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She has her allies but keeping them by torching support amongst the public, the moneymen and plenty of established figures, as well as rather awkwardly proposing to foreigners like the Scottish...its not going to end well for her side. Nor Scotland, with England as strong as it is.

I hope she dies quickly.
 
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Margaret won't be quite popular if she's caught giving away English land to a Scottish king, methinks...
No she won't. At least not in certain areas, especially in the north. But then, she never thinks about that sort of thing. It is only herself.

She has her allies but keeping them by torching support amongst the public, the moneymen and plenty of established figures, as well as rather awkwardly proposing to foreigners like the Scottish...its not going to end well for her side. Nor Scotland, with England as strong as it is.

I hope she dies quickly.
I can say that this won't happen. Not anytime soon at least. There is plenty of time to stick her foot in it more and more.


To all - It seems crazy to consider, but the above is part of what made Margaret such a problem. You'll recall this is not the first time that she has attempted to work with the Scots in the hopes of gaining an ally against York. And it is all true. She really did this according to the histories. When York and others say horrible things about her and do not trust her, it is this that they mean. However, she is oblivious to it. And has enough support still to think that she can get away with it. See the next scene which comes up in just a moment.

And that scene will end chapter 10 which was my goal to finish before the end of the year. I'll wait to start the new chapter until the first of 2023 to give others time to catch up. And thank you to all that read and give comment!
 
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Coventry, September 1456

After a long period of progress, Henry and Margaret finally settled to Coventry in the Midlands, the Lancastrian heartlands. Here the Queen intended to stay for as long as she might. While the King preferred to stay in the nearby priory, Margaret often lodged at the house of Richard Woods, a rich merchant and sometimes at the manor of Cheylesmore, once owned by the Black Prince. However what remained of Coventry Castle was the King’s official residence and it was here where the court traveled and gathered.

The people of the area were more than pleased to see the King take up residence and he was accorded a warm welcome with pageants mounted in honor of him and the Queen lauded as the mother of England’s heir. The magnates were less pleased as it caused far more travel than they were used to. Many had dear estates close to London and Westminster. Far less owned estates close to where the seat of government was now held. To Margaret, this was no concern. She began to create a center of patronage with artists, musicians and scholars in an attempt to recreate the splendors of former courts based in the palaces of the Thames valley. In short, if York and his would hold court to Westminster and London, she would hold her own without them.

To placate the Lords, the Queen often held lavish festivals that would last for days with feasts each night and after the latest news of victory against the Scots and the return of Maine, Henry had called for a great council of nobles to meet. It had been the largest gathering since the Leicester council of the previous year and while York and his had showed, each had almost immediately vacated with the Duke going back to Ludlow, Salisbury to Middleham and Warwick to Calais once more. If Henry was perturbed by it, it did not show. Yet to the Queen, she was right confident and happy.

“My Lord of Exeter,” Margaret called out from the high table, “Would you show us that dance once again?”

Exeter showed bow, “Why of course, Your Grace. Would you honor me by joining?”

The Queen smiled and moved to the center of the hall and soon the musicians were strumming along as Henry Holland taught her the moves. Others began to join in and King Henry clapped along from his seat above them.

“His Grace seems quite pleased,” Anne, the Duchess of Exeter suggested as she danced with Henry Beaufort, the Duke of Somerset.

The young Duke gave nod as he placed his hand next to Anne’s and turned, “I believe him to find joy that there be no rancor.”

“And you yourself appear in better humor, my Lord,” she replied.

Young Somerset smiled, “I think to be healed. Still a bit of a gamy leg, but I muddle on.”

“It does not show as you move, sir,” she returned the smile.

“I thank you, my Lady,” he bowed his head as they turned again.

Anne grinned, “And as to rancor, I see that you keep happy company.”

“I must say...” Henry dipped and then pulled her close, “...your brother has proved to be a boon companion.”

She held her grin, “I know not if my father approves, but you bring Ned quite along and well. He grows to court, I think.”

“It is a shame that the Duke of York felt need to leave so swiftly,” he replied as they turned once more.

Anne bowed as they parted, “I am certain that mama calls him home. He has been quite tasked of late.”

“Would you hold my sister to yourself all night, sir?” Edward of York questioned as he tapped Henry Beaufort to the shoulder.

“By all means, my Lord,” the young Duke handed her off, “Try a spin for yourself.”

Anne pulled him close before they danced, “I am so happy that you stayed, Ned!”

“I could not leave you alone with these around us,” Edward smiled and then held to her hand as they turned, “And I think to find some favor of my own while to court.”

“You would leave the Lady Elizabeth alone, young sir,” Anne jested with him, “The Beaufort girl is Eddie’s age and not yet ready for your affections, I think.”

Edward laughed as they pulled close, “You wound me, dear sister. I think Ed to find his own to Ludlow and so I aim to find mine here.”

“You are hardly four and ten, sir!” Anne returned the laugh, “What has Somerset been teaching you? I think you better off by tutelage from our uncle the Archbishop.”

“I believe church life is not for me, sister,” Edward pulled away and turned with her, “There are things that are far more interesting.”

Anne grinned, “You are incorrigible, sir! Mama would chide you!”

“Then it is a good thing that mama is not here at the now, is it not?” the young Earl gave bow as the music ended, “Else how am I to grow?”

“Play another!” Queen Margaret clapped and demanded of the musicians, “An Italian reel perhaps!”

All others clapped at her suggestion including the Duke of Buckingham as he sat close to the King, “You do not join in, Your Grace?”

“I...” Henry answered haltingly, “...do not dance.”

Stafford smiled, “Tis a shame, sire. They seem to enjoy it.”

“As they should,” the King replied as he looked out over the hall, “It does find us cheer.”

Buckingham allowed a nod, “I suppose I could not blame you, Your Grace. I believe my dancing days are behind me.”

“That is too poor, sir,” King Henry looked to him with sorrow and then beckoned him closer, “How does your son?”

“He is well, Your Grace,” the Duke answered quickly, “I thank you for asking of him. It remains a trial as he recovers but he is lifted by his own young son.”

The King smiled, “That pleases me. It is good...to see a new generation.”

“Yet what of our own?” Buckingham questioned, “Did you think too poorly of York and Salisbury leaving off?”

Henry sat back to his chair and watched the dancers for a time before giving reply, “We would be happy for our cousin and his to visit their places and make their own progress.”

“And yet you do invite so many to here, Your Grace,” the Duke gestured towards the young Earl of Northumberland and the younger Baron Thomas Clifford, “It still may seem a clash, does it not?”

“Humphrey...” the King smiled to him, “...you’ve a good many years behind you, do you not?”

The Duke allowed a nod, “I do, sire.”

“And so...we shall not all be around forever,” Henry suggested as he again looked to the hall, “Yet here we see before us the Earl of March and the Duke of Somerset...fast friends, I am told. All manner of ill feeling...to be put away and a new glorious time ahead of us. That is my wish. Our wish. God’s wish.”

“Your Grace...brother...” the Earl of Pembroke interrupted them, “...may I hold a moment?”

“Ahh...Jasper!” Henry looked to his brother with a fine smile, “Yes indeed. You would forgive me, my Lord Buckingham?”

Buckingham stood and bowed, “There be no need, Your Grace. Of course.”

“Having a good time, Jasper?” Henry asked as his brother sat, “The music is quite good.”

Jasper Tudor gave nod as he looked to the King, “Well, indeed. Yet I must speak of Edmund.”

“Edmund?” Henry offered a curious brow, “Is there something amiss between him and his new bride?”

Jasper shook his head but remained serious, “No thing amiss there, sire. Yet you do know that the Duke of York has tasked him to Wales.”

“Ah yes...” Henry teased it from his memory, “...the rebel? What is his name...Gruffydd or some such?”

The Earl gave nod, “Gruffydd ap Nicholas, sire. Has encroached upon the March lordships and is to be subdued.”

“Well...I’m sure he has it all well in hand,” Henry turned back to the hall.

Jasper showed a more serious eye, “That’s just it, Your Grace. Edmund left out of Lamphey and made good effort against this rebel, but as since, this Gruffydd has allied himself with some other supporters. Some say...those of York.”

“I do not understand,” the King questioned with confusion.

“This rebel has seized and garrisoned several royal castles to that place and while Edmund has restored authority to Carmarthen...” Jasper hesitated, “...he is right alone in his effort at the now.”

Henry waved a hand as he looked back to the hall, “Well...send word to York. I think him constable of that castle? Surely he would assist our brother.”

“Arms may do it, brother,” Jasper replied quickly, “Yet I know not for which side.”

“There are no sides!” Henry turned to him with force, “There are rebels and there are we. What is the hesitation?!”

“What do we speak of, husband?” the Queen returned to the dais and put a hand to the King’s shoulder in question.

Jasper bowed his head, “Edmund to Wales, my Lady Queen.”

Margaret turned and listened to some few whispered words from her new chamberlain and then looked to her husband, “Yes, indeed...my love. A hardship for your brother. And another poor step by York. Would that he were here to answer for it.”

“I think not that the Lord of York himself plays at perfidy, Your Grace...” Jasper attempted to explain but Margaret answered for him.

“It seems rather easy to understand for me, my Lord. I know that I am but a woman, yet when a place is to be restored, why then challenge it? York sent your brother...and now resents it because of his success.”

The Earl tried to suggest, “I do not think that we know all, Your Grace. There is more to be learned. Surely.”

“I know all that I needs must,” Margaret sat to the other side of the King and brushed lovingly to his face, “His Grace has put down marker and your brother has done so for him. A terrible twosome...threesome...whatever...has placed down their own. And too poor that York is not here to answer for himself.”

“I do not think that York is entirely the cause,” Jasper answered with reticence.

The Queen gave King Henry a kiss to his cheek and then looked to Jasper, “The Lord Duke is always the cause, sir. Make no mistake. Look you there to all of these surrounding us and find the one that is not present. You may hold your council with him, but when all is said and done, who must answer?”

“As always, His Grace the King...” Jasper looked to Henry, “...you, my brother.”

The King kept his eyes to the hall, “I quite like this feast. Some much good cheer. Yet it should be considered.”

“What is that, Your Grace?” Jasper questioned.

Henry turned to him with his own, “To Wales..sir?”

“I shall do what I am able,” the Earl gave nod and bowed as he stood.

Margaret watched him walk away and then turned to the King, “He is honorable, husband.”

“Are they not all?” Henry asked as he looked again to the crowd before them.

She leaned in close, “You are too trusting, Henry. And have we not had a glorious time?”

“Yes...” he accepted her touch and held a weak hand to her face, “...of course we have. The good old spirit and that which we love.”

Margaret showed him a smile, “Yet we are away perhaps too much from court. Have made it here. Mischief is at play...and the players grow bold.”

“You worry too much about me,” the King allowed a loving eye.

She brushed his cheek again, “You are to be worried over for you are King.”

“You grow strange, dear...” Henry looked to her with question, “...what have you to mind?”

Margaret smiled, “No thing but your promise, husband. We were to go on progress and find your future and we have done so. Yet our Lords do beg. They do worry so. Each would see you...in charge. As King. You do not share power...you are that. Anointed so by God. So who does stamp your order? Such that all know it comes from your mind? Would you wish it some other who is not here...or from your own hand...that which you may see before you?”

“I see you before me,” Henry smiled to her.

The Queen returned the smile, “Yes you do, my love. Mon cher. And we are the seat of government, are we not?”

“Yes,” Henry answered as he looked back to the crowd.

Margaret held his face, “Henry! Look to me! You hold favor. Only you. Your choice...your decision. No one else would or should place their stamp upon your opinion.”

“But we’re having a good time,” Henry pleaded.

She held to him still, “Of course, sir. For I would always do that for you. Make your life rich. Yet we must hold our own.”

Henry questioned her, “I am confused. What is it that you ask of me?”

With a hand outreached, she invited her chamberlain to her side, “Master Laurence is honorable and true. He advises well and does so to say that the Lord Chancellor is too far into the Yorkist camp.”

“He is the Archbishop of Canterbury!” Henry exclaimed.

Margaret held Henry’s face in her hands with a loving eye, “And brother in law to the Duke of York. What can be trusted?”

The King looked to them both and pulled her hands away, “Would you have another in mind?”

“I do,” Margaret answered, “The Bishop of Winchester...Wayneflette. I think you know the man well.”

“I...” Henry questioned at first before giving nod, “…I do know him well. Good man.”

The Queen showed a smile, “And a man for the time. We are here to give favor...but not unduly. As you often say...give your favor to God Almighty. Is that not so?”

King Henry screwed his face into confusion, “I think that my cousin will like it not.”

“And why should you answer to him?” Margaret asked, “You are King. Not he. It is your choice. Not his. Would you place our son under his protection, or would you protect him yourself as a father should?”

Henry questioned again, “Or son?”

“Our son...our kingdom,” Margaret pressed, “They are one and the same. Who shall rule?”

Henry pulled away from her with irritation, “We were having a good time!”

“And so shall...when you choose,” Margaret answered him.

The King looked back to the hall and tried to smile, but turned back to his wife, “Fine. Make the change. I’ll allow it. But can we not have peace?!”

“Of course,” she smiled and brushed again to his cheek, “Yet...we do require the seal. You and I.”

“The privy seal?” he asked.

Margaret smiled, “There be no reason that it should hold with some other. Not York...not anyone that is not you. Would that it be here...to your court.”

The King gave nod as Anne, the Duchess of Exeter approached, “Your Grace...might you honor me with a dance?”

“Pretty young thing,” King Henry stood slowly with a grin, “I could never say no.”

As he stepped from the dais, Margaret turned to her chamberlain and spoke softly, “You will find it to his chambers. Third drawer from the top. Take control of it.”

“As you wish, Your Grace,” Laurence Booth gave bow.

The Queen then turned back to the hall and watched her husband dancing poorly with the Lady of Exeter and York’s own daughter. She grinned as she looked on and said under her breath, “Jolie jeune chose...very pretty. Indeed.”

End of Chapter 10
 
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One problem that Margaret has is that hardly listen to anybody that tells her anything that contradicts her ideas or that she doesn't like. In battle that could be quite interesting. She could be found herself waiting for an army that doesn't exist but no one dares to tell her so.
 
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Well, a welter of chapters, sir! Sound the alarum! To the keyboards! :D

Talbot laughed, “I know Richard. Have worked with him well. Yet he holds an unyielding pride. And it may be his undoing.
Indeed, Talbot would know.
Talbot sneered as he walked away, “Fuckin’ children!!”

“He is...high spirited...my Lord,” Hastings suggested.
Enjoyed Talbot - a breath of foul air! :D
given the state of the map
It looks like someone has swallowed a painter’s palette and then vomited it onto a canvas! :eek:
it was fun to finally get to write a bit for Old Talbot
I bet you enjoyed writing him after all the posturing and venal blather going on back at the court in England.
“I believe she means to keep Henry from my presence at any cost,” the Duke held to the wall, “And thus to speak poison to his ear at every turn.”
Will no one rid him of this troublesome Queen? He needs some plausibly deniable hatchet man to take a hint and have her defenestrated. “She happened to fall off the castle balcony.” It’s still happening more than 500 years later :eek:
I'll wait to start the new chapter until the first of 2023 to give others time to catch up.
Thanks - this poor lackey was drowning. :D
Yet here we see before us the Earl of March and the Duke of Somerset...fast friends, I am told. All manner of ill feeling...to be put away and a new glorious time ahead of us.
Oh, Henry. Hopeless naïveté and pliability are ever your hallmarks.

The poison goes in his ear then comes back out of his mouth, as a moment’s respite is once more turned to fractiousness by the Queen of Venom.
 
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Now she's going to forge some terrible orders and make it look like fhe King is evil, incompetent, or perversely anti-York...or all of the above.

Not going to end well when York saves rhe papers and presents them in court.
 
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Margaret deals with the Scots. That will probably end extremely badly for her.

Has Scotland expanded? If so, where? The chapter did imply it...

York isn't stupid - he knows better than to support a Welsh rebellion. I wouldn't put it above Margaret to attempt to frame York for doing so by ordering her own supporters to aid it, though. That would be most unwise, but... Margaret hasn't been terribly intelligent here
 
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One problem that Margaret has is that hardly listen to anybody that tells her anything that contradicts her ideas or that she doesn't like. In battle that could be quite interesting. She could be found herself waiting for an army that doesn't exist but no one dares to tell her so.
Those really are the worst kind of leaders. You see it in many industries- usually a master or some such that has such a track record no one is willing to tell them that they are wrong. Of course, Margaret is not a master at anything but flirting but she thinks she is. That's really worst.

Well, a welter of chapters, sir! Sound the alarum! To the keyboards! :D


Indeed, Talbot would know.

Enjoyed Talbot - a breath of foul air! :D

I bet you enjoyed writing him after all the posturing and venal blather going on back at the court in England.
I've purposely kept Talbot at arms length as a character because he seems to serve better as a thought rather than a reality to contend with. And I've suggested, he does much to help explain the reality on the continent. Speaking of...

It looks like someone has swallowed a painter’s palette and then vomited it onto a canvas! :eek:
It is not pretty and again, is likely my fault as I forced them to DoW early on which allowed for this piling on by so many. If I could be rid of this little pesky civil war thing in England, we could clean that up. That said, it's really only been 10-15 years in game, so they have time to do that for themselves...maybe. For now, I will not take advantage.

Will no one rid him of this troublesome Queen? He needs some plausibly deniable hatchet man to take a hint and have her defenestrated. “She happened to fall off the castle balcony.” It’s still happening more than 500 years later :eek:

Thanks - this poor lackey was drowning. :D

Oh, Henry. Hopeless naïveté and pliability are ever your hallmarks.

The poison goes in his ear then comes back out of his mouth, as a moment’s respite is once more turned to fractiousness by the Queen of Venom.
I do wonder if Margaret has any champions among the readership? ;)

Now she's going to forge some terrible orders and make it look like fhe King is evil, incompetent, or perversely anti-York...or all of the above.

Not going to end well when York saves rhe papers and presents them in court.
Indeed, she now has pretty much full control of the government. I made this the last scene of the chapter to show how completely she has made an end run around York. It began with his resounding victory and now? How she does it, even I don't know.

Margaret deals with the Scots. That will probably end extremely badly for her.

Has Scotland expanded? If so, where? The chapter did imply it...
What they discuss about Scotland involves the breaking of the Black Douglas clan which had been a thorn in the side during James' minority. By this time, he had defeated them within Scotland. That said, they have expanded in game but it has been a while. They have Ulster in Ireland and have for some time. In game, there is a truce between Scotland and England set to end in 1459.

York isn't stupid - he knows better than to support a Welsh rebellion. I wouldn't put it above Margaret to attempt to frame York for doing so by ordering her own supporters to aid it, though. That would be most unwise, but... Margaret hasn't been terribly intelligent here
It's a tricky situation. It occurred pretty much as explained in the post in that York in his capacity of Protector sent Edmund Tudor to Wales in order to root out the rebellion but the rebel leader then found friends that many said were loyal to York. Wales at this time is not too different than the north in that many of these leading magnates had estates in both places and on different sides of this battle. Both places are a microcosm of the larger kingdom with infighting leading to the larger conflict.


To all - So here we are on the very last day of 2022 and looking back it has been a pretty prosperous year for this work. I began the AAR in March of last year, but the bulk has been written and posted this year. Seven and a half chapters were presented and I have another chapter and a half written in that time span yet to be released. It's not quite the output I did for the Wessex saga, but it's good enough. And I really must thank all of you for trying to keep up with me. I know it can be difficult when I post so often. I do try and keep the scene length short on most posts but sometimes they run away from me.

More to that, it is a little astounding to me that we are really only about 9 years into the actual story from when I started. A lot of words and scenes. At this rate, I may still be writing this well into the 2030's. I could never equal @El Pip 's slower than real time pace, but it's starting to look like it. ;)

With all that said, I have to say it has been a joy to share this story with you and to write it in the first place. I've stated before, but this period of history is one of my favorites due to all of the intricacies and characters involved and having wanted to tell this story for so long, it is so satisfying to finally see it born out. And more to that, enjoyed! Thank you again!

And while I'm here, allow me to plug once more the 2022 AARland Year-end AwAARds where you can honor those works and writAARs you have enjoyed over this past year. Allow me to state one more time - you need not vote for this work (though it is always appreciated) but please do vote. Every one matters. We're about one month into the process and already have some great AARs listed but more would be desired and with another month to go, surely we can reward the so many excellent folks that make this place so enjoyable. All of your writAARs will appreciate it.

Finally, here's wishing to you all a wonderful and happy new year! I hope the days ahead are better for you than the days behind and that we always and ever move forward. Here's to a great 2023! I look forward to sharing it with you all. :)
 
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Chapter 11: An Uneasy Peace

* * *

r75XlI1.jpg


Carmarthen Castle, September 1456

Sir Walter Devereux stood before the justices and pointed to several local men standing on the platform within the inner bailey, “My Lords, these and theirs have illegally and without authority taken control of this place and all that surround in contravention of that which is owed the true Constable of this place, his high and honored Lord Richard, Duke of York.”

Each of the men stared ahead feeling the pressure of their circumstance as well as the ropes that bound their arms behind their backs. Sir Walter continued, “Having been given patents by the Lord Duke to restore his right and good rule, we would see these miscreants sentenced and treated as they themselves would treat the rule of law. No leniency would be allowed for they have each misruled by their action.”

The three justices each looked to the other for a moment and then ruled, “By the law of His Grace King Henry named the sixth, these men would be sentenced to death in the manner of hanging.”

Devereux wasted no moment as he turned and gave nod to the gaolers. Ropes were placed over their necks and the lever pulled as they dropped with a snap and then swayed back and forth for all to see. Above them to a tower stood Black William and he smiled. Turning to his own prisoner, he gestured, “Well that’s a piece of business done. I suspect you’re in relief given your lineage.”

“Relief, sir?!” Edmund Tudor offered a shocked face, “Have you any knowledge of what will happen to you when my brother the King finds out?”

Sir William Herbert smiled again, “You can’t keep trading on that name forever, Richmond. The Lord of York sent you to this place to restore order and instead, you’ve allowed the very Welsh traitors back to power. I think not that the King would be pleased. I know well that the Lord Duke is not.”

“I would not answer to you, for I have done my duty,” the Earl replied with sureness, “The rebels were defeated and the people pacified, by order of the King. Unlike you, I serve no other.”

“More poor for you, my Lord,” Herbert turned back to look out over the inner bailey.

Edmund sat forward in his chair as best he could with his hands tied behind his back, “You earn your moniker! For your soul is as black as your loyalty!”

“Loyalty is a fickle thing in this time, is it not?” Sir William looked to him, “When you left out for this place, you did give your word to the Duke of York. He trusted you, my Lord. Was promised his authority would be restored.”

“Which I have done so!” Edmund strongly suggested.

Herbert questioned, “An odd thing then that those men outside dangle. All the worst elements of Welsh rebellion...and somehow to your employ?”

“You know not of which you speak,” Edmund argued, “And I would tell you again that this Gruffydd ap Nicholas used York’s name in his efforts!”

“And I would tell you again...” Herbert countered, “...that both you and he are done with your pursuits as both this and Aberystwyth are now seized and back to their rightful rule.”

Edmund looked to him with a harsh eye, “So you would mean to hold me as prisoner?”

“I would not hang you,” Sir William replied, “That was not my order. Yet how could I leave you at liberty to create more trouble?”

“My brother Jasper will not stand for this!” Richmond answered, “And I doubt much that Devereux’s archers or your men of Raglan will be a match when he would wish to take back this castle!”

Herbert stood over him with contempt, “You and your brother...your father...disgusting! You lord it over we Welsh with your connections and high and mighty ways. Your father is no thing but a servant that managed to fuck a Queen. Spilled his seed into her and now, here you are. Another servant with no true regard for Wales or what we stand for!”

“You serve no thing but yourself!” Edmund shouted, “Stand for no thing but your own betterment!”

“I would not argue,” Sir William grinned.

The Earl continued, “And how is placing your arms at the behest of an English Lord...a marcher Lord...serving Wales?!”

Herbert pulled a knife from his belt, “I would save your voice, were I you, my Lord. You may cause me to show the how and the why.”

“That answers no thing!” Edmund pressed, “And if you are to be nothing but a thug, then there is little else I may say to you. However...if you do indeed have any honor...you should know that I hold a wife. A young wife that is with child!”

“I too hold a wife,” Sir William gave nod, “Daughter of the man outside that helped take this castle. What care should I have for yours? To my knowledge, she is no better than you. The daughter of a disgraced man and of lineage, bastards the lot of them. So what is your child to be? Just another in a long line of pretenders and would be upstarts.”

“Pretenders?!” the Earl scoffed, “When your employer is the very same?!”

“And here I thought you supported the Lord of York,” Herbert moved behind the Earl and placed the knife to his neck, “I’d cut you right now were it up to me. A useless ponce that enjoys raping little girls, seems like.”

Edmund stiffened, “Then why don’t you?!”

“Because there are easier ways and keeps me from staining my hands,” Sir William stepped back in front of him with a grin, “Your Lord...your brother...that’s the true pretender. Pretends at being a King. His harlot French wife? A disgrace! Her child? A bastard no better than the one you married! No, sir...I won’t waste my blade on you. Dulls the edge at every cut, and I think to need it. No, my Lord Richmond...man of Tudor...I think to introduce you to the cells below. If you have not yet seen them, they are...little better than a privy, but abounding with disease. You’ll find out soon enough.”
 
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The Welsh would appear to be on York's side, as much as the Scots are being courted by the Queen.

Unfortunately for the Queen, the Scots are rubbish and the Welsh (being already under English control) are a more vital people to get on side...or at least against your enemies.

At a certain point, people will no doubt wish there really was a war to just end this dispute once and for all. Peace is all well and good but it takes a lot of effort to maintain when everyone has private armies and economies. I do not think it will last much longer. Not if foreign kingdoms and the Welsh are being brought into this. And not if France stands wide open for plundering if they'd only resolve their internal disputes quickly.
 
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Much to catch up on. Talbot made quite the impression and I have little to add to that, his scene was great fun. My secret hope is that he just continues working away on the continent to the point that when a victor finally emerges from the dynastic struggle in Britain they discover that Talbot has conquered all of France.

Margaret consorting with the Scottish is entirely in character as it is (a) treasonous and (b) stupid, the two dominant factors in the horror show she calls a personality. It will bring her no benefit and only raise further enemies against her, but she is incapable of seeing that. On which point I think TBC has the right of it, she will clearly take the gold plated opportunity of getting her hands of the seal and cock it up. In the hands of someone subtle and patient they could become the power behind the throne, incredible control and influence and with Henry as a (most days) simpleton human shield. The smart move is not to forge fictional orders but just 'bend' the orders to suit while still being plausible, any discrepancy is clearly due to the King having had another 'bad day' and not remembering what he actually ordered. Fortunately she an impatient idiot so will over-play her hand and get exposed.

I fear that the King has now passed through pitiable into being culpable, the contrast is stark between his 'I must take back power' from York and his pathetic surrender to bad ideas from his wife just to enjoy a party. The refrain goes up again, pick a sodding option Henry. Either be a puppet who can enjoy church and parties while York does the actual ruling, or be your own ruler and stand up to your traitorous wife.

And finally we come to Black William who I think is my favourite character. I enjoy his way with words and the fact that for all his flexible affinities he is pleasantly direct about serving his own interests first while others dance around the issue. Plus he has called out Edmund as a monster, which needed doing, and ensured he will suffer an appropriate fate. What is not to like? I can only hope he does better than his OTL fate
 
Talbot has conquered all of France.

Certainly possible given the state of France. Only people who can stop him would be burgundy (I guess) and the king...but they'd need to show up with an army.

On which point I think TBC has the right of it

I do? I mean, yes, I do!
 
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Well, it seems like York has a lot of support over in Wales. It also looks like the Tudors are loyal to the King - and the Queen by extent - and that is not a good position to have, especially given that they recruited many Welsh rebels. All of which makes it look like the Queen was a supporter of the Welsh rebellion.

I wonder if that appearance will erode her support?

I feel like Margaret is more of a character that readers like hating - she's interesting, but you ultimately want her to lose (like Cersei Lannister in ASOIAF, who might have been inspired by her). She might have had more supporters if you hadn't made it clear that the heir was illegitimate.
 
She might have had more supporters if you hadn't made it clear that the heir was illegitimate.

She might have more supporters if she was competent. As is, there's only a few people in the entire kingdom doing a relatively good job at the moment, and two of them aren't even in England right now. Given the choice between a guy who seems alright bit doesn't want to be king and isn't very good at it anyway, a guy who probably could be king and sort of wants to be but won't commit, and a spiteful incompetent treacherous adultress who abuses the mentally ill, I'm not sure how anyone can support her.
 
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So what is your child to be? Just another in a long line of pretenders and would be upstarts.
Another sliding door prediction - Henry VII was by no means a shoo-in to make it through that long obstacle course that was the War and Peace of the Roses. Will the ATL lead to a different outcome? Herbert had better hope so in that specific case!

Otherwise … tick, tick, tick -BOOM!
 
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The Welsh would appear to be on York's side, as much as the Scots are being courted by the Queen.

Unfortunately for the Queen, the Scots are rubbish and the Welsh (being already under English control) are a more vital people to get on side...or at least against your enemies.

At a certain point, people will no doubt wish there really was a war to just end this dispute once and for all. Peace is all well and good but it takes a lot of effort to maintain when everyone has private armies and economies. I do not think it will last much longer. Not if foreign kingdoms and the Welsh are being brought into this. And not if France stands wide open for plundering if they'd only resolve their internal disputes quickly.
Some of the Welsh, definitely. The marcher Lords are getting their ducks in a row and as they all hold some lands within and just around Wales, it is a good recruiting area for, as you say, their private armies.

Much to catch up on. Talbot made quite the impression and I have little to add to that, his scene was great fun. My secret hope is that he just continues working away on the continent to the point that when a victor finally emerges from the dynastic struggle in Britain they discover that Talbot has conquered all of France.
That would be something! Sadly, he may be too old to last that long. We'll see. ;)

Margaret consorting with the Scottish is entirely in character as it is (a) treasonous and (b) stupid, the two dominant factors in the horror show she calls a personality. It will bring her no benefit and only raise further enemies against her, but she is incapable of seeing that. On which point I think TBC has the right of it, she will clearly take the gold plated opportunity of getting her hands of the seal and cock it up. In the hands of someone subtle and patient they could become the power behind the throne, incredible control and influence and with Henry as a (most days) simpleton human shield. The smart move is not to forge fictional orders but just 'bend' the orders to suit while still being plausible, any discrepancy is clearly due to the King having had another 'bad day' and not remembering what he actually ordered. Fortunately she an impatient idiot so will over-play her hand and get exposed.
Recall she has done it before (and likely will again should she need to) because she does not do things for the betterment of the realm, only herself. And indeed, don't look for her to use the privy seal on anything that is right and proper.

I fear that the King has now passed through pitiable into being culpable, the contrast is stark between his 'I must take back power' from York and his pathetic surrender to bad ideas from his wife just to enjoy a party. The refrain goes up again, pick a sodding option Henry. Either be a puppet who can enjoy church and parties while York does the actual ruling, or be your own ruler and stand up to your traitorous wife.
And yet...he remains King.

And finally we come to Black William who I think is my favourite character. I enjoy his way with words and the fact that for all his flexible affinities he is pleasantly direct about serving his own interests first while others dance around the issue. Plus he has called out Edmund as a monster, which needed doing, and ensured he will suffer an appropriate fate. What is not to like? I can only hope he does better than his OTL fate
I do enjoy writing for Black William though he is a minor character. Much like Talbot, he is enjoyable because he is direct. I never really have to think how he might parse his words. ;)

Certainly possible given the state of France. Only people who can stop him would be burgundy (I guess) and the king...but they'd need to show up with an army.



I do? I mean, yes, I do!
I am fairly certain that Burgundy will pounce on what is left of France the very minute their peace agreement is over.

Well, it seems like York has a lot of support over in Wales. It also looks like the Tudors are loyal to the King - and the Queen by extent - and that is not a good position to have, especially given that they recruited many Welsh rebels. All of which makes it look like the Queen was a supporter of the Welsh rebellion.

I wonder if that appearance will erode her support?
That is exactly how Richard of York would like it to appear. ;)

I feel like Margaret is more of a character that readers like hating - she's interesting, but you ultimately want her to lose (like Cersei Lannister in ASOIAF, who might have been inspired by her). She might have had more supporters if you hadn't made it clear that the heir was illegitimate.
I am fairly certain that is true because Martin did base his series, primarily, on this period as a guide.

She might have more supporters if she was competent. As is, there's only a few people in the entire kingdom doing a relatively good job at the moment, and two of them aren't even in England right now. Given the choice between a guy who seems alright bit doesn't want to be king and isn't very good at it anyway, a guy who probably could be king and sort of wants to be but won't commit, and a spiteful incompetent treacherous adultress who abuses the mentally ill, I'm not sure how anyone can support her.
I believe @HistoryDude was responding to my question if there were any Margaret fans amongst the readership, but those are all good points.

Another sliding door prediction - Henry VII was by no means a shoo-in to make it through that long obstacle course that was the War and Peace of the Roses. Will the ATL lead to a different outcome? Herbert had better hope so in that specific case!

Otherwise … tick, tick, tick -BOOM!
By the time we get to that point, if we get to that point, things will have really become an ATL. That said, our minds are not that far apart because guess what comes next?

Of course...
 
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WRsFZvC.jpg


Pembroke Castle, January 1457

“Ahhhh!!!!” she screamed out as the pain to her tiny frame pulsed within her.

“You must push, my Lady!” her midwife demanded, “With all of your strength! Bring forth this child of God!”

Margaret Beaufort cried out again as sweat poured from her brow, “It is too much!!!”

“Sweet girl...” her mother sat next to her on the bed and brushed at her forehead with a wet cloth, “…it is but a moment of pain for a lifetime of happiness.”

“Mama...please!” Margaret pleaded, “Make it stop!!”

“I cannot, my precious girl!” Lady Welles suggested and held tightly to her daughter’s hand, “Use all of your strength and release this child into the world.”

Margaret again screamed and felt the weight of the thing within her trying desperately to get out but she could not do what was demanded. The midwife looked to Lady Welles, “The child struggles. I’ve the head yet I think the canal too narrow.”

“Cut her,” Margaret’s mother said quickly as she brushed again to her daughter’s face.

The midwife was unsure, “My Lady?? There can be no way to ensure that she may live!”

The mother looked to the nurse with authority, “Cut...her!”

Margaret screamed even louder but suddenly the great pained stopped. Breathing heavily, she felt her mother’s hand tighten to her own and then she looked up. The midwife stood with a smile with her smock covered in blood and afterbirth and Margaret spied a little tiny thing. Silent for but a moment, one slap to the backside had the child crying out and Margaret burst into tears as she held out her arms, “Give to me!!!”

“It is a son, my Lady,” the midwife swaddled the child and then placed him into her arms.

“He is precious,” Margaret’s mother suggested as she too cried.

Margaret held the slightest of babies in her arms and brushed away dross from his tiny head, “He is...miraculous.”

“Your very own, my sweet child,” Lady Welles bent to kiss her daughter.

“You and I...my dear thing...” Margaret whispered to the boy, “...we are now one and the same. Your father would love you even if you should never know him. And I shall never leave you. That is a promise I give to you.”

“My Ladies?!” Jasper Tudor questioned over the partition, “Is all well?!”

When Margaret gave a weak nod, Lady Welles announced, “Lord Pembroke, I think you to enter.”

Jasper did so with reticence but once he spied the newborn child and Margaret’s happy face, he knelt by the bed, “What a beauty!”

“Tis a boy, Jasper,” Margaret suggested with tears still to her eyes.

“And Edmund’s pride...” Jasper held a tender hand to the child, “...would be abounding.”

When Margaret again cried out with hurt, her mother took over, “We should not see the child sickly, nor the mother. Out! All of you. Let the physicians do their part!”

Both Margaret and Jasper were pained to lose sight of the boy, but Lady Welles held to the Earl closely as they removed themselves, “It is a travesty for a father not to see their newborn babe, but it is all too familiar for Margaret. That she has done so...brought forth this child...at so young an age herself...she is delicate, my Lord.”

“You need not speak it to me, my Lady,” Pembroke answered readily, “It is a grief that we all share.”

Lady Welles pulled him close, “To all and many, I suppose I remain a Duchess, sir. For my late husband...her father...was Duke. Yet her life is now defined by what has happened here this day. She remains young...too young for what she has done...and God willing comes through her ordeal...she will still be of marriageable age. Yet you did see how she looked at him...this precious child. She remains a child herself and I must know that you will look after her!”

“How may I do any other?” Jasper looked on with a pained face, “It is a debt that I would owe to my brother.”

Margaret’s mother held his hand tightly, “Too poor that he could not spy this babe. Yet in grief, we must look to the future. I know it all too well. I’ve a third husband now, and many children, but none would be as precious as that one will always be to me. I must have your promise, sir.”

“I do so swear,” Jasper kissed her hand, “I would not be failing in my life’s work. I give you my promise for both she and the child. I would do no other but to see to their worth. By God and any other witness!”

Lady Welles offered a slim smile, “I will hold you to that, Jasper Tudor.”
 
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Mm. This may not end well.
 
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I did half wonder if this would be the much threatened departure from OTL, a girl would have been something of a twist, but it was not to be.

Lady Welles continues to give me very bad vibes even if the plain meaning of her words is tolerable. Though openly stating which of your children is the most precious is at the very least bad form, if not worse.
 
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I did half wonder if this would be the much threatened departure from OTL, a girl would have been something of a twist, but it was not to be.

Lady Welles continues to give me very bad vibes even if the plain meaning of her words is tolerable. Though openly stating which of your children is the most precious is at the very least bad form, if not worse.

If we were rolling the dice, far more likely that one or both of those children will be dead within 5 years. Esepcially as one has been pregnant and been sliced open, and the other had a breach birth. Not even going into the political risks of both of them remaining alive...
 
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