October... let hope that December comes and goes without too much ado...
- 1
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
The interesting thing is Richard is still alive and well, and going to be king first before Edward. Dare I day we might actually get some stability for a while? Well...medieval stability, where Lords still plot and there's a big war going on against Scotland, and then a smaller one in Wales and Ireland to stop anyone from doing what the Yorkists did, and then finally to France to swipe that crown once and for all...
- 1
Cecily tells it like it is.
However, she isn't even pretending to be a legitimate believer in the theological argument... At least she's honest?
We'll see what this parliament decides...
However, she isn't even pretending to be a legitimate believer in the theological argument... At least she's honest?
We'll see what this parliament decides...
- 1
As others have said this is a poor choice from James. If Margaret wins then he might get Berwick, but there is no guarantee Henry will honour the deal. Whereas should she lose, which looks the more likely, then he gets nothing, has lost a not insignificant force and has angered the new ruler. Certainly right now he gets nothing, why would anyone in Berwick honour a deal made by Margaret? Particularly when the Yorkists can get Henry to issue a proclamation that he has made no such deal and would utterly refuse such treason.
I do have to note a new low in the idiocy of Margaret claiming to be the future of England while giving away chunks of it. That is her tragedy though, she arrogantly refused to make any effort to understand England, so she makes mistakes which cause people to dislike her, so she is even more determined not to learn anything about England.
As for Richard, he continues to frustrate due to his inability to be consistent. If he is just going for Regent/Lord Protector/Whatever then the grand train and trappings are just going to cause suspicion and annoy everyone, feed the rumour that he actually wants to be King (not helped by the fact that everyone else around him is clearly aiming for that). Go in quietly and humbly, Cincinnatus called back from the plough in the hour of need and all that, even if he intends to stay forever and be the heir at least pretend it is a higher purpose motivating this, as arguably there is because Henry is incapable and the Queen is a traitor.
That or just go in full pomp with the open intent to become King. Either way, pick something and follow it through. It's the indecision and mixed messages that are the problem.
I do have to note a new low in the idiocy of Margaret claiming to be the future of England while giving away chunks of it. That is her tragedy though, she arrogantly refused to make any effort to understand England, so she makes mistakes which cause people to dislike her, so she is even more determined not to learn anything about England.
As for Richard, he continues to frustrate due to his inability to be consistent. If he is just going for Regent/Lord Protector/Whatever then the grand train and trappings are just going to cause suspicion and annoy everyone, feed the rumour that he actually wants to be King (not helped by the fact that everyone else around him is clearly aiming for that). Go in quietly and humbly, Cincinnatus called back from the plough in the hour of need and all that, even if he intends to stay forever and be the heir at least pretend it is a higher purpose motivating this, as arguably there is because Henry is incapable and the Queen is a traitor.
That or just go in full pomp with the open intent to become King. Either way, pick something and follow it through. It's the indecision and mixed messages that are the problem.
Indeed Kurtie, I too am hoping for a quiet December.
- 2
While I am 95% confident that the world would be better off without the French tart (maybe top-line lady in a Parisian salon (brothel) or as arm-candy to a rich Italian merchant or banker), I am 100% sure life would better without the breed sow and several of her piglets (little Dicky vanish, please). I am yet to see a half-way decent reason for the marriage between the French hottie and the pious asexual king (the cease-fire did not last as long as it would take to get the troops back to England, either in this vision or in our OTL. I wish the Duchess would quit trying to create a silk purse out of her ear.
I would suggest to pack Maggie to marry Henry IV of Castile once she becomes a widower...
- 1
Fb-fb:
To all - and here we go...
Who knows what may happen between now and then?
You assume the order if and when, but it may not go down that way. None of it may.
Cecily at least knows what she wants.
It just goes to show that Margaret causes trouble no matter who she touches because she is so unwilling to learn.
You may...or may not...like what happens next as far as this is concerned.
And yet Cecily believes her ears so precious and wonderful. She "creates" nothing.
Enrique is already married to his cousin by this point.
To all - and here we go...
- 1
Westminster, October 1460
It was a crisp day as the train of soldiers entered the city of London. Though cold, the mood was jubilant. People cheered as the Duke of York processed through the streets to the sounds of trumpets hired at Abingdon and the sheer amount of men marching through the crowds. It was a spectacle and Richard of York had made certain of that.
He arrived as a victor and no coin was spared to show it. He also arrived as befits a King, with banners of all types flying and his sword of state borne upright before him. Even his own standard displayed the royal arms of England undifferenced. The sovereign’s arms. With his head held high, Duke Richard trotted slowly through the streets stopping only long enough to say a prayer at St. Paul’s Cross. Then he and hundreds of men on horseback moved west along the river to the Palace of Westminster where Parliament was just now in session.
Richard entered the palace still mounted with a knight before him holding up his sword. Storming through the great hall, everyone stepped back at the spectacle. The sound echoed off the high beamed ceiling as he moved with speed towards the Painted Chamber where the parliamentary Lords were assembled. Bursting through the door, the Duke of York sat high above them and snorted along with his destrier.
Not a word was spoken by those that witnessed and Richard took his time dismounting. His men were quick to hold a canopy of state over his head and then he started for the other end of the hall. There sat the empty throne of the King of England. He strode through them all to the dais and then turned. Richard offered a flourished bow to all Lords gathered and then turned once more to hold his hand above the arm of the chair. With only one more beat, he then lowered his hand and held to it firmly. There could be no mistake. All knew that he was symbolically laying claim to the crown.
If the Duke of York expected cheering and acclaim as he turned back to the gathered Lords, he was rudely awakened. Instead there was stunned silence as all men watched in wonderment and some confusion. There were certainly some present that expected it, not least the Earls of Warwick and March. Yet others that had thus far supported York such as the Lord of Salisbury and even his brother in law Viscount Bourchier, especially as he had just been named Treasurer, did not rush to join his side nor shout in his favor.
Richard was nonplussed yet this did not stop him. He stepped forward and spoke to them all, “After long unrighteous and heavy abuses, I have finally returned to claim that which is mine and has been unjustly stolen from me by attainder and worse. I have purpose not to lay down my sword but rather to challenge my right. Thus I do and claim this realm of England by right as heir to King Richard II, his name to be claimed as martyr. For three score years, this realm has been held by usurpers and today it shall be made right. I propose without delay to be crowned on All Hallows Day following.”
Once more if he expected exclamations of any kind, he got none. Only the tepid figure of the Archbishop of Canterbury Bourchier who slowly stepped forward and cautiously inquired, “Would it not be better to obtain an audience with the King, my Lord? Thereby you may discuss your...claim?”
Richard peered at him closely as he replied, “I know of no one in the realm who would not more fitly come to me than I to him.”
Finally there was a slight rumbling of the Lords gathered and Richard looked up to them all, “No man should have denied this crown to this head and all here know it. All of our misfortune and all of our losses are due to this foul stench that rests throughout the realm and there is but one way to cleanse it.”
To most Lords present, the feeling was profound dismay. How could they be expected to uphold his claim as they had already taken an oath of allegiance to Henry VI? Some few could surely see the benefit of it having indeed suffered for these last many years of great abuses of power by Henry’s counselors. Yet they too were unsure of exactly how to go forward with the sheer awful reality of deposing a King
It had been done before, to be sure. York himself spoke to one such example. Yet often it had been a case of tyranny against the nobles, and some magnates had by and large prospered under Henry’s already long rule. No one could doubt the desire for a more forceful foreign policy, especially against France. And were this announcement made to the House, merchants might have howled in favor because of tariffs put down by Margaret and her court party, yet they were not these men. These men were members of the Order of the Garter. They were proud and powerful, each with interests in many pots, and few were willing to entirely upend their apple cart.
Furious, Richard stepped down from the dais and stormed back through those assembled, his knights keeping in quick step and his spurs clanging heavily against the stone floor of the chamber. As he exited, those that remained could only look at one another in disbelief. Edward was quick to make a ready exit himself and swiftly caught up with his father.
“Well...you’ve done it now.”
Richard did not slow as he quickly made his way through the halls of Westminster, “What have you been doing all of this time? I did tell you how important it was that our arrival be welcomed.”
“It is to the city of London, sir,” Edward kept up, “So too in the southeast, mind. Yet the Lords are a frustrating lot, father. You know this.”
“I should have expected as much,” the Duke rounded a corner, “Not even Salisbury to my side. And where was your cousin?!”
Edward gave nod, “He was there, father. He saw. Yet he will be silent for now though he does agree.”
“Silence!” York raged, “It’s always bloody silence! Norfolk! Stanley! The whole bloody lot of them!”
The Earl stopped his father and held to his arm, “Sir! You have the true right of it and all will follow in good time. Yet you must give them reason to! Behaving like a petulant toddler denied their favorite toy is not kingly!”
“How dare you?” Richard looked to his son with bemusement, “Since when did you become the adult and I the child?”
“You are my Lord father,” Edward calmly replied, “Please act like it.”
Slowing his breath, the Duke of York collected himself. He looked to Edward for a good long time before finally placing a strong hand to his son’s shoulder, “Go and seek out Edmund, sir. He has been missing of you.”
“And what will you do, father?” Edward asked.
Richard of York did not smile as he turned and answered over his shoulder, “I will do as begged by the Archbishop. I will speak with my cousin!”
End of Chapter 19
Last edited:
- 3
- 1
The die is cast.
Entirely realistic for the Lords to be stunned, even if a lot of them would in time actually agree with him. Henry's claim is really only as good as his. The difference is they've all already sworn fealty to the latter...including him. So Henry has to go first. One way or another.
Entirely realistic for the Lords to be stunned, even if a lot of them would in time actually agree with him. Henry's claim is really only as good as his. The difference is they've all already sworn fealty to the latter...including him. So Henry has to go first. One way or another.
- 1
That was a long time coming. Let's see if it costs York support.
Henry's reaction should be... interesting. I can't imagine that he'll be happy with York's new policy, even if it does let him focus on the church.
Henry's reaction should be... interesting. I can't imagine that he'll be happy with York's new policy, even if it does let him focus on the church.
- 2
Fb-fb:
And it goes back to what has been suggested several times here. Wanting a strong sovereign (and knowing that Henry is not) is different than actively trying to depose one. It has not happened in England since 1399, so memories of that are not fresh in 1460. And as you mention, it may have been more effective for Henry Bolingbroke to depose Richard II since he was dead (although he was murdered 5 months after Henry IV was crowned.)
And indeed it was a long time coming. Two and a half years and just under 800 pages of the written word as lead up to be exact.
I'm pleased that it reads as realistic as that is exactly what happened. I struggled how to portray it as we've seen some or even many suggest they backed Richard (or at least Edward and Warwick) but remained silent when the time came. It's the moment when all pretense is pulled away and the truth is out there. We've all known or suspected this was Richard's motive (the reasons why can be varied) but even those in the chamber that suspected were still rather shocked.
And it goes back to what has been suggested several times here. Wanting a strong sovereign (and knowing that Henry is not) is different than actively trying to depose one. It has not happened in England since 1399, so memories of that are not fresh in 1460. And as you mention, it may have been more effective for Henry Bolingbroke to depose Richard II since he was dead (although he was murdered 5 months after Henry IV was crowned.)
Slight spoiler - when chapter 20 begins, we will pick up right where we left off so you'll find out soon enough.
And indeed it was a long time coming. Two and a half years and just under 800 pages of the written word as lead up to be exact.
- 1
- 1
Why did the Tart not execute the Breed Sow and her piglets when she had them as hostages and Chicken Little returned from Ireland? Less Plantagenet/York male piglets would be a very good thing as they would not kill each other trying to feed from the stolen trough.
Cecily and the children were under the protection of Buckingham and thus the King, and Richard did not return from Ireland until after she was on the run. So there is that.
- 1
Chapter 20: An Act of Accord
* * *
Westminster, October 1460
* * *
Westminster, October 1460
Pounding down the halls of Westminster, Richard of York finally made his way to the Queen’s apartments where he was assured the King resided. Guards posted outside the chamber door tried to stop the Duke, but he thrust them aside and burst into the room. There he found Henry sitting calmly at a table, his hands folded before him and an icy stare.
Richard remained angry but the sight of the King instantly changed him. Fighting back the urge to bow before his sovereign, the Duke of York instead slowly closed the chamber door and shut out the continuing shouts from beyond. Taking the few steps to the table, he sat and allowed a sigh. When still Henry did not speak, Richard began, “I must first say how terrible it was to hear of the passing of Lord Humphrey. He was a right good man and did not deserve his fate.”
The King’s eyes were open wide but he did not utter a word in response. Richard continued, “There has been too much of this these long years, sir. You know it as well as I. Yet due to the love that I hold for you, dear cousin...I have attempted so many times to find an accord. However, at each step...you and I...have been disappointed.”
“Do you...” Henry finally answered slowly and softly, “...consider the death of Buckingham...a disappointment? I should think it very much your intent.”
“I knew him well,” the Duke replied defensively, “I should respect him as he died in service to the realm, no matter how misguided.”
The King finally narrowed his eyes in question, “You believe it misguided for a Lord to defend and protect his sovereign?”
“I believe it misguided to throw on blinders like a plow horse...yes,” Richard was plain, “None with eyes to see could mistake our plight for anything other than mismanagement and outright plunder.”
When Henry did not reply, the Duke continued, “There is reason that you are here to these apartments rather than sitting before Parliament, cousin. I know you and you wish not to see such charlatans practice in your name. And yet, you allow it nonetheless.”
“Mayhap...” Henry again spoke softly, “...I am missing of my wife the Queen.”
Richard stood to look out the window of the chamber before giving answer, “She will not be returning to your side, pray God.”
“You would deny me of both my crown and of my marital bliss?” Henry questioned.
The Duke did not turn, “If that be bliss, I dare not ask what is worse.”
Though younger, Henry remained taller than the Duke and it showed when the King stood and shifted behind Richard to question, “How do you presume to know the peace within my mind?”
“Because I have known you since you were a small child,” Richard turned and looked up to the King, “Have seen you fancy all manner of things when the important was right before you...left untouched.”
“That I pray?” Henry asked, “Does that make of me a poor King?”
“Nay, cousin...” Richard offered a firm brow, “...yet would that you were a true King, that I do pray.”
Henry shifted once more to the table and held to the back of his chair, “It was not my choice to be born of this. Yet born I was to a regal father. I have been born into two realms and not just the one.”
“And you lost one crown already, sir,” Richard answered quickly.
“Let me tell you something,” Henry spun on him, “If I remember anything about France, it is nothing. It would never have been my desire to see my father die so young and with his life’s work unfinished.”
Richard allowed a wry grin, “And what was that work but to claim that which was his by right?”
“As you say it, sir...he held no claim at all,” Henry sat and folded his hands again, “For how could he if he was the illegitimate King of England? Would it not also follow that he held no right to France?”
“I shall not banter on legal niceties,” Richard began to grow impatient, “For the truth is quite clear. As I have ever told to you, I would honor your place. If only you would hold it. Yet you do not. Raised are the likes of Cardinal Beaufort, the Duke of Suffolk and the Duke of Somerset. Bastards and brigands all. They would do the ruin of this realm when I am left to line the side and take what crumbs they may wish.”
“Cousin of York...” Henry allowed a slight grin, “...are you not the wealthiest man in this realm? Even more so than myself?”
Richard was certain, “Because these men have plundered and squandered your largess.”
“You do not answer the question.”
The Duke was irritated, “How may I be wealthy when all has been stolen from me and signed in effect by you?”
“And what would you do?” the King questioned plainly, “Were you King and some Lord brought arms against you? Would you fight or back down and allow them to trample over that which God Himself has ordained?”
Richard was adamant, “I will no longer answer for the use of force to gain what is right. The arms were never meant for you but only those terrors which surrounded you.”
“And one by one...they are gone,” Henry sat taller, “The Cardinal died in his bed likely closer to Hell than to Heaven. Suffolk murdered in a most cruel way. The Lord Somerset...our cousin...struck down in battle in defense of mine own right. And now the Lord of Buckingham, sir. Another wealthy magnate. Perchance it is that? Did you desire his paternity as well as your own?”
“If you like to call me greedy, you would be wrong, sir,” Richard answered, “I hold one wish and that is the safety and security of this realm and that is only done by the crown.”
Henry allowed another slight smile, “You cannot do what you wish, for you respect it too much.”
“Respect it I do,” the Duke replied, “Which is why it should have never found your head.”
“I might easily let it go, yet why should you want it so much?” the King questioned.
With a sigh, Richard answered, “It is not that I crave it, sir. I may have no more longing for it than you. Yet someone must rule. When there is a void, one must fill it. And there be no other more qualified nor rightful than myself.”
The King allowed a nod and shifted to some books. He pulled a heavy one from a shelf and sat it to the table. Heaving open the massive tome, he flipped through a few pages of illuminated text and found a figure, “If it is all to be done right...should we go back and offer this crown to whatever descendant is left of Edgar the Æthling? To that end...why not the Danes? To what lengths shall we go so that all things are right and true and there be no question? Was our forbear Henry II illegitimate because he took the crown from King Stephen?”
“Of course he was not!” Richard scoffed, “It was his by right through his mother and grandfather.”
Henry flipped another few pages, “And yet Stephen of England was grandson to the Conqueror through his mother. See here.”
“These are all very colorful,” the Duke grew tired of this, “The truth is that you wear the crown due to the convenience of your grandfather Henry of Bolingbroke. There be no doubt that he was the true son of John of Gaunt, yet mine own grandfather was Edmund of Langley, the true son of King Edward III.”
The King smiled, “As was John of Gaunt. If we are looking at order...was he not older than the Prince Edmund?”
“We may play at this all day, sir...” Richard pressed, “...I also hold descent from King Edward’s second son Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence. No matter which way you go, my line was favored by King Richard II until he was deposed.”
Henry looked up with a curious eye, “And you would propose to make that right at this date?”
“I would!” the Duke of York was certain.
“Then go with God, my cousin,” Henry answered him and closed the book with a thud, “If you may. For I do know my right and it derives from my father the King. No man questioned it at my birth and so I see no reason to question it now. I would stand by my right to occupy this throne.”
Richard sighed and looked to him with sadness, “Would that all of your studies made you a better King.”
The King sat and placed a hand to the book, “You will find it difficult...cousin...to change men’s minds. For all of my worth, or lack thereof...I have been unable.”
- 3
- 2
Chapter 20: An Act of Accord
* * *
Westminster, October 1460
Pounding down the halls of Westminster, Richard of York finally made his way to the Queen’s apartments where he was assured the King resided. Guards posted outside the chamber door tried to stop the Duke, but he thrust them aside and burst into the room. There he found Henry sitting calmly at a table, his hands folded before him and an icy stare.
Richard remained angry but the sight of the King instantly changed him. Fighting back the urge to bow before his sovereign, the Duke of York instead slowly closed the chamber door and shut out the continuing shouts from beyond. Taking the few steps to the table, he sat and allowed a sigh. When still Henry did not speak, Richard began, “I must first say how terrible it was to hear of the passing of Lord Humphrey. He was a right good man and did not deserve his fate.”
The King’s eyes were open wide but he did not utter a word in response. Richard continued, “There has been too much of this these long years, sir. You know it as well as I. Yet due to the love that I hold for you, dear cousin...I have attempted so many times to find an accord. However, at each step...you and I...have been disappointed.”
“Do you...” Henry finally answered slowly and softly, “...consider the death of Buckingham...a disappointment? I should think it very much your intent.”
“I knew him well,” the Duke replied defensively, “I should respect him as he died in service to the realm, no matter how misguided.”
The King finally narrowed his eyes in question, “You believe it misguided for a Lord to defend and protect his sovereign?”
“I believe it misguided to throw on blinders like a plow horse...yes,” Richard was plain, “None with eyes to see could mistake our plight for anything other than mismanagement and outright plunder.”
When Henry did not reply, the Duke continued, “There is reason that you are here to these apartments rather than sitting before Parliament, cousin. I know you and you wish not to see such charlatans practice in your name. And yet, you allow it nonetheless.”
“Mayhap...” Henry again spoke softly, “...I am missing of my wife the Queen.”
Richard stood to look out the window of the chamber before giving answer, “She will not be returning to your side, pray God.”
“You would deny me of both my crown and of my marital bliss?” Henry questioned.
The Duke did not turn, “If that be bliss, I dare not ask what is worse.”
Though younger, Henry remained taller than the Duke and it showed when the King stood and shifted behind Richard to question, “How do you presume to know the peace within my mind?”
“Because I have known you since you were a small child,” Richard turned and looked up to the King, “Have seen you fancy all manner of things when the important was right before you...left untouched.”
“That I pray?” Henry asked, “Does that make of me a poor King?”
“Nay, cousin...” Richard offered a firm brow, “...yet would that you were a true King, that I do pray.”
Henry shifted once more to the table and held to the back of his chair, “It was not my choice to be born of this. Yet born I was to a regal father. I have been born into two realms and not just the one.”
“And you lost one crown already, sir,” Richard answered quickly.
“Let me tell you something,” Henry spun on him, “If I remember anything about France, it is nothing. It would never have been my desire to see my father die so young and with his life’s work unfinished.”
Richard allowed a wry grin, “And what was that work but to claim that which was his by right?”
“As you say it, sir...he held no claim at all,” Henry sat and folded his hands again, “For how could he if he was the illegitimate King of England? Would it not also follow that he held no right to France?”
“I shall not banter on legal niceties,” Richard began to grow impatient, “For the truth is quite clear. As I have ever told to you, I would honor your place. If only you would hold it. Yet you do not. Raised are the likes of Cardinal Beaufort, the Duke of Suffolk and the Duke of Somerset. Bastards and brigands all. They would do the ruin of this realm when I am left to line the side and take what crumbs they may wish.”
“Cousin of York...” Henry allowed a slight grin, “...are you not the wealthiest man in this realm? Even more so than myself?”
Richard was certain, “Because these men have plundered and squandered your largess.”
“You do not answer the question.”
The Duke was irritated, “How may I be wealthy when all has been stolen from me and signed in effect by you?”
“And what would you do?” the King questioned plainly, “Were you King and some Lord brought arms against you? Would you fight or back down and allow them to trample over that which God Himself has ordained?”
Richard was adamant, “I will no longer answer for the use of force to gain what is right. The arms were never meant for you but only those terrors which surrounded you.”
“And one by one...they are gone,” Henry sat taller, “The Cardinal died in his bed likely closer to Hell than to Heaven. Suffolk murdered in a most cruel way. The Lord Somerset...our cousin...struck down in battle in defense of mine own right. And now the Lord of Buckingham, sir. Another wealthy magnate. Perchance it is that? Did you desire his paternity as well as your own?”
“If you like to call me greedy, you would be wrong, sir,” Richard answered, “I hold one wish and that is the safety and security of this realm and that is only done by the crown.”
Henry allowed another slight smile, “You cannot do what you wish, for you respect it too much.”
“Respect it I do,” the Duke replied, “Which is why it should have never found your head.”
“I might easily let it go, yet why should you want it so much?” the King questioned.
With a sigh, Richard answered, “It is not that I crave it, sir. I may have no more longing for it than you. Yet someone must rule. When there is a void, one must fill it. And there be no other more qualified nor rightful than myself.”
The King allowed a nod and shifted to some books. He pulled a heavy one from a shelf and sat it to the table. Heaving open the massive tome, he flipped through a few pages of illuminated text and found a figure, “If it is all to be done right...should we go back and offer this crown to whatever descendant is left of Edgar the Æthling? To that end...why not the Danes? To what lengths shall we go so that all things are right and true and there be no question? Was our forbear Henry II illegitimate because he took the crown from King Stephen?”
“Of course he was not!” Richard scoffed, “It was his by right through his mother and grandfather.”
Henry flipped another few pages, “And yet Stephen of England was grandson to the Conqueror through his mother. See here.”
“These are all very colorful,” the Duke grew tired of this, “The truth is that you wear the crown due to the convenience of your grandfather Henry of Bolingbroke. There be no doubt that he was the true son of John of Gaunt, yet mine own grandfather was Edmund of Langley, the true son of King Edward III.”
The King smiled, “As was John of Gaunt. If we are looking at order...was he not older than the Prince Edmund?”
“We may play at this all day, sir...” Richard pressed, “...I also hold descent from King Edward’s second son Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence. No matter which way you go, my line was favored by King Richard II until he was deposed.”
Henry looked up with a curious eye, “And you would propose to make that right at this date?”
“I would!” the Duke of York was certain.
“Then go with God, my cousin,” Henry answered him and closed the book with a thud, “If you may. For I do know my right and it derives from my father the King. No man questioned it at my birth and so I see no reason to question it now. I would stand by my right to occupy this throne.”
Richard sighed and looked to him with sadness, “Would that all of your studies made you a better King.”
The King sat and placed a hand to the book, “You will find it difficult...cousin...to change men’s minds. For all of my worth, or lack thereof...I have been unable.”
It's fascinating watching two men, neither of whom want to be king of England, bicker over their basically equally compelling right to rule. I do understand it, not just theologically (god picked Henry...basically), but also practically. One usurped the other and killed a lot of the upper nobility...even if most of them were pretty awful people (and Somerset was cucking the King).
I fear this is going the OTL root of Henry off to the tower and catching his death, by whatever means. But there isn't anyone left really to fight the Lancaster banner for Henry himself, rather than their own claim...so provided the Yorkist side can keep it together, don't infight and offer some reconciliation to the nobility generally...they should get away with it.
The problem is that:
A) they are usurping the throne, even if they are usurping it back.
B) no one in England really knows rhe child of the queen isn't Henry's and thus the rightful heir actually IS Richard of York
C) there's still too many potent claimants to the throne
And
D) most of them are in the yorkist camp...which could lead to some infighting once the Crown is actually seized...unless some war and therefore lands in Scotland, France, Wales Ireland etc is up for grabs.
- 1
Oh oh! I did this the other day!
Ok so Edgar and his sister Cristina died childless (or Edgar may have had a child but no further issue from that line, records are unclear), so the claim of the House of Wessex passes then to their other sister Queen (and Saint) Margaret of Scotland and her descendants of the royal house of Dunkeld. Of course as with the Scottish crown, this claim becomes messy upon the death of Queen Margaret in 1283.
What we know from history is after a great and almighty mess even more farcical than Mel Gibson’s attempts, Robert the Bruce eventually became King of Scotland on the basis of tanistry and proximity of blood, which some could argue is fairly close to how the English Witan elected the sovereign among the eligible aelthings of the royal house. If we then treat him as St. Margaret’s heir to the English throne, then the claim passes all the way through the Scottish monarchy down to in this story, James II of Scotland, (or in OTL it’s eventual reunion with the English crown in James VI of Scotland/I of England, and thereafter depending on who you believe to King Charles III or Prince Maximillian of Bavaria).
Frankly though, the much better legal argument to the ancient claim of Alfred’s line, as the Guardians of Scotland and Edward I of England determined with the Scottish claim OTL, is by primogeniture to John Bailiol and after his line’s extinction (allegedly), those of his sisters. Most of his sisters married English minor nobles and things become a bit too messy for me to be able to effectively track - I am unable to tell which sister was senior to the other, let alone what offspring they produced. All that information is probably on some moth-eaten scrolls in a few castle basements somewhere. Interestingly, I am able to trace with some confidence the line of one of the sisters- that of Eleanor Bailiol. After going through the House of Comyn to its extinction (word of advice, don’t piss off everyone to the point where not one but two clans have their coats of arms commemorate killing you), it then goes to two sisters. The elder, Joan, passed everything on to the wonderfully named House of Strathbogie, which despite having been booted out of not merely their ancestral moramerdom of Atholl but indeed Scotland as a whole, is I believe still extant in the 1400’s. The younger sister Elizabeth is even more interesting though, because you see, she is the ancestor of the Talbots. Yes, those Talbots.
So really if Henry and Richard want to track down someone who could plausibly claim to be the rightful heir of Edgar Aelthing and finally undo the injustice of 1066 once and for all, they don’t have to look to far - Shrewsbury’s in town and I imagine he’d be very happy to take the crown, even if he isn’t nearly as worthy of it as his late father was.
- 2
- 1
Both monarchs have good points here. The crown really belongs to whoever can keep it, though - and that's Richard of York right now.
How will Margaret react to this news?
How will Margaret react to this news?
- 1
York is at least finally doing something, even better he hasn't changed his mind when it didn't go according to plan. I'm not sure it's wise and I doubt it ends well, because despite the baffling delay he still has put zero effort into preparing the ground (or worse he has tried, failed, but is still pushing on regardless).
I still find Henry baffling. He doesn't want to be King, he knows he is crap at it and he knows York's claim is at least comparable. Yet he sticks at it despite it only doing damage to himself and the realm. It can't be his oath, because he knows he is already breaking it by doing such an awful job of being King. If it was so important to him why doesn't it motivate him to rule? It's not even about ruling better, it's just making an effort to do so every day and not just in brief flashes between running off to prayer.
I still find Henry baffling. He doesn't want to be King, he knows he is crap at it and he knows York's claim is at least comparable. Yet he sticks at it despite it only doing damage to himself and the realm. It can't be his oath, because he knows he is already breaking it by doing such an awful job of being King. If it was so important to him why doesn't it motivate him to rule? It's not even about ruling better, it's just making an effort to do so every day and not just in brief flashes between running off to prayer.
- 1
York is fufled whatever he does. If he takes the crown, half of the kingdom would fight against him. If he allows Henry to remain as king, the whole kingdom would go to hell.
- 1
Fb-fb:
It is indeed fascinating. So much so that I spend most of this chapter on the subject. There will be many arguments and counter arguments made, and hopefully I capture them all.
This is excellent! I admit that when I did the research and wrote my Wessex saga, I did not spend much time on the sisters of Eadger. And surely, if you go back, you can possibly find some others that could claim ancestry of Alfred. But that is indeed fascinating that Lord Talbot's grandson (recall Shrewsbury was also killed at Northampton) might have a claim. There are just more and more and more of them.
I doubt she will react well to any of it. And indeed, possession is nine tenths and all that.
Of course, Henry is just being Henry. Soft when he should be strong. Strong when it is clear he holds little hand. Richard may not be the smartest man in the room (or at least, the most shrewd) but he knows his cousin probably better than anyone living at this time.
Perhaps if he had done this many, many years ago, this might not be the case. But...probably no. It was likely destined to happen as long as this Henry sat the throne.
- 1