The Wars of the Roses

[coz1]

Westminster, October 1458​

The Earl walked with Hastings and several of his retainers behind him outside the palace of Westminster. While a bold move considering the feelings towards him by the Queen, Warwick was nothing but audacious. His intended visit was to see his cousin, Edward of York after a recent letter, yet there were other matters at hand as well. Namely to see his man Sir Fulk who stood near the doors to the kitchens.

“My Lord,” Fulk gave bow and handed Warwick a note, “I fear not much news to report, but our man is inside at the least.”

Warwick was quick to peruse the note and then looked up, “What of Herbert? Still no movement?”

“He remains tight lipped, my Lord,” Fulk shook his head, “Though not completely silent. There is little change with the King, but the young Lord of Somerset is seen more in the Queen’s presence of late.”

“Of course he is,” Warwick frowned.

Hastings followed, “It would appear that Edward’s words to you were true, my Lord. Tis a shame that.”

“Oh...I don’t know,” the Earl mused, “I was starting to think the two were entirely too close.”

Fulk gave nod, “Quite. Yet I may report that there seems to have been a row between the Lords of late. Young love and all that?”

Warwick frowned, “Do not be so prurient. I’ll sort the matter when I see him. His father would wish no thing less.”

“Of course, my Lord,” Fulk bowed.

“Go and do, sir,” Warwick gestured towards the city, “We would hold here for only the fortnight and then we return to Calais.”

Fulk bowed again but looked to his master with a serious eye, “Take a care, my Lord. You need not be told that factors are aligned against you to this place and any one would be pleased to strike if given chance.”

“Why do you think I hold my guard with me?” Warwick gestured to his men, “I will slip in through the kitchens. Should hardly be seen.”

As his man left off to do his bidding, Warwick and his entered the kitchens to the sounds of chopping and cooking. Few of the servants looked up used to as they were to much activity but when one of the scullions turned too quickly with a spit, it very nearly impaled the Earl.

“How dare you?!” Warwick shouted and his men were quick to draw their blades.

The poor scullion quickly dropped to a knee, “M’lord! I did not...”

“Shut your mouth!” Hastings answered him quickly, “Do not say you do not recognize this Lord!”

“I was not...” the man tried to say again but Warwick’s men surrounded him and began to push and shove.

Warwick himself stood back and shouted again, “I believe the man had wish to see me dead! Surely instructed by the Queen to murder me upon sight!”

“That’s not true!!” another royal servant called out and quickly the kitchen staff began to fight with Warwick’s men to protect their own.

“Alarm! Alarm!!” another royal servant called out and soon the royal guard entered the kitchens with their own arms raised.

The scuffle lasted less then a few minutes and no one was truly harmed, but Warwick’s retinue gained the upper hand and seized the unfortunate scullion. By now, the Earl of Wiltshire had heard of the commotion and entered the kitchens himself, “What happens to here?!”

Hastings pointed, “An attempt on my Lord’s life, sir! Surely told to him by the Queen, this scoundrel came very near to skewering the Earl of Warwick!!”

“Preposterous!” Wiltshire answered.

Warwick showed him a fierce eye and then said to them all, “We shall know the truth of this! If it truly is a plot by the Queen then she can answer for it!”

With the strength not in his favor, Wiltshire was forced to follow as Warwick and his dragged the man before the Queen as she received to the hall and Margaret was not happy to be interrupted especially when she spied Neville, “You have much nerve to show yourself here and to my presence!”

There were gasps by many to the hall but Warwick stood tall as his men held the poor scullion, “And I say to you, Your Grace...this man is a criminal!”

“Who is he?” Margaret looked on with confusion.

There were further gasps as Hastings recounted the tale and Margaret narrowed her eyes, “You accuse the man of attempted murder?”

“I do!” Warwick answered proudly, “By parties I would not name, but surely part of some plot!”

The young Lord of Somerset was in attendance and he stepped forward, “Why would you not name them, my Lord? If you are to accuse, then do so!”

“I have plenty of witnesses,” Warwick looked from him back to the Queen, “All did see what happened. It was as clear as day and now all here have heard the sad tale. There may be some parties here that would not wish a further telling, but if one should wish a trial, I would be more than happy to recount the why and the how of it.”

By now even King Henry had been alerted and he had removed himself from prayer to see about the commotion. As he entered the hall, everyone gave bow and as he waved a hand he asked, “What is all this?”

“Your Grace...” Hastings bowed again, “...this servant has attempted to murder the Earl of Warwick.”

“Is this true?” Henry looked to his wife.

Margaret shot daggers with her eyes to Warwick before turning to the King, “It would appear so. Surely an unfortunate incident, but the Earl did fear for his life it would seem.”

“That is unfortunate,” Henry looked with sadness to them all and waved another hand as he departed, “Take the appropriate steps, to be sure. We approve and will pray for his soul.”

“There you have it...Your Grace,” Warwick looked to the Queen, “What would you have done? Shall he receive his just punishment or should we drag this out into trial?”

Margaret remained silent for a time before holding up her hand with great anger, “Take him to a cell. We shall order an execution on the morrow.”

She quickly left the hall followed be her Ladies and Wiltshire. Young Somerset followed after and eventually Edward of York stepped forward to his cousin, “I thought you to be discreet, my Lord.”

Warwick held up his hands as he watched the poor scullion hauled away and showed a pained face, “What was I to do, Ned? The bastard tried to skewer me!”

“I highly doubt that,” Edward too looked after the man and then turned back to his cousin, “Wrong place and wrong time, seems like to me. Why did you not simply present as you are?”

“Ned...” the older Earl looked to him with a slight smile, “...it works. She might have defended the man but knew that if she did, she would have been accused of murder herself.”

Edward skewed an eye, “Do you think she meant it? Was truly behind it?”

“Who may know?” Warwick grinned, “Does it matter? All heard the tale here today and too many would believe it. That is her reputation and especially to here. All know that she hates me after the last time I was to court and it is all too believable.”

“Except papa is not here at the now but rather to Ludlow,” Edward answered him, “Would not sit the council meet she is sure to order after this. He has not enough time to be there for it will likely be this day and so you will likely see a warrant ordered up for yourself if you are right.”

“You spend too much time at court, young Ned,” Warwick replied.

Edward did not smile in return, “And I should think you may wish me to court. I see what happens to here. I may still be young, cousin, but I have been given an education as papa would desire. From my knowing, there are few that may be kind to you. Especially without my father’s calming hand and persuasive words. Especially not Beaufort who now sits on council.”

“I had though you to be persuasive with the young Lord,” the older Earl answered.

“And thus my letter to you,” Edward replied, “Be aware at all costs. He likes you not and it has caused a rift between us. You see how he follows her...as he used to follow me. He wishes you dead, cousin. I should not to think it, but if anyone has put a plot to you...it is likely he.”

Warwick pressed, “Then you must double your efforts. Your father would wish no thing more.”

“It would do no good,” Edward answered, “I would salvage what I may of the friendship, but his mind is made up. You killed his father, cousin. That he may never forgive. And if he has any sway with Her Grace the Queen...”

“Who would also wish me dead,” Warwick admitted.

Edward gave nod, “Indeed so as you predict...I fear our meet here to be a short one. I warn you out of care, cousin. I should not like to see you harmed. It is a very uneasy peace that we share at this time. I know not how much longer I myself may stay to court. It is not like it was and appears more harsh each day.”

“You may come to Warwick Castle with me, Ned,” the Earl suggested, “Your father would wish your safety.”

“Nay, cousin,” Edward replied, “Yet you should go there now and then back to Calais. I can protect myself and hold my own small retinue to Baynard’s. If the worst comes, I shall call for papa and he will be right here.”

“Ned...” Warwick looked to him with an earnest eye, “...the last time I saw your father we did have a great row.”

Edward gave nod, “I heard.”

“He thinks that I am too bold,” Warwick added.

“I do not disagree,” Edward suggested, “Yet...at times...boldness is required I have found in my learning.”

The Earl of Warwick looked to his younger cousin for a moment before giving answer, “I will not stop, Ned. There is but one way to take down this Queen and it is to prove her perfidy to all. Every time she is pressed...she makes mistake. She is unlearned.”

“The Saxons called that unræd,” Edward smiled, “More than five hundred years and it is still a thing. I believe that we should all take note. I was sent here to do that very action.”

“Yet you must know...learn...the worry that she presents!” Warwick was certain.

Edward was just as sure, “I know the worry that you present and that is how much longer you stand before me. Find your safety, cousin, for you will not find it here. The bells toll upon the hour and if another strikes and you remain, you will find yourself to the Tower. She will make certain!”

 

[HistoryDude]

Ned and Warwick seem to have an alliance now.

It's a shame that the new Somerset and Ned broke off their friendship. Let's hope that they don't end up killing each other...

 

[El Pip]

So much to catch up on as Coz continues his reckless updatery.

I am frankly disappointed in Warwick's piracy, not so much the act of it but the ineptitude and poor choice of targets. As York said it was not smart to play with the Hanse, but if Warwick had to then make a big thing that the agreement was with the Queen and she lacked the power to do so. The smart choice would have been the many Italian merchants, they have no treaty and ti would directly threaten the Queen as well as weaken her faction. Poor politics, especially as it then relied on York weaselling him out of it. That said Warwick had the better of the post council chat, York is now just dragging things out to sooth his own conscience so the quicker he stops faffing about the better for all involved and the wider Kingdom.

Then we see some gains and losses, the return of Norfolk and the tragic loss of Talbot. In practical terms this is a very poor trade, but in narrative terms we lose a barely seen character who always threatened to be a deus ex machina (Talbot returning to London with an army and just thrashing everyone into peace) and gain an interesting personality in council, a powerful figure who is still somewhat neutral and not tied to either side.

Sadly it seems Henry Beaufort is still being an idiot, I can understand not letting go of his anger about his father but he is mixing up forgiving and forgetting - no-one is actually asking him to forget yet that is what he complains about. These are not promising signs, but then looking at his parentage expectations were not that great to start with. I do feel a bit sorry for Ned, but overall he would be better off with someone who isn't a complete idiot.

And then the last scene and a return to terrifying form for Warwick. Getting an almost certainly innocent man executed just to make the Queen look worse is incredibly callous yet it will be very effective. With that and secreting his spy into position he is once again showing his Kingmaking chops, making the Hanse play all the more out of character. I can certainly see Ned and Warwick doing great things together, probably terrible things as well, but certainly getting things done. I also have to say that calling Margaret unræd is true but incredibly generous, her biggest faults is not her learning or her advice, it is her impatient, self-centred and arrogant personality. If anything you could try and say it is the King himself that is unræd, he is indeed badly advised by those closest to him.

 

[El Pip]

So much to catch up on as Coz continues his reckless updatery.

I am frankly disappointed in Warwick's piracy, not so much the act of it but the ineptitude and poor choice of targets. As York said it was not smart to play with the Hanse, but if Warwick had to then make a big thing that the agreement was with the Queen and she lacked the power to do so. The smart choice would have been the many Italian merchants, they have no treaty and ti would directly threaten the Queen as well as weaken her faction. Poor politics, especially as it then relied on York weaselling him out of it. That said Warwick had the better of the post council chat, York is now just dragging things out to sooth his own conscience so the quicker he stops faffing about the better for all involved and the wider Kingdom.

Then we see some gains and losses, the return of Norfolk and the tragic loss of Talbot. In practical terms this is a very poor trade, but in narrative terms we lose a barely seen character who always threatened to be a deus ex machina (Talbot returning to London with an army and just thrashing everyone into peace) and gain an interesting personality in council, a powerful figure who is still somewhat neutral and not tied to either side.

Sadly it seems Henry Beaufort is still being an idiot, I can understand not letting go of his anger about his father but he is mixing up forgiving and forgetting - no-one is actually asking him to forget yet that is what he complains about. These are not promising signs, but then looking at his parentage expectations were not that great to start with. I do feel a bit sorry for Ned, but overall he would be better off with someone who isn't a complete idiot.

And then the last scene and a return to terrifying form for Warwick. Getting an almost certainly innocent man executed just to make the Queen look worse is incredibly callous yet it will be very effective. With that and secreting his spy into position he is once again showing his Kingmaking chops, making the Hanse play all the more out of character. I can certainly see Ned and Warwick doing great things together, probably terrible things as well, but certainly getting things done. I also have to say that calling Margaret unræd is true but incredibly generous, her biggest faults is not her learning or her advice, it is her impatient, self-centred and arrogant personality. If anything you could try and say it is the King himself that is unræd, he is indeed badly advised by those closest to him.

 

[Idhrendur]

So much to catch up on as Coz continues his reckless updatery.

Story of my life when it comes to his AARs. Worth it, always, but so much to read at times.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Ned and Warwick seem to have an alliance now.

It's a shame that the new Somerset and Ned broke off their friendship. Let's hope that they don't end up killing each other...

I think Ned is just an extension of the York alliance, but yes. Especially as he may deviate from his father in coming years.

And Ned and Somerset are not yet done with each other. Their relationship is just more complicated.

So much to catch up on as Coz continues his reckless updatery.

So much so that you gave me the old double post. Forum has been a little wonky the last couple of days and it happened to me too.

I am frankly disappointed in Warwick's piracy, not so much the act of it but the ineptitude and poor choice of targets. As York said it was not smart to play with the Hanse, but if Warwick had to then make a big thing that the agreement was with the Queen and she lacked the power to do so. The smart choice would have been the many Italian merchants, they have no treaty and ti would directly threaten the Queen as well as weaken her faction. Poor politics, especially as it then relied on York weaselling him out of it. That said Warwick had the better of the post council chat, York is now just dragging things out to sooth his own conscience so the quicker he stops faffing about the better for all involved and the wider Kingdom.

Hey! Look at that! You agree with Margaret on something!

That said, I cannot disagree. He was doing it to quite a few but the Hanse incident is what put it over the edge. (And it was a true story.) The piracy in the channel is quite bad and while some of them being French pirates begs some question given their weakness, I imagine at least some enterprising Frechies would go for it.

And quick note to self...remember to tell the Duke of York to "stop faffing about." I'm sure he'll take that well.

Then we see some gains and losses, the return of Norfolk and the tragic loss of Talbot. In practical terms this is a very poor trade, but in narrative terms we lose a barely seen character who always threatened to be a deus ex machina (Talbot returning to London with an army and just thrashing everyone into peace) and gain an interesting personality in council, a powerful figure who is still somewhat neutral and not tied to either side.

Indeed. And I rather like writing for Norfolk. I do not get to often as he is a rather cagey fellow and doesn't commit often. But he does play a foil and so a natural ally to York.

Sadly it seems Henry Beaufort is still being an idiot, I can understand not letting go of his anger about his father but he is mixing up forgiving and forgetting - no-one is actually asking him to forget yet that is what he complains about. These are not promising signs, but then looking at his parentage expectations were not that great to start with. I do feel a bit sorry for Ned, but overall he would be better off with someone who isn't a complete idiot.

Cannot disagree here either, but it does make some sense to me. IRL, he did not just jump right away into the Queen's bed like his father even though that would seem natural. Part the reason why it made some sense to me that he could have developed a deeper relationship with Edward (whether sexual or not.) But something did bring him into direct conflict with Warwick during this time and the only thing that makes sense is the idea of vengeance.

And then the last scene and a return to terrifying form for Warwick. Getting an almost certainly innocent man executed just to make the Queen look worse is incredibly callous yet it will be very effective. With that and secreting his spy into position he is once again showing his Kingmaking chops, making the Hanse play all the more out of character. I can certainly see Ned and Warwick doing great things together, probably terrible things as well, but certainly getting things done. I also have to say that calling Margaret unræd is true but incredibly generous, her biggest faults is not her learning or her advice, it is her impatient, self-centred and arrogant personality. If anything you could try and say it is the King himself that is unræd, he is indeed badly advised by those closest to him.

The spy angle is from my mind (though we must assume he did something of the sort) but the kitchen incident is directly from the historical record. We could possibly give Margaret some credit as supposedly she pardoned the man the very next day, but as you suggest - it matters not in regards to Warwick's callousness. It is part the reason I wanted to include so much about Warwick in this chapter (so much so that it is named for him.) I hope it really does show that there is not too terribly much difference between the Queen and the future would be Kingmaker (at least to me.)

Story of my life when it comes to his AARs. Worth it, always, but so much to read at times.

Ha!

I do appreciate the sentiment (both, really.) I have tried to space the updates out just a bit more to assist, but when I write, I write! I hate to get too far ahead of where I am in the story and where I am in the posting of the story. That said, I know it makes it difficult to keep up. It is enough for me to know that you are following and supportive. Any comment I get is the extra candy on top of the cake so thank you.


To all - The next update will follow on Friday so still a bit of time to get caught up for those that need or want to. And in the writing, I am finally close to finishing with chapter 14 after a bit of a break this past week revealing the YaYas. The next two chapters will be rather action packed. I can't wait for you to read it. Thanks all for following along and giving comment.

 

[El Pip]

I hope it really does show that there is not too terribly much difference between the Queen and the future would be Kingmaker (at least to me.)

I honestly did try to think about this, but I'm afraid it still remains baffling to me. I fear you have spectacularly misjudged things here my friend.

To keep it short imagine if the positions were reversed and it was Margaret as the ally of York and Warwick as consort to a dodering and absent monarch. Warwick being far more ruthless and indeed competent would have long since arranged for a tragic accident or imprisonment for Margaret, certainly he would have ensured the court case around the piracy was rigged to produce the outcome he wanted. He also is pragmatic enough to come to a deal with York, sacrificing a few inept fawning sycophants in order to keep power is a deal Warwick would do all day long, but one that Margaret is too selfish, arrogant and frankly bad at politics to make. I am reminded of the words of Michael Corleone "Never hate your enemies it affects your judgement", Margaret never had the best judgement to start with so this has hit her particularly badly while I think Warwick is wise enough to rise above it and plan with a clear head, his outbursts are to manipulate York and others but do not drive his actions.

Both are ambitious it is true and both are more active than the person nominally leading their faction, but much beyond that I struggle to see much similarity in either personality or skill.

 

[coz1]

I honestly did try to think about this, but I'm afraid it still remains baffling to me. I fear you have spectacularly misjudged things here my friend.

To keep it short imagine if the positions were reversed and it was Margaret as the ally of York and Warwick as consort to a dodering and absent monarch. Warwick being far more ruthless and indeed competent would have long since arranged for a tragic accident or imprisonment for Margaret, certainly he would have ensured the court case around the piracy was rigged to produce the outcome he wanted. He also is pragmatic enough to come to a deal with York, sacrificing a few inept fawning sycophants in order to keep power is a deal Warwick would do all day long, but one that Margaret is too selfish, arrogant and frankly bad at politics to make. I am reminded of the words of Michael Corleone "Never hate your enemies it affects your judgement", Margaret never had the best judgement to start with so this has hit her particularly badly while I think Warwick is wise enough to rise above it and plan with a clear head, his outbursts are to manipulate York and others but do not drive his actions.

Both are ambitious it is true and both are more active than the person nominally leading their faction, but much beyond that I struggle to see much similarity in either personality or skill.

I suppose I mean in their general self interest rather than the means they go about showing it. To both, that seems all important over anything else.

 

[Historywhiz]

I suppose I mean in their general self interest rather than the means they go about showing it. To both, that seems all important over anything else.

So much self-interest, then and now. Everyone expects it, everyone calculates around it, and everyone infers in its absence signs of weakness, stupidity, or vacillation.

Why can’t we all be like the good King Henry? Or even York in his more noble moments? Why not suffer for the benefit of others? Why not turn the other cheek? Why not pursue a dignity and honor more valuable than any earthly good? Oh I tire greatly of hearing long-winded sophisms about how helping others is good because it is in one’s rational self-interest, or about how human life has some inherent value to it beneficial to others. Be man a blessing or a burden, or be aid a deposit in the bank of karma or a toss into the wind, there remains a poorness to focusing on that which is frail, flawed, and mortal as we all are, when something more perfect dangles in reach.

Man cannot justify its existence, but altruism can.

 

[coz1]

So much self-interest, then and now. Everyone expects it, everyone calculates around it, and everyone infers in its absence signs of weakness, stupidity, or vacillation.

Why can’t we all be like the good King Henry? Or even York in his more noble moments? Why not suffer for the benefit of others? Why not turn the other cheek? Why not pursue a dignity and honor more valuable than any earthly good? Oh I tire greatly of hearing long-winded sophisms about how helping others is good because it is in one’s rational self-interest, or about how human life has some inherent value to it beneficial to others. Be man a blessing or a burden, or be aid a deposit in the bank of karma or a toss into the wind, there remains a poorness to focusing on that which is frail, flawed, and mortal as we all are, when something more perfect dangles in reach.

Man cannot justify its existence, but altruism can.

Great comment! Would that Margaret or Warwick be so philosophical. I believe that Henry does show some of that yet at times, in not acting stronger, he allows the others to act out. Plus, to him, God justifies his existence and his place so I think that is all he really thinks about now.

Next update arrives in a moment and brings back a character we've not seen for awhile.

 

[coz1]

Ludlow Castle, November 1458​

“My Lord Duke,” the page announced, “The Lady Alice Chaucer, Dowager Duchess of Suffolk arrives with her son, John de la Pole, Earl of Suffolk.”

Cecily peered to Richard with some unease, “Are we certain that we wish to pursue this?”

“It is too rich not to consider,” the Duke watched the door, “It would not have been my idea nor yours, but that she brings it to us...”

“She may still serve the Queen,” she rounded to stand next to him, “We should be careful.”

Richard gave nod as Alice Chaucer entered and bowed her head before turning to show her son, “My Lord Richard...Lady Cecily...it has been some time since we are met. Allow me to present my son John, now six and ten much like your own eldest son, and ready to take his place among his peers.”

John was indeed near the same age as Edward, but he did not show the same height nor handsomeness. Yet he did hold manners and presented both with a bow, “My Lord and Lady, we are well pleased to have been invited.”

“Speak no thing of it, young sir,” Cecily smiled as she went to greet them, “I have not seen your mother in five years, I believe. And we did hold fine times back to Rouen so many years ago.”

Alice allowed a slight nod, “It seems as if another life, my Lady.”

“There is indeed truth to that statement,” Richard gestured for some chairs before the hearth, “Please do sit, Lady Alice. Mayhap we should call in the children, my dear wife?”

Never one to let a chance go when she might present her own fine brood, Cecily called out, “Edmund! Elizabeth! Margaret! Come in now and bring your little brothers!”

They dutifully filed in and Cecily smiled as she walked down the line, “My Lady Alice...here is Edmund. Now five and ten. Perhaps he and your John might like to do some stalking later?”

Alice looked to her son first before turning with a smile, “I should think that a fine idea. There is better game here than to Wallingford yet he is a fine hunter.”

“And more importantly, my Lady...” Cecily followed, “...here are my daughters, Elizabeth and Margaret.”

“See, John?” Alice again looked to her son, “I told you they were precious.”

John was a perfect gentleman and bowed to both girls, “My Ladies...my mother could not have possibly spoken higher of you and yet she still did not express fully your beauty or your charm.”

“I am pleased to thank you, sir,” Elizabeth batted her eyelashes with a pretty smile.

Margaret followed in the same manner, “You are far too kind, my Lord.”

“They do not lack in suitors, I may assure you,” Cecily held their shoulders with pride, “Yet such sweet roses should be carefully plucked, do you not think?”

Alice allowed a kind nod before turning to the younger boys, “Yet who are these dear cherubs, my Lady? Can this possibly be your George?”

“Indeed it is,” Cecily moved to him and pinched his shoulder so he would stop fidgeting, “Now nine and growing every day. A scamp at times, he will equal his brothers, I am certain. And finally our dearest Richard. Six now and already springing up like a tree.”

“Welcome, my Lady,” young Richard showed a deep bow.

“Oh how perfect indeed!” Alice clasped her hands together with a smile, “You are a right gentle man, young sir.”

The Duke placed a strong hand to his youngest son’s shoulder, “There is some thing to be said about being the baby of the family. He has his elder siblings as guides and learns from their every step.”

“Indeed he does,” Cecily looked to her children, “And now mayhap you would show this Earl around these parts?”

To a one they answered, “Yes, mama.”

John seemed pleased to follow them and especially looked after Elizabeth and once they were gone from the hall, Alice turned back to the Duke and Duchess, “I must say...you have done well.”

As pleasant as she had been, Cecily now moved to pour two cups of wine with a brisk tone, “You may drop your charade, Lady Alice. You and I both know that there has never been great love between us. I invite you to honor my husband, yet I know not what is to be found here.”

“Now wife...” Richard gently admonished, “...let us be charitable.”

Alice found a chair and accepted her cup with a nod, “There be no need to apologize, my Lord. Lady Cecily is quite correct. In my former life, I too could afford to be prideful...”

“Prideful?!” Cecily showed a shock.

“Ladies...” Richard held up a hand and then gestured for his wife to take a chair, “...let us all be well met at the time and forget years gone by.”

Cecily sat in a huff, “I will if she will.”

“Again, you need not,” Alice answered to her plainly, “You held your troubles with me and I you, Lady Cecily. When my husband was to power, I did not think it to end. And then it did. Widowhood has changed me.”

“I...I am sorry,” Cecily demurred.

“Good...fine...” Richard too found a chair, “...now if we might get down to business? I believe that Lady Alice does bring us a prospective match. At the first, however, I must echo my Lady wife. Why? You do know that I held no love for your late husband the Duke of Suffolk and while his manner of death was too gruesome for all, I would not say that I wept terribly. I did not think you to like us, my Lady, so it is passing strange that you might wish to match your son with our daughter.”

Alice gave nod and then looked again to Cecily, “I do believe that the last time we spied each other, it was to the churching of Queen Margaret after the birth of the Prince, is that not right?”

“It is,” Cecily answered quickly, “What of it?”

“Much has changed in these five years,” Alice replied, “Most especially the Queen. Mayhap, and more importantly, the King. What once was stable is now...not. Do not forget who was my grandfather. I know as much as anyone how absurd things may be.”

Cecily peered closely, “That does not explain why you should give over your reluctance to treat with us.”

“All know you have fine children,” Alice answered, “Mayhap the finest in the kingdom. There is naught that might say that they would not be honored to be matched to them.”

“In matching with them, you would match with us,” Richard suggested, “You realize this, do you not?”

Alice skewed an eye, “May you say that about Henry Holland? Your daughter Anne is a lovely girl, but I think not that the Duke of Exeter shows to you much loyalty. He rarely shows it to anyone. Do not forget that I was the one that held him for a time to Wallingford when you had him imprisoned after that unfortunate business to the north.”

“I do remember and I thanked you then for that,” Richard replied.

She followed, “So you might know that I am well aware of his proclivities and that you may wish to be more...selective...when you match the rest of your brood.”

“We discuss it all the time,” Cecily turned to look at the roaring fire, “Poor child.”

Richard leaned back to his chair and raised his brow, “Yet I think that not the girl that our Lady Alice has to mind at the now. Is it? You could not have been well pleased when His Grace annulled the marriage between your son and the young Beaufort girl, could you?”

“That is precisely so,” Alice stood to walk to the fire, “If he should be so callous as that...so unthinking...what else might he be willing to do? After all that my husband did for him...whether you agreed with it or no, my Lord Richard...to be tossed aside so readily. So carelessly. Poor William’s own kin to be treated as if they themselves had committed some crime...it is unconscionable.”

“His Grace is...troubled,” Richard suggested.

Alice scoffed as she turned to him, “To the mind, some say! Addled or some such! Not the man..the King that I knew these years ago.”

“It is the wife,” Cecily kept her gaze to the flames, “The Queen that you served.”

Richard looked to the Lady, “Madam...he prays. Perhaps rightly...or wrongly...he is now more looking to God Almighty and I should not blame him for what all goes on to this realm and under his name.”

“And the days of you thinking to do something for it?” Alice questioned, “What happened there, Lord Richard?”

“I am not undone,” Richard leaned back again, “Yet a calmer approach may now be more warranted.”

Alice looked to him with a hard eye, “I think not that this is the approach of the Earl of Warwick, my Lord. Surely you have heard. Whether to Ireland or here, you still have ears, sir!”

“His lot is unfortunate,” Richard replied, “Yet his father and I both hope that he would weather his trials.”

“His trials...or his trial?” Alice asked, “There is warrant out for his arrest and now I am told that he may not hold to Calais as protection. He is to surrender it to young Somerset. And it is not just the Queen, my Lord. Buckingham...Exeter...others? They too would see him relinquish his role to there and find his punishment to court.”

Richard sat forward with certainty, “You are a talented Lady, madam. I should think you know well that he will not do so. His men to both Calais and here hold him in high esteem and he will not whimper when he might bark.”

“He is your dog...” Alice laughed, “...at least that is what the Queen has called him. Yet is he trained or does he run wild?”

Cecily finally stood and looked to her, “My dear, when did court politics gain your fancy again? Have you little else to do in your widowhood? I see little reason to discuss all of this unless you hope to tease from my husband his intentions.”

“I do wish your intentions, sir...as I do you, my Lady,” Alice looked to them both, “For I have heard that young Elizabeth has been bandied about in all manner of matches over these years. She is of course of prime age and would match well with my son. Unlike what I may only assume a young harlot like Margaret Beaufort that should have a child at so...it is too grotesque. I believe my son to have been spared a misery and at this date he and I both hold second chance. I can think of no better for him than your daughter. And if you do hold intention, my Lord...he and I both would readily prove more loyal than Exeter or any other.”

Richard remained silent for a time before finally giving answer, “I imagine that you might. I will certainly consider it along with my Lady wife. Why not retire to your chamber and refresh while we have some victuals prepared. Then we should be pleased to feast with both you and your fine son.”

“Think not too hard upon it, sir,” Alice stood and replied before leaving the hall, “It is times like these when one might wish allies and though we may not have been so in the past, this match might change many a thing.”

After she left, Cecily looked after her with scorn, “And she could just as easily switch back. Recall how hateful she was to you in Rouen? And the husband...my God, Dickon! You detested Suffolk!”

“And yet consider how it may appear,” Richard suggested, “All know my feelings on him but that I would match my daughter with his son? That may go a far way to prove that I am not the petty one. To show that I intend to rebuild as the King desires and not continue to break apart as...she does.”

“The Queen is not the only one breaking things,” Cecily returned to her wine by the fire.

Richard held to the back of his chair as he thought on it, “No. She is not. Yet if Warwick should continue to prove a nuisance, we all shall need proof of our better nature in the eyes of the King. This may assist.”

“Why don’t you just tell our nephew to stop provoking her?” Cecily argued.

He looked to her with an astonished face, “Madam...which way would you have it? I am too kind and you tell me to take full measures. Now we take every measure and you say to cease? I will admit that Warwick shows contempt, but it is no thing that we do not all feel. I have told him to be careful but I will not counsel for him to stop.”

“Then God help us all that we should see our precious Lillibet married to this Suffolk,” Cecily answered to him, “I had higher hopes.”

Richard moved to her and held her hand, “You know as well as I that we match for purpose. I think that this may be part of that purpose.”

 

[El Pip]

Why can’t we all be like the good King Henry?

Because we have higher ambitions and hopes than being a puppet on the string of a French adulteress and traitor?

Or to be somewhat more elegant in the phrasing

Self-love, my liege, is not so vile a sin a as self-neglecting.

But onto the actual update and I find myself liking Lady Alice and somewhat going off Cecily. If nothing else York has a good point that she is quite inconsistent in her advice, save for the fact that whatever he is doing at that precise moment is incorrect. I imagine that is putting a strain on things somewhat.

I must note that York does appear to be trying to have it both ways with Warwick, happy for him to weaken his opponents but only as long as he is deniable. Given almost no-one is going to believe the latter (save perhaps Henry and frankly he is a figurehead at best at this point) all he is doing is undermining one of his most powerful allies and setting up the seeds of potential future problems.

Plus of course he should just bloody well get on with it, though I am aware we are still a year or so away from that.

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

Marry Elisabeth to de la Pole and then offer Lady Alice a bit of Malmsey...

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Because we have higher ambitions and hopes than being a puppet on the string of a French adulteress and traitor?

Or to be somewhat more elegant in the phrasing

My first glance at the Dauphin's comment is probably too dirty to share. Yet to press your anti-French inclinations, allow me to quote from La Rochefoucauld:

Self-love is the love of the self and of all things for the self; it makes men idolaters of themselves, and would make them the tyrants of others, if fortune gave them the means. It never rests outside oneself, but only stops in others as bees stop on flowers, to take from them what is proper to it.

From The Moral Maxims and Reflections of the Duke de la Rochefoucauld, Maxims I.2

Shakespeare was onto something, no doubt. He would not be the first nor last. In truth, we can see from much literature over the years this idea of self interest or perhaps more importantly, self care. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, yet at times can come to work at cross purposes. So many of these characters look to self first. And at the expense of others. Now to look at Altruism as defined as the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others. The idea has at times taken on a Randian quality over the years in which it is disqualified or neglected for self purpose and personal freedom (which I can both get behind and deny entirely - hey, we get to choose!) I think La Rochefoucauld says it quite well for these characters, Henry just as much as the rest. His is more spiritual, to be sure, in that he thinks that God will not only save himself but so too that of his kingdom and country. Yet you are right in that he neglects the proper thinking on the matter when time and again he has been challenged and is unwilling or unable (questionable) to do much about it.

Margaret, York, Warwick, Cecily...the list goes on. What is it that they want...and why? That is my fascination with this history and this story. In narrative and/or theatrical terms, what is their motivation? Each has one from King Henry all the way down the line. All of them motivated above all by self interest of a kind. It is the motivation that makes them interesting to me as a writer trying to get into their heads all of these many years later. I don't mind the judgment as it is both warranted and desired. If they were not judged...well, I wouldn't be doing my job correctly.

But onto the actual update and I find myself liking Lady Alice and somewhat going off Cecily. If nothing else York has a good point that she is quite inconsistent in her advice, save for the fact that whatever he is doing at that precise moment is incorrect. I imagine that is putting a strain on things somewhat.

I must note that York does appear to be trying to have it both ways with Warwick, happy for him to weaken his opponents but only as long as he is deniable. Given almost no-one is going to believe the latter (save perhaps Henry and frankly he is a figurehead at best at this point) all he is doing is undermining one of his most powerful allies and setting up the seeds of potential future problems.

Plus of course he should just bloody well get on with it, though I am aware we are still a year or so away from that.

First of all, I am pleased to see Alice get some love. I have enjoyed writing the very few scenes I've been able to include for her because she was an interesting woman. I include this scene not just to bring her back, however, but because it does seem that York tried to "play nice" as it were. I had to stop and catch up when I realized I might miss this moment. Here we have York marrying his daughter to the son of the man he detested! What the what?! Yet it did happen and the above scene makes so much sense to me. The match does not bring York any great value in terms of money in that the Duke of Suffolk's kin were denied quite a lot after he fell from grace (as it were) and it is clear from the record that the son was not to be raised as highly as his father (hence his title as only Earl rather than Duke.)

Yet the strategic value makes total sense. It is true that Lady Alice doesn't bring much military value to the equation despite being still named Duchess and her son an Earl (and in all of my reading, it seems as if John de la Pole pretty much stayed out of the fracas) but the appearance of it may mean quite a lot. Can York work with others? Is he to be trusted and not just entirely...what? Self interested. We know that he is, but they don't. And as to having it both ways, that is entirely right. When I write for York, I imagine a modern politician (rightly or wrongly.) And for that, plausible deniability is everything.

Finally, if you are turning on Cecily you may have an ally in @Midnite Duke because best I can tell, he does not think highly of her.

Marry Elisabeth to de la Pole and then offer Lady Alice a bit of Malmsey...

Now why would you want to get rid of Chaucer's granddaughter so rudely? Yet if we trek on with this tale, this match may matter.


To all - Damn I love your comments, folks! Some very interesting things to consider and I do not mind saying that it colors my writing. And on that score, I am just about to finish chapter 14 and have outlined chapters 15 through 17 just this morning. The next scene in this chapter (still on 12) will come tomorrow so still time to catch up for those that wish it. As always, thank you to all that read and comment. You make writing this so much more fun!

 

[HistoryDude]

The Suffolks are considering an alliance with York... it seems like the Queen is losing supporters.

York is still trying to deny involvement with Warwick, which might prove problematic. Of course, I'm also worried that Warwick might start acting on his own. What would York do then? War against his former chief ally?

 

[Midnite Duke]

Warwick reminds me of John Hancock. Smuggler, plotter against the crown. What does Richard Neville's signature look like?

Is the language of England's court still French or is Fancy in a foreign environment speaking an unfamiliar language?

 

[coz1]

More fb-fb:

The Suffolks are considering an alliance with York... it seems like the Queen is losing supporters.

York is still trying to deny involvement with Warwick, which might prove problematic. Of course, I'm also worried that Warwick might start acting on his own. What would York do then? War against his former chief ally?

Indeed, not everyone is falling in line with the Queen. As to York, he wouldn't push Warwick away too far because he needs him. But yes, he wants to be able to deny.

Warwick reminds me of John Hancock. Smuggler, plotter against the crown. What does Richard Neville's signature look like?

Is the language of England's court still French or is Fancy in a foreign environment speaking an unfamiliar language?

I should think the court still speaks French in official matters and she likely uses far more French that I present.

 

[coz1]

Westminster, November 1458​

“I seriously cannot believe that we are here yet again for such purpose!” the Earl of Warwick raised his voice in front of the Council, “It be clear now who is my accuser. Why is she not here?!”

The Duke of Buckingham did not allow himself to be baited, “I honestly cannot believe that you are here either, my Lord. Knowing that warrant is out for you, there is a great risk you take.”

“And the Queen is not to here for it is the King’s Council that we hold,” the Bishop if Winchester suggested strongly.

Warwick looked to all assembled with disdain, “I hold great doubt that the King calls for my arrest nor to relinquish my post in Calais. If he does, then I would very much like to hear it from his own lips.”

“The King is at prayer!” Wiltshire answered quickly.

“Always and forever,” Warwick replied, “So I ask again...if it be not his voice, then let us be clear. It is the Queen that holds design against me despite all that I have done for His Grace, and I shall not be judged by you! It is Parliament that appointed me to my post and it is to Parliament that I would answer should the King wish not to be here.”

“You take a large hazard, sir,” the young Duke of Somerset sat forward in anger, “More to that, I believe you to threaten us all!”

“My Lords...” the Archbishop tried to calm the members but he was shouted down.

Warwick was prime among them, “I am not a fool, young Lord! At my last visit, murder was on the mind. I cannot imagine much has changed in that time.”

“Yet you bring a veritable army to London, sir!” the Duke of Exeter suggested with purpose, “For what other reason but to sow discord?!”

“For my own life and safety!” the Earl announced to them.

Buckingham answered, “If you have done so little wrong, why would you fear?”

“Are you a dunce or merely obtuse, my Lord?!” Warwick looked to him with great irritation, “Mayhap your age or injury plays with your mind, sir!”

“How dare you?!” Wiltshire spoke out.

Warwick looked to him with the same disgust, “And how dare you...sir?! As I recall I found you hiding under a stack of barrels when the King should have been protected. If ever a coward existed, it is you and I shall answer no more to such!”

“My Lord of Warwick...” the Lord Chancellor tried to calm, “...all of you...the Archbishop is quite correct that we should temper our emotions...”

“I will not be challenged!” Warwick remained incensed, “Not now! Not ever by this lot! The whole of you are hand picked by this Queen that wishes no thing more but my death. I have said this to you...and it appears that you do not care!”

Henry Beaufort stood and slammed a hand to the table, “And why should we care? You be most foul, sir! You slander the Queen and break every rule put to you. More to that, you ignore and vilify the very treaties signed and desired by the King himself!”

“Have you been fucking her, boy?” Warwick showed a fierce eye, “Then you might see that she holds the seal and signs his name whenever she might!”

The whole of the chamber erupted in jeers and even the Archbishop was mortified, “That is uncalled for!”

“And there you go again!” Somerset followed.

Buckingham replied as well, “You do poorly to defend yourself, my Lord. These are words of a traitor and an emotion that loves not the King.”

“Nor will you find any defenders here,” Exeter too called forth, “Norfolk declined his call and Northumberland is well busy to the north...for reasons you may well know. As to my father in law...”

“Spare me any sense that you hold faith with him, sir!” Warwick persisted, “He is grief stricken that such a man might wed his daughter and be such a poor example. As to the rest of you...if you do not like my words, then make your claim! I am finished arguing my place and will answer only to Parliament and the King! A good day to you all, sirs!”

He moved to leave and they all stood to stop him but he turned with defiance, “If you would cause me to halt, then you would answer to my blade! I said to you good day!”

As he exited the Council chamber, Warwick gathered his now rather large retinue around him and moved from the palace. Yet he did not get far before other armed men met him to the streets of Westminster. Hastings was the first to sight them, “My Lord...I spy the badges of Somerset and Wiltshire among this crowd. They do not come to talk.”

“Yet they will find answer all the same!” the Earl pulled his sword and stood firm as his men did likewise.

“You do not enjoy the sights, sir?” William Tailboys stepped forward with his own weapon, “It seems that you leave too swiftly and my Lords would have you detained.”

Warwick sneered, “I spy you there, Tailboys. You are a freak and so it surprises me not that you lead this murderous squad.”

“You wound me, my Lord,” William suggested with a grin.

Warwick did not stand down, “I will!”

“Take him!” Tailboys shouted to his soldiers.

To the streets just outside Westminster, the two forces met and the clash of swords was unmistakable. Any innocent bystander was lucky to get out from under them as they battled. Somerset’s men were especially eager to get to the Earl but Warwick and Hastings stood back to back and took on them all. The men of Calais were experienced fighters but after a time, they knew that they were outnumbered.

“My Lord!” Hastings shouted, “You must leave this city or surely they will kill you!”

Warwick shouted in reply, “I will not stand down!”

A spear narrowly missed the Earl’s shoulder and Hastings called out again, “I implore you, my Lord! Let us fight a retreat and meet on fairer ground!”

Taking a glancing blow to his sword, Warwick finally relented as he yelled, “Fucking Queen! Pull back!!”

His men did so and fought to get their leader to safety. Loathe to leave his soldiers, Warwick was finally pulled from the scrape and Hastings gestured strongly to a waiting horse, “You must get to Warwick Castle, my Lord! I will send word to your father. He will meet you there. Now go!!”

“I cannot leave them!” he answered.

Hastings was certain, “Then you will not live!!”

With great distress, the Earl did so and beat a path out of the city with immediate haste. A hard rain began to fall as he rode as swiftly as he might and by the time he reached his stronghold it was the dead of night and he was soaked. His wife and young daughters were to Middleham with his mother in the north and so the castle was very nearly deserted but for his servants and the garrison. Each part of his uniform was cast aside as he demanded a warm fire to the hall and he sat with anger close to the flames as they grew. With them, so too did his own furious pain.

After a while, the cock crowed in the distance and light began to fill the hall from the windows above. He finally heard a voice, “My son...what have you done?”

“Father?” Warwick stood tall.

The Earl of Salisbury stepped to him with tenderness and looked to his son’s now nearly naked body, “You look as if a wet dog, sir. I think not that the night has been kind to you.”

“How did you get here so readily?” Warwick asked.

Salisbury smiled, “Hastings, of course. He’s a good man. Very nearly. Took a wound or two from your fight.”

“I was set upon!” Warwick was sure.

“And yet why?” his father asked, “If you poke at a trapped animal, will it not strike out?”

“Father...did we not start down this path nearly a year ago?” his son pleaded.

Salisbury allowed a grin, “Some would say that the Duke of York started down this path nearly a decade ago. Is he any further along?”

“Because of weak steps!” Warwick was certain, “Even at strength as at St. Albans, it is all too wasted in the after. He coddles this King and in so doing, allows the whore to prosper!”

“And you believe that you are the man to further the cause in a manner that has alluded York?”

Warwick showed a sorrow, “Father...I am sorry. But you are too much for safety.”

“And you, my son, are not enough,” Salisbury admonished, “And certainly not at the now. If we have ever been hunted, and we have, then the hunter is right behind you and ready to strike. While this is a strong keep, there is only so long that you might hold out when they come for you. And they will. Buckingham...Exeter...certainly Wiltshire and Somerset. Mayhap even Northumberland and Clifford though I do keep them well busy to the north. Your only hope at the now is to return to Calais.”

“She will come for me there as well,” Warwick suggested, “That is now her latest goal.”

Salisbury gave nod, “And yet the men there are loyal to you and she will find the taking of it wanting. With Talbot gone, there are few that could press you from that place. Not even Leicester.”

“Then she will come after you instead,” the son warned.

“She may try,” Salisbury allowed, “Yet it would be difficult with you on one side of her and I on the other. Do not discount York, either. His fight is not yet done and if it comes to it, we must all gather as one. While I would prefer peace...I am prepared to do what needs must. Fly to Calais, my son. Allow the tempers to cool. It is what you must do at the now.”

Warwick pressed, “I will not be patient!”

“And so...here we are,” Salisbury answered, “Allow me a tale, sir. There are two foxes. The one...he sees every prey and goes after it immediately. After some time, the prey realizes that the area is not safe and wander off elsewhere. Unlike the second fox. He waits and takes only what he knows he can eat. All the while, the prey remains unawares and so there remains a plenty.”

“Your folksy tales have never been my favorite, father,” Warwick replied.

Salisbury allowed a smile, “And yet, you listen to them anyway. You should listen to me now.”

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

“The King is at prayer!”

Bullshit.

Alright, I'm on Warwick's side now. This is getting ridiculous. Storm the castle, and the Chapel if needs be, and drag that sorry ass King out in front of everyone and have him finally make one sodding decision for his Crown, or have him removed from it.

At this point, civil war is preferable to leaving this court and that woman in charge.

 

[HistoryDude]

Warwick is acting too rashly. He's right, of course, but even so...

Why hasn't the king attempted to reign Margaret in at all, though? One would think that he would want to prevent outright targeting of Yorkists at the very least... unless he is praying as England burns.