Eu2Vic: Feedback and Comments

[montyP]

Nice test results G_D! Was it with the latest version, the one from yesterday (19th)?

It seems to me that city population generally generates too much population. Maybe we should tweak down the city generated population to half, and give a good boost to certain areas??? Mainly China and Korea. In the latest version I boosted pop in China, Indonesia and India (the unpopulated areas in India) with the “extra” tag in the “culture.txt” file. Check it out!

The “average idea” might be hard too realize, as country borders will differ from game to game. And I do not want to read through the entire Vic GC POP files to find an average value.

 

[montyP]

The config files aren't necessary for conversion, I believe. Essentially the conversion creates a scenario rather than a save- and these don't have config files.

Correcto mundo, no config file is necessary in conversion.

 

[Sute]{h]

Brainwave for POP converter: why not make the system come up with an average of the converted figure and the Victoria GC total? This would at least partially solve all the big problems with extreme figures.

Another alternative in the same line of thought could be to simply use each countrys precentage of total population in the EU2 save to determin their precentage of the standard total victoria population. Then the countrys population is devided among their provinces according to the relative province population in the EU2 save. This would of course mean that all converted saves has the same total population, but it would also insure that the world population is somewhat historical.

 

[Emre Yigit]

Another alternative in the same line of thought could be to simply use each countrys precentage of total population in the EU2 save to determin their precentage of the standard total victoria population. Then the countrys population is devided among their provinces according to the relative province population in the EU2 save. This would of course mean that all converted saves has the same total population, but it would also insure that the world population is somewhat historical.

I don't much like this idea. It would mean that, say, a France that had occupied all historical British territories save London would have a very thinly stretched population, while London in 1836 would be roughly the same size as Mezico City 150 years later!

 

[montyP]

Another alternative in the same line of thought could be to simply use each countrys precentage of total population in the EU2 save to determin their precentage of the standard total victoria population. Then the countrys population is devided among their provinces according to the relative province population in the EU2 save. This would of course mean that all converted saves has the same total population, but it would also insure that the world population is somewhat historical.

Personally I don’t think population should be the same size in every converted game, then one would use standard Vic GC population instead. I think that city size most definitely should be reflected in Vic province pop size. Many things happen during a EU2 GC game that affects pop size. For example: If a province has seen a lot of war, it will have a smaller pop than a province that didn’t. I kinda like to see those effects on my converted game.

 

[Sute]{h]

Well... the population for each country wouldn't be the same only the total world population.

 

[Nimic]

Do we really want real historical populations/etc. anyway? Isn't this the point, that you can change history, and convert an EU2 game and continue as you wish?

 

[unmerged(10564)]

Personally I don’t think population should be the same size in every converted game, then one would use standard Vic GC population instead. I think that city size most definitely should be reflected in Vic province pop size. Many things happen during a EU2 GC game that affects pop size. For example: If a province has seen a lot of war, it will have a smaller pop than a province that didn’t. I kinda like to see those effects on my converted game.

Hi guys... back as usual

Regarding the population aspect, I tend to agree with montyp on this thing, again. We are trying to convert the population of your EU2 game onto Victoria, and your game might have been under many different situations which could have made your population, among other things, expand or shrink. We are trying to reflect those things, and if your EU2 game was completely ahistorical (such as a Switzerland superpower) then why bother if China's population is way too low since it's not a xerox of history?

 

[Golden_Deliciou]

Nice test results G_D! Was it with the latest version, the one from yesterday (19th)?

Yeah. Downloaded yesterday afternoon.

In the latest version I boosted pop in China, Indonesia and India (the unpopulated areas in India) with the “extra” tag in the “culture.txt” file. Check it out!

I noticed that the colonies in India (in contrast to everywhere else) had large native populations.

The “average idea” might be hard too realize, as country borders will differ from game to game. And I do not want to read through the entire Vic GC POP files to find an average value.

I was thinking on a province-by-province basis. I guess the total population of each province isn't stored anywhere.

 

[Golden_Deliciou]

I don't much like this idea. It would mean that, say, a France that had occupied all historical British territories save London would have a very thinly stretched population, while London in 1836 would be roughly the same size as Mezico City 150 years later!

No.... the countries' populations would be in proportion to their populations in EU2. Just that the TOTAL world population would be the same as in the Victoria GC.

Not a bad idea. Of course, doesn't solve the problem of underpopulated China, etc.

 

[Emre Yigit]

Aha!

First, to the apple: you're right of course.

But, more importantly, herewith the verdict of the Constantinopolitan jury on the special secret converter available only to those who send gifts of food to montyP in the post:

POPS: China got rammed up from something like 16m population to 80m! Excellent. Now all that is needed is to write a few "extra" populations to another 130-odd states. While we're about it, can we boost US populations too... since the 1820-1836 period did see some serious population growth there?

TECH: Everyone's still civilised. What about an option during the conversion: "Reduce starting tech levels" which automatically deducts 1 level from trade and infra, and 5 from land and naval? (Sez he who nose nutting about raiting kode). Or alternatives for the 1773 and 1795 starting scenarios?

MISSING BLOB IN AFRICA: There used to be a large yellow country in Africa.... it is now missing since I conquered it. However, the original Vic territories are also empty now, since EU2 doesn't extend that far into Africa. Anyway to reduce this emptiness?

MISSING BLOB IN AMERICA: In the events, Bolivia refused to form, since La Paz was not colonised. So I rewrote the events to give Bolivia two alternative "Independence" events which sleep each other depending on which fires. However, there is an awful lot of off-white in South America, which I am thinking will give an excessive amount of prestige to whoever holds the coastal areas. Can this possibly be amended in any way?

EVENTS A LA EMRE: Are now working without glitches, including the possible dominion or satellite status of new American countries and others.

We're (essentially, you're) getting there! Keep up the good work!

1773 scenario used, played so far to 1809. Have played as a game-wrecking OE this time, also to test the independence events for Greece and Egypt.

 

[Golden_Deliciou]

MISSING BLOB IN AMERICA: In the events, Bolivia refused to form, since La Paz was not colonised. So I rewrote the events to give Bolivia two alternative "Independence" events which sleep each other depending on which fires. However, there is an awful lot of off-white in South America, which I am thinking will give an excessive amount of prestige to whoever holds the coastal areas. Can this possibly be amended in any way?

Well it seems reasonable to give this territory to whoever owns the provinces on the edge of the permanent terra incognita. They would have been colonised in the intervening 16 years.

 

[Brownbeard]

i was also thinking about both south america and africa.

fully colonized eu2 brazil should convert into a victoria brazil

also, some mofications would be interesting in west africa, esp. mauretania.

and third: how come kongo does not convert? i think it should be added to that songoku or whatever nation along with other african nations.

 

[unmerged(9404)]

and third: how come kongo does not convert? i think it should be added to that songoku or whatever nation along with other african nations.

Cause I thought it was totally out of place if merged with Sokoto (I already find the merging of all West African countries into Sokoto uncomfertable). As Kongo is either non-influencail on any affairs or conquered by a human I thought it wouldn't be a big miss if they weren't converted. If however more people think it should be merged with Sokoto that can be changed.

 

[Emre Yigit]

My tuppenyworth: Do not merge Kongo with Sokoto. As you say, Sokoto can be massively big as is.

 

[Sute]{h]

TECH: Everyone's still civilised. What about an option during the conversion: "Reduce starting tech levels" which automatically deducts 1 level from trade and infra, and 5 from land and naval? (Sez he who nose nutting about raiting kode). Or alternatives for the 1773 and 1795 starting scenarios?

I'm starting to get the feeling that the problem with this relates to 1773 and 1795. Since my converted savegame from 1419 (AGCEPP though) has plenty of uncivs (my Great Power Inca Empire among them). Also this might cause a great deal of problems with my literacy algorithm, since it depends on trade and infra levels, and if the low tech countries start 1773 and 1795 with a far to high trade and infra, this might be what is causing the higher literacy in the conversion tests. Of course this doesn't solve anything, but it might explain something.

 

[Sute]{h]

Cause I thought it was totally out of place if merged with Sokoto (I already find the merging of all West African countries into Sokoto uncomfertable). As Kongo is either non-influencail on any affairs or conquered by a human I thought it wouldn't be a big miss if they weren't converted. If however more people think it should be merged with Sokoto that can be changed.

Does Victoria have U00-type tags? If it does perhaps we should consider using some of them in some of the merging cases? Especially where merging doesn't make sense. And perhaps even to distinguish certain native american countries from post-colonial american countries, since it will make much more sense event wise... The Aztecs wouldn't be treated as Mexico historically was etc. I know it expands upon the scope of the converter, and might create conflicts with other mods, but that is a price I can learn to live with.

 

[unmerged(9404)]

Does Victoria have U00-type tags? If it does perhaps we should consider using some of them in some of the merging cases? Especially where merging doesn't make sense. And perhaps even to distinguish certain native american countries from post-colonial american countries, since it will make much more sense event wise... The Aztecs wouldn't be treated as Mexico historically was etc. I know it expands upon the scope of the converter, and might create conflicts with other mods, but that is a price I can learn to live with.

Yes it has U00 tags, but its something I don't want to meddle with. And I hope the converter stays only a program that converts and not change files in the Victoria folder.

 

[Sute]{h]

Well the official CK->EU2 converter does use tags that otherwise wouldn't be used in a standard vanilla grand campaign. I see no harm in the EU2Vic doing the same... As long as it doesn't use any other tags than the ones in the U## range.

 

[OriginalRafiki]

Using Uxx-tags would make the converter need lots of new files to be added to the victoria-directories and change some existing ones (e.g. revolt.txt).

If there are a select few tags that would really make life easier for the converter, it's quite possible to petition P'dox for adding them to 1.04; won't help now, but will if/when 1.04 is released.

Rafiki