynasties, the Jurchen have chiefs paying tribute to hold nominal posts as commanders of border guards.
Traditionally, Jurchen have been divided into three types, and this is represented with three different government reforms:
They have some advances available to all of them:
Another mechanic available to them is the a special type of International Organization called Jurchen Confederation, representing a somewhat banding together of different tribes responding to a single authority on certain matters while still maintaining total autonomy in most. At start, there are three Jurchen Confederations present: the Jianzhou, Hūlun, and Changbaishan.
Jurchen Confederations have laws, with some of them centered around the structures and operations of the confederation itself on an internal level, and also others that deal with how the confederation interacts with the outside world.
There are more laws in the confederations, not just these three.
As one would expect, unifying all the Jurchen tribes will lead to the possibility of forming a new identity:
When formed, it will trigger the following event, with an option to choose the name for the country:
And of course, when managing to conquer China you’ll get another event for the option of proclaiming a new dynasty:
And that is all for today, although there is much more in the game for you to discover. We'll be back tomorrow talking about the mechanics of Shintō and the Shogunate, see you then.
I would move the model to the left as the focus of the background images tend to be in the middle.
Another option would be to move it into the first text box
What does this courtier have to do with the event. Does this even need a model?
I do like including the estate icons, even more so when the estate name is 'flavorized', but you either have to reduce its height or allow it to encroach into the next line. Having a variable line spacings make work that looks unprofessional and shoddy.
Does it make sense to show the location names withing this map? (I realize it is not at all zoom levels)
Would it make more sense to have one map-mode for all Jurchen Confederations instead of multiple? This would help with the seeing the bigger picture between the confederations. (Obviously they all would need different color schemes.
Here, I agree with having the line that normally indicated the current policy and effects indicating that no policy has been chosen (i.e. this isn't a 'don't show empty lists' issue.
I am assuming the No Embassies is different than no active policy
Can you go from a policy back to none?
move the classification into the sub-title instead of using a complete line
'Formable Country | Tier III'
Am I wrong in assuming that 'The Later Jin' has a tooltip that indicates what the event does? Or do I need to pause the game and look in the wiki?
You mentioned that there are more requirements than just the locations, why are they not listed (I believe it was culture group)?
Can we get a count of how many we do own listed?
Hope this was useful.
So is there any hope that we will get a TT about the UI/UX? Preferably at a point where you are talking about what you are doing, not explaining what you have done? i.e. when suggestions are still actionable.
until 20 century, chinese is the literacual language of korea(after japan forced them to teach hangul other than chinese in the school), or just i missed the meaning of literacual language?
Once you form the Manchu tag in-game, shouldn’t the Jurchen culture also be renamed to Manchu?
It probably should.
Historically, the people we now call Manchus were originally known as Jurchens (女真), a name that went back to their earlier states under the Liao and Jin dynasties. But this name carried baggage (political, cultural, and psychological) that their leaders consciously wanted to move past.
The term 女真 (nǚzhēn) is a Chinese transcription of the Jurchens’ own ethnonym, probably pronounced something like jušen in their Tungusic language. However, the characters used—女 (woman) and 真 (true/pure)—may have unintentionally reinforced a troubling image in Chinese eyes. Some Qing sources later even commented on how odd or humiliating the name appeared in retrospect. While the term wasn't meant to mean “pure women,” that is how it looked when written in Chinese—and may have contributed to the sense that the name no longer represented a proud, powerful people.
More seriously, the name was associated with a long history of subordination to outside powers. Under both the Khitan Liao and Mongol Yuan, Jurchens were seen as a subject people. One particularly humiliating custom was that Jurchen villages were expected to "offer" unmarried women (often the daughters of common households, sometimes of more prominent families) to visiting envoys or officials. This wasn’t necessarily a voluntary practice, but part of what was seen as tribute or duty. While such customs might have once been rationalized as hospitality, they were resented by the Jurchens themselves, especially when they involved coercion or disregard for family dignity.
By the late 16th century, when Nurhaci began his unification of the Jurchen tribes, these historical associations were still alive in the collective memory. The Jurchen name wasn’t just old, it was loaded with the memory of disunity, external domination, and cultural humiliation. So while he initially used "Jurchen" in his diplomatic correspondence with the Ming (likely to preserve recognition), he and his successors began to develop a new identity.
In 1635, under Hong Taiji, they officially renamed their people to "Manchu" (滿洲). The reasons weren’t just cosmetic. The name change was a deliberate rebranding of an entire ethnic and political identity. As historian Pamela Crossley argues, this was part of a broader campaign to elevate the Manchu people as rightful, sophisticated, and morally legitimate rulers of China—equal to, and in some respects surpassing, the Han Chinese elite in statecraft, military prowess, and ideological clarity. Renaming the culture wasn’t about abandoning their heritage—it was about claiming a future that didn’t define them by past humiliation.
So when you form Manchu in-game, it isn’t just a flag or a tag change—it represents a major ideological and civilizational shift. Renaming the Jurchen culture to Manchu would better reflect the real-world assertion of parity with the Ming, and the emergence of a new imperial identity that will soon dominate all of China.
The book of Pamela Crossley is full of bullshit, and anyone who knew much in it can find lots of amusement from this book, like in this website: https://book.douban.com/review/16680227/
Fully agree. It was literally banned later, because the peasantry became too literate, placing legitimacy of nobility in a bad position. Avoiding that, Korean king, under pressure of yangban, banned it.
I recommend instead of flat bonus, create access to law or policy "Hangeul", that definitely should decrease satisfaction of yangban clans and drastically increase overall literacy. (maybe decrease sinization?)
I prefer the Korean translation, which is wild:
"I am not close to my friends, I am a relative of my friends.什么。I heard about my country and my country came out a year ago."
I prefer the Korean translation, which is wild:
"I am not close to my friends, I am a relative of my friends.什么。I heard about my country and my country came out a year ago."
The book of Pamela Crossley is full of bullshit, and anyone who knew much in it can find lots of amusement from this book, like in this website: https://book.douban.com/review/16680227/
I literally just copied the conversation I had with my professor, in China a few years ago, a Chinese person who has a doctorate, into ChatGPT to translate and reword it for this post... My god man. I don't have a Mongolian horse in this fight. I'm just suggesting that if they change the adjective from Jurchen to Manchu they should also maybe change the culture's name, as the name did change historically, regardless of the motivation. I just shared a single interpretation I knew of to provide some background.
Your discrimination against the Korean people is disgusting. You should die under the atomic bomb.
Cosy up with your beloved Shōwa-period Nazi forefathers！
Foolish fool, you should be grateful to live in China. In any other place, you'd be executed on the spot.
Why hasn't the moderator dealt with this guy yet? He deserves a permanent ban.
It's an ability to increase your cultural strength. I believe it's unlocked in the Renaissance in europe. Thus by researching this advance (if it's not unlocked at game start), you'll get much earlier as Korea
I do believe it cost gold - but you can check it out in the DD (or flavour?) on art and culture
I literally just copied the conversation I had with my professor, in China a few years ago, a Chinese person who has a doctorate, into ChatGPT to translate and reword it for this post... My god man. I don't have a Mongolian horse in this fight. I'm just suggesting that if they change the adjective from Jurchen to Manchu they should also maybe change the culture's name, as the name did change historically, regardless of the motivation. I just shared a single interpretation I knew of to provide some background.
Forming the Manchu doesn't mean they became a new country. As written in my previous post, being Manchu accepted more cultures than Jurchens. Historically, becoming Manchu and proclaiming the Jin State were two different events: 1. Later, the Jin was established in 1616; 2. The reform into Manchu was in 1635. I am quite tired of explaining that there was never a Manchurian state in history. Even for Manchukuo, the name in Manchu was just Manju Gurun, Manchu State, rather than Manchuria.
Manchu or Jurchen
I think people clearly had some confusion between Manchu and Jurchen. To a greater extent, the definition of Manchu was ambiguous due to its brief history and complex nature. Emperor Kangxi used to list 66 clans that honored the name of Manchu and attempted to provide a detailed definition of the Manchu people. I drew a map of these 66 clans, but I was unable to find the locations for each of them. The points represented "what is Manchu" according to the emperor, and the circle below showed what Manchu thought "where they unified Jurchen." Many of these clans occupied multiple locations, such as Hurka (Nanai) and Sahalca (Daur), and the imperial categories are de facto not entirely accurate, as they encompass many aimans (multiple clans under a single name).
View attachment 1311649
I also made the map describing the local placenames and known clans.
I made a line between nomadic and settled people based on different evidence: for the north of the Amur, Soviet used to find Mongolic relic in the Zeya basin; for Sunggari basin, the placenames tell who had these places; in the south of the Sunggari, the Willow Palisade was the historical between steppe-like Mongolia and mountainous Manchuria.
Japanese scholar Korehiro Anami noted that three main tribal groups lived along the upper Amur (Heilongjiang): the Hurha, Saharcha (Mongolic Daurs), and Solon (Evenki). Because of Solon's military strength, neighboring groups often adopted their name.
Hurha lived closest to Qing power, southeast of Heilongjiang City (Aigun).
Saharcha (Daurs) lived to the north, from near Heilongjiang City to the Zeya River.
Solon lived the farthest north, along the Amur from north of Esuri (额苏里屯; in Mohe and Emuer) to Albazin (Yakesa).
Hurha and Weji were two major groups in the pre-Qing Manchuria: Hurha originated from the Hurha River (Hurga or Mudan River), and occupied land along the lower Sunggari, mid-Amur, Ussuri, and part of the lower Amur basins; Weji (or the alternative form Udihe) was frequently mentioned for its matrilineality and uncivilized lifestyle, with many states named Weji in history, and even recorded before the name of Jurchen, as early as the 5th century, while the name Jurchen was only recorded unti the 7th century.
View attachment 1311658 Placenames View attachment 1311706 View attachment 1311711 Cultures Hurga: Ducher or Jurchen I realize that Russians often cited their account of the Ducher people, but it did not equal any race described by the Manchu. According to Wikipedia, the Russian source claimed that Aigun was originally a Ducher settlement, which is unusual since the people of Aigun were unaware of this. Most people believed Aigun was a Daur city. According to the citation of Korehiro Anami from the previous section, Duchers were identical to the Hurka clan of Jurchen. Additionally, I found on Ukrainian Wikipedia about three so-called Ducher dialects - Butege, Kvikvihar, and Khinyang - i.e., Buteha, Qiqihar, and Shenyang (Simyang), which are three major Manchu cities. It is clear enough that the Duchers were Jurchen, specifically Manchu banners sent from Buteha, Qiqihar, and Shenyang. Both Hurka and Manchu were from Hurga.
The Hurga people were widely distributed, with various branches found in the Amur, Suifun, and Ussuri basins, as well as the Eastern seashore, along the waterbodies, which won them the name of Shuidada (水达达; lit. water Tartar) and Jiangyi (江夷; lit. river barbarian) in the Yuan and Ming Dynasties. Their origin traces back to the Heishui Mohe (黑水靺鞨; Amur Jurchen, as referred to by the Russians), who lived in the lower reaches of the Hurga and Amur rivers. According to Ming scholars, Hurga had a deeper connection with the Bohai State, as they lived in the heartland of Bohai, specifically in the Hurga Valley. During the Liao dynasty, they formed the Five Nations Confederation (五国部; Wuguobu) centered around Ilan Hala, with their core territory extending from Ilan Hala in the west to Boli in the east. By the Yuan dynasty, this evolved into the administrative units of Hurga, Ton, Odoli, Wanlin, and Bugu Tumens, which would later become the direct origin of the Manchus and Nanais (Unlike Ulch nicknamed as Longhaired, Hurka Nanai was nicknamed shorthaired because Nurgaci ordered their obedience of Manchu custom).
Udihe: The Weji State The Udihe established the Weji State and was first known by the Chinese in the 460s as Wuji (勿吉), much earlier than the naming of "Jurchen" in the 9th century. The word "Udihe" is derived from "Weji", meaning "forest" in Jurchen, as their people lived in the forest. In Jurchen traditions, people could escape from their crimes and misbehaviors by hiding in the forest and avoiding contact with civilization; thus, Udihe means "uncivilized, wild men" in Jurchen. In fact, the Weji people called themselves "bigan niyalma", literally meaning "field/wilderness people", which is translated into Chinese as Yeren. In the Qing Dynasty, they were known as the Donghai Jurchen, under the command of the Ningguta generals.
The Udihe people mainly reside in the dense forests surrounding the Sikhote-Alin Mountains in the eastern Manchurian Plain. There are also Bala communities in the Changbai Mountain region and the Zhangguangcai Range, though the relationship between the Bala language and Udihe remains uncertain. However, both languages show less contact with Chinese compared to Manchu-Nanai languages and exhibit greater similarities with Northern Tungusic languages. Additionally, there could be a significant presence of Udihe in the Hulan basin and Hinggan Mountains; the Hulan basin was the base of Wuzhe (Weji) Weisuo in the early Ming Dynasty, while the nearby Hinggan Mountains were known as Hulan mountains at that time, with a possible link with Solons and Evenki.
Jurchen/Haisi: Wanggiyan Family Ties
Hanpu (函普) from Korea became the leader of the Wanggiyan clan in the 10th century. He and his brothers led the Wanggiyan clan to three settlements: Changbai Mountains in the south, Anchegu Basin (Alcuka) in the north, and Yaran Coast in the east. Under the leadership of the Wanggiyan family, Jurchens formed the first confederation during the regime of Wugunai over Wanggiyan subjects of Baishan, Yehui, Yaran, Tumen, and Tugunlun, as the overlord over Wuguobu (Hurga). Later, this coalition overthrew the Khitans and established the new Jin Dynasty. In the early Jin Dynasty, the distribution of Jurchen was concentrated in an area named Jinyuan Neidi (金源内地; lit. origin and homeland of Jin Dynasty), which covered the circuit of Shangjing and extended southward to Dongjing (Liaoyang) and Xianping, while ten noble families, including Wanggiyan, constituted the endogamic political caucus of the government.
Haisi, lit. West of the sea refers to an area in the west bank of the Sunggari; however, in Ming Dynasty, this term was for almost all the Jurchens in the west of Donghai Jurchen, particular the Hulan clans around the great bend of the Sunggari (see Boduna) and Shangjing, which Ming scholars claimed as the direct heir of Jin Dynasty Wanggiyan family, the noblest among Jurchen; thus, their language was considered the standard Jurchen and their status was more superior to Jianzhou in the Ming Dynasty. Haisi was known for its significance in Tributary Trade, and Hulan controlled the bend of the Sunggari and the entrance to the Ming Dynasty from Manchuria. The ruling Nara family proclaimed themselves as the descendants of the imperial Wanggiyan family and was dedicated to uniting Jurchens and restoring the Jin Empire for centuries. To prevent the Jurchen unification, the Ming assigned similar titles to multiple Haisi clans under the Nara family. For example, Jianzhou was granted the same status as titles from the Ming Dynasty.
Daur/Evenki/Oroqen: Solons Daurs were the earliest settlers in the Zeya basin, according to archaeological evidence. They lived along the upper Amur Valley, from its sources in Mongolia to the Zeya Valley, where they met the strong Hurka/Nanai people, who later became the Manchu. The Daurs were believed to be the descendants of the Kitan, with some habits similar to those of the Khitans, such as bird-raising, hunting, and horse techniques. Evenki were originally Uriankhai living in the forest around Lake Baikal. Around the 13th century, the Mongols attacked them, prompting the Evenki to begin migrating out of Mongolia. In 1207, Jochi was sent by Chinggis Khan to conquer the Uriankhai. In 1235, the Mongols established their administration in the Uriankhai region. Thus, many Evenki left their home and moved eastward, living with the Daurs.
Traditionally, the Daur-Evenki population was referred to as Solon, centered in Yekesa (Albazino), during the Qing Dynasty. "Solon" is an honorable title given by the Manchu for their fierceness on the battlefield. By the 14th century, they were still Evenki. In the 17th century, as Russia expanded into the Amur region, the Qing government relocated the Solons from their home along the Amur to the Non basin, which the Hulan Udihe people previously inhabited. Anthropologically, the three peoples form a single kin network: the Daur share key maternal (mitochondrial) lineages and origin tales with the Evenk, so they are the Evenk's "maternal cousins," while the Oroqen share core paternal lineages, clan names, and origin myths with the Evenk, making them the Evenk's "paternal cousins"; taken together, these crisscrossing maternal and paternal ties link Daur, Evenk, and Oroqen into a broader family, even as each group maintains its distinct language, culture, and identity.
Although Solons were the largest group of this population, there were also Khamnigan, raising horses and living in the north of Mongolia, and Oroqen, who originally lived in the Lena basin and raised deer there. Solons were a settled population that built cities like Yakesa, Asajin, Dochen, Ukur, and Dojin, among others.
States and SoPs
Render it with Yuan Dynasty Administration Division (Redlined) and Ming Dynasty Weisuo System (in Blue), along with proposed Evenki (in Green) (example categorization)
Shuidada Circuit - Water Tartar Circuit (example, TBD)
View attachment 1311647 Trade Kaiyuan: Horse Market The Kaiyuan Horse Market (开原马市), founded in 1406 under the Yongle Emperor, was the Ming dynasty's principal licensed frontier bazaar in Liaodong, where imperial agents bought war-horses from Mongol and Jurchen herders and, in exchange, sold salt, ironware, cotton cloth, tea, and cash coins. As trade flourished, the single fair expanded into the “Four Passes, Four Markets” system—Guangshun, Zhenbei, Xin'an, and Qinghe gateways encircling Kaiyuan garrison, which also hosted thriving private stalls dealing in furs, ginseng, pine nuts, and other Northeast specialties. The market became a diplomatic valve, allowing steppe groups to profit from regulated commerce while sparing them the long tribute journey to Beijing. It allowed the Ming to reward or penalize neighboring tribes and integrate newcomers who settled around the fortress. By the late fifteenth century, Kaiyuan's traffic had turned the surrounding Sanwan Guard into one of China's three biggest iron-smelting centres, and for over two centuries the fair remained a nerve-centre of Sino-Mongol-Jurchen exchange until Manchu expansion rerouted the region’s trade networks in the early seventeenth century. View attachment 1311749
Nurgan/Deren: Santan Trade
During Japan's Edo period, the Santan trade (山丹交易, Santan kōeki) connected the Matsumae domain in Hokkaidō with the "Santan people” of the lower Amur and Sakhalin—mainly Ulchi and Nivkh groups—through Ainu middlemen: Ainu hunters first exchanged Japanese iron tools, rice, sake, and cotton for Qing tribute items that Santan chiefs had received (silk brocade known as Ezo-nishiki, glass beads, jade plaques, feathered garments, copper coins, sable pelts, etc.), then carried those luxury goods south to sell in Matsumae.
Under the shogunate's sakoku policy, this route was one of only four licensed "trade mouths" (alongside Nagasaki-Dutch/Chinese, Tsushima-Korean, and Satsuma-Ryūkyū commerce), and it enriched the domain and private merchants such as Zeniya Gohei while funnelling rare Amur-basin products into Japan; the network declined in the mid-nineteenth century as Russian expansion and Meiji frontier reforms disrupted Ainu and Santan exchange patterns.
"그런 가운데 원이 1345년 편찬한 <송사(宋史)>에 고려 인구가 210만 명이란 기사가 전한다. 아마도 위와 같은 경과로 원이 알게 된 대강의 수가 아닐까 여겨진다. 이에 근거해 고려사 연구를 대표하는 박용운 교수는 원이 고려를 침공하기 이전인 12세기의 인구를 250만∼300만 명으로 추산했다."
"Meanwhile, the Song History compiled by Yuan in 1345 states that the population of Goryeo was 2.1 million. This figure was probably obtained by Yuan through the process described above. Based on this, Professor Park Yong-woon, a leading scholar of Goryeo history, estimated the population of Goryeo in the 12th century, before the Yuan invasion, to be between 2.5 and 3 million."
Even those figures are estimates of the population prior to the Yuan-Goryeo War, which is even further in the past than the present.
And the article estimating the population of Goryeo in "Song History" is also just an estimate by an official in the Song envoy's entourage, saying something like, "I think the population of Goryeo is about this much."
While I believe you, can I see the source regarding the last claim that it was just an estimate from a Song visitor? I tried looking for it in the article but couldn't find it.
Fully agree. It was literally banned later, because the peasantry became too literate, placing legitimacy of nobility in a bad position. Avoiding that, Korean king, under pressure of yangban, banned it.
I recommend instead of flat bonus, create access to law or policy "Hangeul", that definitely should decrease satisfaction of yangban clans and drastically increase overall literacy. (maybe decrease sinization?)
I'd really like to know where this rumour comes from, because it's about as nonsense as it's sensational - the idea that it was banned "because peasants became too literate" (implied that they would instigate a revolution due to that) sounds like it's made up in the 20th century.
Modern public schooling is a prerequisite for general literacy, regardless of how easy and nice a writing system is to learn.
There was in total a one-time Hangul ban, by Yeonsangun in 1504, importantly - as part of his general crackdown on literary writing as a whole. Yeonsangun banned Hangul in 1504 precisely because of anonymous posters and leaflets making fun of him and criticizing his tyrannical rule were being written and circulated in Hangul in front of the palace gate. It lasted a total of 2 years, after which it was rescinded.
The Sillok states in Yeonsangun 10th year, 7th month, 29th day (1504) that he got really angry after discovering the posters and ordered to find the responsible culprits.
Yeonsangun Ilgi, Volume 56, Year 10 (1504), 12th month, 24th day (庚寅/gyeongin) on the contents of the royal decree explicitly states that because "ignorant people" (어리석은 백성, eoriseogeun baekseong) are using Eonmun to write anonymous slanders against the King and the court, its use must be stopped.
I
I thought that hwacha had high maneuverability compared to cannons or smth else at that time, am i wrong? It is literally a cart with arrows. Also, why do we need cannons for production here? Please correct me if i wrong.
Forming the Manchu doesn't mean they became a new country. As written in my previous post, being Manchu accepted more cultures than Jurchens. Historically, becoming Manchu and proclaiming the Jin State were two different events: 1. Later, the Jin was established in 1616; 2. The reform into Manchu was in 1635. I am quite tired of explaining that there was never a Manchurian state in history. Even for Manchukuo, the name in Manchu was just Manju Gurun, Manchu State, rather than Manchuria.
So we agree that somewhere down the line the Jurchen people should be renamed to Manchu, you just don't agree with the theory I shared, with honestly is fine.
Do you suggest that the decision to change the name to Manchu should make the integration of the other cultures making up Manchuria easier, or make them accepted for a lot less? If so, which cultures should be included in that sped up integration?
