Help Contribute with new TechTeams - first step

[unmerged(129995)]

How is skill 6 doctrine team for a world power far too strong? Japan's armor team, Hino Automobile, is a skill 5, and we all know that Japan's armor force was abysmal in terms of general design. I think what I'm trying to say is that NatChi and ComChi are currently at a suitable state for their position during the civil war, where innovation stagnated due to the instability. However, once China is reunited, things tend to get a lot better a lot faster.

As for Whampoa...again, skill 1 is dismal for a world power. During the civil war, infighting between cliques in NatChi was rampant, and this weakened the entire structure of the country. However, after driving out the Japanese and destroying the Communists, the country in general should be far more stable and conducive to unhindered study.

Event-driven teams aren't that hard, IIRC. We're going to need the 'China Reunited' event anyways, and another line with 'waketeam' is not going to be much work.

Of course, if you have other suggestions regarding how it can be done, I'm all ears.

Should Yang Chen Ning and/or Lee Tsung Dao be NatChi teams starting in the 50s, with Mathematics and Nuclear Physics? It's impossible for them to be ComChi teams, given that ComChi saw overseas Chinese as traitors during the period of time we're interested in.

EDIT: yeah, why not.

 

[unmerged(119031)]

If there are any famous or significant teams that are not in HoI2, give them here! I think that Nat. Spain can do with only 3 new teams since it doesn't play an important role in the war. So 2 new teams from you would be nice!

Ok, I'll get to it tonight after university. If I'm done in these couple days I'll sign up for some other country.

 

[LodovicoAriosto]

How is skill 6 doctrine team for a world power far too strong? Japan's armor team, Hino Automobile, is a skill 5, and we all know that Japan's armor force was abysmal in terms of general design. I think what I'm trying to say is that NatChi and ComChi are currently at a suitable state for their position during the civil war, where innovation stagnated due to the instability. However, once China is reunited, things tend to get a lot better a lot faster.

As for Whampoa...again, skill 1 is dismal for a world power. During the civil war, infighting between cliques in NatChi was rampant, and this weakened the entire structure of the country. However, after driving out the Japanese and destroying the Communists, the country in general should be far more stable and conducive to unhindered study.

Event-driven teams aren't that hard, IIRC. We're going to need the 'China Reunited' event anyways, and another line with 'waketeam' is not going to be much work.

Of course, if you have other suggestions regarding how it can be done, I'm all ears.

Should Yang Chen Ning and/or Lee Tsung Dao be NatChi teams starting in the 50s, with Mathematics and Nuclear Physics? It's impossible for them to be ComChi teams, given that ComChi saw overseas Chinese as traitors during the period of time we're interested in.

EDIT: yeah, why not.

Ok. You convinced me. Skill 5 or 6 for a land doctrine team is appropriate for post-civil war CommChina. Just post some suggestions. I think that 2 teams for NatChina and 3-5 teams for CommChina (in the late 40s) could be nice, don't you think?

If you want to add some event-triggered teams you should contact Lennartos or anybody else from the AoD dev team. If it is ok on their side, I will welcome it.

But there is one problem. If we add some event-triggered teams, then why don't we add event-triggered teams for every country? For example, Cegorach then would have the full right to ask for event-triggered teams for Poland (Poland liberated, Poland stalinist and so on...).

I try to be fair and I want all countries to be elaborated at the same level, in the same depth. That means: no tens of new teams and some of them event-triggered for, let's say, Greece while adding no or little poor teams for the UK.

The factors which should, IMO, affect the number of teams are these:

1. major or medium power
2. country involved in the war

Effort of the individuals here is not there. If it was there, we would have too many event-triggered teams for Poland, Italy or Czechoslovakia, not for the UK since nobody interested in the UK appeared here so far.

Do you see my point?


EDIT:

Athe: Great! Many thanks. Sign up for another country? Even better! I have a feeling that you, Cegorach, Cardus and me will have to do much work eventually (if we really mean all this seriously)

 

[unmerged(129995)]

Fair enough, LA. Having them appear in 1950 (to simulate rebuilding after the 1949 end to the war) is a viable alternative. My point about them being skill 6, however, IMO is justified. Are teams able to gain/lose skill through the game, though?

 

[LodovicoAriosto]

Fair enough, LA. Having them appear in 1950 (to simulate rebuilding after the 1949 end to the war) is a viable alternative. My point about them being skill 6, however, IMO is justified. Are teams able to gain/lose skill through the game, though?

Ok. You convinced me. Skill 5 or 6 for a land doctrine team is appropriate for post-civil war CommChina. Just post some suggestions. I think that 2 teams for NatChina and 3-5 teams for CommChina (in the late 40s) could be nice, don't you think?

I am not sure but I think that skill cannot be modified during the game. There has to be another team with the same name which will will replace the former team.

I would support this. Maybe you should suggest an upgraded version of that NatChina team which will appear, let's say in 1950 while the earlier version will end in 1949.

I generally think that the average skill of those 50s teams should be around 3. Ok, land doctrine could make an exception - skill 5 is good I think. Don't forget, Italy has skill 4 on the average and China was far from being equal (in techs) to Italy (or any European country) even in the 50s.

EDIT: Please, don't make too much upgraded teams. It is not a standard procedure. Try to focus on some new teams, especially for the 1930s and 1940s.

 

[unmerged(129995)]

The problem with any teams in the 30s is that China was EXTREMELY backwards then. ComChi starting without the ability to build factories is quite realistic, to be honest. And I agree with your assessment of 50s Chinese technology. In particular, neither NatChi nor ComChi should have any Air/Naval Doctrine teams above 2, nor should they have Air/Naval teams above 3, which I think is accurate enough. Stronger Industry teams (so Industrial Engineering, Management, Mechanics, Technical Efficiency, and Chemistry specialties) should be present for both starting in the mid 50s, say skill 4-5. Essentially, the traditional 'ground war' aspects of research should be fairly easy for China (harder then for any other world power, but easier then many regionals). Of course, I'll provide ideas later, right now this is just me thinking.

 

[LodovicoAriosto]

Great_Chairman: I fully agree with your view on things and I am looking forward to your contribution!

 

[Cardus]

1. I got Borghese. But we got stuck in the matter of skill. What do you say about 4? Was he less/equally/more important than Cavagnari who has skill 4?

No Cavagnari was crap but the Italian special forces set an unprecedented and never matched record in the whole history of special forces: between 1941 and 1943 they sunk, or severely damaged, 140,350 (just redone the calculations) tons of Allied warships and 131,527 tons of merchant shipping. Please find below the list
NAME TONNAGE LOCATION DATE
Durham 10,900 Tons Gibraltar Sep, 1941
Baron Douglas 3,900 Tons Gibraltar July, 1942
Raven's Point 1,900 Tons Gibraltar July, 1942
Kaituna 10,000 Tons Mersin July, 1943
Meta 1,600 Tons Gibraltar July, 1942
Camerata 4,900 Tons Gibraltar May, 1943
Stanridge 6,000 Tons Gibraltar Aug, 1943
Queen Elizabeth 32,000 Tons Alexandria Dec, 1941
Valiant 31,000 Tons Alexandria Dec, 1941
Harmattan 4,600 Tons Algiers Dec, 1942
Jervis 1,700 Tons Alexandria Dec, 1941
Mahsud 7,500 Tons Gibraltar May, 1943
Fernplant 7,000 Tons Iskenderun Aug, 1943
Empire Centaur 7,000 Tons Algiers Dec, 1942
HMS York, 10,350 Tons Suda Bay March 1941

So, because of historical (not hypothetical) performances, Borghese deserves 6

2. Reggiane - ok

ok

3. 3 more teams - ok

no only two are left

4. I prefer no change in production. We cannot consider Italy as a special case.

From the historical accuracy this is wrong. Poland, I guess, had such a kind of production's issues.

Hmmm, it seems quite OK. Are you sure that he deserves skill 5? The same level as legendary Balbo or Breda?

I guess that the evidences speak for themselves. Or you find some error or 5 is just because we need to bring the Italian tech to the ground (even against historical evidences) as much as possible in order to avoid any game unbalance

 

[unmerged(119031)]

ASTANO ('Astilleros Navales del Noroeste', Spanish for 'Northwestern Naval Yards')
Skill: 3
Country: SPA/SPR
Start Date: 1941
End Date: 1970
Fields: Naval Engineering, Technical Efficiency, Electronics.

Essentially, a weaker version of 'SECN', having a lower skill level and lacking Naval Artillery, as it was, for most of the game's timespan, essentially a merchant naval yard. It wasn't a really large yard in the beginning, however it grew in the '60s and is a part of todays' Navantia. As the game gives skill increases to the TTs, I find it quite realistic to have this as a rather weak team and see it 'grow'.

Not much info in English, I can get some in Spanish and translate for you, if you so wish. And I'll get a pic and resize it somewhat if you like the team.

Abengoa
Skill: 3
Country: SPA/SPR
Start Date: 1941
End Date: 1970
Fields: Electronics, Mechanics.

It started as a small project and is now a huge multinational corporation. Right now it has expanded to lots of other areas, but in the beginning it was mainly focused on electronics.

Grifols
Skill: 5
Country: SPA/SPR
Start Date: 1940
End Date: 1970
Fields: Chemistry

Decent info about this one on the wiki.

Opinions?

 

[cegorach]

Athe: Great! Many thanks. Sign up for another country? Even better! I have a feeling that you, Cegorach, Cardus and me will have to do much work eventually (if we really mean all this seriously)

Here is what I could do - unfortunatelly neither is among the most important and requested priorities of this project :

Belorus, Ukraine, Georgia, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Siam and probably Yugoslavia. I have decent knowledge about each of those countries (excluding YUG).
The problem is that vanilla teams in almost all those cases are badly prepared - dead people, fantasy teams, foreigners etc. and it means I would have to re-work the files completely. This seems rather too much considering the fact they play little part in the game or are revolter states.

I guess Bulgaria or Siam can be improved more easily and without causing too much mess or making the project to complicated. In addition in both cases it would result in one-two new teams with one-two teams removed from the initial set up...

I really cannot deal with any of the 'big boys' - each case would require a lot of time, much more than medium-sized or smaller countries.
So when it comes to ENG, USA, SOV or JAP I cannot help much...

 

[cegorach]

From the historical accuracy this is wrong. Poland, I guess, had such a kind of production's issues.

Not really - in game terms it would be simply IC - the way it is allocated and all.

Aircraft factories had decent capabilities, second largest aircraft company in Poland - the PWS alone produced 1600+ airplanes in the 1930s, although it was mostly trainers.

In September 1939 Poland had 890 combat airplanes - 400 of them in units, the rest in reserve or flight schools and all were produced in Poland. Over 200 were evacutated to Romania and Latvia after the Red Army invaded.


If there are special rules to produce something it should be discussed in a separate thread. I don't dismiss them because there could be issues with technology, more exotic metals which were hard to get etc, but it has little to do with TTs.

 

[LodovicoAriosto]

No Cavagnari was crap but the Italian special forces set an unprecedented and never matched record in the whole history of special forces

Ok. I am ready to accept skill 6 for Borghese. But on some conditions:

1. You take the full responsibility of any gameplay unbalance (Italy too good with subs in Mediterrenean).

2. You take the full responsibility of anyone challenging your choice and judgement.

3. The other 4 teams you will propose will have average skill 3.5-4 and not a single team will have skill higher than 5.

Agreed?

ASTANO ('Astilleros Navales del Noroeste', Spanish for 'Northwestern Naval Yards')
Skill: 3
Country: SPA/SPR
Start Date: 1941
End Date: 1970
Fields: Naval Engineering, Technical Efficiency, Electronics.

Essentially, a weaker version of 'SECN', having a lower skill level and lacking Naval Artillery, as it was, for most of the game's timespan, essentially a merchant naval yard. It wasn't a really large yard in the beginning, however it grew in the '60s and is a part of todays' Navantia. As the game gives skill increases to the TTs, I find it quite realistic to have this as a rather weak team and see it 'grow'.

Not much info in English, I can get some in Spanish and translate for you, if you so wish. And I'll get a pic and resize it somewhat if you like the team.

Abengoa
Skill: 3
Country: SPA/SPR
Start Date: 1941
End Date: 1970
Fields: Electronics, Mechanics.

It started as a small project and is now a huge multinational corporation. Right now it has expanded to lots of other areas, but in the beginning it was mainly focused on electronics.

Grifols
Skill: 5
Country: SPA/SPR
Start Date: 1940
End Date: 1970
Fields: Chemistry

Decent info about this one on the wiki.

Opinions?

Excellent. I believe your judgement - the teams are crappy enough

So both Spains can be declared finished unless anyone challenges your work.

Thank you very much and please consider what country you could handle as well. Maybe Brazil or Argentina? Or anything else?

I guess Bulgaria or Siam can be improved more easily and without causing too much mess or making the project to complicated. In addition in both cases it would result in one-two new teams with one-two teams removed from the initial set up...

Thank you. What do you say on this?:

Lithuania - one new team?
Estonia - one new team?
Bulgaria - a careful overhaul? (one-two teams away, two or three teams in)
Siam - the same as Bulgaria?



BTW, I revised my proposal of tech teams for CZE

Here are tech teams from HoI2. The last 3 teams are my suggestions:






I merged two flying aces to the school which they attended. It was Vojenské letecké učiliště in Prostějov.

Start date 1930 (default)
End date 1970 (default)

(it lasted from 1938 to 1973)



Alas, there is no article at English wikipedia. Here is a brief info in Czech, you can throw it into google translator.

Info on VLU Prostějov

 

[Cardus]

Ok. I am ready to accept skill 6 for Borghese. But on some conditions:

1. You take the full responsibility of any gameplay unbalance (Italy too good with subs in Mediterrenean).

Sorry I think that one matter is prejudice and another is history. I think that facts are more relevant than opinions. Regarding Italian special forces I brought evidences with references (between 1941 and 1943 Italian special forces sunk, or severely damaged, 140,350 tons of Allied warships and 131,527 tons of merchant shipping). The alternative solution in order to represent what really happened would be a set of events or a special unit (the "maiale") specific for Italy.
I think that this second option is not suitable.

I did some tests based on skills 6 and please below my results:
- Playing as Italy without trying any exploit (e.g. normal submarine building) I'm able to sink some convoys (about 20 a month, sometimes less because the convoys are "too heavily protected") in the Mediterranean with 5-6 fleets operational (some submarines are crippled and are in port for repairs). Each fleet is composed by 3/4 submarines.
- Playing as UK I notice some convoy loss but nothing worrisome because if I cannot use the destroyers for patrolling I simply add some more escorts and that almost close the issue.

I'm strongly invite anyone in doing some tests as well

EDIT

I'm still reviewing the Italian tech teams and doing some tests (Arma beta patch) in order to keep the game balance.

Regarding Caproni I think that the right skill should be 4 because of crappy airplanes (as usual the engine was too much underpowered). What I would add is the jet speciality in fact:

- 1931 early studies by Campini
- 1934 Regia Aeronautica granted approval for the development of a jet aircraft to demonstrate the principle
- August 1940 Caproni Campini N.1 early motor jet fighter successfully tested; afterwards nothing happened - the issue, as usual, was the engine - (reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caproni_Campini_N.1)

A concurrent project was the Stipa-Caproni

- early studies in the 1920s by Luigi Stipa
- 1932 successful tests on a prototype, afterwards project abandoned
- The Princeton University Press in "High Speed Aerodynamics and Jet Propulsion" reported "The Stipa Aeroplane built by Caproni in 1932 should be classified as a Jet Aircraft. 'The Stipe Aeroplane can be considered as a predecessor of the Jet Aircraft of today". (reference http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipa-Caproni)

 

[Cardus]

Chemistry

If Grifols is 5 in chemistry Giulio Natta (Nobel prize in chemistry) what should be?

 

[unmerged(119031)]

If Grifols is 5 in chemistry Giulio Natta (Nobel prize in chemistry) what should be?

Natta got his Nobel Prize in 1963, so at game start he should be a crappy team, 'earning' his Nobel over time. Plus he has more fields than Grifols (which, at the moment, is a world leader in chemical and pharmaceutical products) which makes him an overall better team.

Pic for ASTANO


Pic for Abengoa



Pic for Grifols


This guys should really get some better logos.

 

[Cardus]

Natta got his Nobel Prize in 1963, so at game start he should be a crappy team, 'earning' his Nobel over time. Plus he has more fields than Grifols (which, at the moment, is a world leader in chemical and pharmaceutical products) which makes him an overall better team..

Point A) You should know that a Nobel Prize can be assigned much later the research. In our case Natta got the prize for a research made in 1953:

"Prof. Natta extended the research conducted by Ziegler on organometallic catalysts to the stereospecific polymerization, thus discovering new classes of polymers with a sterically ordered structure, viz. isotactic, syndiotactic and di-isotactic polymers and linear non branched olefinic polymers and copolymers with an atactic (or sterically nonordered) structure. These studies, which were developed for industrial application in Montecatini's laboratories, led to the realisation of a thermoplastic material, isotactic polypropylene, which Montecatini were the first to produce on an industrial scale" from http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1963/natta-bio.html

Point B) Now let us see whether Natta was nobody before 1953 without any important assignment

"In 1933 he was established on the staff of Pavia University as a full professor and at the same time was appointed director of the Institute of General Chemistry at that University, where he stayed till 1935, that is until he was appointed full professor in physical chemistry at the University of Rome."

"From 1936 to 1938 he was full professor and director of the Institute of Industrial Chemistry at the Polytechnic of Turin. He has been full professor and director of the Department of Industrial Chemistry at the Milan Polytechnic since 1938."

from http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1963/natta-bio.html

So we understood that Natta started in 1933 and he was appointed director in 1936

Point C) Now let us see whether Natta discovered something before 1943 or if he was a crap scientist as you described

"In 1938 Prof. Natta began to study the production of synthetic rubber in Italy; he took part in research work on butadiene and was the first to accomplish physical separation of butadiene from 1-butadiene by a new method of extractive distillation."

from http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1963/natta-bio.html

Are you convinced that Natta was not so crap or do you need some more evidences?

 

[unmerged(119031)]

Point A) You should know that a Nobel Prize can be assigned much later the research. In our case Natta got the prize for a research made in 1953

So you're planning on increasing his skill 17 years before he got his major discovery? He may have been a teacher, director or whatever, but we can't just go around boosting current TTs based on our personal opinion. Oh, and btw, he became director in Milan because the director at the time was demoted for being jewish. I seriously doubt that's something to be reflected via skill lvl.

Italy has a single lvl 6 TT (Actually 2, but Fermi dissapears in '38), which is WAD, and you give him Borghese as lvl 6, and now you want to give Natta a higher skill lvl? Natta has 3 research fields and skill 4, which makes him a pretty decent team already. If he gains skill over time, he'll probably be a decent team by the time the game hits '53. But mate, you can't overpower Italy just because you think they deserve more than they have. It's beyond the scope of our 'project' to change the way the game works, we are here to add more Tech Teams or at the most change the existing ones, but according to certain logic. From my point of view, Italy has to have an average skill lvl of just over 4, just by checking the current TTs and that's what you should aim for. You gave them a skill 6 already, don't you think that's a little too much?

 

[Cardus]

Nuclear research

Italy was a leading country in nuclear research in the interwar period until 1938 when Fermi left the country (6th Dec 1938) and its team - called the Via Panisperna boys - dispersed.

Fermi got the Nobel Prize in 1938 for an experiment made in 1934.
- He and its team "in 1934, they made the famous discovery of slow neutrons which made later possible the nuclear reactor, and then the construction of the first atomic bomb."
- "On the theoretical side, the work of Majorana and Fermi enabled the understanding of the structure of the atomic nucleus and the forces acting in it, known as the Majorana Forces. In 1933 and 1934 they published the fundamental theory of beta decay." From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Panisperna_boys


As above mentioned the team dispersed and many of them emigrated to USA. The only left was Amaldi which was good but no a genius like Fermi and without significatively funding. For this reason I would say that he should be skilled 4. Please find the link to the picture http://www.liceicarbonia.it/immagini/Amaldi33.jpg. I have to think and perform some tests about the Amaldi's specialities.

Hence my proposal for Italy is to raise the skills for Fermi to 8. He should leave the country the 6th Dec 1938 and he should be replaced by Amaldi skills 4.

At the other side of the Ocean, for USA, I would drastically lower down to 4 the skills in nuclear research at least until 1939.

 

[Cardus]

So you're planning on increasing his skill 17 years before he got his major discovery? He may have been a teacher, director or whatever, but we can't just go around boosting current TTs based on our personal opinion. Oh, and btw, he became director in Milan because the director at the time was demoted for being jewish. I seriously doubt that's something to be reflected via skill lvl.

I took this research seriously and I'm doing a deep review of Italian tech teams trying to distinguish between opinions and facts. Based only on the facts I'm trying to be as much fair as I can. Please note that all the posts I made are with their respective references. This means that if you want to discuss about facts I'm available otherwise I can't help.

Regarding facts you did a second mistake: the first was attributing to Natta a Nobel Prize (1963) on the same instant he did the research and now saying that he was appointed director because "the director at the time was demoted for being jewish". I would like to suggest you to read more carefully what has been written/quoted. Natta before being appointed director in Milan in 1938 was already "director of the Institute of Industrial Chemistry at the Polytechnic of Turin".

Last but not least I reported a major research done by Natta (and quoted by the Noble prize Academy which should tell you something) in 1938: "In 1938 Prof. Natta began to study the production of synthetic rubber in Italy; he took part in research work on butadiene and was the first to accomplish physical separation of butadiene from 1-butadiene by a new method of extractive distillation."

I agree that this wasn't the research that granted the Nobel Prize to Natta but, on the other hand, you cannot discard it because it doesn't match your personal opinions.

 

[unmerged(119031)]

Italy was a leading country in nuclear research in the interwar period until 1938 when Fermi left the country (6th Dec 1938) and its team - called the Via Panisperna boys - dispersed.

Fermi got the Nobel Prize in 1938 for an experiment made in 1934.
- He and its team "in 1934, they made the famous discovery of slow neutrons which made later possible the nuclear reactor, and then the construction of the first atomic bomb."
- "On the theoretical side, the work of Majorana and Fermi enabled the understanding of the structure of the atomic nucleus and the forces acting in it, known as the Majorana Forces. In 1933 and 1934 they published the fundamental theory of beta decay." From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Panisperna_boys


As above mentioned the team dispersed and many of them emigrated to USA. The only left was Amaldi which was good but no a genius like Fermi and without significatively funding. For this reason I would say that he should be skilled 4. Please find the link to the picture http://www.liceicarbonia.it/immagini/Amaldi33.jpg. I have to think and perform some tests about the Amaldi's specialities.

Hence my proposal for Italy is to raise the skills for Fermi to 8. He should leave the country the 6th Dec 1938 and he should be replaced by Amaldi skills 4.

At the other side of the Ocean, for USA, I would drastically lower down to 4 the skills in nuclear research at least until 1939.

Yeah, I agree on Amaldi, and the End Date for Fermi could be moved to 1939. But I still think you're trying to give the Italians far more bang for their buck.