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Kenilworth Castle, May 1460
“He is a fool and twice over! Mon Dieu!” Margaret paced back and forth, her head steaming.
Bishop Booth attempted to reassure her, “And yet the Lord of Exeter remains true, Your Grace.”
“What worth is that?” she turned to him in anger, “Thought to corral the Venetian fleet? An imbecile! Of course they ran from his advance!”
Wiltshire tried to reason, “They were anchored at the Thames, my Lady. A goodly amount...”
“And merchants!” Margaret shouted, “What good would they be against what we face?”
The Lord Chancellor was present and Bishop Waynflete offered, “It was merely a flotilla in any ways and there was not the coin. What are merchants to do?”
“And this...madam...gets to the trouble,” Bishop Booth looked to his peer of Winchester before turning to the Earl of Wiltshire, “Where is the coin?”
The Earl stiffened, “If His Grace would not wish to call Parliament...which I would not recommend...then the coin is precious. Yet it is there...”
“We were promised!” Margaret turned on him with flared nostrils, “As Treasurer, you are to provide!”
“Of course it is there,” Wiltshire allowed with a smile.
The Lord Chancellor followed, “Her Grace does ask, my Lord. The King has agreed to go to a war footing, yet if we have so little to pay then how are we to do it?”
“Careful accounting, I should think,” Bishop Booth busied himself with some papers and then looked to the Queen, “Your Grace, the King has indeed made progress here and set up his base camp as a military stronghold. We have brought him round thus far. He does believe that we are in imminent danger and...knowing his normal disposition...is that not victory enough?”
Margaret looked to them all with disdain, “I am but a woman...a putain so called by these men that will lose their heads when I hold my way...so how is it that I have more mind about me than all of you combined?!”
“I should agree with the Bishop of Durham, Your Grace,” Wiltshire tried to offer but she would not hear it.
“We have convinced my Henry to come to here,” she pressed, “Indeed because there is action afoot, sirs! One does not capture the King’s family...see raids upon our ports...a chance meeting to Ireland, my Lords?! York means to invade and he means to do so at the now! What do you propose to do about it?!!”
The Bishop of Winchester looked through is own papers and answered, “We have recruited, Your Grace. A goodly amount to Kent and elsewhere. Here now we are strong as so many flock to their King...which was the correct move. We may not know where York would land…
“If indeed he would, my Lady,” Wiltshire offered.
Bishop Booth was certain, “He will land, sirs. As our Lady suggests...it is not a matter of if. The answer to her is our charge. And I put it to you that Somerset wastes away to Calais. There are a good many leaders to here that remain true to His Grace the King, yet none may find more respect than the Duke of Somerset.”
Sensing agreement from Margaret, the Lord Chancellor answered, “He is...slightly battle tested, my Lady...yet would not the Lord of Buckingham be the better of our leaders? More respected for his hereditary role as Constable of the realm and a peer nonpareil?”
“I so tire of the peers within this...realm,” Margaret scoffed, “And Buckingham? Il sera bientôt mort! Bothersome Dukes! Buckingham...Norfolk...Exeter! York!!!”
Booth smiled, “Indeed, Your Grace. Only one peer may pull them all together. And in your name. He is well respected by the Lord of Northumberland in the north and holds many lands here to the south. And young, my Lady. Nor not so very tied to York.”
“Not tied to that York, at least,” Wiltshire smirked and looked away.
Margaret trained her face to him with piercing eyes, “You will find the coin, sir! I will see the Lord of Somerset returned home and you will make it so!”
“And more, Your Grace...” Booth followed, “...should we recruit enough to rescue the Lord, he may use them well for his advantage in Calais and return home triumphant.”
She liked that and agreed, “Quite so! Have Somerset best Warwick there and then come back and beat York to here.”
The Bishop of Winchester looked to the Earl of Wiltshire for some assistance and finding none turned to the Queen, “My Lady...Your Grace...I am sure that we may do one but mayhap not the both. I am aware of a man...Mountfort who was Captain of Calais for a time and knows well Trollope. I should believe that he and a body of reinforcements would be able to rescue our Duke of Somerset. Yet our true threat is Warwick as he is there and he holds far more men. Trained men. As Somerset finds. Should he not remain to there and keep that from the Duke of York...any help from this Earl of Warwick?”
Margaret wanted to lash out again but kept her mind and looked to Wiltshire with clarity, “You will find the funds, my Lord. And you will convince the King to call a Parliament for these reasons. They will pay before they are called. They do not wish to go against my husband. We will find the coin...and then we will do!”
“As long as they control the seas...” the Bishop of Winchester attempted to say but she cut him off.
“They will not! Exeter is named Admiral! Let him fund his fleet and hold Warwick as prisoner!”
The Lord Chancellor answered, “He begs at the cost, my Lady.”
“Mon Dieu!!!” Margaret shouted, “Do none of you wish to protect your own?!”
Wiltshire smiled, “I am sure that it may be arranged, Your Grace. The Duke of Exeter holds goodly coin.”
Bishop Booth read the room and followed, “Quite so, Your Grace. Rid the Channel of Warwick and as it is so close to Calais, keep him there. You shall answer York in good time.”
“Then make it so!” Margaret stormed from the chamber leaving the men to look to one another with question.
The Bishop of Winchester began to gather his papers, “I shall have to speak with His Grace and the other members of Council.”
“Do you?” Bishop Booth questioned, “His Grace will be to prayer and these others? Oxford will question. And as we both know, so too will Bourchier. These Lords all will feel a need to...add their mind. We know which we serve.”
The Lord Chancellor gave nod, “His Grace the King.”
“Indeed so,” the Earl of Wiltshire agreed, “All to his benefit...which is her. None other, my Lord.”
Bishop Waynflete of Winchester ran his hand nervously over his papers and answered, “Yes...indeed, yes. What is good for the Queen is good for His Grace. I shall do for their part.”
Bishop Booth called out as he left the chamber, “My Lord Chancellor...do it for the realm.”
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It looks like Margaret’s supporters are quarrelsome and disunited.
At least this separates Somerset and Margaret, which should put a pause on their affair. Was that the point? If Margaret isn’t sleeping with Somerset, then she might sleep with a different noble, and that noble would gain influence… Of course, Somerset would likely defect and reveal the kid’s true parentage if he found out, but they could hide it for a while, I‘m sure…
At least this separates Somerset and Margaret, which should put a pause on their affair. Was that the point? If Margaret isn’t sleeping with Somerset, then she might sleep with a different noble, and that noble would gain influence… Of course, Somerset would likely defect and reveal the kid’s true parentage if he found out, but they could hide it for a while, I‘m sure…
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The Crown side are starting to suffer from an awareness of the Sunk cost fallacy.
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None, but the people. Those that the history has been forcibly written upon.
Pure lol. Judging by the matches the aristocracy had done, has done, been doing, will be doing, yeah, all can be considered pure. Pure meat-sacks of clinical level vile idiocy. Powered by pure rubbish genetics.
Oh yeah, please no spoilers, much appreciated - <enter this is the way meme>
And it will be waited, there is no turning back. Write, write more, and all will be read.
Bonus
Meine Damen und Herren
As seen in the above example, coz could not resist the charm of Font Size 9, finally comes to terms with it, after the relentless insistence of filcat.
A fine day, a red day, a brave day it is.
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Fb-fb:
This is how the Council goes and I especially wanted each one to show their own thoughts of advancement. That they go to the Queen rather than Henry...even Booth tries to convince...let's not go to the full Council. These people failed Henry.
If you follow Margaret, you will follow her goal which is rather single minded. And she's not thinking about the costs.
I would not say doubt, but uncertainty as to where he should be. She needs him.
While I get people's history, I look more to great man history. Zinn and the like ain't my bag. And while all are not pure, they did influence the whole thing good and bad. Which is really all I want to get to with these characters. It's not a pretty picture and I hope that I have never suggested other. But it is A picture, and in that I hope it rings true.
All for you, my friend.
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Indeed, but the lady is not of the forgiving kind if she feels betrayed.
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What a time to fall behind and then catch up. The shape of the conflict becomes more clear to everyone.
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My situation and sentiments exactly. What a mess this sceptered isle has become.
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More fb-fb:
The next scene follows and carries on with more of Exeter's doings...
That much is true.
Everyone but King Henry, it might seem. Good to see you've caught up.
You as well. And yes, it is rather a mess.
The next scene follows and carries on with more of Exeter's doings...
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The Channel, June 1460
Henry Holland stood at the bow of his ship and watched over the horizon. For two days his small fleet had been anchored off the coast of Cornwall waiting for his prey, the Earl of Warwick. Rumors and spies had suggested that the Earl was returning from his visit to Ireland but so far, he had seen nothing. The Duke of Exeter assumed he would hold more ships as he had fifteen under his command and surely Warwick would not have tried to sail with so many. Yet he also held fifteen hundred men under his command and nearly to a man, it appeared that they did not see the worth of this particular adventure.
Most certainly that of his Captain John Pampelon who stepped up and looked over the Duke’s shoulder, “Caught any more fish, m’Lord?”
Exeter did not turn, “There is but one fish to catch, sir. None other.”
“Mayhap you should use better bait then,” the old Captain laughed.
“Tis no laughing matter,” the Duke turned to him, “I hold it on good authority that the Earl of Warwick is returning to Calais at the now and if we should catch him, this entire affair may be over.”
The Captain laughed again, “Who wishes it over, sir? Not I, to be certain. Thems that pay keep me employed and if you’ve got the coin...well...when you’ve got the coin, I’m happy to oblige.”
“You hold a rather jaded view,” Holland turned back to the sea.
“Hm!” the Captain picked at his teeth with a slim bit of wood as he too looked out, “Trouble is...the coin ain’t always there. Tends to be a problem for the boys, that. They don’t much care for the short rations and your wages are a might low.”
“It was what I could afford,” the Duke narrowed his brow at the accusation.
“You?” Captain Pampelon scoffed, “Such a high and mighty Lord? Got ties to both the Queen and York at that. You tellin’ me you don’t got two coins to scratch together?”
Exeter tried to ignore him, “My finances are none of your concern, sir.”
“Not for me, m’Lord,” the Captain replied, “I’m paid in full for these adventures. Yet them fellas? I’ve heard grumbling, m’Lord. Never good aboard ship. They’ve got a good idea what we do here and I’m not sure their heart’s in it. And if it happens here, I can tell you it’s on every one of these ships.”
The Duke turned to him, “Do they not support their King?!”
With a smile, the Captain answered, “They support what brings coin to their purse. I know I do.”
“You said that you desire the coin and as you have it, you will serve,” Exeter expressed with frustration.
“As I said, I will...for now,” the Captain frowned, “Them there, they may not. There’s your worry.”
“My worry...” the Duke started to say but then saw something to the distance.
Pampelon found his grin once more as he pointed, “...is right there, m’Lord.”
Indeed, as they both watched they could see the sails over the horizon. Not many ships but they kept clear attempting to follow the current without coming too close to shore. The Duke of Exeter became excited and hollered, “Pull up the anchor and harass!”
“Are you certain?” the Captain questioned.
“Damn you, man!” Exeter pressed him, “Do as said!”
“It’s as you’re tellin’ me, sir,” Pampelon shrugged and moved to bark his orders, “Pull anchor and send up the signal!!”
Exeter did not seem to notice at first until the Captain poked him to the shoulder, “You might wish to see this.”
“What is it?!” Henry Holland turned with exasperation until he too saw it.
No one on board was following their instruction. They stood there like statues and peered with hard eyes. The Duke was incensed, “You would disobey?! I shall see you all hanged...”
“You...might...wish a different tone, m’Lord,” the Captain suggested as one of the tougher sorts on board stepped up behind him.
The Duke turned and watched Warwick’s ships float on by and then pleaded, “He will escape!!”
“Might be he should,” the deck hand answered in a gruff voice.
The Captain gave nod, “As mentioned, sir...they ain’t about it.”
With slim memories of what happened to the Duke of Suffolk, Exeter softened and turned back to watch his prey. It was so much irritation that here was Warwick and yet he could not reach him. If he looked closely, he imagined the Earl looking back in a spyglass. Damn the man! Damn these men!!
“I think it best we put in to port, m’Lord,” the Captain suggested, “Unless...”
The Duke of Exeter pressed firmly to the rail and finally answered with slight words, “I will never hear the end of this.”
“You’ll not hear much if...” Pampelon attempted to counsel.
Exeter sighed as wished to reach out and gain what he desired. Instead he turned, “Do it. Take to port.”
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To catchup on the council scene it is a testament to the seriousness with which oaths and royal anointing was taken that anyone remains loyal to the King at this point. Margaret is actively trying to make being a supporter of her cause as miserable as possible, it's almost as if she is a Yorkist agent trying to drive people away.
The Parliament promises to be fun, certainly I doubt it will yield anywhere near the amount of coin that the Queen wants or even needs. On which note.
If there is one lessons from all of naval warfare it is that it cannot be done on the cheap. Armies at least can be motivated with plunder and sacking towns, sailors know that prizes are the exception not the rule and so do need paying. As Exeter is now learning attempting to do naval warfare on the cheap will just leave you in a worse position than if you hadn't bothered, he clearly has spent a lot of coin on that fleet but it's all just been wasted.
The Parliament promises to be fun, certainly I doubt it will yield anywhere near the amount of coin that the Queen wants or even needs. On which note.
This time. I'm sure he will have many more chances to fall in, doubtless with equally "loyal" crews behind him.
If there is one lessons from all of naval warfare it is that it cannot be done on the cheap. Armies at least can be motivated with plunder and sacking towns, sailors know that prizes are the exception not the rule and so do need paying. As Exeter is now learning attempting to do naval warfare on the cheap will just leave you in a worse position than if you hadn't bothered, he clearly has spent a lot of coin on that fleet but it's all just been wasted.
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Does Warwick outnumber Exeter too much here!m? Why isn’t Exeter attacking?
This is why relying on people loyal to money above all else is a bad idea. If he’s smart and can afford it, Warwick should just bribe the fleet into serving him…
This is why relying on people loyal to money above all else is a bad idea. If he’s smart and can afford it, Warwick should just bribe the fleet into serving him…
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I don’t think you understand what happened here - this was a rented fleet and a hired crew, with apparently more money spent on the ships than the sailors, assembled for the sole purpose of intercepting Warwick. And almost all the sums, it seems, came out of Exeter’s pocket. With a fraction of the cost Exeter paid for this whole mess, someone in the Yorkist camp bribed enough sailors to mutiny that all the investment is lost, and the crown apparently is stretched too thin financially to reimburse.
Exeter just got thoroughly caponed. It matters not the seniority of his title or what camp he’s in, he’s been fairly well removed from the chessboard.
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Fb-fb:
See more below.
To all - So another word on the Duke of Exeter. It is around this point in the story where his historical journey changes from what really happened and what I wanted to happen. Despite these setbacks for him, IRL he remained a staunch Lancastrian and fought in many of the battles that historically occurred. Since things have already started to diverge, I thought a more interesting journey in order for him. Part the reason that the last three scenes are either him or about him in some way. I wanted to set up what comes next. Something to look forward to, I suppose.
Look to probably tomorrow for the next scene as we've hit the midpoint of the chapter and the next update really follows directly on from the one above. I think it will flow better if read close together. And thanks so much for reading and giving comment. I should also include a plug for the ongoing ACAs (I believe two weeks left to vote...which reminds me that I need to do so myself.) As I always say, you need not vote for this work (though it always appreciated) but please do offer your nod to those AARs and writAARs that you enjoy. They will no doubt appreciate it!
So we can assume that he's not a complete idiot.
Very well said in regards naval warfare. I admit it is not my strong suit but this was just enough to show what happened. I'll admit that I may have taken a few liberties, but the facts remain that his fleet mutinied on him and he was forced to sack them all. More on that below.
He outnumbered him but it's hard to attack when your army/navy refuses which happened here.
Quite so. Again, I may have added a few flourishes from what is known but the sequence of events were roughly - Exeter is renamed Admiral of the Fleet, he embarrasses all when he tries to take charge of the Venetian Fleet on the Thames and then takes this one out to try and intercept Warwick on his return from Ireland but they refuse and he is forced to fire them all. All of that happened IRL.
See more below.
This is not CK so there are no traits, especially as the Queen is not a character in the game. I could have hired her as an advisor (as I recall I believe through an event) but chose not to as it was not germane to the game or story. I suppose I could have but I did so much already to weaken England in the save game (lowered stability and gave Henry even worse stats than what was originally listed), I did not see need to pile on.
To all - So another word on the Duke of Exeter. It is around this point in the story where his historical journey changes from what really happened and what I wanted to happen. Despite these setbacks for him, IRL he remained a staunch Lancastrian and fought in many of the battles that historically occurred. Since things have already started to diverge, I thought a more interesting journey in order for him. Part the reason that the last three scenes are either him or about him in some way. I wanted to set up what comes next. Something to look forward to, I suppose.
Look to probably tomorrow for the next scene as we've hit the midpoint of the chapter and the next update really follows directly on from the one above. I think it will flow better if read close together. And thanks so much for reading and giving comment. I should also include a plug for the ongoing ACAs (I believe two weeks left to vote...which reminds me that I need to do so myself.) As I always say, you need not vote for this work (though it always appreciated) but please do offer your nod to those AARs and writAARs that you enjoy. They will no doubt appreciate it!
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Calais, June 1460
“The Channel is open, sirs!” Warwick announced with a smile as he bounded into the hall, “It is all for the taking!”
Edward Earl of March was quick to clasp his arm in greeting, “And how was father?”
“I believe him finally to be ready,” the elder Earl grinned and then met with his own father, “And you, sir...are you?”
Salisbury was not keen to smile and merely asked, “What was Dickon’s mood?”
“Prepared, father...as we should be,” Warwick replied, “Was nearly met with Exeter on the way to here and he limped away. As always. Our path is clear.”
The Lord of Fauconberg smiled over his brother’s shoulder, “We did hear of it. Your man is quite good. The Duke was forced to dock at Dartmouth and sacked his entire crew.”
“Of course he did,” Warwick remained pleased with himself as he looked to Edward, “Your brother in law is a simpleton. Have always thought so. And no one will fight for him.”
Edward allowed agreement, “More to that, I think no one will fight for the Queen. Not now. As you have been gone from us, word comes often from London and Kent. As I’m sure you no doubt discussed with father, we too have been instructing to sow dissent. It has worked. The mood to there is very poor and not in her favor.”
“I believe more importantly...” Salisbury suggested, “...it is likely that the King...Queen and Council...do not offer the funds to carry out their desire. They are afeared of which way we might come to them and know not what to do.”
Warwick held to his father’s shoulder, “Which is why we should be on the march and soon. We still hold our ships and the sailing should be smooth.”
“There remains the Lord of Somerset, nephew,” Fauconberg cautioned, “Would it not be more prudent to take this offered respite to remove him from the Pale?”
“I am not worried about him,” Warwick answered and then looked to Edward with question, “Are you?”
Edward replied quickly, “Harry is to be reckoned with, but this is a moment not to waste. If you land to the south and father to the north or Wales, this Queen will have no option. How swiftly is he ready to go?”
“He is...considering...all options...” Warwick began to say but his father stopped him.
“He is being careful. As we should.”
The Earl moved to pour a drink, “What is it with old men and caution?!”
“Careful, sir,” Lord Fauconberg admonished, “Both in tone and notion. I think we are all in agreement that if we are to do this then it must be done in all right ways.”
Warwick turned, “And I say again that London remains the key. While we waste away here fighting no thing with Somerset, the real battle is to there. And time is of the essence. We will lose any sympathy we might find with Burgundy the longer this lasts and they are ripe for the taking. It has been eight months since we were forced to flee and that is too long. We do not live to rule Calais or Ireland. It is England, sirs!”
“We do not live to rule in any ways, my son,” Salisbury followed, “Our goal is to remove her from him however it might be accomplished.”
Edward felt the tenor in the room and spoke up, “I believe it may be doubly accomplished at any rate. Leave a force to here of which I would be happy to lead. We would protect Calais while you and father land.”
“He did...not suggest that,” Warwick answered to his cousin, “The Lord of York wishes you with us to England.”
“What?” Edward showed shock, “While he decides when is right to see when he might deign set foot himself?”
Salisbury gathered the two to him, “Minds are wasted on the youth. So quick are you both to do some thing...anything. Make it the right thing, sirs! If Richard is cautious then I applaud him. Thanks be to God that he is. Too often have we rushed too quickly...”
“Enough, father,” Warwick pulled away, “It has been with too much caution that we find ourselves where we are at the now. Too much time spent when we should have always been pressing at every weak point. And this is one for the ages. We all know that the Queen is unloved and more each week would we hear that others agree. Is that not right, uncle?”
Lord Fauconberg allowed a nod, “My son says much the same as he sees it. As he is able to write, he suggests that Bourchier the Archbishop...Norfolk...even Stanley hope for our return.”
“And return we shall,” Salisbury spoke to his brother and then looked to the rest, “Yet when we are strong enough to do so. Richard...I want your brothers back. Ned...could you not once listen to your Lord father? If he speaks to caution, then so should we.”
Warwick was quick to stand between them and answered, “Very well, father. It is to be considered. Yet I must say that the Lord of York is as ready as anyone for this to be done. That is what I took from his words.”
“Then I say we fortify Calais and remove Somerset before any other step,” Salisbury replied, “What say you, brother?”
Fauconberg looked to them all, “I shall be honest. I can see good reason for both ventures. And understand the caution, I do. Yet if my bastard is correct, there may be no time like now if we wait. She is too pernicious and allowed time? Who knows what havoc she may create for us.”
“Three peas in a pod, it seems,” Salisbury sighed, “Very well. Do your planning, my son. In any ways I am tired. I shall leave you to it, then.”
As he stormed off, Fauconberg looked to Warwick, “Worry not, nephew. I’ll talk to him.”
As he too left the hall, Warwick turned to Edward, “You see the rightness in this, don’t you?”
“I do,” Edward replied, “Yet I do not understand why I am to be party to it. He’s already placed me to peril once. Is he so quick to liking me in battle? When did that change?”
“Quite the contrary,” Warwick suggested as he poured another drink and then handed it to Edward, “He wants you safe. And again, wishes you with me.”
Edward held the cup but did not drink, “I believe I know what he wishes.”
“Ned...this is important,” Warwick held a hand to his shoulder, “You are his heir. If anything should happen to him, he trusts you among all others to follow him in everything that he has fought for and is willing to die for.”
“Hm!” Edward snorted as he pulled away, “So willing that he allows us the vanguard as he waits so patiently to Ireland with Ed.”
Warwick took a step to him, “He wished you there. Asked for you. About you. He loves you, Ned.”
“Facts not in evidence,” Edward replied as he went to a window and looked out for a time. Without turning back, he finally responded again, “Does he now know what he truly desires?”
“I believe it so,” Warwick suggested quickly.
Edward remained pensive as he looked out, “Did he say as much?”
“He knows what is at stake,” Warwick answered.
“Does he?” the young Earl finally turned to look on his cousin, “My father is known as a hard man. A right fine soldier and up until recently, certainly one respected. Trouble there is...he fled when faced with the ultimate challenge.”
Warwick was certain in reply, “We held no other choice.”
“No...we did not,” Edward followed, “Yet he did. And has since his very start. I’m not so young anymore, cousin. I see what is before us and I know my lineage even if my father does not.”
“He certainly does!” Warwick was more forceful.
“Does he?” Edward questioned, “I may still be considered young at eight and ten, sir, but I have seen much. This entire question should have been sorted years ago and yet here we still are. And where is he...my father? To Ireland still wanting to play the loyal subject. If he shows caution, that is why. And it has failed him every single time.”
“I agree with you,” Warwick answered, “Yet he is the leader of this force.”
Edward showed a slim smile, “Then mayhap he should lead it. Rather than you. Rather than your father. Rather than all of these others he hopes to champion his cause. And it is our cause. I know it as well as you.”
“Then what do you ask, Ned?” Warwick questioned his younger cousin.
Edward pressed, “First principles, sir. What is desired?”
“We have agreed,” Warwick answered, “We wish not the Queen.”
The young Earl stepped forward, “Nor the King. Is that not right? We have agreed there as well.”
“I’ll not argue that point.”
“That is good,” Edward replied, “So let us be clear. I will go with you. Yet only if we are true to our goal and not some other. If it is to be some other, then we are wasting our time and deserving of being in exile.”
Warwick allowed a respectful eye but then questioned, “Are you certain that you may be able to leave...the other...behind?”
“Cousin, I know your intent so do not be coy with me,” Edward answered, “I will be honest with you and tell you that I love the Lord of Somerset with all of my heart. Yet he does not stand between that which we speak. He is a good friend. But he will never be King. And your intent has always been some thing other. If one wishes to make a King, then one must be willing to do all of the hard and difficult things. I’m not certain that my father has that to him. Do you?”
“Do you?” Warwick allowed another curious eye.
Edward stood tall, “I am not my father.”
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Edward certainly seems to be growing in ambitions. And up in the world generally, if he has anything to say about that
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