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I think perhaps what the US delegation is looking for here is some kind of American veto on the peace proposals 1.1 and 1.2? Possibly a veto where the US gets to reject making peace with Japan and continue a limited war? In which case the effect could be to keep all parties inside the conference but anything and everything related to bilateral US-Japanese territorial concessions would be taken off the table.
Actually that makes sense. After all, whilst the US is currently in the Comintern, it is clear that they are their own power in a different area of the world, and much more interested in the Pacific than the rest of the alliance. Thus, it would make sense for the US to reject a peace and pursue a limited war, at least as an option.
I would agree that a US veto over Proposition 1.1 makes sense, as they are the only other power with a significant investment in the war with Japan - Turkey is no longer actively engaged on the Russo-Japanese front, and the minor powers have no involvement aside from France who cannot back up a veto so far abroad.

However I do not think a US veto over Proposition 1.2 makes any sense. There is no point in the US having a veto here while the UK does not, and I trust that our esteemed Secretary-General already chose not to give the UK a veto over Proposition 1.2 for good reasons.

Less objectively, I would note that any change to the items of Proposition 1 so late in the week is liable to upset any number of in-progress proceedings which hinge on that proposition, some already the product of multiple days' discussions. Of course, any changes to a later round would also have potential for upsetting deals being made currently, but I think this is more manageable should our gracious host see a pressing need for such changes.
 
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Lend Lease figures and amendment of Proposition 22 (Polish cessions) and Outcome 23.4 (German Partition)
Memo from the Desk of the Secretary General

fZKXQ0.jpg

First, some promised factual information on Lend Lease provision over the last few years. The yellow highlight is the provider, the countries to the right the recipeints, in daily IC transfers at sample times chosen from the last few years.

XHQbyE.jpg


On Proposition 1: there will be no veto for the US on Proposition 1.1. Apart from it being a bit late in the process, the lack of a veto was deliberate. The consensus of world leaders (ie me ;)) agreed that the US had really not done enough against Japan or had that much skin/occupied territory in the game (their former puppet the Philippines having been written off) to warrant a separate veto. They will have to try to exert their interests via the votes. The only veto for 1.2 is deliberately given to Japan, as it would force them to concede ground, just in case they wanted to opt for death or glory instead, despite the risks and costs.

On Proposition 22: As raised by Germany.
After long deliberation we have come to the conclusion that proposition 22 seems unfairly biased in favour of Turkey and against Germany. There is no scenario where Germany retains most of it's eastern territories while the Turkish enclave in Eastern Prussia is ceded to Poland, but there is a scenario where Turkey retains it's Baltic enclave while Germany cedes all of it's Eastern territory to Poland.
Any 'bias' against Germany is deliberate in this case, as mentioned before, as a losing power. They do at least have an opportunity to avoid the cessions, though it will no doubt be a difficult achievement.

As to the Turkish enclave issue, as mentioned before, I do agree this part is clunky. At the risk of perhaps affecting initial negotiations pertaining to this Proposition and trying to keep things as simple as possible, option 22.2 is eliminated (simply mentally delete it from your individual score sheets). The scores for 22.1 and 22.3 remain the same. The cession for Poland is now treated as a job lot, but Turkey can exercise a veto over its cession if it really wishes to, but at an increased penalty (and no change to the scores of other countries if 22.1 gets up). Still no veto to Germany.

btcFRC.jpg
**Edit: My bad, I mistakenly had Poland as the veto instead of Turkey. :rolleyes:
On Proposition 23: In reviewing this, it became apparent that an omission was made in case the German cession is not made under Proposition 22. And it has a direct bearing on viewpoints and votes.

The question if the cession is not made but Germany is eventually partitioned (ie 23.4 enforced due to a veto being applied under 23.1-3), what happens to the part of eastern Germany/Prussia that was not ceded? This has the potential to complicate things, but something has to be done about it.

The proposal is that eastern Germany would therefore be included in the partition of Germany, so it remains as part of Northern (Soviet puppeted) or Southern (Turkish puppeted) Germany and is divided between them on partition per the attached map. The Secretariat is willing to hear arguments on this proposed solution, in public session. [OOC: if anyone can think of a better way of handling it without completely changing the proposal structure, I'm all ears].

MHdVRt.jpg

Map to be used for the partition of Germany under Outcome 23.4 if the cession of territory is not made to Poland in Proposition 22.

The original (the Polish cession included) German partition map is included below, for comparison.

0V82Qt.jpg
 
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On Proposition 1: there will be no veto for the US on Proposition 1.1. Apart from it being a bit late in the process, the lack of a veto was deliberate. The consensus of world leaders (ie me ;)) agreed that the US had really not done enough against Japan or had that much skin/occupied territory in the game (their former puppet the Philippines having been written off) to warrant a separate veto.

I fully understand your position on Proposition 1. A neater and simpler option might have been to allow the US to veto Japan's occupation of the Philippines in Round 2 at the cost of continuing a limited war, but I do realise it's rather too late in the day to be making major changes to the rules now. This discussion is largely academic. :)

The cession for Poland is now treated as a job lot, but Turkey can exercise a veto over its cession if it really wishes to, but at an increased penalty (and no change to the scores of other countries if 22.1 gets up).

This part leads me to ask a question about the application of the voting rules. Let's say we have a proposition with options (a) and (b) and suppose option (a) scores +10 points and option (b) scores -5 points. Now let's say option (a) is adopted by the conference and is then vetoed by another country, defaulting the outcome to option (b). What score do I get? Do 1 get +10 points for winning the vote or -5 points for the evenutal outcome?

EDIT: I think I have resolved this question myself. The points scores following a veto are listed in the spreadsheet on a case-by-case basis, aren't they?
 
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I fully understand your position on Proposition 1. A neater and simpler option might have been to allow the US to veto Japan's occupation of the Philippines in Round 2 at the cost of continuing a limited war, but I do realise it's rather too late in the day to be making major changes to the rules now. This discussion is largely academic. :)
That would have been a possibility; I did briefly consider something along those lines, but thought the Phil’s so far behind the lines, and they had only been a puppet rather than sovereign territory, so didn’t give them the opportunity. They can at least try to bargain for their independence and try to convince the Japanese not to veto.
This part leads me to ask a question about the application of the voting rules. Let's say we have a proposition with options (a) and (b) and suppose option (a) scores +10 points and option (b) scores -5 points. Now let's say option (a) is adopted by the conference and is then vetoed by another country, defaulting the outcome to option (b). What score do I get? Do 1 get +10 points for winning the vote or -5 points for the evenutal outcome?

EDIT: I think I have resolved this question myself. The points scores following a veto are listed in the spreadsheet on a case-by-case basis, aren't they?
Yes, that’s right. Basically it’s results based, rather than vote based. In some cases, the vetoing power gets an additional points penalty too, as well as the standard veto vote penalty. Case by case.
 
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The proposal is that eastern Germany would therefore be included in the partition of Germany, so it remains as part of Northern (Soviet puppeted) or Southern (Turkish puppeted) Germany and is divided between them on partition per the attached map. The Secretariat is willing to hear arguments on this proposed solution, in public session. [OOC: if anyone can think of a better way of handling it without completely changing the proposal structure, I'm all ears].
I think this proposal is fine. The question of the Turkish enclave can be resolved between Turkey, the USSR, and their client states in the post-war future. Beyond the existing proposals which are necessary to establish a post-war "initial state" so to speak, the details are not necessary for the resolution of global peace.
 
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I think this proposal is fine. The question of the Turkish enclave can be resolved between Turkey, the USSR, and their client states in the post-war future. Beyond the existing proposals which are necessary to establish a post-war "initial state" so to speak, the details are not necessary for the resolution of global peace.

I know me and Turkey are super duper friends, but I would hope at the very least we could resolve any border gore between our two nations...good grief.
 
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The proposal is that eastern Germany would therefore be included in the partition of Germany, so it remains as part of Northern (Soviet puppeted) or Southern (Turkish puppeted) Germany and is divided between them on partition per the attached map. The Secretariat is willing to hear arguments on this proposed solution, in public session. [OOC: if anyone can think of a better way of handling it without completely changing the proposal structure, I'm all ears].

MHdVRt.jpg

Map to be used for the partition of Germany under Outcome 23.4 if the cession of territory is not made to Poland in Proposition 22.
OOC: In the described eventuality where no territory is ceded to Poland in proposition 22, and a Soviet or Turkish veto forced partition, I assumed that this was also an implied veto of prop 22 resulting in both the cessation of territory to Poland and the partition of the rest of Germany. This new map gives South Germany more territory than I would have expected, but it does look interesting and increases the number of possible scenarios. The border gore is real, and I'm sure the definitive borders will have to be hashed out in a bilateral treaty between Turkey and the USSR. I do wonder whether the Northern German enclave wouldn't simply be annexed by the Soviet Union as part of the Lithuania SSR in this scenario.
 
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The question of the Turkish enclave can be resolved between Turkey, the USSR, and their client states in the post-war future. Beyond the existing proposals which are necessary to establish a post-war "initial state" so to speak, the details are not necessary for the resolution of global peace.
This was very much the thought process I had in mind.
I know me and Turkey are super duper friends, but I would hope at the very least we could resolve any border gore between our two nations...good grief.
Correct. It’s a very messy problem. I had to keep as much of the two Germanys contiguous as I could, and also not skew the result too much that one side did obviously too much better out of a non-cession partitioned Germany than the other. Noting also that, as in OTL, these would be notionally independent countries rather than formally occupied territory.
OOC: In the described eventuality where no territory is ceded to Poland in proposition 22, and a Soviet or Turkish veto forced partition, I assumed that this was also an implied veto of prop 22 resulting in both the cessation of territory to Poland and the partition of the rest of Germany. This new map gives South Germany more territory than I would have expected, but it does look interesting and increases the number of possible scenarios. The border gore is real, and I'm sure the definitive borders will have to be hashed out in a bilateral treaty between Turkey and the USSR. I do wonder whether the Northern German enclave wouldn't simply be annexed by the Soviet Union as part of the Lithuania SSR in this scenario.
I did consider that East Prussian fragment going to the Soviets as an annex, but didn’t want to provide additional temptation for a skewed vote re Polish future territorial integrity on the cession issue. But it’s all horribly untidy, of course. I wanted a bit of the Versailles spirit left in there and this is still the League of Nations too. ;)
 
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I would be fascinated to see how the USSR and UGNR evolve once their founders are dead or retired, and are into the post war rebuilding. What lessons do they learn from each other, how do they view their constituent parts and puppets? Who ends up actually benefiting from being under their control and who voluntarily sticks with them once the rebuild is done?

Every GP has these sorts of interesting questions to wonder about though, because this end result is going to be similar but still quite different to OTL. And possibly, that's a good thing.
 
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Just for reference, as I had a query, here is the Burma/Myanmar map that would be used to delineate it in-game/ATL if it comes to Round 2 voting.

uUtsQc.jpg

And towards the end, if it comes to a partition of India, Bangladesh here would be converted to East Pakistan (a la OTL): just to show ridiculous and unsustainable ATL border gore is entirely in keeping with OTL. :p
 
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And towards the end, if it comes to a partition of India, Bangladesh here would be converted to East Pakistan (a la OTL): just to show ridiculous and unsustainable ATL border gore is entirely in keeping with OTL. :p

It may be better to see if TTL british can do any better than that...
 
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Depending on events, it may be out of their hands ... :eek:

That's true. Give the whole world to good old Uncle K. He'll make sure there's no border gore...

EDIT: The individual that respectfully disagreed will be respectfully sent to a rehabilitation to cure them of their madness.
 
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Understanding from Butterfly that events here draw faster and faster towards a close, I’ve been jolted into action again with the catching-up effort. Preferring pace to close analysis (perhaps unfairly) I’ve neglected to do a play-by-play of my favourite moments from the chapters I’ve covered, but I just wanted to let you know that I’m still plugging away, @Bullfilter! I’ve just read the dramatic first capture and subsequent loss of Timisoara, which was expertly crafted and incredibly tense. Now if only we can hurry up and find out the identity of this damned ‘Thorn’ I might be able to sleep soundly tonight… :D
 
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Understanding from Butterfly
It's General Secretary now, Comrade.
I’ve just read the dramatic first capture and subsequent loss of Timisoara
I couldn't believe in my own game that Romania defended Timisoara to the death, even at the expense of the rest of the country. Just something about it, I guess...
 
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It's General Secretary now, Comrade.
I feel I should be greeting you henceforth with some sort of fraternal kiss… but then with Kelebek around that would seem unspeakably irresponsible.
 
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I feel I should be greeting you henceforth with some sort of fraternal kiss… but then with Kelebek around that would seem unspeakably irresponsible.
That's true. Someone accidentally made me dictator of the Soviet Union rather than the power behind the throne in Ankara.

sigh. I'll be happy when I can go back to being that creepy demonic mastermind rather than Stalin.

And it's been fun negotiating with our beloved Turkey, after so many years of watching and helping it grow. I really do think that, if all things go to plan, the future is bright for Europe (at least).
 
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I would love to do a report on these negotiations afterwards, especially if people are comfortable sharing their PMs. This is fun!
 
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I would love to do a report on these negotiations afterwards, especially if people are comfortable sharing their PMs. This is fun!
I'm anticipating sharing my thoughts on general strategy and happenings once the Conference is concluded. I'm expecting some very interesting stories behind various hijinks, and of course a blunt "<bleep> everybody else" from the United States. /gentleribbing
 
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