Echoes of A New Tomorrow: Life after Revolution in the Commonwealth of Britain

[Le Jones]

I was indeed going to suggest the magistrates in some way, however, my experiences in criminal law being what they are, I was really hoping it would be someone, anyone, else.

Sorry - having slept on this, I suppose, if we wanted to really have some fun, we could smash the entire system, pulling it down as 'ideologically unsound'. All that you have left, in that vacuum, is:

1. The Party. They could be asked to look after regional criminal matters, as well as to arbitrate civil disputes.
2. The rozzers. Some form of legal determination at the Police station, Mosley can sell it as 'instant justice', it's cheap as chips, and probably quite brutal. Civil disputes are settled by applications to the local... Party? Post Office? Council?
3. The Unions. Give them powers over their workers and their families. Corby Mags, following my last post, becomes "The Third Steelworkers' Settlement Court".

The modern magistrates Court system (which I should point out handles most cases these days) is an insane blend of the worst kind of loony leftie and rightie tighte old boy clubs that my own father not only wrote a strongly worded letter in response to being asked to join, but actually sent it.

Pappa J, you understand, was of the right class but was deemed to be too irreverent. He ignored an injunction to join the Rotary Club by pointing out that he had just retired after thrashing himself in business, had bought a boat to get away from my mother, and had no intention of getting on everyone's nerves.

Its a profession who modus operandi is the discovery and exploitation of the weaknesses of the system.

So really, when a lawyer finds the path to revolution the lawyer is only doing what comes naturally.

Yes, a lot of truth in this @stnylan - and no matter if I am in a dirty court or in a swanky company building, the skills are the same.

I demand a picture of Lady Simmerson! Are you sure it was proper fancy dress and that they hadn't rousted out the local dominatrix?

Alas photography is not allowed, imagine Patricia Hodge with madder hair and a riding crop.

And he was AMAZING at it. Have you read his speeches in the senate about legal queries, trials, the defence of personal rights and the rule of law being key to civilization?

There are many reasons why that man ended up taking over the entire empire but a core one was how good he was at using the system for his benefit, and convincing everyone else that it was for their benefit too.

I find it oddly comforting that not much has changed.

Getting back to the discussion of legal systems, I have to say that I'm certainly glad of the one I'm in. Sure, I get annoyed with having to write out my probable cause statement for DUIs and Domestic Assault. Most everything else though is just sworn testimony to the magistrate. It's very different in other states that don't have the Common Law basis.

True; although in the UK we're struggling with a woefully underfunded system...

 

[El Pip]

Sorry - having slept on this, I suppose, if we wanted to really have some fun, we could smash the entire system, pulling it down as 'ideologically unsound'. All that you have left, in that vacuum, is:

1. The Party. They could be asked to look after regional criminal matters, as well as to arbitrate civil disputes.

"While all the facts clearly show you are guilty, your speech was doctrinally impeccable so we are sentencing the other side to death. Yes of course the death penalty is an option in civil disputes."

2. The rozzers. Some form of legal determination at the Police station, Mosley can sell it as 'instant justice', it's cheap as chips, and probably quite brutal. Civil disputes are settled by applications to the local... Party? Post Office? Council?

I don't know why but I like the idea of Post Office justice. Though it would probably end up with a population living in terror of Postman Pat's Red Van and his deliveries of brutal and uncompromising 'justice'. Pat would also make collections and take away dissidents and political opponents, those poor souls are never seen again.

True; although in the UK we're struggling with a woefully underfunded system...

Or perhaps a system that does too much. Could we start by banning all judicial reviews? Just because I'd really like us to be able to build things without endless rounds of court cases due to quibbles over utterly unimportant details.

 

[Le Jones]

I don't know why but I like the idea of Post Office justice. Though it would probably end up with a population living in terror of Postman Pat's Red Van and his deliveries of brutal and uncompromising 'justice'. Pat would also make collections and take away dissidents and political opponents, those poor souls are never seen again.

At least it's a red van! We're getting, slowly, to...

Or perhaps a system that does too much. Could we start by banning all judicial reviews? Just because I'd really like us to be able to build things without endless rounds of court cases due to quibbles over utterly unimportant details.

JR is an interesting one, and certainly a very useful tool, and certainly one that has made a real difference for the better (little person v huge public body etc). The problem is that everyone with any sense knows that it's a wonderful way of getting a view on the merits of a decision, and/or holding things up. Aside from the overt challenges, a significant consequence is that it has led to a slow growth of internal bureaucracy. Back to the UK Armed Forces, I know from a couple of cases that I advised on in the 2010s, that relatively low level HR decisions aren't made until a full check against the Wednesbury principles is made. I anticipate that Her Imperial Highness Elizabeth of Truss, Lady Warden of Britannia, will probably push through with the Raab reforms.

 

[El Pip]

At least it's a red van! We're getting, slowly, to...

View attachment 867380

This is clearly the convergence ending that DB has been hinting at.

JR is an interesting one, and certainly a very useful tool, and certainly one that has made a real difference for the better (little person v huge public body etc).

Perhaps in other areas. But JR also often makes a real difference for the worse. Just as a recent example I think of the Vanguard and Boreas offshore windfarms, delayed by almost 2 years because a judge decided some of the paperwork wasn't quite perfect. 3.6GW of additional non-Russian-gas electricity supply would have been quite useful right now, alas not.

Aside from the overt challenges, a significant consequence is that it has led to a slow growth of internal bureaucracy. Back to the UK Armed Forces, I know from a couple of cases that I advised on in the 2010s, that relatively low level HR decisions aren't made until a full check against the Wednesbury principles is made.

It has only got worse since then I assure you. The JR demand for paperwork on everything is debilitating, if there isn't a huge report proving the obvious then a judge will doubtless decide it has not been "properly considered". The Stonehenge decision was awful for that, the judge complained Highways England had not properly considered the heritage impacts of an already ruled out long tunnel option and that was grounds to overturn the decision. Of course they hadn't done the work, it was a ruled out option! It would have a waste of taxpayer money to do an assessment on an option that was never going to happen, of course that work is now being done and will change nothing because the long tunnel option is still too expensive.

There are times when I feel the underfunding problem in the legal system is richly deserved. They've inflicted so much cost and misery on the rest of the public sector and wider country it is only just they feel the financial consequences of their overly aggressive and negative interpretation of everything. Maybe if government agencies didn't have to waste so much money trying to make everything JR proof (and then being taken to court anyway) there would be more money available.

I anticipate that Her Imperial Highness Elizabeth of Truss, Lady Warden of Britannia, will probably push through with the Raab reforms.

Fingers crossed. We might actually build something then.

 

[stnylan]

At least it's a red van! We're getting, slowly, to...

View attachment 867380

How sweet - the Radio Times costing 30p

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

"While all the facts clearly show you are guilty, your speech was doctrinally impeccable so we are sentencing the other side to death. Yes of course the death penalty is an option in civil disputes."

Good point! Death penalty abolition is a big left wing thing but was done post the revolution timeline change. What was done about that, and max prison sentencing, and prisons in general @DensleyBlair ?

Or perhaps a system that does too much. Could we start by banning all judicial reviews?

Noooo, no no no no nooo.

No.

No.

Well...maybe for planning permission and build projects. But otherwise...

Noooooooo.

 

[DensleyBlair]

I leave the forums for a few days to crack on with my dissertation and I'm greeted on my return by two pages of intricate discussion about *checks notes* magistrates…

Yep, sounds about right.

As much as I enjoyed catching up with the discourse, please forgive me for not responding to any of it right now. My brain is a bit fried between the heat and spending the week reading Adorno, so I'll have to wait until I'm a bit most settled to dive into the heart of the matters raised. (And to respond to your initial comment, if you don't mind @El Pip. As ever your mordant commentary raises some good points, so I'd like to give it the response it deserves in due course. But for now – good to see you back!)

All that said, seeing as Butterfly @'d me, I will reply to this one now:

Good point! Death penalty abolition is a big left wing thing but was done post the revolution timeline change. What was done about that, and max prison sentencing, and prisons in general @DensleyBlair ?

Death penalty hasn't really been used since the revolution. Churchill was shot in 1929, as was Edward Windsor in 1944 for his part in the abortive (calamitous) German plot to put him back on the throne (his wife – not Wallis – was also condemned, but the sentence was commuted in the end). Other than that, though, it was subject to a de facto moratorium until David Lewis legislated it away in 1964.

Max sentencing is funnily enough going to be covered in the next update (I'll let you all draw your own various conclusions about what that foreshadows) but in practice anything above 15 years is rare. The fascist leader Rotha Lintorn-Orman got 15 years after the revolution, for example.

Prisons will take longer to explain so I'll leave it until the update, but I'll refer you back to the John Tennyson update for a look at the situation under Mosley.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Churchill was shot in 1929,

Good.

Edward Windsor in 1944

Gooooood.

...

Prison in general is a very right wing idea, that really doesn't work and is incredibly inefficient and expensive. For the majority of crimes sentenced in the country anyway (drugs mostly).

Depends what the party theory on crime and punishment is really, because surely under socialism, crime should rarely happen for economic reasons?

 

[DensleyBlair]

Prison in general is a very right wing idea, that really doesn't work and is incredibly inefficient and expensive. For the majority of crimes sentenced in the country anyway (drugs mostly).

Absolutely. Particularly with the New Left lot circling around the levers of power, there is scope for some very progressive penal reforms in the near future.

Depends what the party theory on crime and punishment is really, because surely under socialism, crime should rarely happen for economic reasons?

Yes, went into this a little bit in the last chapter with policing. Most ‘crime’ under Mosley was dealt with by his Domestic Bureau agents as crimes of sedition and so on. Now that the rule of this particular law has been done away with, I’m assuming crime rates have plummeted. (Or conviction/imprisonment rates, certainly.)

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Anyway, the query/debate was the makeup of the criminal justice system, and the wider court system in general.

There is plenty of butterflies to be had with the privy Council and London review courts no longer existing. Where will the middle east resolve their disputes now, Ottawa? Nah...

 

[Director]

those poor souls are never seen again.

Here in the US, we'd send them postage due 5th class to Samoa, or some such.


If we're telling legal stories, and if you don't mind a brief digression? (If so, skip over).

When I was a young 'un, we returned from a lengthy camping trip (some 6 weeks in Canada). My parents sent me to the corner store for bread and milk and such, and I was pulled over and ticketed by a city policeman.

The charge? While we were gone, the city had passed an ordinance requiring every vehicle to have a city license plate, funds to go toward street repair.

My father (retired from the bar but well known in our little town) called up the judge and asked to have the charge dropped if he purchased plates on the next weekday. The judge - a friend and colleague of my father - refused. I do remember my father saying, "Judge Smith? I won't have this on my son's driving record. Don't make me do this."

So my father told me to go to school as usual and he would represent me in court. It went something like this:

When asked to plead, my father pled not guilty by virtue of the ordinance being void as contravening the State Constitution of Arkansas on at least three counts.

Judge Smith: "Bud, what are you doing?"

My father (known as Bud all his life): "Judge, I asked you not to make me do this."

So the citation was thrown out, the ordinance was thrown out, the money - which had already been spent - had to be refunded. And the judge made my father sit on the panel that drew up the new ordinance.

Until I went off to college I couldn't get arrested in that town.

 

[Wraith11B]

If that ain't some level of Good Ol Boy system, I'll eat my fake-wicker stetson.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Here in the US, we'd send them postage due 5th class to Samoa, or some such.


If we're telling legal stories, and if you don't mind a brief digression? (If so, skip over).

When I was a young 'un, we returned from a lengthy camping trip (some 6 weeks in Canada). My parents sent me to the corner store for bread and milk and such, and I was pulled over and ticketed by a city policeman.

The charge? While we were gone, the city had passed an ordinance requiring every vehicle to have a city license plate, funds to go toward street repair.

My father (retired from the bar but well known in our little town) called up the judge and asked to have the charge dropped if he purchased plates on the next weekday. The judge - a friend and colleague of my father - refused. I do remember my father saying, "Judge Smith? I won't have this on my son's driving record. Don't make me do this."

So my father told me to go to school as usual and he would represent me in court. It went something like this:

When asked to plead, my father pled not guilty by virtue of the ordinance being void as contravening the State Constitution of Arkansas on at least three counts.

Judge Smith: "Bud, what are you doing?"

My father (known as Bud all his life): "Judge, I asked you not to make me do this."

So the citation was thrown out, the ordinance was thrown out, the money - which had already been spent - had to be refunded. And the judge made my father sit on the panel that drew up the new ordinance.

Until I went off to college I couldn't get arrested in that town.

America really is just feudal England with better branding and less charm, isn't it?

 

[Director]

Oh, I dunno... I haven't been to England. I can say that I have been to some charming places in this country. Mystic, Connecticut, Savannah, Georgia, Memphis, Tennessee. And of course New Orleans, Louisiana - one of the greatest, most disastrous cities in the world.

And as for branding? I think Britain beats the US all hollow.



@Wraith11B - you should have seen the lines of people at city hall, all come for their refund. There are some advantages to living in a small town.

 

[DensleyBlair]

And as for branding? I think Britain beats the US all hollow.

Oh yeah. The devil works hard, but the UK’s reputation-laundering culture ‘industry’ works harder plus overtime.

At least with the States I sort of know what I’d be getting myself into. No amount of BBC America programming would ever prepare me for the peculiar realities of provincial Britain, were I not born into it.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Oh yeah. The devil works hard, but the UK’s reputation-laundering culture ‘industry’ works harder plus overtime.

At least with the States I sort of know what I’d be getting myself into. No amount of BBC America programming would ever prepare me for the peculiar realities of provincial Britain, were I not born into it.

Rewriting history is what we do on our default setting. For fun, profit and just if there's nothing else to do.

 

[Director]

If you have never read Florence King's 'Southern Ladies and Gentlemen' then I highly recommend it. Any book that begins with, "If you built a fence around the South, you'd have one big madhouse," is, I think, worthy of your time. And I can say that, far from being caricatures, her Southern ladies and gentlemen are people I've actually met.

A few quotes: https://libquotes.com/florence-king/works/southern-ladies-and-gentlemen

One of the categories she breaks down is the Southerner obsessed with genealogy. She gives the example of the demure Southern lady who begins by investigating her very common ancestors and ends by claiming direct descent from Henry VI...

I believe there is a lot in common between the American South and the ancestral home, certainly between the inhabitants.

Apologies for the digression.

 

[stnylan]

Read through to and including page 57. Detroit is dying in a blaze of resentment and hatred.

The situation in Guyana was grimly fascinating.

One can, as it were, rely on Enoch Powell.

 

[Wraith11B]

To echo @Director as I lived there for seven years: New Orleans is the most European city in the United States.

Speaking as an unfortunate Southerner by twist of fate of birth, yes. All of that description for sure encapsulates the South.

 

[DensleyBlair]

I am making attempt #7 (I think) to catch up with this and I have just got through the Death (politically and literally) of Bevan. It is of course excellent and the tone of the below is just because the Britain depicted seems so awful and grim, it is no way a reflection on the quality of the writing.

Thank you for your persistence, Pip. And very welcome to have you back hanging around this end of the thread. I had been anticipating some forceful commentary last year when the Aberfan arc first appeared, so good to see it at last.

Put it another way the disaster would still have happened even if the mine had been under worker control from the day after the revolution.

I of course dispute such fatalism, but – point understood.

I’ve been mulling over what to say on Aberfan for a while now, and all things considered I will decline, if you don’t mind, to draw out the points about fault and conduct and who set off what chain of events. Obviously it is true that an accident at a colliery must have been triggered by people and events at that colliery. Evidently it is also true that, depending on where one comes from, how one was raised and what one believes, there are certain things which become, as you say, causes, and so subject to the logics of faith and not fact (whatever one might take to be the difference between the two).

I think it’s fair to suggest that my own stance is probably quite easy to divine. It’s equally true, as a more disputatious writer than I once put it, that: What writer can compete with the reader’s imagination? The bottom line, I think, is that if reading about Aberfan as described here elicits such forceful responses then I probably done my job as a writer. The argument is of course as much as the point as the specifics of blame is not. In a sense it’s a whole system which is guilty, so singling out individuals is absurd. But that’s politics, right?

I think/hope that means it is a committee of the People's Assembly,

Yes. And I am bracing myself for all subsequent accusations that it is a farce, lacks legitimacy, whitewashes worker incompetence, etc etc.

Looking at the complete sham of an election as always voting seems pointless given the horrific choices available.

2024 is a grim prospect, isn’t it?

In any event congratulations on your continued sterling work and well deserved awards, it is time I take a short break to allow my equilibrium to recover before diving into the election.

Thank you. Rest assured whatever psychic damage my writing has caused you, your attentive criticism is just as powerful in response.

I’ve thought about this for an unhealthily long time, (the effects of good writing and good ideas) and I think that @El Pip has something in the inquisitorial rather than adversarial approach.

Combining the two themes that I swirl around, the obvious answer, I think, is the Magistracy, configured and made politically pure and free from decadent and anti-proletarian feudalist notions.

This was a fascinating (and very amusing) contribution, Mr J. Thank you for taking the time over it! I think you are on the money, that some sort of inquisitorial/magisterial system would be the natural choice for Mosley. Though this is, of course, all subject to intense change as we move swiftly through the current crisis and towards resolution.

Read through to and including page 57. Detroit is dying in a blaze of resentment and hatred.

The situation in Guyana was grimly fascinating.

One can, as it were, rely on Enoch Powell.

Glad to hear your thoughts on those chapters, stnylan! Guyana was fun to puzzle out, and as you say no one’s finest hour. Credit to @99KingHigh as ever for his dedication to the horror that is the United States.

Powell, alas, remains a-Powelling.