C.O.R.E HOI - Italy

[McNaughton]

Generalisimo, I totally agree about the industrial ability and location of Italy. I also think that decreasing them too much will neuter them. My mother was from the North of Italy, and can say that it was a fairly heavily industrialized region, when compared to the south (which was effectively 'backward' when compared to the north industrially).

I have "The Times Atlas of World War Two" and on Page 37 it talks a lot about Italy's and Germany's pre-war economies. The Italian Industrial production index surpassed Germany's until 1935, but Germany's was only about 35-40% larger the Italy's by 1938. Using Industrial potential will not really show how the industry should start, as Germany and Italy had about the same production value (Germany's slightly higher) in 1936. This might be why Germany is so powerful in the game, they never have to bother with historically having to increase their industry. Indeed, the Italian motor industry was dwarfed by Germany, but that is only representing a small bit of the total military/civilian industry of a nation. Also, Germany did not realise their total potential industrial production until around 1942, where before then, England out produced them militarily.

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However, I don't believe that the Italian equipment was as bad as this poster says it was. Sure, the L3/33 was not quite an effective battle tank, but every nation had their poor tankette/light tank (German PzKpfw I, British Vickers Mk VI, etc.). Italian Medium tanks actually had great reputations, notably on their reliability. Reliability is very important in tanks, as it does not matter how strong their armour/guns are if they keep on breaking down (problem with British tanks). Also, Italian tanks were fairly well armed and armoured. The British also recount that fighting Italian tanks was a challenge throughout the war, but Rommel kept on overshadowing Italian tank feats.

Italian aircraft were very good designs as well. Very reliable and comparable to Axis and Allied designs. So much so that Germany actually used captured Italian aircraft after 1943 and even continued production, something that was not done for almost any foreign captured aircraft type (including French).

However, this is really a non-issue since everything like this is hard coded and relies totally on research.

 

[McNaughton]

Originally posted by emperor dennis
Maybe you are right, but I do recall the allies having to fight near Monte Cassino (Rome and not Ancona province) before they got Rome... And they also diidn't get Napoli for free... The idea would be to let Italy secede all of its mainland provinces to Germany; this would mean it could never secede those provinces wich are already controlled by the allies. After that Italy would receive the mainland provinces from the Allies wich in turn would receive some provinces from Italy to create a controlled province; this would help solve both problems at once.
And about the French part of Lybia: it is only some Sahara desert but it should be there for accuracy. However after the Torch event has struck it could happen, the Axis would have no bases in Africa and those are inland provinces; they wouldn't need real defending.

I understand what you are saying, but, Germany actually had to conquer this territory from the Italians before the Allies landed. The Allies hoped to land airborne formations in Rome to help the Italian troops there, but due to Eisenhower wrecking any sort of organized Italian resistence (he was a major dolt!), the US called off supporting the Italians, who after some confused fighting, surrendered. Also, the Germans had to forceably re-occupy the Naples area. So, technically the Italians did give this southern territory to the Allies, but the Axis were just quicker at exploiting and re-conquering it.

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by McNaughton
However, I don't believe that the Italian equipment was as bad as this poster says it was. Sure, the L3/33 was not quite an effective battle tank, but every nation had their poor tankette/light tank (German PzKpfw I, British Vickers Mk VI, etc.). Italian Medium tanks actually had great reputations, notably on their reliability. Reliability is very important in tanks, as it does not matter how strong their armour/guns are if they keep on breaking down (problem with British tanks). Also, Italian tanks were fairly well armed and armoured. The British also recount that fighting Italian tanks was a challenge throughout the war, but Rommel kept on overshadowing Italian tank feats.

Italian aircraft were very good designs as well. Very reliable and comparable to Axis and Allied designs. So much so that Germany actually used captured Italian aircraft after 1943 and even continued production, something that was not done for almost any foreign captured aircraft type (including French).

However, this is really a non-issue since everything like this is hard coded and relies totally on research.

well, i have always read that the italian tanks were not so good, also the fighters... be aware, we are talking about what they have in the field, not what they desing.
It is said that the first "model" (not prototype) of a jet fighter was developed by the italians, but they will never produce that, so they forget about that. So giving them just because they "could produce it" jet engine techs are a total nonsense, why?, because of the HoI engine.
The same applies to tanks, infantry, etc... every new tech that you give them, it is inmediately used in the field, a thing that the italians never did.
So, we have to give them what they actually have in the fields, and that is not much than what they have now.

 

[unmerged(14102)]

I will open up a bit of discussion here about the Italian economy.

This has long been a point of contention with the EU as estimating their economy is consistently the most difficult. It is generally felt, that most estimates are low, but there is no agreement as to how low. Principal driver in these estimates is that a significant percentage of the Italian economy has always been their "cottage" industry. Cottage industry refers to business conducted out of the house, generally for cash. The businesses range from simple crafts to electronics assembly.

This is wide spread practice in Italy, where the 'official' job often suffers as a result. This information is from official EU economic reports as well as personal experience. I have family in Italy and have worked there.

In the North is where much of the official industry is centered, although Rome and Naples do, and always have ahd, significant industry as well. The south [and essentially any rural area] is where the prepoderance of the cottage industry is located.

I'm not sure, but i suspect that the Swedish profs at Paradox may have taken this into account in their delegation of IC's to Italy, and the balance between North and South.

I would suggest caution and restraint before adjusting the Italian IC's too much, and their balance. Understanding this facet of the Italian economy is quite important. I would also add that this applies in Western Yugoslavia [Croatia, Slovenia, and bit to Bosnia as well] to a similar extent.

Thanks.

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by PaxMondo
I will open up a bit of discussion here about the Italian economy.

This has long been a point of contention with the EU as estimating their economy is consistently the most difficult. It is generally felt, that most estimates are low, but there is no agreement as to how low. Principal driver in these estimates is that a significant percentage of the Italian economy has always been their "cottage" industry. Cottage industry refers to business conducted out of the house, generally for cash. The businesses range from simple crafts to electronics assembly.

This is wide spread practice in Italy, where the 'official' job often suffers as a result. This information is from official EU economic reports as well as personal experience. I have family in Italy and have worked there.

In the North is where much of the official industry is centered, although Rome and Naples do, and always have ahd, significant industry as well. The south [and essentially any rural area] is where the prepoderance of the cottage industry is located.

I'm not sure, but i suspect that the Swedish profs at Paradox may have taken this into account in their delegation of IC's to Italy, and the balance between North and South.

I would suggest caution and restraint before adjusting the Italian IC's too much, and their balance. Understanding this facet of the Italian economy is quite important. I would also add that this applies in Western Yugoslavia [Croatia, Slovenia, and bit to Bosnia as well] to a similar extent.

Thanks.

ok, thanks for the info.
i will take that into account.

 

[unmerged(13601)]

Italian Ai

Generalisimo, you have done work on the Italian AI. What have you done exactly and how succesfull is your AI? Is there still work to be done on the AI files?

 

[Generalisimo]

Re: Italian Ai

Originally posted by Wineman
Generalisimo, you have done work on the Italian AI. What have you done exactly and how succesfull is your AI? Is there still work to be done on the AI files?

of course there is work to do there.
i modify some things there (garrison parameters, provinces, etc)
but, until the Front AI uses MA, we have a lot of problems there...
for example, Italy never go through Yugoslavia, no matter if it is allied and had MA, they will try to land on Greece...
Slovakia, Romania, Hungary, Yugoslavia will have all their armies stationed in their capital when they do not have a front with the USSR... so Germany fights alone, until it is too late and the axis are crushed by USSR.

 

[unmerged(13923)]

Hi,
I read some of the last posts about italian economy and equipment of this tread so I decided to write here (thanks generalisimo )

Italian surrender:

Historically after the surrender of the Axix garrison in Tunis Hitler offered Mussolini to send some infantry divisions to defend Italy from the coming Allied invasion. Mussolini decided to accept only a few division also because he feared that Germany didn't trust the italian will to continue the war (they were right) and that German troops could occupy and not defend Italy.
The Allies then planned the invasion of Sicily threatening to invade Sardinia or Greece (some plans of these seaborne invasion were left in a dead marine found by the axis (a fake!))
Then After the invasion and the conquering of Sicily but before any allied landing in the south of Italy... Mussolini was overthrown by the fascist party and Badoglio became prime minister. They told the germans that they would have continued the war BUT secretely negotiated the armistice with the allies.

The armistice was announced by the algier radio station on 8 september 1943 and soon after started the seaborne invasion of Italy:

- The Allies plan was a seaborne invasion near Salerno, while the 8th army of Montgomery crossed the sea between Messina and Reggio Calabria and then started to move northward to Naples, and then a small task force landed in Puglia to occupy Taranto and Bari. Kesselring feared that the allies could land north of Rome (Civitavecchia) but it never happened so He could hold the Gothic lane (where Montecassino is located).

-Badoglio and the King Vittorio Emanuele III fled to Bari and left Rome to german hands (italian garrison didn't fight the Germans cause allied troops didn't land near Rome as they wished and hoped and cause Kesselring offered to make of Rome a "free city" (sorry but I don't know if in english it sounds right.. in italian was "citta' aperta")

-Italian armies didn't received any order so they didn't know how to react when german troops disarmed them...or worst.. executed them as in Cefalonia

The RSI was created later when Otto skorzeny rescued Mussolini in the prison of Gran Sasso.

Industrial potential of Italy:

As I write in the post above I think that italian I.C. has to be lowered and redistributed even if not too much. If I remember well Italy starts with about 129 I.C. points.. while IMHO it should have about 100 I.C. points.. not more.. This could be obtained reducing I.C. value of some italian south and central regions like Rome (20 to 10) and like.

Italian discoveries..

It is true that italian scientists in the war made "miraculus discoveries" never used! This happened cause military chiefs as Cavagnari and Badoglio judged them "too modern" !!! and cause a prototype in order to be used in the filed has to pass six certifications (if even one of the examination teams asks to modify the prototype.. it must starts the iter again!) and if you think that even at war italian government offices closed at 2 p.m. ...............

Italian equipment

Italian bombers used in 1940-1941 the infamous P102 were called "The flying weakness"... I hope you understand.....
The first tank of Fiat-Ansaldo, the M10 was destroyed buy submachinegun bursts and was demolished by stone throwing once in Ethiopia..

I hope to be helpful

Darkey

 

[Generalisimo]

Thanks for all the info.

well here it is the current IC distirbution:

Italy - Central					
905	Bologna	Italy	Mediterranean	mountain	8
906	Firenze	Italy	Mediterranean	hills	8
907	Ancona	Italy	Mediterranean	hills	3
908	Roma	Italy	Mediterranean	hills	20
Italy - North					
563	Bolzano	Italy	Temperate	mountain	3
567	Venezia	Italy	Mediterranean	clear	6
910	Parma	Italy	Mediterranean	clear	12
912	Milano	Italy	Mediterranean	clear	15
913	La Spezia	Italy	Mediterranean	mountain	5
932	Torino	Italy	Temperate	mountain	10
933	Genoa	Italy	Mediterranean	mountain	10
Italy - Sardinia					
938	Cagliari	Italy	Mediterranean	mountain	1
Italy - Sicily					
897	Messina	Italy	Mediterranean	mountain	3
898	Siracusa	Italy	Mediterranean	clear	2
Italy - South					
893	Taranto	Italy	Mediterranean	hills	5
900	Bari	Italy	Mediterranean	hills	1
901	Napoli	Italy	Mediterranean	hills	10
902	Potenza	Italy	Mediterranean	hills	1
903	Cosenza	Italy	Mediterranean	mountain	1

what do you recommend?

 

[unmerged(13601)]

with only 100 IC's, would it be possible to give Italy more techs than it has (fighter for instance and naval), but keep the OOB filled with the current units. That way Italy has the potential to make better stuff, however it hasn't the IC to upgrade all its stuff.

How many different AI's are needed for Italy? Pre-war, balkan war, defeaten in NA, Italian surrender? Or more, maybe an ethiopian war before pre-war?

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by Wineman

How many different AI's are needed for Italy? Pre-war, balkan war, defeaten in NA, Italian surrender? Or more, maybe an ethiopian war before pre-war?

no, that's not a good approach.
If you make diferent AIs, the player will know that and will make an exploit from that.
Imagine this situation:
You know that Italy starts with an "against_ethiopia.ai", so you can declare war against them being Austria that they will not notice you, so we make an event that changes the AI to "italy_war_europa.ai", then Ethiopia is forgotten and they focus in Austria, so Ethiopia will remain...
when you will go back to "against_ethiopia.ai"?? you don't know... so? Ethiopia will remain there?
imagine adding to this the "balkan_war.ai", "na_italy.ai" and "italy_surrender.ai"...
you got a complete mess.

so it is preferable, to have 2 AIs, to make it simple, one for peace, the other for war. That excludes, Japan for example that needs more AIs to manage the entire thread of operations that they have.

 

[Steel]

I've used 4 different AI files for Japan, essentially peace, war vs China, war vs Allies and war vs USSR. This leaves gaping holes for a war agains Axis or war against USSR and Allies at the same time etc. I also don't know all the risks involved in swapping AI files (ie potential for cancelled builds etc).

The event scripting involved in having multiple AI's quickly becomes complex and prone to errors (like over-reacting to new war against USSR when Bitter Peace has happened and USSR only has 30 militia). There's no way of estimating the danger an enemy poses

Bottom line - keep the number of files small.

 

[unmerged(13601)]

Problem I have found is that Albania builds infantry (2 inf divs, how is this possible?) and Italy loses 15+ divisions trying to conquer Albania because it only lands 3 divs at once and waits till they are wiped out before adding reinforcements. I can change that by changing reinforcement odds and request reinforcement odds (I hope so, didn't have time to test yet), but then Italy will strip Greece, mainland Italy and the rest of the balkans to defend NA and seriously beat the allies there or bleed UK divisions (as UK can directly deploy new units in Egypt), thus weakening UK home defence and mainland italian defence. And Italy will conquer Greece to easily because it strips NA an dmainland italy in order to reinforce the troops there.

So I want a pre-war Italy that is capable of conquering Albania (even if it builds inf div.) by trying to fight conservatively (large number advantage). However after joining axis, it should be less conservtive in attacking and more garrison minded. Hmm, just thought I could try the same by keeping a high min. garrison value. Wil do some testing tonight with that.

 

[unmerged(13923)]

I suggest to change the I.C. value of these cities:

Parma 10 instead of 12
Rom1 8 instead of 20
Torino 15 instead of 10
Messina 1 instead of 3
Siracusa 1 instead of 2
Napoli 4 instead of 10
Taranto 3 instead of 5

So the Italian (homeland) I.C. value would be 104 instead of 124

(More historical)

I don't know if you have considered another historical problem of Italy: the lack of coal
Even if in HOI Italy has a good production of coal historically Mussonlini asked Hitler to provide Italy of her entire needs of coal in order to DOW the allies.. Maybe this could be simulated as an event (similar to the USA lend lease act to UK) as a prerequisite for italian militar intervention.

Bye all good work!

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by Darkey

I don't know if you have considered another historical problem of Italy: the lack of coal
Even if in HOI Italy has a good production of coal historically Mussonlini asked Hitler to provide Italy of her entire needs of coal in order to DOW the allies.. Maybe this could be simulated as an event (similar to the USA lend lease act to UK) as a prerequisite for italian militar intervention.

Bye all good work!

thanks.
by what "events" that negotiation took place? after the invasion of Poland? we can prepare events that if GER is at war with POL, the events chain will trigger...

 

[unmerged(13923)]

The negotiations took place twice:

- First after Germany DOW Poland but the list of italian needs was so huge ( that Hitler allowed Italy to remain neutral even if allied of Germany. Hitler told Mussolini just a few months before that there was no incoming war before 1943 so Italy was unprepared

- Then shortly before the french armistice in 1940 Mussolini believed that after the fall of France UK would have made peace and so renewed his offer to enter war along with Germany, this time only asking Hitler to provide the coal Italy needs. Hitler accepted and so Italy DOW France and UK on 10 june 1940

Bye

Darkey

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by Darkey
The negotiations took place twice:

- First after Germany DOW Poland but the list of italian needs was so huge ( that Hitler allowed Italy to remain neutral even if allied of Germany. Hitler told Mussolini just a few months before that there was no incoming war before 1943 so Italy was unprepared

- Then shortly before the french armistice in 1940 Mussolini believed that after the fall of France UK would have made peace and so renewed his offer to enter war along with Germany, this time only asking Hitler to provide the coal Italy needs. Hitler accepted and so Italy DOW France and UK on 10 june 1940

Bye

Darkey

5000 coal will be good? or more?

 

[unmerged(13923)]

What if

-Reduction of the italian production of coal (at least 25%)

- If italy enters war along with germany with this event every month receive from germany the production lost above (I don't remember well but italian production of coal is about 400/500 a day so if it is is cut down by 100)
In a year it would 36000... so 3000 per month but i think 1000 a month should be enough (or 6000 every six month..)

Darkey

P.S. Is there any event for Rommel intervention in N.A. if the italian army in Libia (Graziani) is defeated in 1940?

Maybe even for U.K. setting priority to defend Cairo (explaining the reinforcements Auchinleck received in 1941 and 1942 to perform a long series of offensives against Rommel).

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by Darkey
What if

-Reduction of the italian production of coal (at least 25%)

- If italy enters war along with germany with this event every month receive from germany the production lost above (I don't remember well but italian production of coal is about 400/500 a day so if it is is cut down by 100)
In a year it would 36000... so 3000 per month but i think 1000 a month should be enough (or 6000 every six month..)

Darkey

P.S. Is there any event for Rommel intervention in N.A. if the italian army in Libia (Graziani) is defeated in 1940?

Maybe even for U.K. setting priority to defend Cairo (explaining the reinforcements Auchinleck received in 1941 and 1942 to perform a long series of offensives against Rommel).

it is not posible with the current engine to send Rommel to there

 

[unmerged(13923)]

A real pity...
Another idea for events about italy but also germany...
First Germany and then also Italy adopted the racial laws that persecuted million of jewish people.. one of the short term historical consequences, before the atrocities of the lagers was that some scientists fled from Germany (Einstein and Lise Meitner) and Italy (Enrico Fermi) to the U.S.A. and joined their nuclear discoveries in the "Manhattan project".

Maybe it's possible to represent this with an event for Germany and Italy and U.S.A.

-Racial Laws ---> Scientists flee (1937-1939) ---> Manhattan project (summer 1942)

Maybe there could an initial discovery with the first event and then with the Manhattan project event (Einstein sent a letter to Roosevelt saying that Germany was probably in the way to discover a powerful weapon 2 august 1942) U.S.A. could have the goal of discovering A-bomb (is it possible to set with the code?)

Bye

Darkey