Talking Turkey: Alternate History from 1936

[DensleyBlair]

A mere 613 days after first making my entrance into this indomitable thread (yes.. I did look it up ) I have finally reached that fabled state – long thought a simple children's myth by travellers less firmly possessed of their minerals – known to the select few who inhabit it as 'All Caught Up'.

Truly, this is a day which will live in infa... uh, world history!

Anyway, as anticlimactic as it may be, what else is there to say other than simply: Bravo? This is obviously the unrivalled AAR of the decade, and I'm only sorry I didn't get more of a wiggle on when first reading in October 2020. It would have been amazing to have followed along in real time – but I can take more than enough solace in the fact that reading the thing all in one go is an exceptionally enjoyable experience. Congratulations @Bullfilter on an astonishing achievement of AAR-craft.

Oh, and it would be remiss of me not to say how much I enjoyed the closing scenes with Operation Kino. Shoshanna and company will always have a special place in my heart

If it is not too opportunistic of me (but then, present company considered, perhaps opportunism is a virtue? ) I would be very happy to take on the Spanish role, which if I've not missed something I understand is still vacant. My credentials in the field of post-war Western European leftist madness are at your service, should you have need of them @Bullfilter

 

[Bullfilter]

A mere 613 days after first making my entrance into this indomitable thread (yes.. I did look it up ) I have finally reached that fabled state – long thought a simple children's myth by travellers less firmly possessed of their minerals – known to the select few who inhabit it as 'All Caught Up'.

Truly, this is a day which will live in infa... uh, world history!

I am in awe of this exceeding dedication - I am grateful and humbled.

Anyway, as anticlimactic as it may be, what else is there to say other than simply: Bravo? This is obviously the unrivalled AAR of the decade, and I'm only sorry I didn't get more of a wiggle on when first reading in October 2020. It would have been amazing to have followed along in real time – but I can take more than enough solace in the fact that reading the thing all in one go is an exceptionally enjoyable experience. Congratulations @Bullfilter on an astonishing achievement of AAR-craft.

These are very kind words indeed, and I'm speechless. My first AAR has gone on a bit longer than I'd anticipated when I started it, and writing it and the others started since have helped me grow as a writAAR, I hope. Thank you so much - you will now remember much more of the folklore than me!!

Oh, and it would be remiss of me not to say how much I enjoyed the closing scenes with Operation Kino. Shoshanna and company will always have a special place in my heart

I thought they needed a dramatic and over-the-top send off, and what better way than via the 'Basterds'?

If it is not too opportunistic of me (but then, present company considered, perhaps opportunism is a virtue? ) I would be very happy to take on the Spanish role, which if I've not missed something I understand is still vacant. My credentials in the field of post-war Western European leftist madness are at your service, should you have need of them @Bullfilter

You are very welcome indeed to do so. There are still enough days, I think, for the new Spanish negotiation team to confer with their new leader sent direct from Madrid, having only just been sworn in. Welcome to the Bear Pit of the Geneva Conference! I will quickly send you the confidential Spanish voting sheet, so you know what's what with that. The background blurb I've provided others would take a bit longer (bed time here), but having just read right through and with the voting sheet, you probably don't need it. I'll let you get acquainted with your colleagues.

 

[Bullfilter]

A reminder to all that votes for Round Two are due in less than a day (1000hr GMT 21 June).

SG LN

 

[Bullfilter]

From the Desk of the Secretary General​

Although the Plenary Forum of the Conference has remained quiet in recent days, I am well aware that the smoke-filled side rooms have been a veritable hive of activity. While we will aim to have voting completed by the set deadline, we will ensure that a little extra time can be granted if necessary to finalise negotiations and submit votes, but that such an extension will last for no more than one day (that is, until 1000hr on 22 June), at which time all votes must be cast and will be tallied.

SG LN

 

[Bullfilter]

An advertisement here from your sponsor:

Almost by accident, with two of my AARs finishing their gameplay phase (this one and Civis Romanus Sum), I have surprised myself and kicked off a brand new HOI4 AAR. Anyone reading this work may care to have a look. It will be a little bit of a 'Talking Turkey Light' format, obviously using the more political/event and focus driven HOI4 format, but with some modified history incorporated into it.

It will be a shorter, sharper format and chapter length than has become the norm with TT, and I plan to finish it sooner (the HOI4 format seems to lead in that direction too). But there will still be key battle summaries down the track, albeit in the new format.

For those interested here is the link, which is also now in my updated signature: Poles Apart – an HOI4 Ahistory.

 

[Wraith11B]

See, you plan to finish it soon... but as we all know, thing definitely take on a mind of their own!

 

[Bullfilter]

To ensure everyone gets to finish any last negotiations and record their votes, I am officially extending the deadline as discussed above by one day (1000 GMT 22 June), unless all votes are in before that time. Whatever I have (or don't have, default voting rules apply) will be tallied at the appointed time.

SG LN

 

[nuclearslurpee]

See, you plan to finish it soon... but as we all know, thing definitely take on a mind of their own!

The closer Germany and/or Uncle Joe get to Warsaw, the slower time progresses and the more gangster movie hijinks ensue!

 

[Bullfilter]

See, you plan to finish it soon... but as we all know, thing definitely take on a mind of their own!

The closer Germany and/or Uncle Joe get to Warsaw, the slower time progresses and the more gangster movie hijinks ensue!

I deserved that! Very good.

But I will strive to certainly keep the chapter length restricted and the thing moving along, no matter how elastic in-game vs real time gets! However, for good or ill, it won’t be another Talking Turkey in full, though it will certainly share some DNA

 

[Bullfilter]

League of Nations
Geneva Peace Conference - 17 October 1944

Round Two Results

The votes have been submitted and tallied. The Secretariat can declare that the voting was as follows:

Proposition 2 - Burma
2.1 (Japan cedes): 34 votes (UK/Allies 15, USA 14, France 3, Romania 2).
2.2 (Japan retains): 47 votes PASSED (USSR 17, Japan 13, Turkey 10, Germany 4, Spain 2, Poland 1).

Proposition 3 - Pacific Islands
3.1 (Japan cedes): 74 votes PASSED (USSR 17, UK/Allies 15, USA 14, Japan 13, Turkey 10, France 3, Romania 2).
3.2 (Japan retains): 7 votes (Germany 4, Spain 2, Poland 1).

Proposition 4 - South East Asia
4.1 (Japan cedes): 34 votes (UK/Allies 15, USA 14, France 3, Romania 2).
4.2 (Japan retains): 47 votes PASSED (USSR 17, Japan 13, Turkey 10, Germany 4, Spain 2, Poland 1).

Proposition 5 - Philippines
5.1 (Japan cedes): 32 votes (UK/Allies 15, USA 14, France 3).
5.2 (Japan retains): 49 votes PASSED (USSR 17, Japan 13, Turkey 10, Germany 4, Spain 2, Romania 2, Poland 1).

Note: the Romanian votes were cast by default, with 'coin tosses' on Propositions 2 and 5. All other votes were as actively cast by the participants.

There being no vetoes to cast, as Japan has backed Proposition 3.1 to concede their Pacific Island conquests, voting will now proceed to Round Three to settle the fate of Denmark and Finland.

The Round Three deadline is 1000hr on 28 June 2022 (real time), unless all final votes are cast before that time.

regards

SecGen Lester

 

[Midnite Duke]

Exactly which atoll did Japan cede. Is it the one that Amelia and Fred took a "three hour voyage"? I see that the triangle of evil that had Berlin, Rome and Tokyo as points has shrunk.

 

[Bullfilter]

Midway, Wake and a bunch of US controlled islands to their south are the main hand-backs. Will do a proper map update at some point. Perhaps one of them had their remains wash up on an isolated beach ...

 

[nuclearslurpee]

Most of the ceded lands were controlled by the United States prior to the onset of hostilities; I think there is also a formerly French-controlled island in the mix. Oddly, nothing British that I could see. Japan of course was happy to provide these territories back to their previous controllers as a magnanimous gift in the interest of world peace and cooperation - though our government does acknowledge the moral support from the German, Spanish, and Polish delegations.

Quick thought - it might be worth soliciting opinions on if votes should move on a quicker timeline, perhaps four days or so. I wouldn't jump to any conclusion, but based on what I know it does seem like negotiations from here on out might proceed more briskly.

 

[Bullfilter]

Quick thought - it might be worth soliciting opinions on if votes should move on a quicker timeline, perhaps four days or so. I wouldn't jump to any conclusion, but based on what I know it does seem like negotiations from here on out might proceed more briskly.

I suggested this last round, but more time was needed for an obviously more complex round than this coming one. Happy to shorten the deadline. How about we go off when the last vote is cast, it will process? In so doing, anyone who votes early on a provisional basis can caveat that by requesting the ability to reconfirm if an early vote looks like going ahead. I’d then go out to everyone saying we have a full vote ready to go early, allowing provisional voters to confirm. A vote specifically stated as final wil be taken so.

For accounting purposes, when voting can you please make it a stand-alone format that doesn’t refer to earlier messages or separate pledge agreements? With nine different voters and multiple pledges and propositions to track, it can get a bit complicated. I only need which of the options under each proposition you wish to support.

So something like:

Round Twelve we vote for:
31.1
32.4
33.2

Is all I need as a minimum.

Any vetoes that may arise will be canvassed separately, after the votes are in, so there is no need to ‘what if’ those in advance. They will be treated as a separate mini-negotiation round, lasting until either when the veto decision is made or a period of one day (maximum) after the vote is concluded. And a reminder that bound pledges can incorporate or be made regarding the potential use of vetoes, as well.

 

[Wraith11B]

Not gonna lie, kinda disappointed about how the rules have shoe-horned the US, and really everyone else, from continuing the war.

Basically, the initial options were no option at all for most of the world. Only the US, the Soviet Union, France and the Dominions (which held hegemony over the Dutch) had any skin in the initial tranche, and they basically had nothing to really keep them willing to engage, because most everyone had the "get out of jail free" card. Then--because of limitations of the games capacity to operate--basically everyone tells the US (as the only power aside from Puppet Germany) that they're warmongers and bad ones at that, since jeez, what they hell have you done? (Despite having the world's second largest navy and army, and the economy of all the next two powers combined, and providing roughly a quarter of the Soviet Union's IC for two years)

Then, at the cost of basically a few nonentity islands, the Japanese get to keep Burma, Indochina and the Philippines. And with that, the world forces the US to peace.

So basically, the US apparently just gives up. I get it: not a fun game when one player is unceremoniously booted from the game. Even less so--to my sleep-deprived brain as I'm just getting off work and the last three hours were a doozy--when a nation that should be coming to the defense of their (let's be realistic) client state that was not able to be fought for. I can understand France not getting a veto over Indochina (they are barely unified, right? Who knows how that will turn out...). Whatever.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Not gonna lie, kinda disappointed about how the rules have shoe-horned the US, and really everyone else, from continuing the war.

Basically, the initial options were no option at all for most of the world. Only the US, the Soviet Union, France and the Dominions (which held hegemony over the Dutch) had any skin in the initial tranche, and they basically had nothing to really keep them willing to engage, because most everyone had the "get out of jail free" card. Then--because of limitations of the games capacity to operate--basically everyone tells the US (as the only power aside from Puppet Germany) that they're warmongers and bad ones at that, since jeez, what they hell have you done? (Despite having the world's second largest navy and army, and the economy of all the next two powers combined, and providing roughly a quarter of the Soviet Union's IC for two years)

Then, at the cost of basically a few nonentity islands, the Japanese get to keep Burma, Indochina and the Philippines. And with that, the world forces the US to peace.

So basically, the US apparently just gives up. I get it: not a fun game when one player is unceremoniously booted from the game. Even less so--to my sleep-deprived brain as I'm just getting off work and the last three hours were a doozy--when a nation that should be coming to the defense of their (let's be realistic) client state that was not able to be fought for. I can understand France not getting a veto over Indochina (they are barely unified, right? Who knows how that will turn out...). Whatever.

To be entirely fair, this is a peace conference and an attempt to set up TTL's UN. Going to war isn't really on the cards for anyone, at this point anyway. I don't think anyone would be surprised
if, having signed the treaty overall, the US and Japan found themsevles at war again presently. None of their beefs have been resolved by the conference, the US can still blockade Japan's oil supply, and the Phillipines are incredibly vulnerable to either side.

It also makes sense that everyone else aside from the US and Japan just doesn't care about the far East anymore, having face invasion in their own homelands and now have to decide the fate of their home continent and neighbours.

That does not mean that when this conference is over, the various nations with interests still in the Pacific (the USSR has a coastal border, the UK, technically, has colonies and dominions there until decolonisation occurs etc) won't return at least some of their attention eastwards.

I know it's not what you wanted, but everyone else does want peace for now, even if it is a little unstable in that region.

OOC: The security Council and other members of the league or UN will still bicker and probably still go to war after the conference sometimes...until one or both of us invents nukes. Then at least the SC will have to play a little nicer with each other. Much like the OTL UN formation though, getting all the great powers to the Table and agreeing to join the organisation is a vital first step, no matter what you have to agree to get them there (an absolute veto on the SC, for example).

 

[Bullfilter]

(Edit: posted simultaneously with TBC above)
I do get it, but (before all this transpired, and parts were allocated) the way the war had gone, especially in the Pacific, it didn’t seem Philippines as a puppet state, rather sovereign US territory, was realistically in play for the US at all, except via diplomacy. For peace, Japan was already being required to give up a lot of territory it had occupied. Why would they be willing to give up the Philippines at this stage without either a military or diplomatic fight?

I can say it now (OOC) that I was rather surprised at how the Japanese voting worked out, as ostensibly the interests were stacked heavily against Japan winning any of those votes and (when doing the points beforehand) I expected them to have to veto all four if they wanted to keep them, meaning they might not do so for all of them because of the diplomatic cost for the rest of the Conference. But in the end, it was clearly other bargaining that came into play, meaning the system was working as it was meant to, even if on each issue there are going to be winners and losers, in nominal terms.

There is a dichotomy here between what a player playing the US all along and as an open agent at the conference would do, and what was in keeping with the flow of the game to this point and trying to shape a setting where the outcomes were a logical extension of that. The same actually goes for most of the major powers. But on the Round Two votes, the odds should have been stacked against Japan (13 votes) and in favour of the Allies/US/France 32 votes), with the UGNR/USSR probably weighted against Japan as well.

I hope there is still entertainment value in the rest of the Conference, because that’s really what it is mainly all about: settling the European peace, rather than this probably temporary armistice and armed peace in Asia. To be a realistic in-universe candidate for carry on a war, the US to date would have to have been directly far more engaged in it already. The fact they weren’t is absolutely no fault of whoever was going to represent the US. What would be needed now would be a regime change in the US to some kind of revanchist leadership ready to arm up and take on Japan (and anyone else who gets in the way) by around 1950.

 

[nuclearslurpee]

(OOC)
I do want to echo Bullfilter's comment. It is important to recognize that we are not coming into this peace conference as players in a MP AAR but as representatives of the nations which have gone through the eight years of events in TT.

Initially, I was rather irritated by the fact that Japan had no realistic option to push for keeping Malaya or the DEI (Proposition 1.1 being an obvious non-starter) aside from continuing the war and being ejected from the conference (no fun!). This was because, if I had been the Japanese "player", I would have fought a war for those regions expressly to secure the extensive oil supplies. However, I realized that the reality of the situation was that TT Japan had, for all her wartime successes, not succeeded in actually securing those regions completely, with the British and Dutch continuing to hold much of Malaya and Borneo at the time of the peace conference. The terms of peace are ultimately dictated by the limits of what "my" military has done in the prior several years, not what I personally want as a player. Once I understood and accepted these limits the game as a whole made a lot more sense to me.

Ultimately this is what the peace conference has to be all about: roleplaying as the countries in TT as they are come October, 1944 and not just acting like human players in a MP game trying to get every scrap of land at all costs. This doesn't mean there's no room for player agency - as our esteemed authAAR has pointed out, Japan has done quite a bit of maneuvering to get the outcome she has to this point. I won't get into specifics until the game is finished and all cards are on the table, and then we can argue about "realistic" roleplaying, but I do feel that I've pursued a reasonable course for TT Japan that gets her most of what she could want if all works out as hoped for, given the circumstances.

Candidly, I do also think it is a little silly to play a "peace conference" with the intent of staying at war - or re-declaring war - if a nation doesn't get everything it wants. As far as the US goes, I don't want to overreach and speak too much of another player's country, but I do think the in-game lackadaisical US war effort indicates a lack of appetite for war by the American public, regardless of what FDR himself might prefer, and this is a lack which would only be amplified by international consensus on peace and the generous return of Pacific territories to US control.

 

[Wraith11B]

While I admit that there's nothing that we had seen be done, I'd argue that there was a hidden issue. Note that all the ships sunk on the part of the United States were submarines. Seems like they were conducting--as OTL--unrestricted subwar, and unfortunately, we have no idea how effective that effort was. Indeed, I'd wonder if it wasn't much of the reason that Japan couldn't continue to force their way out of those beachheads.

Also, the way Pdox handles Nat Chi, with their peace mechanic of seizing the Chinese coast with no follow-on redeclaration of war means that Japan has an unrealistic ability to free up forces elsewhere... Etc etc.

In the end, it's a game, and whatever. Sour grapes or what have you.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

While I admit that there's nothing that we had seen be done, I'd argue that there was a hidden issue. Note that all the ships sunk on the part of the United States were submarines. Seems like they were conducting--as OTL--unrestricted subwar, and unfortunately, we have no idea how effective that effort was. Indeed, I'd wonder if it wasn't much of the reason that Japan couldn't continue to force their way out of those beachheads.

Also, the way Pdox handles Nat Chi, with their peace mechanic of seizing the Chinese coast with no follow-on redeclaration of war means that Japan has an unrealistic ability to free up forces elsewhere... Etc etc.

In the end, it's a game, and whatever. Sour grapes or what have you.

If it makes you feel better, post conference is entirely out of game hands and into what if probability. Which means the US is about to kick ass, in whatever it is they choose to do. Which doesn't seem to be continued interaction with the world, but rather become the undisputed industrial, economic and financial centre of global trade.