The Wars of the Roses

[TheButterflyComposer]

A sensible plan for a happier Britain.

Just kill everyone and start over, with the Irish.

Yeah, I'm not sure insulting Henry V in England is a good idea

Pointing out the old war hero King didn't actually do all that much isn't the best idea, no.

Richard clearly has no idea how to actually carry out a coup, which is a bit of a problem because he's very clearly committed himself to it now.

 

[Rensslaer]

@coz1 I am on page 38 with Warwick the Pirate.... Moving forward quickly, and in a stern chase since you're moving at quite a clip yourself!

I'll get caught up one of these days, and then can comment on what's front of mind for you and all the other readers.

Excellent storytelling, as always!

Rensslaer

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

Fb-fb:

Ah, but a traitor to an usurper so is it really treason?

When you win, it's not treason, only becomes that if you loose.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

When you win, it's not treason, only becomes that if you loose.

Henry 7th backdated his reign to just before Bosworth, making EVERYONE who was on the royal side that day a traitor to the 'king'.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Who will rid me of this turbulent civil war by forcing a writ of abdication, locking the king in a monastery, killing anyone in Parliament who doesn't believe it, seizing all their land and treasure, raising an army to crush the South, replying to the Scottish invasion by the Rebel Queen by declaring her a traitor, a witch and a harlot who spawned rhe devil's child, blaming them for burning down the monastery with the old blessed sainted King inside it, slaughtering the Scottish army, putting the queen on a show trial in London, burning her at the stake, then annexing Scotland for their devil baby eating worship, and following that up by smashing down hard on Ireland and Wales, before finally returning to France and burning Paris to the ground before declaring the York line not only the rightful heirs of England but the entire British Isles, France etc etc...

*breathe*

That would be nice, wouldn't it.

A sensible plan for a happier Britain.

If its and buts were candy and nuts...

Yeah, I'm not sure insulting Henry V in England is a good idea. That would probably go over better in France, honestly.

Also, I was reading a bit about the WotR recently and discovered something... strange. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Edgcote. I should hope that Richard of York survives before his forces split even more than they already have.

We are quite aways from something like that happening here, but it is not unlikely.

Well put Edward. I note you have really shown him coming of age and stature of late, and iirc (it’s been a while since I’ve read into his reign) when he got his chance he proved a pretty good operator, while his health was sustained.

I'm pleased to see that coming across. I've tried to build it slowly but surely.

It is interesting that Richard has a point to make, but the doubts and equivocations of his erstwhile allies are based in large part on his previous mistakes, faults or half-measures and his failure to line them all up properly before this latest gambit. A modern politician would have had the numbers men laying the groundwork, an announcement with plenty of ‘nodding dogs’ standing behind for support, and a ‘more in sorrow than in anger’ speech that still firmly makes the necessary points. Ah well, maybe this generation of the Plantagenet line suffers from various manifestations of Chronic Indecisiveness Disorder!

As has been suggested before and likely will be said again, Richard just isn't very good at this whole coup thing. @Historywhiz suggests very well below and as I responded already, Richard has too much respect for the institution itself to blow it up even if he wants to. I also think he had many expectations and not many ideas how to get past the fact that others did not hold the same expectations. His breeding, lineage and perhaps even hubris causes a character flaw that is not shared by past and future tyrants that would just blow past all of these roadblocks. Would have kidnapped and murdered the King, executed the Queen and her bastard child, would have imprisoned every single person that stood against him. And yet? He cannot. It is not his nature at this moment. And this has led to far too many failures and mistakes as you suggest. Can he get past all of that? We shall find out.

I imagined some proud chin-jutting as well, probably hands on hips, or maybe one on a sword pommel.

Of course!

Very much enjoyed this latest series of episodes @coz1 there were some very good lines and closely contended debates in there. If it had all been easy, well, we would have had the WOTR!

Excellent! I really hit a stride while writing a lot of these scenes that are just now coming to you. Took a few months, but hey...better late than never.

I’ve just realized the problem. Richard has a chronic case of bureaucrat brain. The same mind that keeps everything running so smoothly (if not always happily) when in charge of a government body completely comes undone when everything is descending into anarchy and there’s little set policy and procedure to go off of. He’s literally doing a coup d’etat right now and can’t stop obsessing over the finer technicalities of the law because the idea that he is now outside the legal system is completely alien to him. He is exactly the sort of middle manager who runs a tight ship, rewards good behavior with a pizza party, is constantly angling for his boss’s job, and insists that regulations on gift giving at Christmas be followed to the letter thank you very much.

Amswered already, but again...an excellent point!

Just kill everyone and start over, with the Irish.



Pointing out the old war hero King didn't actually do all that much isn't the best idea, no.

Richard clearly has no idea how to actually carry out a coup, which is a bit of a problem because he's very clearly committed himself to it now.

Were it up to you, everything would be given to the Irish.

@coz1 I am on page 38 with Warwick the Pirate.... Moving forward quickly, and in a stern chase since you're moving at quite a clip yourself!

I'll get caught up one of these days, and then can comment on what's front of mind for you and all the other readers.

Excellent storytelling, as always!

Rensslaer

Awesome to hear! You're about halfway there.

When you win, it's not treason, only becomes that if you loose.

Henry 7th backdated his reign to just before Bosworth, making EVERYONE who was on the royal side that day a traitor to the 'king'.

So Richard had better win here or else. Then he can backdate all he wants.


To all - First of all, great comments above which I really appreciate. We are hitting some of the most ferocious writing I've done this past year in that I was writing a new scene every day and it just flowed forth. The damn broke after the early unfortunate part of the year after my birthday and this is the result. I'm really pleased that it is so well received. Thank you!!

I'd also like to put in a plug for the now ongoing ACAs begun once again by the great @Nikolai! Please head over there and give your voice to all of the great writAARs and AARs you enjoy and love. As I always say, you need not vote for this work (though I always appreciate it) but please do vote!

Of course, I've also begun the YAYAs for 2023, but I'll shill for that a lot more closer to the end of the year. However better to start thinking about it now, right?

 

[coz1]

Westminster, October 1460​

After the session in the House of Lords, a small number retired to speak with the King and ask Henry of his own wish. As the senior peer present outside of the Duke of York, it fell to the Duke of Norfolk John Mowbray to lead the deposition. He was joined by the Earls of Oxford and Westmorland as well as the King’s new Chancellor Bishop Neville and the Archbishop of Canterbury. They found him still to the Queen’s apartments and in low spirits. It was growing late in the day and he seemed tired.

Henry looked up with heavy eyelids as they knocked and gestured for them to enter fully, “What have you to say to us?”

“Your Grace, we have heard quite a few things this day,” the Earl of Oxford cautiously answered.

Henry sighed, “We are sure that you have. How did you find them?”

“Rather interesting,” Norfolk smirked.

The Archbishop showed embarrassment, “Forgive him, Your Grace. Yet tempers are high. The Lord of York does speak much and to some may appear quite convincing.”

“To some yet not to others,” the aged Earl of Westmorland suggested.

“As it is presented, sire,” Bishop Neville ignored him, “The Duke of York does place his claim as expected. Through his descent from both Lionel of Antwerp and Edmund of Langley, sons of Edward III.”

Henry skewed an eye towards his new Chancellor, “We do wonder, sir...did you not just within this past year swear fealty to both this crown and ourselves?”

“I serve you now, Your Grace,” the Bishop replied easily.

The Earl of Oxford showed distaste, “While you argue the Duke’s case, sir.”

“The Lord of York is given counsel,” Archbishop Bourchier suggested, “As is his right as Lord and man within common law. Yet we also represent His Grace throughout these proceedings.”

The Duke of Norfolk stood back and leaned to the wall of the chamber. He smiled as he stirred the pot, “Your Eminence, did you not travel fully with the Earls of March and Warwick as they made progress to Northampton?”

King Henry was suddenly keen to hear the answer and the Archbishop stammered, “We...I...it was to serve the wishes of Rome and the Holy Father that we find peace within this realm.”

Henry sighed, “Yes...where is this Papal legate at the now, we wonder?”

“Likely returned to Rome,” Norfolk smirked once more.

The Earl of Westmorland was uninterested in the papal cause and looked earnestly to the King, “Your Grace...in all of this, we must ask of you your own opinion as you are sovereign despite the claim made. What York suggests can clearly be called treason in any other time. In fact, it is called already before the Lords within the Painted Chamber by the Lord of Wiltshire.”

“Him?” Henry actually showed a slight laugh, “We are rather amazed that he arrives at all and in any rate.”

Norfolk smiled, “Yet he does, sire. Dares show his face and his usual subservience.”

“With friends like that...” Henry trailed off as he spoke to himself.

Oxford pressed forward, “It does remain, Your Grace. York calls for all laws to be honored and thus, he may rightly be called a traitor especially as his attainder remains in effect.”

“Get off of that, de Vere,” Norfolk suggested, “All know that these attainders will be reversed within this Parliament. It is already at progress in the Commons and we hold some few with us to the Lords to be sure. Did you argue that Salisbury or Warwick held no right to be there?”

“After the events to Northampton, my Lord...” Oxford shot back, “...it was hoped that a more peaceful resolution might be had.”

Bishop Neville followed, “As well, the Lord of York does cause a precious question which rather calls the entire thing into question.”

Westmorland frowned, “Rather convenient.”

“Indeed,” the Earl of Oxford turned back to King Henry, “Thus it is to you, Your Grace. Is it your desire to see this play out through the courts? For you must only say the word and...”

Henry held up a hand and looked to them all, “We are...in a perilous state. We know not where our wife and son are at the now, nor if they are safe or even still alive. We are at total darkness and God does not speak. We are struck deaf, dumb and blind with men about that lay claim to the very thing we hold dear...our realm. Thus, my Lords...we should desire to hold close the one thing left to us. The great courts of England. Call forth the Lord Chief Justice Fortescue as he will know best how to proceed. He will be our counsel.”

This they did and the next day in the House of Lords, it was the aged Chief Justice that spoke for the King, “Great Lords...we are here today to discuss a very thorny issue indeed. In all of my years to the bench, I think not that I have ever encountered more of a great matter. To be certain, we speak of the very realm and the crown that rules over us all. A question has been posed and the King himself would see it answered under all laws of England.”

Richard of York sat again to the King’s chair and listened with a raised brow as the Chief Justice continued, “As I have read the case, it is stated that our Lord Duke Richard of York claims precedence through the line of Philippa of Clarence and her granddaughter Lady Anne Mortimer derived from the second male child of King Edward III. As is well known, we all were deprived unduly by the too early death of Prince Edward, the first male child yet King Edward III was prolific thanks be to God.”

The Duke looked sharply to George Neville and the Bishop was quick to interject, “My Lord Chief Justice...is it not true that Prince Edward did have a son?”

“Indeed he did,” Fortescue gave nod, “Late named our King Richard II. Though sadly, this King did not hold issue.”

The voice of Norfolk could be heard calling out, “He may not have been allowed.”

The Chief Justice ignored that and continued, “Thus it is left to determine who holds the right of succession. Is right held simply by the act of holding? Some might suggest that. Yet here we hope to see the truth of it.”

Bishop Neville stood, “Is not the truth of it that the Lord of York through his inheritance is and can be said to be the true heir general of King Edward III holding his descent from the second son of that King?”

“I do not believe that we could argue against such idea,” Fortescue allowed, “Yet His Grace King Henry is clearly and by all rights the heir male of King Edward. He may trace his line directly through the male line from the Prince John called of Gaunt then through his son named Henry to our King Henry V and now his son that is sovereign. In truth, His Grace holds a double line from King Henry III in that the Duke of Lancaster was married to Blanche descended from the Lancastrian Plantagenet line of Henry of Grosmont, son to Edmund called Crouchback and he a son to that very King.”

The Bishop pounced, “So you would suggest that the right of male primogeniture is the proper legal concept, Lord Chief Justice?”

“Let us consider a hypothetical, my Lords,” the Chief Justice answered, “Let us say that a King has a daughter and a brother. That daughter then has a son. In this case, the King dies without further issue of his own. Does the kingdom descend to the daughter, or her son...or to the King’s brother?”

The various Lords spoke among themselves and there was much disagreement and confusion. Bishop Neville did not answer, so the Chief Justice continued, “I would posit that the realm should go to the brother for the woman is subject to the man. A woman is not fit to rule nor even transmit a claim. For is it not true that Adam was superior to Eve as he was able to teach her the moral virtues of prudence, courage and temperance? Man is to woman as the soul is to the body.”

Richard waited for this moment and took over for himself, “Very illuminating, sir. I shall posit two other cases which in fact are not hypothetical. The first is of a King that holds both a son and a daughter. Yet the son dies before the King and only the daughter is left to inherit. However...she does have a son. Would that you were around when King Henry II took his throne.”

“Well...” Fortescue hemmed, “...that was...a different time and...there was the anarchy, my Lord.”

“Indeed,” York continued, “Then shall we look to the other example? There is a King that holds four sons, in fact. And also some few daughters. Yet when that King dies, each of his sons inherit in turn though are deceased without their own living son. There was one, but it was a very short reign. However...there was the one daughter who still lived and married well. And in turn she did have a son of her own. So what to do? In this case, the throne of that King went to the man’s closest male cousin rather to his nearest male relative which in this case was nephew to the last reigning King. Is that the sort of thing you suggest?”

Fortescue pressed some papers before him before responding, “It speaks to salic law, my Lord, which is practiced in some lands.”

“From your testimony before, my Lord Chief Justice...” Richard pressed, “...it would appear that this is your argument.”

The Chief Justice pressed to his table, “I shall not deny it.”

“Yet in doing so...” the Duke of York allowed a smile, “...you deny the very claim of King Edward III on the throne of France for it was through his mother Queen Isabella of France that he demanded the Capetian inheritance and instead it followed to the cousin of Valois. Are you very certain that you still agree?”

The chamber erupted and the Lord Chief Justice was unsure what to say yet he composed himself enough to answer, “There are...many things to consider, my Lords. This being...such a difficult question...mayhap it best left to the Holy Father in Rome for he would know the true word of God on the matter.”

“I am certain that he would,” the Duke of York grinned as he stood and left the chamber feeling a victory, “Let us see what The Papa says!”

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

If its and buts were candy and nuts...

We'd all have a merry Christmas.

Were it up to you, everything would be given to the Irish.

It is very hard to say no to us. Especially if they are sufficiently motivated. ESPECIALLY if they are in a paradox game.

hus, my Lords...we should desire to hold close the one thing left to us. The great courts of England. Call forth the Lord Chief Justice Fortescue as he will know best how to proceed.

You must be joking.

From your testimony before, my Lord Chief Justice...” Richard pressed, “...it would appear that this is your argument.”

Now you're in my wheelhouse, mother fuckaaaaa!

Richard, based lawyer of York, schooling the entire government. Magnificent

“I am certain that he would,” the Duke of York grinned as he stood and left the chamber feeling a victory, “Let us see what The Papa says!”

And he's backed them into a corner leaving it up to the pope. Who has already said he supports Richard.

I'm both deeply impressed, pleased and a bit shocked there was actually a legal battle, albeit brief. Richard actually has the cards in this arena. He's the smartest one in the room, the best speaker, and can back his claim up with European (esepcially French precedence), whilst also being able to fall back on 'ah well, I'm the richest guy here with the biggest army, the pope in favour and the king in my prison.'

 

[Historywhiz]

So the half-priced diplo adviser turns out to be a case of getting what you paid for.

I have to be honest, I’m not sure if this scene passes the plausibility test. While I have not read any of Fortescue’s body of work or any contemporary descriptions of him, I’m not sure that I can see any Lord High Justice of England building then falling into a trap so elementary that The Anarchy and the Capetian succession both popped into my head immediately while reading his initial argument, despite not being from the Middle Ages, or a judge, or a lawyer, or English…

 

[HistoryDude]

I can't believe that there was actually a court scene. Nice!

Yeah, Richard just won that argument, and the Pope supports him. Will this soften Lancastrian resistance, though? It's easier to acknowledge a coup if it's already done. Of course, a Margaret comeback could benefit some lords...

 

[El Pip]

Legal War of the Roses! York at last showing sustained bursts of competency and some capacity to plan ahead, if he keeps this up he could do well.

On Fortescue falling into a trap, from a skim it looks a very "kings favourite" type appointment, certainly a hard core Henry loyalist. I'd also imagine that as a judge you don't really expect people to try and trap you, you watch on while one barrister tries to trap the other. Trapping a judge in court is just bad idea because an annoyed judge is not one disposed to rule in your favour, his mistake was not recognising that Parliament was not his court.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Now you're in my wheelhouse, mother fuckaaaaa!

Richard, based lawyer of York, schooling the entire government. Magnificent



And he's backed them into a corner leaving it up to the pope. Who has already said he supports Richard.

I'm both deeply impressed, pleased and a bit shocked there was actually a legal battle, albeit brief. Richard actually has the cards in this arena. He's the smartest one in the room, the best speaker, and can back his claim up with European (esepcially French precedence), whilst also being able to fall back on 'ah well, I'm the richest guy here with the biggest army, the pope in favour and the king in my prison.'

I'm not certain York is the smartest person, but he is the richest and does indeed have not only the better claim as well as seeming Papal approval. But it's never that simple, is it?

So the half-priced diplo adviser turns out to be a case of getting what you paid for.

I have to be honest, I’m not sure if this scene passes the plausibility test. While I have not read any of Fortescue’s body of work or any contemporary descriptions of him, I’m not sure that I can see any Lord High Justice of England building then falling into a trap so elementary that The Anarchy and the Capetian succession both popped into my head immediately while reading his initial argument, despite not being from the Middle Ages, or a judge, or a lawyer, or English…

One might think that, indeed. However, this was precisely Fortescue's argument. In fact, I used his exact words as we know them from extant documents when coming up with his hypothetical. Thus is was not too hard for Richard (and myself as writer) to poke some holes in it.

I can't believe that there was actually a court scene. Nice!

Yeah, Richard just won that argument, and the Pope supports him. Will this soften Lancastrian resistance, though? It's easier to acknowledge a coup if it's already done. Of course, a Margaret comeback could benefit some lords...

You are onto something there at the end. Wait for it.

Legal War of the Roses! York at last showing sustained bursts of competency and some capacity to plan ahead, if he keeps this up he could do well.

On Fortescue falling into a trap, from a skim it looks a very "kings favourite" type appointment, certainly a hard core Henry loyalist. I'd also imagine that as a judge you don't really expect people to try and trap you, you watch on while one barrister tries to trap the other. Trapping a judge in court is just bad idea because an annoyed judge is not one disposed to rule in your favour, his mistake was not recognising that Parliament was not his court.

This may well have been his trouble when speaking for the King. Fortescue was used to his words carrying great weight and being unquestioned.


To all - As might be imagined, I had great fun writing the above scene. I've been waiting to post it for months!! It is so rare for York to find great victory but on this one, he did. It's not the end of the war, for sure. But it was a battle won...at least for a day.

 

[Historywhiz]

One might think that, indeed. However, this was precisely Fortescue's argument. In fact, I used his exact words as we know them from extant documents when coming up with his hypothetical. Thus is was not too hard for Richard (and myself as writer) to poke some holes in it.

I believe you are dealing honestly with us, but my brain cannot comprehend this. It’s not often (enough) that I ask this but: “Source?”

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

I believe you are dealing honestly with us, but my brain cannot comprehend this. It’s not often (enough) that I ask this but: “Source?”

This is why I said Richard is the smartest guy in the room. Some of these people were very, very dumb.

 

[coz1]

I believe you are dealing honestly with us, but my brain cannot comprehend this. It’s not often (enough) that I ask this but: “Source?”

On that score, I can say at least Alison Weir's The Wars of the Roses and then her sources from the back of the book (too many to list here.)

EDIT - Actually, it may be two from Fortescue himself: The Governance of England and De Laudibus Legum Angliae in which he may have put forth this argument after the fact (as he wrote much of his more famous work after 1463) but it surely works that he may have said it at the time.

This is why I said Richard is the smartest guy in the room. Some of these people were very, very dumb.

Indeed.

 

[El Pip]

This is why I said Richard is the smartest guy in the room. Some of these people were very, very dumb.

I suspect it also helps that the actual smart people are either backing Richard or keeping their mouth shut at this point.

Even if you oppose York speaking out in favour of Henry at this point is not a wise move. York has the King as hostage, an army in London and the only figure a counter-coup could rally around is the Queen, who remains widely hated. York appears to have every advantage. So if you are a clever Lord who spots a hole in Richard's argument are you really going to speak up and risk making yourself a target? Or will you wait for a better opportunity.

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

York is enjoying his time in Parliament.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

I suspect it also helps that the actual smart people are either backing Richard or keeping their mouth shut at this point.

Even if you oppose York speaking out in favour of Henry at this point is not a wise move. York has the King as hostage, an army in London and the only figure a counter-coup could rally around is the Queen, who remains widely hated. York appears to have every advantage. So if you are a clever Lord who spots a hole in Richard's argument are you really going to speak up and risk making yourself a target? Or will you wait for a better opportunity.

Especially considering things are still rather fluid and there is no clear victor at present.

York is enjoying his time in Parliament.

This time, at least.

 

[coz1]

Westminster, October 1460​

“It has been a week, brother,” the Earl of Salisbury sat with Richard of York by the hearth of his apartment at the Palace, “And it still goes round and round.”

The Duke looked pensively to the flames of the fire, “Like so many seeming victories, it is one and then few in the after.”

“At the least, we are renewed to our lands and titles,” the Earl suggested.

Richard shrugged, “That be little solace, sir. I fear that I yet again fail. I hold the right of it, but few seem willing to accept.”

“How could they, Dickon?” Salisbury leaned in, “You ask of them a thing...you ask of me...to ignore a thing to which we have given oath!”

“For right reason!” York stood and leaned to the mantle with great irritation, “There be no other way, brother! Even now we hear that the Lady of Anjou makes her way back into this realm. And holds with her Scots?! This be no way to rule a Kingdom, sir! My cousin is as passive as a lamb and I might say that I love him for that, yet he cannot reign. No longer!”

“Might I say, Dickon...you show a hubris,” the Earl suggested.

Richard turned to him with shock, “That I should allow this Speaker Thorpe to the Commons say such scurrilous things? No, sir! It was my cousin that accepted the courts and I shall stand by their word for I know my worth and right!”

“To throw him to prison at Fleet?” Salisbury questioned, “It is heavy handed.”

The Duke threw up his hands and shifted to pour a drink, “Would that we had seen such from a monarch to this realm these long many years! Not since the days of Henry fifth have we seen such. Only by those that practice under the King without his writ and knowledge. You know this! Why do you question me so?!”

“Because I love you, brother,” the Earl answered calmly, “And I wish you on the right path.”

Richard turned without his drink and replied with force, “I will tell you now, sir...I would not have done this if there were any other choice. There is not! After the humiliation of Ludford Bridge and our exile, we were dead men walking and you were as much as I! This idea that we might hold the King from his wife? It is laughable for she will always find another to do her bidding as she does so now. It is said that Devon goes to her. Likely Northumberland too. Westmorland has exited court and no longer sits to Parliament. How many more will follow as she rules herself and not that of this realm?!”

“Many, sir,” Salisbury was plain, “From Commons and Lords...their numbers dwindle. Beaumont, Arundel, Wiltshire...these Lords depart. Of Barons...only Cromwell remains of those you might sway to your cause. And likely as he does not wish the return progress due to his infirmity. Even Lord Stanley, Dickon. It is an oath and while he and many others will be careful with it...well...they are careful. They know not how it will play and seek to be comforted by what is known.”

Richard fumed, “It IS known! We have lived under it for lo these many years! What more must they see? It is a weak King that leads us to ruin and only a strong one will gain us that which is proper! That which is right!”

“And it holds no thing to do with your own?” the Earl questioned, “You did not seek this?”

The Duke rounded his chair and sat with strength to hold his brother in law’s knee, “Richard Neville...I have known you long. Trust you and value your word. Have given to you mine own in all honesty. For the love that I hold to your sister and all of my children, this has never been my goal. I am an honest Lord. Mayhap too honest for others dislike my words. Yet I hold true for England, sir! Our worth! Not that of the French or the Burgundians...none other! This is our kingdom and I would see it made right!”

The Earl of Salisbury gave nod and crossed a leg as he sat back, “Your son and mine both seem to like the idea. It is a new world to them, is it not?”

“It is our world that we give to them, sir,” Richard was certain as he too sat back, “Such that they need not suffer the anguish that we have seen. We both fought in France. To Normandy. And for what? To see it sold for a piece of flesh that is no better than the worst butcher could provide? For all of the very many times that we have attempted to give good and honest counsel to this King...mine own cousin! That we would be ignored? So that low men could prosper while we are made to pay for it all?! No, sir! No, I say!! We have done ours and we shall not do it again if we do not hold the power of it!”

“Yet sovereign, Richard...” Salisbury questioned, “...do you truly think to hold that?”

The Duke of York sat taller, “It is my right as we have seen. The great Lord Chief Justice was shot down entirely in his argument. And Henry, as is his want, makes none for himself. Would that he did such, else I need not make this case! Yet he does not and here we are.”

Salisbury kept a firm eye to him, “Yet King, sir...is that you?”

“A damn sight better King than he has made!” Richard stood again, “And I shall do something with the office should I hold it!”

The Earl spoke softly as he answered, “I think that you shall not, brother. I do not believe that you hold the votes.”

“More bloody low men!” York fumed once more and went to find his drink, “Frightened of what may be!”

“Nay, sir,” Salisbury answered to him kindly enough, “Unless I am also low.”

Richard turned, “You would not support me? After all of this?!”

“I would support your cause, brother...” the Earl replied, “...yet not the manner in which you go about it. We desire to live in a peaceable kingdom, my Lord. This is not that. And from your efforts, I am unsure that your remedy is anything better than what has already come. You throw us all into disrepair, sir. If we are to heal this world...then I fear that these efforts are none but harm.”

The Duke narrowed his brow, “Brother...you always wish to give me words of wisdom. I fear that at this date...that path is no longer available. It is not possible. If I do not do what I say...then I shall never be trusted again and we...you and I and our children...we shall all find the block. Like my father before me. No, sir! I hold the right...the pedigree...the reason. It is this or no thing else!”

“I am not a young man anymore, Dickon,” Salisbury lifted from his seat and moved to his brother in law, “I think that in many respects the world may belong to our sons and no longer us. We have done our part, have we not?”

Richard did not like his words but gave nod, “Yes. Of course we have.”

“And...it was interesting to me...the case made by Fortescue...” he continued but Richard laughed.

“Truly? I made a fool of the man!”

Salisbury held up a calm hand, “You did, sir. Yet still...in that you brought up the claim of Edward III. It was resolved...in its way.”

“What mean you?!” the Duke questioned with incredulity.

“Rightful King or no...” Salisbury replied, “...Henry V made a deal with Charles of France. In that he was made heir which then passed to your cousin. If you truly believe it...then you would hold it as well.”

Richard did not follow, “And?”

“And...sir,” the Earl continued, “It was a compromise that all could agree upon. Well...not all. Yet those that mattered. It satisfied the church. It satisfied the Lords. Henry was made the heir to Charles upon his death and it did come to pass. Though born of blood, it was peaceful in the end.”

“And yet who holds France at the now?” the Duke scoffed, “Hell! Who would bloody want it?!”

The Earl of Salisbury pressed a hand to his brother in law’s arm, “Dickon...it is an out. I do not think that you will win this in the courts and frankly...I would not vote for you in anyways. I took an oath. Yet...were you named Henry’s heir disinheriting the Prince Edward and all else...I do believe that some would come to your side. You hold the right. Yet you do not hold the crown.”

“I did not come this far...” Richard tried to reply with strength but Salisbury pressed more forcefully.

“Dickon! Take a victory! Please God, man!!”

The Duke of York pulled away and held to the mantle. He seemed to argue with himself until he questioned, “How...how would it work?”

“I would speak for you, sir,” Salisbury answered, “To those that are left, I would make your claim that you should and have always held the right to be Henry’s successor. Especially because...well, because. None will argue with that for they cannot.”

Richard looked to the flames, “They have made promises to this Prince.”

“She has made them do so for her own worth,” the Earl replied, “And was that not our true goal? Rid this realm of her pernicious influence? King Henry is...not ideal. I could not argue otherwise. Yet he is King, sir. I have promised to serve him and so have you. However, if you could show a kindness I do believe that many Lords and not so few from the Commons may see that your worth is true and not some attempt to usurp. Let them know that you wish not to be King. That it is as ever your entire wish and desire for this realm and not the crown that rules it.”

“As I have always said!!” Richard turned with pain to his eyes.

Salisbury allowed a slim smile, “Then prove it, brother. You hold the very throne before you. You’ve claimed it. Now give it up. If you have ever worried about your efforts to sway others to your cause and person...you will have never done anything more magnanimous.”

Richard of York considered it and stewed, “He will not like it.”

“We did not come here to make friends of the King,” Salisbury answered, “We came here to serve him and this realm.”

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

I think a lot more people would go for this, esepcially as it allows Richard to then be regent until Henry dies, and basically removes the Queen, who cab now be executed as a traitor.

One last phase of the civil war, at the very least. Play this in the Parliament, and then off to the North to face the Scottish and Lancaster armies one more time.

Hopefully Richard wins, kills or captured the queen, and kills or captures most of the enemy Lords.

Worst case is they lose and Richard is killed.

 

[El Pip]

Oh Richard. Just make a plan and stick to it, that's all that is required.

Shrewsbury makes good points and had York gone for this approach in the first place he wouldn't have seen so many nobles run off to join the Queen and this would have long been settled. But now he has made his hubristic grab for the crown it's a bit too late for that. York has managed to find the worst of both options and what is worse this will encourage people to think that with a bit of pressure he will lose his nerve (again!) and back down on the bigger issue.