dec152000 said:
Hi,
I've considered giving FIN (and maybe NOR/SWE) the 1939 Winter tech at game start. But I decided not to just yet without seeing how it played without it. When it comes right down to it I'd think that the SOV should be about equal to them in winter equipment. After all, the Winter War didn't go bad because SOV equipment failed in the cold. Also FIN is getting a number of winter advantages due to the climate techs it starts with. So they will perfrom quite well in cold weather, especially if they are fighting a warm weather opponent like ITA.
mm
The SU definitely did not have the winter equipment matching the Finns's equipment. Moreover, most of the Soviet soldiers in the winter war had little if any experience with winter warfare survival skills because they were conscripted from areas in the SU with mild winters. In comparison Finland had a great advantage due to the Finns fighting under winter conditions they were familiar with, not to mention the economy was mostly agrarian still. I've myself grown up in Scandinavia and learned how to go cross country skiing and how to survive under winter conditions (should you get lost, injured etc.) from a young age.
Back to the winter war: Lots and lots of SU soldiers froze to death, even more so after they were encircled and cut off from their supply lines. (Actually one could claim the Finns developed some sort of a winter warfare doctrine, with mobile skiers well equipped encircling and taking out SU divisons in wooden terrain. My idea was that Mountain troups + skiing doctrine would make the mountain troops very mobile and efficient in winter terrain, and especially mountain, hills and woods). This does not only go for the Finns. The SU had similar benefits when Stalin transferred a few Siberian divisions to counter-attack the Germans outside Moscow in the early winter of 1941, and the best jager-troops the Germans had were actually Austrians. In Norway such Austrian skiing troops were used in the mountains against Norwegian milits who were hiding in the mountains in between attacks on the Germans. So in my opinion some winter warfare doctrine or bonus in combination with mountain troops would give the benefits that the Finns had in the woods north of the Mannerheim-line. It should be stressed though that much of the action in the winter war happened at the southern defense lines, with horrendous assaults by the Soviets against the Finnish defense lines. In the north though SU troops and logistics were too poor to perform well against these Finnish mobile skiing troops, and it was this advantage that managed relatively few Finnish troops to defeat and prevent the SU from cutting Finland in two and also to hunt down these encircled "motti" north of the major battles against the Mannerheim line.
Regarding HOI2 DD I also think the SU keep way too many divisions in the north along the Finnish border. The Finns actually (miscalculated) that there would be no major attack to the north due to the inefficiency of the SU supply lines. This proved wrong, due to a railroad, but nevertheless the 4-5 to 10 divisions the SU stack in each of these provinces is way too much. A couple divisions perhaps in each province up to Murmansk, with the rest being sent over and over again against Viborg and a few trying to go through Sortavalta. That is the more historical scenario.
So, to sum up: Mountain troops + winter tech/doctrine should give mountaineers a very good advantage (speed, fighting capacity) in winter-climate, including woods. SU should have less divisions along the border north of the province bordering Sortavalta, and most attempts should be spent on trying to go through the Viborg defense lines, which would become costly for the SU. SU AI should thus not send lots of divisions north along the border and thus "go from behind" by sending a huge army through Kajani (while no action is taken from Leningrad against Viborg, which is where the SU would try to push through with repeated attacks).
P.S. When I say mountain troops I think about them as "jeger", i.e. better trained and more mobile units where the best conscripts have proven themselves worthy of such service. When I was in the regular Norwegian army's reserves (well, I am still but...) a company typically has 3 regular platoons and one jeger (hunter) platoon, where the latter is more mobile and aggressive, patrolling and seeking the enemy, whereas the former is more stationary (consisting of regular conscripts). However, even as a regular conscript I have myself had to go skiing in mountainous terrain dragging a sled loaded with a machine gun and lots of ammunition and supplies after me... And please don't remind me how it is to ski downhill with such a sled. Two men tied to the sledge with ropes trying to hold it back while you are in front being pushed forward downhill by this monster, hoping every second you won't lose control of your steering and crash with a tree... So, given that the Finns were used to ski and live an outdoor life, many of their regular conscripts were as tough (to adopt to a tough winter climate) as the mountaineers of many other nations. A doctrine would nevertheless be the better way of ensuring some Finnish supremacy in the mobile woodland warfare at winter time, whereas the LACK of a similar doctrine (which also the Germans faced in winter 1941) would lead to severe losses if assaulting against fortified or dug in enemy forces, like the SU divisions did against the Mannerheim line. The whole problem then regards the Finns underperforming against the SU would be to make such a doctrine and have the SU AI pull most of its divisions down to Leningrad and attack (stupidly) against the Viborg province.
It should also be remembered that even if the Finns gave up due to lack of reserves/organisation/ammunition, what is less known is that the SU, despite winning ground somewhat due to bringing in enforcements, were also incapable of fighting on due to lack of organisation when there finally was a cease fire. Stalin was more than happy to end the attack on Finland. Had the Finns been better supplied with arms to set up more reserves and had more ammunition (particulary artillery ammunition) they may have hold on much longer and possibly made an end to the winter war without accepting an undonditional loss, and as such losing Viborg and Sortavalta. A human player managing to increase the AI Finland's historical position (more divisions, more supplies) should thus stand a chance of holding out against the SU id the SU AI just continues attacking the Mannerheim line...
