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@coz1 I am finally and utterly caught up! I hope never to fall behind again. Is it really the length of the Fellowship of the Ring trilogy??! Amazing.

I cringe every time Richard and Warwick are together. I did a little in the past because he seemed to have good counsel of opportunities to be seized. Now he counsels caution and still is not heeded. It's almost like he's switched places, with Richard playing Henry and Warwick playing Richard. A worthy advisor ignored for no good reason. And the grating disregard will build animosity, as it did in the previous case.

Great work Allen! Looking forward to next update

Renss
 
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I wonder how long until Warwick changes sides...
There is no guarantee that he will, but it is clear that he is not happy with certain decisions being made.

He can certainly try but that would work about as well as Oxford or Exeter. The Queen is the real holdout power now, not Henry, and Warwick would as soon be executed by her as anything.

He doesn't gain anything by betraying Richard and trying to get Henry back on the throne. Sure, he could do it anyway because he feels slighted or convinced himself he could do better, but it would be a bad move...and it sounds like he doesn't actually want to fight anymore.
The key, at least as I see it, is Warwick sensing that he is being overlooked. Others are gaining preference, titles, etc. and encroaches on his idea that he should be the preeminent Lord of the land. More below, but I believe it speaks to his greed.

Deliberately provoking the Scots is an interesting move, but, if it deals with Margaret, it's probably not a terrible idea. How much does Richard want to punish the Scots? Does he wish to seize territory? Force indemnities? Both?

France looks divided enough that delaying the war there shouldn't harm England too much...
I don't know that he wants to punish the Scots as much as provoke hoping it pulls France into a war as they still hold to the "auld alliance." More below.

Much better in the long term to deal with Scotland. Esepcially with that woman there. And it's rhe right tike to do it. Scotland is at the start of centuries of decline, and unlike OTL, there is no France to balance that out to protect it. England should strike now, annex it all, fix up Ireland and then go back to France in a decade with a secure domain back home, no more pretenders, and no enemies in the backgarden.
That is likely a good strategic move for England/Richard, but he is pretty dead set to get back to France.

@coz1 I am finally and utterly caught up! I hope never to fall behind again. Is it really the length of the Fellowship of the Ring trilogy??! Amazing.

I cringe every time Richard and Warwick are together. I did a little in the past because he seemed to have good counsel of opportunities to be seized. Now he counsels caution and still is not heeded. It's almost like he's switched places, with Richard playing Henry and Warwick playing Richard. A worthy advisor ignored for no good reason. And the grating disregard will build animosity, as it did in the previous case.

Great work Allen! Looking forward to next update

Renss
Amazing is right! I am very happy that you have been able to move through this entire work and very appreciative! Most people I imagine find it daunting at this late date, so thank you!!

I am curious as to your thoughts on how I managed the big change, as well as thoughts on the characters and if they were fully realized.

As to Warwick, as I mentioned to TBC above, I don't think you are wrong to sense that the Richard/Warwick relationship has switched a bit. But not so much. Richard has always been irritated by Warwick's boldness and even if the Earl is counseling calm right now, he is still sort of doing his own thing (or trying) and Richard is putting his foot down. In many ways, he is acting in opposite from Henry. Where Henry was always unsure, Richard knows what he wants - for right or wrong.


To all - So a few things to cover here as we start the new chapter:

1.) In the interest of avoiding possible confusion going forward, it should be noted that certain characters will henceforth be known by different names due to their new titles. Lord Fauconberg (Warwick's uncle and Salisbury's brother) has been named the new Earl of Kent. As well, Viscount Henry Bourchier (Richard's brother in law) is now the Earl of Essex and Lord Treasurer. Many others have found some largess from the attainder of the Lancastrians and this will continue.

2.) To follow from the above, there are certain things happening behind the scenes that I am only mentioning in passing. It is a gameplay issue proving that I am, in fact, playing the game. ;) Namely, when Richard took the throne and I looked at the workings of government, there was way too much crown land owned by others (ie, crown land was very low as a relation to nobles, church, etc.) This works well with what happened IRL as Henry had pawned off much (or his council had done) in order to fund many things. Henry was a very poor King in more ways than one. Poor in both action and treasury. Richard is taking that crown land back which is making some rather angry (perhaps even Warwick given his wealth.)

3.) The screenshot to start the update was not ideal as it did not show everything but it is what I have. Ireland remains quite split up and the game does not model well how it actually worked. I tried to express it within the update, but IRL many of these Irish lands were nominally under the English crown as opposed to the game which creates them as fully independent. I am trying to split the difference a bit. Fitzgerald is indeed now the Earl of Kildare who is actually at war with Scotland in game. Rather than expressing that outright in the narrative, I suggested tension between them. It makes more sense to me. And it is true that Richard was loved in Ireland way more than Henry.

In fact, I read recently that some historians suggest that Richard thought briefly of staying in Ireland when he and the others fled after Ludford Bridge. He was set up there well and the Anglo-Irish Lords were supportive. In an alternate story, it might have been interesting to follow that through and see what happened.

pzfRKFA.png


This is a better pic of Ireland from a little later in game.

4.) The screen does however show the split nature of France which will matter as we go forward. Not to give away spoilers, but I thought it was important to remind of the situation on the continent. Please feel free to ask any questions about the game itself and I will try to answer them as best as I can remember. This portion of the game was played some time ago but I still have quite a few screens. As well, if you look very closely at that opening screen, you can see exactly where I am going in-game. ;)

5.) It should be noted that in-game England is allied with Leinster in Ireland as well as (soon to be) Castile. France is allied with Scotland and Toulouse. Make of that what you will. :D

6.) Finally, and as always, thank you for following along and giving comment. This work is almost three years old by now and many, many pages long. Not everyone will take the challenge to read the entire thing as @Rensslaer has done (and thank you again!!!) but I value each and every reader be they silent or vocal. So thank you, thank you and thank you!!

And as the spirit moves you (Easter egg for some long time membAARs), please do not forget to vote in the YAYAs. Every writAAR will thank you. :)
 
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VaRh0Mc.jpg


Blackness Castle, Scotland, October 1462

Margaret was unsure of what she was hearing. It was too painful. Could it be true?

“What do you say to me, my Lord?” she asked with incredulity.

Queen Mary sat next to her husband and skewed a brow, “My dear...you speak to a King.”

“And you speak to a Queen!” Margaret glared.

King James sat back with a cold eye, “Not as I hear it from the south, madam.”

She stood there before them without words. Her bluff was called and she realized that she would have to stifle her anger if she had any hope of reversing what she had been told. Calmly, she tried to reason, “I apologize, Your Grace. Yet as I was anointed so, it does carry a great weight to myself and to my husband...the rightful sovereign of England.”

“As it does to me,” King James replied, “Yet your...circumstances...have changed. Though you may have lived within England for these many years, it is not uncommon to these parts to see great upheaval and we must ever look to these possible changes. The history of Scotland is littered with Kings and Lords and it changes greatly from year to year...generation to generation. While sovereign, I am always desiring of protection for my fellow monarchs and their plight, yet I must always look to mine own.”

“Then why would you not assist mine?” Margaret pleaded, “For if you do not, this cur of York will surely be to your door.”

James showed a slight sorrow, “It is just that, my Lady. He knocks already. Though to Ireland, it is messing about in my prerogative and will not be long before he tests us to the border of Cumberland.”

“I hold allies to there still!” Margaret protested.

The King of Scotland shrugged, “Not enough.”

“Where am I to go?” she offered tears, “What am I to do?!”

Queen Mary was as ever touched by her weeping and held her husband’s hand as she answered, “Do you not still hold affection to Anjou? Has not your father regained some of his ancestral lands?”

“Mon pere...he cannot assist me,” Margaret wiped a tear away and looked on with a forlorn eye, “He is a beggar himself and cut off from Holy Church at that.”

“That is too poor,” Mary answered, “For did not Christ attend to the wounded and wretched?”

Margaret tried not to answer as she truly felt, “I am afraid that I am far too unaware of what Christ may do for he appears to have forsaken me.”

“Christ or no, madam,” King James was not interested in a theological conversation, “Do your men not do their best to the French lands? There remain two Dukes to your service even though they are to there. Would that not be a better place for your refuge?”

“It is exile,” she pleaded, “And my uncle would not listen in any ways. He cannot for he has little and less. No, sir...non! What we require are soldiers and only you have them.”

James gave nod, “And require them myself, my Lady. To Kildare...to the south. I am saddened by your plight, yet I shall not allow it to lead to the ruin of mine own kingdom. I hold my own troubles, madam. And the longer that you stay to here, the more likely it is that this King Richard will come to find you.”

“I am heart sick!” Margaret nearly collapsed.

Queen Mary was once more touched but her husband held up his hand, “My Queen is an angel and would keep to the most pitiful creatures yet I must hold a hard heart in this. I would fund your travels, my Lady. See you to safety wherever you may wish to go. Yet it will not be to here where you stay. Make your choice.”

James stood and held his hand for his wife to hold and then they walked from the hall leaving Margaret to her ladies. She watched in shock still and then shuffled herself to her chambers. As she exited the hall, she was met by Lord Ros.

“I heard, Your Grace,” he said with a sad face to match her own.

Margaret narrowed her eyes and asked, “Where is my son?”

“To your apartments, of course,” Ros replied with certainty.

She then pressed, “And my husband?”

Lord Ros winced, “With Exeter.”

“Mon Dieu!” Margaret exclaimed and rushed to see them.

Flying through the corridors, she finally made it to his chamber and did not knock before she entered. His servant Thomas of Bath was shocked but dared not say a word but Henry did look up with surprise and the Duke of Exeter with some fear. They were both kneeling at prayer and Margaret was incensed, “My Lord Exeter, I accept you here but do not care for it! I trust you not and certainly not about the King!”

“You shall find a calm,” Henry answered her gaze with irritation, “We speak to Almighty God and I am certain that He be not pleased at your countenance.”

“I care not who may be pleased for I am not and neither be should you!” Margaret pressed back, “We are to be packed away, husband and made to leave! We have not time nor place to practice your piety for God does not love us!”

Henry skewed an eye, “That is heretical.”

“And yet it is the truth, Henri!” she exclaimed, “Can you not see what is around you? Open your eyes and spy that we are without! I am told just now that we are to leave Scotland! They will not have us!”

“We do not think that King James would do that to us,” he answered with a smile to Exeter, “The Scots King is a fine man as I have found him.”

Exeter looked from the Queen to Henry hoping not for her wrath, “He is a King, Your Grace. Such as you. He would look to his own.”

Margaret stepped on that thought immediately, “And does so!!”

As Henry moved to stand, both Exeter and Thomas of Bath assisted him and he found a chair to sit. With an exhausted sigh, he looked once more to his wife, “If you do not think that I am struck with grief at our circumstance, then you are wrong. Yet as I hold no home at the now, one place is just as fine as another so long as we are safe. That is what good Exeter here says to me...”

“I know not why you would trust this man!” Margaret shouted, “He is no thing more than leverage over York for he remains married to his daughter! Yet he has done so much damage, sir! Were it not for him, as I understand, we may not even have a King Richard!”

Henry remained calm, “He has told me and we have prayed over it. God does forgive, madam. Though I may not be named King at the now, I remain anointed so and thus I would uphold the laws of Almighty God.”

“And I know not why you would not trust me,” the Duke of Exeter suggested, “For I have I not come to you over and over? I have offered myself and have been pushed away. Only His Grace the King has embraced me and for that I am thankful.”

“You are a wicked soul,” Margaret looked to him with disdain and then to her husband, “And you? L'homme le plus fou du monde. The two of you deserve one another. Frankly, I care not where you go. Yet I will take my son with me and go to France where I may find some refuge with my father and uncle...such good it may do me I know not what.”

Henry raised a brow, “No doubt there you will find also the Duke of Somerset. That should please you.”

“You speak of false notions!” she admonished, “And you may not stay to here either. Within the day have your man here pack your things. We leave at first light!”
 
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Ever so slowly starting to collapse. Good.

Provided Richard stays stable and keeps most loyal with land in Ireland, Scotland or francs to replace the crownlands he takes back (to add to his own considerable wealth, land and power already), they can't really hurt him.

It'll take some of Richards Lords turning on him now to restart the civil war. And there's not enough good reasons for that to happen.
 
Your foreign policy does not exist. Only mine. And though I have appreciated your efforts for these many years, I will not have you running a different policy than the one that I desire.
Warwick bowed his head after the dressing down, “Of course.”
The Earl narrowed his brow in irritation before making a smile as he turned back, “As you desire, Your Grace.”
Brick by brick, the wall between them builds. But how high will it become? A slighted Warwick is not a good thing to have lurking within striking distance.
I wonder how long until Warwick changes sides...
Ah, he will never change sides - as the only one he really holds to is his own! ;)
King James sat back with a cold eye, “Not as I hear it from the south, madam.”
At last - good riddance, Madam. Pack yourself off, bag and baggage!
“Where am I to go?” she offered tears, “What am I to do?!”
To a convent? To exile? To hell itself? Whichever it may be, do so with haste.
 
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Ever so slowly starting to collapse. Good.

Provided Richard stays stable and keeps most loyal with land in Ireland, Scotland or francs to replace the crownlands he takes back (to add to his own considerable wealth, land and power already), they can't really hurt him.

It'll take some of Richards Lords turning on him now to restart the civil war. And there's not enough good reasons for that to happen.
I would agree that Richard is in a fairly strong position at the moment, so he can afford to irritate some like Warwick. Not for too long, however. But it certainly helps him that Margaret (and by extension Henry) are getting weaker. Clearly his provocation towards the Scots worked.

Brick by brick, the wall between them builds. But how high will it become? A slighted Warwick is not a good thing to have lurking within striking distance.

Ah, he will never change sides - as the only one he really holds to is his own! ;)
And the slights keep coming. Right now Warwick can grin and bear it but for how long?

At last - good riddance, Madam. Pack yourself off, bag and baggage!

To a convent? To exile? To hell itself? Whichever it may be, do so with haste.
I have to admit, I purposefully stole from a rather famous movie when I wrote those lines for Margaret. Kudos for anyone that can guess which one. I'll give you a hint - it takes place in the south. ;)
 
I have to admit, I purposefully stole from a rather famous movie when I wrote those lines for Margaret. Kudos for anyone that can guess which one. I'll give you a hint - it takes place in the south. ;)
Though Rhett had the frankly line, iirc? ;)
 
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So the immediate:

Henry doesn't seem completely out of his mind. In fact, he seems to perceive better than in the past that his wife isn't necessarily on his side. I welcome that recognition. He remains impassive as to his/her fate, which means he may not do anything to resolve this. He's in his happy place, with God. Margaret is cast off and away. But still looking for that string to tug at which could make her into a factor again.

The work as a whole:

Wow, this is an awesome ask. But I have the benefit of having read it all in a go, pretty much. Otherwise I might find some areas fuzzy (I'm sure I still do -- hard to keep it all in mind at once).

First I would say this work has been a pleasure to read not just because it's an awesome story told by a remarkably talented author. It's also a pleasure because it's a far fuller fleshing out of the Wars of the Roses for me than I've ever had before. I had been vaguely aware of the events as a "civil war of sorts in English history" and my history classes I'm sure taught some details that I'd forgotten, but I've not read any books on it. I really appreciated that you would tell, as you went, the real history and the alternate history in tandem as they occurred. This is the beauty of well-done alternate history -- creating plausible alternative paths and explaining how certain changed events also changed consequences and realities.

I would say yes, the characters -- those that matter -- are fully realized and well written. They're believable in their actions, the dialogue is believable and carefully crafted. You're doing what I tried to do in Fire Warms, which is to adapt what we know of a historical figure's thinking and personality into a character who can live and breathe outside the limitations of "known" history.

Cecily was confident and assured and had firm direction at the beginning. As bids for power failed, or almost succeeded and then faded, and especially as she lost her home, and eventually Edward, I sense that her spirit has faded some. Now that she's Queen, she will take the perks that come with it, but I sense the fire in her belly is less. Or maybe that's just because she hasn't had need to drive Richard so much, because his fire seems to have increased.

Richard and Henry were both frustratingly tentative in the beginning. Richard didn't even know what he wanted, or couldn't admit it to himself. But as he faced those same failures of bids for power, or near-success and then rejection, it eventually hardened resolve in him. I've always sympathized with Richard (and Cecily) from the very beginning, and it was hard to at times because he often made the wrong choices.

Now that he's King, Richard has lost the reserve that marked his early days. Maybe the loss of his son proved to him that it's not a game at which he can play. It's almost as if the spirit and determination that Edward eventually developed was transferred to Richard. Maybe Edward in his youth had the vision that his father knew but refused to see, and once Edward was gone he no longer had the luxury of not seeing what he didn't want to see. Now that Richard is King he's single-minded, and I see that he so wants Normandy back. And he seems to have a vision of how to do it, even if not everyone sees it the same. Will it become his Moby Dick and destroy him? I hope not. At present I judge that he is both able and determined, and will see it through. Not without some challenges, and I'm sure Margaret lurks in the background to provide them. I also wonder how Warwick will help and/or obstruct Richard's vision -- the relationship which was always strained has now become fraught.

Edmund is a good and able spare. He seemed to have Richard's caution and reflection in his personality while Edward took to the other side of the father's personality. You have developed him some, but in a way he's always been your spare, and I think his development remains mostly in the future, and has only just begun "at the now". I sense that he will rise to the occasion and be successful when the time comes. I suppose Edmund is "your creature" to a large degree since his early death OTL means there wasn't a whole lot known about him.

Edward negotiated his own transition. He really didn't want reality to intrude upon his dreamily imagined "present" when he was young. He didn't share his father's drive, and seemed mostly to want to ignore all the kerfluffle (hints of Henry?) and live his life the way he wanted it. As Somerset became drawn away from him and Warwick became a mentor, Edward became an apt pupil and learned the fire and passion and determination of Warwick, and in some ways eclipsed him (in your story at least). So Edward was often tugging his father along behind, "Dad, come see this, come do this! Why won't you come?" When he came into his own as a military and political leader, he was the man who his father should have been. And so one wonders whether they could really both exist at the same time as partners. More on that later...

Warwick was the reckless guy driving Richard's policy and vision far faster than anyone wanted him to. Which was an awesome element to see! I quite enjoyed the consternation he caused. He's always been a valuable (I didn't say valued) member of Richard's team, and I feel for him deeply -- I feel his resentment -- as Richard continues to ignore and put off Warwick's advice and withholds rewards which (in my opinion) Warwick clearly earned. Warwick should be a duke by now -- or so I think and so HE thinks. But others who did little and less are advanced and rewarded instead of him. Gosh that has to burn!

I'm not going to speak on Henry, as a hundred (two hundred?) comments from your readers have voiced my thoughts on him. He's utterly frustrating, and it's even more frustrating that it's largely not his fault. He has the personality he came with, which wasn't one suited to rule, and so others have led, pulled, manipulated, deceived, and ignored him and his wishes. Henry's driving passion was always to see England at peace, which is a noble goal. But he blindly refused to see how he could make that happen, and instead invited conflict into his midst in so many ways. Believable? So far as I can tell you're representing him as he was historically, and plausibly creating reasons why he acted as he did. It's no less a tragedy, and it's no less believable because we cannot fathom how he could have been so passive.

Margaret of Anjou is someone we all hate, and who we refuse to have sympathy for. As you've said, she's made her bed (and invited many to it!). But she's far more comprehensible because she is a creature who we see often in history. She knows what she wants, She knows what trappings she needs (or wants) to demonstrate her power. She seems out of her element now that she's lost those trappings. She's... .... I'm thinking back to my own Louis Napoleon here (Fire Warms) -- the guy who was a political genius but a military idiot and refused to believe he wasn't great at both. Margaret thinks she's really good at politics, but in reality she's only really good at scheming, manipulating and getting revenge -- at creating an atmosphere of fear where people do what she wants because they're afraid not to. But she doesn't miss the need to sometimes use a velvet hand to manipulate. So long as she lives, whether she has the power and leverage she wants, she is a danger simply because she's so vicious and driven.

I've done my tribute to Buckingham already, in a past post, and I don't know that I can improve upon it. Another character who I greatly miss is Salisbury. He was frustrating in his own way -- always counseling caution when Richard was already doubting and inclined toward inaction. But he was a genuinely good man (in your telling). I sense a sincerity and loyalty in him that Richard always needed, and it's sad he's no longer with us.

Exeter is fun and I'm enjoying your telling. You say you've taken him outside his historical role, and I'm enjoying that. I do actually sympathize with him, even though he's often working against what I want to see for England. Like Black William, he's unpredictable, and can show up unexpectedly in a starring role. I do question how angry Richard can still be with him despite his saving his life. But this may come around again and we may understand better as the story continues.

One last comment -- Allen Leighson. Gosh he's developed alot since his early days with that rebellion (the name is on the tip of my tongue but I can't remember). He was the English "shopkeeper" of cultural history, but he turned into an advisor to the future king's children, and saves Edmund's life. Got to love the development and look forward to what he'll do as the story continues!

To the key transition:

Edward, in some ways, was quickly becoming the kingly figure his father should have been. And really -- both historically and literarily -- there wasn't really room for two people in the same role. With Edward in the picture there wasn't room for Richard to grow into his role as King. And so it seemed clever and entirely logical to me how you manipulated the "alternative" to the history. Edward, I have to tell you, was starting to annoy me -- the cocky, know-it-all kid who tells the adults what they need to do and who pulls off the heroics everyone expects of the adults. I'm not talking full Wesley Crusher here, but he was too big for his britches in my personal opinion, and needed to be knocked down (or knocked off!). I know that historically this conflict was resolved by killing Richard and allowing Edward to take on the role he really wanted anyway. But I like your solution of knocking off Edward instead and allowing Richard and Edmund to continue. Blank slates from here on out, which is a joy for a writer who has hit his stride in writing for them! (this reminds me, btw, of Fire Warms' Kaiser Friedrich III, whose reign I turned into much more than it was historically).

And Somerset -- this jarring departure from real history w/re to Edward MUST create a wholly different result than the historical result did. I'm curious how that all plays. I didn't give Somerset his due in the character outline above. In some ways he's been his father's son, and doesn't have much of a will of his own (it seems to me). In other ways I feel like he has more drive and sense about him, and COULD turn into a key character as the story continues. I have no idea what happened historically, so I depend on you and your fans to instruct me.

I'm sure I could keep writing, but this seems like quite enough to digest (it's already 2/3 of the size of your updates!). In short -- great work! :D

Rensslaer
 
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Margaret is in a terrible position... Excellent! On the other hand, this move does reduce some of Richard's casus belli against Scotland...

Is the King of France excommunicated? He's apparently "cut off from the Holy Church"...

Was the Henry at the end the ex-king, calling Margaret out on cuckolding him? If so, why doesn't he make that public and try to return to England?
 
Is the King of France excommunicated? He's apparently "cut off from the Holy Church"...

Was the Henry at the end the ex-king, calling Margaret out on cuckolding him? If so, why doesn't he make that public and try to return to England?
I think it's Rene of Anjou, Margaret's father, who's excommunicated.

And yes, Henry was calling her out. :D

Rensslaer
 
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So the immediate:

Henry doesn't seem completely out of his mind. In fact, he seems to perceive better than in the past that his wife isn't necessarily on his side. I welcome that recognition. He remains impassive as to his/her fate, which means he may not do anything to resolve this. He's in his happy place, with God. Margaret is cast off and away. But still looking for that string to tug at which could make her into a factor again.
I have to say that I walk a fine line with Henry. While he does have his "episodes" there are also moments of clarity. I hesitate to "tear away the tinsel" too much, but as I considered Henry as a character and what we know of him IRL, I needed to find a way to show his supposed "madness" while making it believable. He could not be a raving madman because from all that I have read, he was not. Nor could he be a slobbering fool for the same reasons. Thus he rather teeters from knowing without a will to do much about it and unknowing or perhaps a willful blindness. Personally, I think he knows full well about his wife's infidelity but I will let you readers decide if that is so. ;)

The work as a whole:

Wow, this is an awesome ask. But I have the benefit of having read it all in a go, pretty much. Otherwise I might find some areas fuzzy (I'm sure I still do -- hard to keep it all in mind at once).

First I would say this work has been a pleasure to read not just because it's an awesome story told by a remarkably talented author. It's also a pleasure because it's a far fuller fleshing out of the Wars of the Roses for me than I've ever had before. I had been vaguely aware of the events as a "civil war of sorts in English history" and my history classes I'm sure taught some details that I'd forgotten, but I've not read any books on it. I really appreciated that you would tell, as you went, the real history and the alternate history in tandem as they occurred. This is the beauty of well-done alternate history -- creating plausible alternative paths and explaining how certain changed events also changed consequences and realities.
First of all, thank you!! This is a wonderful look at the work and these characters. I truly appreciate it! To look at a few of your viewpoints...

Cecily was confident and assured and had firm direction at the beginning. As bids for power failed, or almost succeeded and then faded, and especially as she lost her home, and eventually Edward, I sense that her spirit has faded some. Now that she's Queen, she will take the perks that come with it, but I sense the fire in her belly is less. Or maybe that's just because she hasn't had need to drive Richard so much, because his fire seems to have increased.
As stated, there are three major female characters in the story (Cecily and the two Margarets.) Obviously Margaret of Anjou takes up most of the oxygen, but each of them have their place to show as a sort of Lady Macbeth. I freely admit that I subscribe somewhat to the great man of history school. Not fully, but they cannot be ignored. And quite often, behind a great man is a great woman. Note that I do not mean that great = good. Rather I mean impactful and in that regard, Richard's arc cannot be considered without also considering his wife. Especially as I believe they had (have) that rare thing both then and now - a truly loving relationship and not one made of convenience and/or advancement. She is a bit more background right now, but she is not going away any time soon.

Now that he's King, Richard has lost the reserve that marked his early days. Maybe the loss of his son proved to him that it's not a game at which he can play. It's almost as if the spirit and determination that Edward eventually developed was transferred to Richard. Maybe Edward in his youth had the vision that his father knew but refused to see, and once Edward was gone he no longer had the luxury of not seeing what he didn't want to see. Now that Richard is King he's single-minded, and I see that he so wants Normandy back. And he seems to have a vision of how to do it, even if not everyone sees it the same. Will it become his Moby Dick and destroy him? I hope not. At present I judge that he is both able and determined, and will see it through. Not without some challenges, and I'm sure Margaret lurks in the background to provide them. I also wonder how Warwick will help and/or obstruct Richard's vision -- the relationship which was always strained has now become fraught.
I have to admit that Richard as King somewhat confounds me a bit like the dog that finally caught the car. His motivation before was always good governance and/or the throne itself. Now that he has gained it, there may be a bit of over compensating to prove that he is worthy of the role. Thus perhaps his unrelenting desire for a return to France. That makes sense to me, but may not be as exciting as a character because it may seem that he has achieved the goal that was the most part of his quest throughout the tale thus far. However, I do have some parts coming up to show his continued quest even if it may not be readily apparent right now.

Edmund is a good and able spare. He seemed to have Richard's caution and reflection in his personality while Edward took to the other side of the father's personality. You have developed him some, but in a way he's always been your spare, and I think his development remains mostly in the future, and has only just begun "at the now". I sense that he will rise to the occasion and be successful when the time comes. I suppose Edmund is "your creature" to a large degree since his early death OTL means there wasn't a whole lot known about him.
This is exactly spot on. As I've mentioned, I do sometimes feel a bit bad that I have not fully fleshed out Edmund as a character. However I have every opportunity to do so now and I hope to succeed in that. Time will tell.

Edward negotiated his own transition. He really didn't want reality to intrude upon his dreamily imagined "present" when he was young. He didn't share his father's drive, and seemed mostly to want to ignore all the kerfluffle (hints of Henry?) and live his life the way he wanted it. As Somerset became drawn away from him and Warwick became a mentor, Edward became an apt pupil and learned the fire and passion and determination of Warwick, and in some ways eclipsed him (in your story at least). So Edward was often tugging his father along behind, "Dad, come see this, come do this! Why won't you come?" When he came into his own as a military and political leader, he was the man who his father should have been. And so one wonders whether they could really both exist at the same time as partners. More on that later...

Edward, in some ways, was quickly becoming the kingly figure his father should have been. And really -- both historically and literarily -- there wasn't really room for two people in the same role. With Edward in the picture there wasn't room for Richard to grow into his role as King. And so it seemed clever and entirely logical to me how you manipulated the "alternative" to the history. Edward, I have to tell you, was starting to annoy me -- the cocky, know-it-all kid who tells the adults what they need to do and who pulls off the heroics everyone expects of the adults. I'm not talking full Wesley Crusher here, but he was too big for his britches in my personal opinion, and needed to be knocked down (or knocked off!). I know that historically this conflict was resolved by killing Richard and allowing Edward to take on the role he really wanted anyway. But I like your solution of knocking off Edward instead and allowing Richard and Edmund to continue. Blank slates from here on out, which is a joy for a writer who has hit his stride in writing for them! (this reminds me, btw, of Fire Warms' Kaiser Friedrich III, whose reign I turned into much more than it was historically).

And Somerset -- this jarring departure from real history w/re to Edward MUST create a wholly different result than the historical result did. I'm curious how that all plays. I didn't give Somerset his due in the character outline above. In some ways he's been his father's son, and doesn't have much of a will of his own (it seems to me). In other ways I feel like he has more drive and sense about him, and COULD turn into a key character as the story continues. I have no idea what happened historically, so I depend on you and your fans to instruct me.
I truly enjoyed writing for Edward and I am terribly sad that he is gone. Some of the more enjoyable parts of writing this story were the episodes between Edward and Richard and Edward with Somerset. In a lot of ways, I drew upon myself as a young man as inspiration for Ned. The smarter than you really are attitude, the surly teenager, the good looks and natural leader of men without really knowing what to do with it. And even without the sexual aspects, the relationship with Somerset was not too dissimilar from my own history of pulling my good, close friends closer to me than my family.

I am really pleased that the alternate of IRL history works even if it meant Edward had to die. That said, and it has already been shown, Edward does not really leave the story fully. His memory will continue to color many of the characters from Richard to Somerset. He's gone but he is far from forgotten.

Warwick was the reckless guy driving Richard's policy and vision far faster than anyone wanted him to. Which was an awesome element to see! I quite enjoyed the consternation he caused. He's always been a valuable (I didn't say valued) member of Richard's team, and I feel for him deeply -- I feel his resentment -- as Richard continues to ignore and put off Warwick's advice and withholds rewards which (in my opinion) Warwick clearly earned. Warwick should be a duke by now -- or so I think and so HE thinks. But others who did little and less are advanced and rewarded instead of him. Gosh that has to burn!
I agree with you. Warwick should already be named a Duke. Historically, that title was reserved for royal blood (see Buckingham, Norfolk, Exeter, and Somerset) and only William de la Pole got his title for service to the crown (part the reason many did not care for Suffolk.) Richard Neville can easily claim that due to his Beaufort heritage and now also as nephew to the King. Yet, for whatever reason, Richard is not willing to take that step. Indeed it does burn and the last episode between them shows it even more. John de la Pole (Richard's son in law) gets a Dukedom but not yet Warwick. I don't think that it is spoiler to say that it is on purpose.

I'm not going to speak on Henry, as a hundred (two hundred?) comments from your readers have voiced my thoughts on him. He's utterly frustrating, and it's even more frustrating that it's largely not his fault. He has the personality he came with, which wasn't one suited to rule, and so others have led, pulled, manipulated, deceived, and ignored him and his wishes. Henry's driving passion was always to see England at peace, which is a noble goal. But he blindly refused to see how he could make that happen, and instead invited conflict into his midst in so many ways. Believable? So far as I can tell you're representing him as he was historically, and plausibly creating reasons why he acted as he did. It's no less a tragedy, and it's no less believable because we cannot fathom how he could have been so passive.
To return to the above as regards Henry - it really is one of the great mysteries of history. It is not difficult to see how this man with all of his weaknesses (and some few strengths) lost everything, but the prevailing question remains...why? From all of my reading, he was not truly "mad" or "crazy." He was resolutely pious which I have hopefully shown throughout the work. From that, I believe that directed him towards peace whenever it could be found be it with France and within the realm of England. What is maddening is that he was never consistent. And that is the worst thing for a supposed leader (King.)

Henry's arc is far from over so stay tuned to see if I make it work. He really is fascinating to write for.

Margaret of Anjou is someone we all hate, and who we refuse to have sympathy for. As you've said, she's made her bed (and invited many to it!). But she's far more comprehensible because she is a creature who we see often in history. She knows what she wants, She knows what trappings she needs (or wants) to demonstrate her power. She seems out of her element now that she's lost those trappings. She's... .... I'm thinking back to my own Louis Napoleon here (Fire Warms) -- the guy who was a political genius but a military idiot and refused to believe he wasn't great at both. Margaret thinks she's really good at politics, but in reality she's only really good at scheming, manipulating and getting revenge -- at creating an atmosphere of fear where people do what she wants because they're afraid not to. But she doesn't miss the need to sometimes use a velvet hand to manipulate. So long as she lives, whether she has the power and leverage she wants, she is a danger simply because she's so vicious and driven.
I can only say...indeed. ;)

I've done my tribute to Buckingham already, in a past post, and I don't know that I can improve upon it. Another character who I greatly miss is Salisbury. He was frustrating in his own way -- always counseling caution when Richard was already doubting and inclined toward inaction. But he was a genuinely good man (in your telling). I sense a sincerity and loyalty in him that Richard always needed, and it's sad he's no longer with us.

Exeter is fun and I'm enjoying your telling. You say you've taken him outside his historical role, and I'm enjoying that. I do actually sympathize with him, even though he's often working against what I want to see for England. Like Black William, he's unpredictable, and can show up unexpectedly in a starring role. I do question how angry Richard can still be with him despite his saving his life. But this may come around again and we may understand better as the story continues.
One of the more enjoyable aspects of writing this story has been to delve into these secondary characters. I did not expect, when I began this tale, to spend so much time looking at Buckingham or Exeter or even Salisbury (as important as he is to the plot.) Yet once introduced, it was interesting to me as I watched their part in every step and their parts were integral. Whether historical or completely fabricated by myself, all of this would not have (could not have) happened without the part they played. So too Norfolk (and I was saddened that I could not give him a proper send off as I enjoyed writing for him) and specifically both Somersets, father and son. Hell, one of my favorite scenes to write was the very early one between the original Somerset, John Beaufort and his brother Edmund with Suffolk lurking behind the scenes. That one scene has so many ramifications to future history. It is perhaps easily breezed over, but it should not be. And that is one I wrote way before 2021. As mentioned, this story has been in my head for a very long time.

One last comment -- Allen Leighson. Gosh he's developed alot since his early days with that rebellion (the name is on the tip of my tongue but I can't remember). He was the English "shopkeeper" of cultural history, but he turned into an advisor to the future king's children, and saves Edmund's life. Got to love the development and look forward to what he'll do as the story continues!
This comment pleases me more than you may know. If you go back to the beginning, one may recall that I suggested that I had found the "best way" to finally tell this tale. And of all of the non-historical characters, Leighson is definitely the most realized. (By the way, it was Cade's Rebellion in 1450 when he shows up.) I admit that I cannot say the same about some of the others, though I do enjoy bringing back Thomas of Bath from time to time. But by the name itself, and as you know me personally, Allen Leighson was/is my conduit to insert myself in the story. I'm not saying that I am anything like him. Yet when conceived, I wanted him to be a bit of that fly on the wall witnessing this history and quite often drawn along by it. And he has come a long way. I'm really happy that his journey has been appreciated as much as any of these real historical people.

Margaret is in a terrible position... Excellent! On the other hand, this move does reduce some of Richard's casus belli against Scotland...

Is the King of France excommunicated? He's apparently "cut off from the Holy Church"...

Was the Henry at the end the ex-king, calling Margaret out on cuckolding him? If so, why doesn't he make that public and try to return to England?
As @Rensslaer suggests below, it is Rene d'Anjou that is excommunicated. For reasons only the Pope knows. But he is a fascinating character that I chose early on NOT to focus on because there were so many others. We've seen him once in the story and may well again since Margaret is headed back to France/Provence/Anjou.

And indeed, that is Henry the ex-King. I know the names can be confusing. Right now there are three Henry's circling Margaret at the moment - Henry the King, Henry Beaufort aka Somerset and now Henry Holland/Duke of Exeter. Damn these English that have no creativity in naming. ;)

Good on you for seeing that Henry was ever so slightly calling out his wife. Yet he is, as ever, too weak to actually make that public. And frankly, what good would that do for him? To most in England, he abandoned them and they now accept Richard as King. Henry might have earlier but he did not. Now? That would be too little, too late.

I think it's Rene of Anjou, Margaret's father, who's excommunicated.

And yes, Henry was calling her out. :D

Rensslaer
Precisely.


To all - That was fun!! I encourage anyone, should they wish, to look deeply at the work if they are so inclined. It has taken me the better part of these last almost three years to write and I have grown to really care about these characters. I could not have done it without all of you, the readers and commenters! Thank you!

I feel compelled to reiterate what finally got me off the pot to write this. I conceived it back in 2007. Started it even and the first six or so posts are from then. But in 2021 (January 3rd exactly) I lost my very best friend since we were 12 years old. He was then (and remains now even if dead) 4 days older than me. I had completed the four books that comprise the Wessex saga (in my signature) and had rested for a bit but I wanted to write again and in many ways, working on this was therapy. Our birthdays are in March and that is when I started this. I miss him like crazy and I won't deny that some of what I write here is slightly autobiographical. Not specifically, but that dynamic. Be it family, friends, ideas of politics or relationships...I include it here as buried just as much as I bury the game. I am certainly fascinated by the history but truly when I began this, I wanted to look at relationships...people. Humans. How could something like this happen? Not just root causes (of which there are many) but what compelled them to act this way? Motivations.

I have spent the better part of these almost three years trying to figure that out both for my friend and his death (and sadly another just this year in March after I turned 50) and writing this, while it answers no questions (or few) allows me to explore that human nature that might cause a weak King to remain weak or a reluctant Lord to commit treason and steal the crown (though many would say, he deserved it and is the right man for the job.) What makes a Margaret of Anjou or a Margaret Beaufort for that matter? What makes any of them to do anything? Of everything that I have ever written here this really is the most personal story. Their lives and mine have few things in common, but my attempt to explore them as people has colored it the entire way. I hope that comes across and makes them real.

Next scene comes in a moment and I will add an opening screen we've already seen to remind...

(Also...vote in the YAYAs!)
 
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Dijon, Burgundy, November 1462

François de Valois was eight and ten. He was tall and handsome unlike his father Louis called Le Dauphin. His lineage was pristine. One grandfather still ruled as the King of France such as he might. The other was King James I of Scotland through his mother, Margaret of Scotland. This also allowed him a Beaufort descendant as James I married Joan Beaufort and bore him seven children. Thus he was proud, but also brittle as he was not close with his father. Especially after his mother died and Louis married Charlotte of Savoy.

On this day, he was even more so. His father Louis had just died leaving him in the unenviable position as the new heir to the French throne. France was troubled and ruled by a nearly sixty year old non-entity. Also a man that he had never met. After a quarrel with his father’s mistress Agnès Sorel in which it was said that Louis on one occasion drove her with a bared sword into Charles' bed, the Dauphin fled and never spoke to his father the King ever again.

Between Savoy and Burgundy, Louis had found his security while always waiting for the moment that he might become King of France himself. Yet a sore on his leg refused to heal, and the infection in it caused a serious fever. Delirious, Louis began to call for his father and there was little that François might do. Charles VII of France would not come to his son’s bedside.

Finally Louis’ physicians concluded that he would not live past October. Ill and weary, le Dauphin became delirious, convinced that he was surrounded by traitors loyal only to his father. Under the pressure of sickness and fever, he went mad. By now another infection in his jaw had caused an abscess in his mouth. The swelling caused by this became so large that, for the last week of his life, Louis was unable to swallow food or water. He eventually starved to death.

François had watched it all.

He sat by the hearth and looked to the flames trying to make sense of it all. By the beat of a heart, he might himself now become King of France. Yet what worth was it? He lived here to the flower of Burgundy and they were ascendant. So too Champagne. His only friend was the King of Burgundy, Charles. And he did not know what to think of him now. He was about to find out.

“You brood,” Charles suggested as he entered the hall and found young François in his thoughts.

Looking up, François tried to smile, “I cannot believe that he is gone, monsieur. I cannot say that I loved him...yet he was my father.”

“I know that feeling well,” Charles answered as he sat close and looked to the young man deeply, “Reverence and respect are not the same thing. I did not hate my father, for he was not a terrible man, yet I did not always agree with him. I am not glad that he is dead...yet I am happy to be King. And so it goes, monsieur.”

François pondered and answered, “I do not think that I am ready to be a King.”

“Then you are in luck, mon jeune seigneur,” Charles offered a slight smile, “For it is unlikely that you will find that any day soon. Your grandfather, though not robust, shows no signs of leaving us in the near future. So you must resign yourself to the pleasures of this court until that day. Unless you would wish to go back?”

“What would I find there?” François questioned.

Charles dipped his head, “Likely not much. Your grandfather le Roi is not in any better place than his realm. France as a notion is lost, monsieur. We are all Kings now and I fear this thought hastened your father’s death. Yet what will you do with it?”

“I will mourn,” François answered.

Charles held a hand to his knee, “Yet what else will you do?”

“I...I do not know,” the new Dauphin replied, “My step-mother is to Savoy with her children and my siblings, and...I care not for her anyway. Yet I feel lost. Ma mère...she has been gone a long time and...”

“Your father has left you also,” the Burgundian King held closer, “So let me be your kin. Ta famille. You need only ask and I will give it to you.”

François pushed away and stood to the hearth, “Why are you at war with Savoy?”

“Ludovico di Savoia is excommunicate,” Charles answered plainly, “And also...I hold some ideas.”

The young man looked to the flames for awhile before turning, “I have an idea of your idea. Savoy neighbors us to the south. Yet why would you war with the father of my step-mother? If you were so close to my father.”

Charles smiled and stood to find a cabinet. He fished around for a moment until he found what he was looking for. It was a large map of Europe and Burgundy’s place in it. He unfurled it over the floor and stepped to the edge of the canvas, “This is us, monsieur. Both of us. My realm is broken by d’Albert in Champagne. It is an odd fact that I helped him gain this, but there you are. To my north sits Flanders. I am not afeared of them. Yet to the south lies Savoy. And they have grown large. Too large. Likely because your grandfather cannot do much of anything with his wayward vassals. We are not that anymore.”

“And so France is well and truly lost,” François looked to the map with some sadness.

The King of Burgundy answered with care, “It may be repaired, monsieur. Not as powerful...yet a force. This is why I have kept your father to my court and still invite you.”

“Yet you do not truly answer for Savoy,” François pointed, “They should be an ally. Toulouse is a Republic and the south is awash in petty princes.”

“And Orleans and Alençon remain de Valois,” Charles replied, “Even Provence. Who might think that Rene would last so long?”

François answered quickly, “Very well. Then why do you not go to them rather than Savoy?”

“We...” Charles began to answer but stopped and moved to pour a cup of wine. He swirled it around for a moment before continuing, “We would remain family.”

“That is an answer that you would give to a diplomat,” François countered, “I am not that but rather the heir to the French throne. The very one you might wish for yourself. So why Savoy?”

Charles drank down the rest of his wine and sat the cup aside, “You are smart...like your father. A quick wit. Yet you have much to learn about politique, monsieur. When you look at this map, you will see one glaring thing. The presence of the English. They hold to the south in Bordeaux and keep to Normandy. And now there is a new King...”

“I thought that we would welcome him,” François suggested.

Charles moved to a settle by the fire, “I’ve met him...once. I must say that I preferred the son. Rest in God’s peace, the poor Comte de March. Yet I do not trust them. On a day, I wished to be matched with this King’s daughter. Alas, she was too young. No matter. I found my bride and have my daughter Mary. Whom you should consider...”

“She is hardly five in age, monsieur.”

The King laughed, “That is fair enough. Yet a good match for she is my only heir at the now.”

“You play at pieces,” François replied, “And I am not so unlearned in politique. If my future is to France then I must claim it for mine own. Every part. North to south...west to east.”

Charles smiled again, “And that is where we shall meet. I hope always in partnership. Le mauvais vieux temps...those bad old days...let them be behind as we admonish Satan. Together we might clear this realm of the petty rulers and establish a France...and a Burgundy...to rival the old. Peace finally within this realm so that we might look to Toulouse...this republic...and mayhap even Brittany. All of these are to table...to that map. Yet we will not do so if England remains.”

“You did mention it...” the young Dauphin looked to the map, “...this daughter of York...this King of England. I believe her name is Margaret?”

“As so many are,” Charles gave nod of his head.

François considered it as he replied, “She is eight and ten, monsieur. The same as me. And I am told that she is comely. Would it not be better for me to marry the daughter of the King of England?”

“If you wish this King Richard to rule your life,” Charles answered, “Look you just to the plight of his first son in law. The man is attained and runs for his life. I think he is to Anjou now and the little protection Rene might provide. Very little.”

The young Dauphin questioned, “I had thought you friendly to this regime….these so called Yorkists.”

“You asked me why I invade Savoy,” Charles replied as he stood and warmed his hands to the fire, “So I shall tell you. I did love my father and he taught me at least one thing. Trust no one. Your step-mother Charlotte? A fine Lady as I know her. Yet her father encroaches. He must be stopped and your own father agreed. We two hold kingdoms...you will. Every single one will wish to take your land...find a claim. We are human. We wish it all. Yet I see it and I must act. My father is dead and I am King. With proud heritage as well. I would see Lotharingia resurrected, monsieur. L'empire du milieu. That is my goal...my wish. You must ask yourself...what is yours?”

François skewed an eye, “Then you would look to the west...or to the low countries. I am educated, monsieur. I know my history. If you hold an enemy it is not Savoy. It is Champagne.”

“It is...the English,” Charles replied, “I may handle all of these. Bourbon...Orleans...even Champagne...the Empire. Yet these English may not be trusted. I know it well. All of these years this Lord of Warwick makes promises. It is never followed. There was a time when the side of England meant something. A cudgel to France. Yet those days are over...I am sorry for you. It is a new world and yet the Earl of Warwick still lies. The King of England has taken his seat and he will never let it go. He will want Normandy and more...he will want France.”

The young Dauphin questioned, “Then why should I not marry his daughter? Help to alleviate the tensions.”

“Your are not hearing me, monsieur,” Charles answered with a serious face, “This King Richard will not be content with a France beholden to him as you would be if you became his son in law. If you fall into bed with his daughter, you will lose France. I assure you. As it happened to King Charles VI, it would happen to you as well.”

“Then what am I to do?” François questioned.

Charles allowed a slight smile, “I’ve told you already. You should match with mine own daughter Mary. Yet that is a choice that only you may make. Your father made it so that you need not answer to your grandfather the King of France. So you’ve that rare opportunity...to choose your own future. Yet I would warn you in all ways...stay clear of England. Of this Warwick. Of this King Richard III. They are poison, monsieur. And they will kill you.”
 
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Missed a few so some catchup.

- Good to see de Vere get his just desserts, not even for his actions but the stupid way he went about it. Even at the end and his refusal to admit the obvious, being a martyr for a cause is one thing, but being a martyr for Henry is baffling.

- Richard and Warwick continuing to drift apart. Seems a bit out of character from Richard to be honest, but then grief can do all sorts of things to people so perhaps not so strange. Richard's inability to prioritise however very much is in character. You can make an argument that hitting France now while it is a confused mess is the best plan and Scotland can wait, not sure I agree but it is at least arguable. Trying to fight everyone at once because you can't pick an option is just bad leadership.

- Scotland, where James is proving to be surprisingly competent. I mean the bar for that is very low if you are called King James of Scotland but even so. Had Margaret been more competent she probably could have wangled a way to stay, but that is just not in her character. On which note one of the frustrating sparks of spine from Henry, showing what could have been if he could just sustain the effort.

The idea of the two Henry's going on a buddy movie journey together appeals immensely. Hustle a bit of money out of King James and then they can go off on a pilgrimage and have all sorts of japes as they journey across Europe and the Holy Land.

- France, where the golden prospect of a world without a unified French state continues to shimmer in the distance. Just imagine how much better human civilisation would be in such a utopia. Naturally I am cheering on Charles in his wish for Lotharingia, combine that with Richard getting his wish about Normandy and we might see the nightmare of France banished.

One last bit, I realise Francois is an idiot and so outwitting him is not much of a feat, but I am impressed by Charles. To warn someone about the dangers of being under the thumb of others, while at the same time encouraging them to willingly put themselves further under your own thumb takes some doing.
 
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Naturally I am cheering on Charles in his wish for Lotharingia, combine that with Richard getting his wish about Normandy and we might see the nightmare of France banished.

It's an interesting twist. The United low countries with no France and the OTL HRE is in a fascinating and good postion. Very urbanised, highly educated, very good at sailing and trade. They'll do better than OTL during the renaissance and Enlightenment, meaning an even bigger and better Dutch golden age.

Probably be a big colonial player faster and for longer...provided Germany doesn't happen or France doesn't unite again. If Germany or France does happen again though, the country is doomed.

As for England...well, holding Normandy and flanders would be good for trade and prestige but otherwise it just commits England to conquering all of France or spend the rest of time Defending their French lands from someone else. Expensive, arguably pointless and certainly not as good a return on investment as annexing the entire British Isles and becoming a fully independent island empire..
 
A large Franco-Burgundian Union might be a good rival to England... it's something that Richard should attempt to avoid at all costs. Will he ally with the other realms in what was once France if that marriage goes through?

A world without France would eventually lead to a very different history... but such things are probably outside of the purview of this AAR.

Will this alternate conflict reach the Reformation, though? Or will its length be similar to OTL's Wars of the Roses?
 
The idea of the two Henry's going on a buddy movie journey together appeals immensely. Hustle a bit of money out of King James and then they can go off on a pilgrimage and have all sorts of japes as they journey across Europe and the Holy Land.
: ROFL:

An interesting look at political thinking from the other side.

Of course Charles may be playing false with Francois as easily as with York.

This world could still go so many different ways. Wondering what kind of spin Richard is going to put on things.

Rensslaer
 
Henry pissing off to the holy land on pilgrimage for the next 10 years is the best idea he's ever come up with. I wish he'd done that 10 years ago, leaving Richard as regent.
 
Fb-fb:

Missed a few so some catchup.

- Good to see de Vere get his just desserts, not even for his actions but the stupid way he went about it. Even at the end and his refusal to admit the obvious, being a martyr for a cause is one thing, but being a martyr for Henry is baffling.
One could call it honor, but if that's the case he should have fled with her.

- Richard and Warwick continuing to drift apart. Seems a bit out of character from Richard to be honest, but then grief can do all sorts of things to people so perhaps not so strange. Richard's inability to prioritise however very much is in character. You can make an argument that hitting France now while it is a confused mess is the best plan and Scotland can wait, not sure I agree but it is at least arguable. Trying to fight everyone at once because you can't pick an option is just bad leadership.
I think as regards Richard and Warwick, he has for some time become irritated by Warwick's too high sense of self. Even before Richard became King.

- Scotland, where James is proving to be surprisingly competent. I mean the bar for that is very low if you are called King James of Scotland but even so. Had Margaret been more competent she probably could have wangled a way to stay, but that is just not in her character. On which note one of the frustrating sparks of spine from Henry, showing what could have been if he could just sustain the effort.
I agree with you. Those small moments when Henry shows any type of strength are so few and fleeting.

The idea of the two Henry's going on a buddy movie journey together appeals immensely. Hustle a bit of money out of King James and then they can go off on a pilgrimage and have all sorts of japes as they journey across Europe and the Holy Land.
Damn you, Pip!! Now I have to re-write the entire rest of the story! I could cast Bob Hope and Bing Crosby...The Road to Jerusalem. :D

- France, where the golden prospect of a world without a unified French state continues to shimmer in the distance. Just imagine how much better human civilisation would be in such a utopia. Naturally I am cheering on Charles in his wish for Lotharingia, combine that with Richard getting his wish about Normandy and we might see the nightmare of France banished.

One last bit, I realise Francois is an idiot and so outwitting him is not much of a feat, but I am impressed by Charles. To warn someone about the dangers of being under the thumb of others, while at the same time encouraging them to willingly put themselves further under your own thumb takes some doing.
It is no given that Charles will be able to get his wish, but he will likely continue to be able to play Francois.

It's an interesting twist. The United low countries with no France and the OTL HRE is in a fascinating and good postion. Very urbanised, highly educated, very good at sailing and trade. They'll do better than OTL during the renaissance and Enlightenment, meaning an even bigger and better Dutch golden age.

Probably be a big colonial player faster and for longer...provided Germany doesn't happen or France doesn't unite again. If Germany or France does happen again though, the country is doomed.

As for England...well, holding Normandy and flanders would be good for trade and prestige but otherwise it just commits England to conquering all of France or spend the rest of time Defending their French lands from someone else. Expensive, arguably pointless and certainly not as good a return on investment as annexing the entire British Isles and becoming a fully independent island empire..
Perhaps not the smartest play on Richard's part, but he is thinking as much about the past as the future as regards Normandy and France.

A large Franco-Burgundian Union might be a good rival to England... it's something that Richard should attempt to avoid at all costs. Will he ally with the other realms in what was once France if that marriage goes through?

A world without France would eventually lead to a very different history... but such things are probably outside of the purview of this AAR.

Will this alternate conflict reach the Reformation, though? Or will its length be similar to OTL's Wars of the Roses?
There is no doubt that one of England's goals is to keep the various areas of France as apart as possible. Especially as it appears that he has lost Burgundy as an ally.

: ROFL:

An interesting look at political thinking from the other side.

Of course Charles may be playing false with Francois as easily as with York.

This world could still go so many different ways. Wondering what kind of spin Richard is going to put on things.

Rensslaer
Now that things have somewhat calmed down on the Island, we will see a bit more from continental players.

Henry pissing off to the holy land on pilgrimage for the next 10 years is the best idea he's ever come up with. I wish he'd done that 10 years ago, leaving Richard as regent.
Well...the best idea that @El Pip came up with, and when has Henry ever listened to Pip? ;)


To all - Look a little later in the day for the next update. Moving right along with the chapter. Thanks again for reading and giving comment!
 
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Westminster, December 1462

Richard sat to the high table as the Christmastide feast rang out within the hall. There was not a man, woman or child that would miss it and certainly not these Lords. More so, they were honored by the Castilian ambassador Alfonso de Palencia as the man made great pains to say to all how much King Enrique wished to be there. Yet the King himself had been sly. Cecily told her husband that this man should be received, yet Richard caused him to wait for a full audience. More than once.

The ambassador instead tried to greet the others at the feast and found great charm in Edmund, now Prince of England and his young friends. One was John Mowbray, now called the 4th Duke of Norfolk. Just two years younger than the Prince, he was much a wit like his father before him. The other was John de la Pole, the 2nd Duke of Suffolk. Suffolk was married to Edmund’s younger sister Elizabeth but he and the Duke were the same age.

Since the ascension of Richard to the crown, these had become Edmund’s finest companions and almost made up for the loss of his older brother. Nothing could ever take the place of Edward’s memory, but to have someone so close in age...and trusting. The Prince enjoyed them and they enjoyed him. Alfonso de Palencia could clearly see it and tried to join their circle even as he was older.

“My Lord Prince...” de Palencia smiled as he approached, “...though your father the King be ever so silent, I should be well met with you I hope.”

Edmund dipped his head slightly with a smile, “I would know little reason why we should not be, Your Excellency. You honor us with your presence during this season.”

“I should not miss it,” Alfonso showed pleasure, “It is to my good favor that I am invited. Yet why will the King not see me?”

“I would not dare to guess,” Edmund answered as he looked to his friends with question, “Yet he does hold many things to mind at the now.”

The Duke of Norfolk followed, “Indeed, sir. The whore of France remains at large and causes a restlessness.”

“Yet surely your father the King would hold no worry over this,” the ambassador suggested, “It is said that she has been thrown out of Scotland for one King would honor another as mine does for your own.”

Edmund answered with sureness, “It remains a question, Your Excellency. My father dislikes such nits and niggles. I should not have to remind you that there are many that might try and take advantage of such unknowns.”

“Yet not for my master, my Lord Prince...” de Palencia allowed a bow, “...for he remains steadfast in his love. Part the reason for my progress to here is to make certain that this love is returned in kind.”

Edmund smiled once more, “I may assure you that it is. I am certain that the King would receive you in good time and I will suggest it to him.”

“I am most thankful,” the ambassador bowed again before moving back into the crowded hall.

The Duke of Suffolk looked after him, “It is curious, Ed. I was to understand that the King wished for great relations with Castile. Why would he shun this man?”

“He wishes to keep his options open,” the Prince moved to refresh his wine.

Norfolk grinned, “Do you not mean your options?”

Edmund turned with a sadness, “I fear that I am not allowed an option. Papa wants this match with Castile and yet my cousin continues to press for a French bride for some reason.”

John de la Pole tried to recall, “How old is this Isabella?”

“I think barely half a score,” Norfolk answered, “A mere babe still. Yet she will grow.”

Edmund considered it, “True. Yet I think not to wait. My sisters already find issue...Annie and Lillbet at least. You have your own, John. I near to twenty.”

“You need not marriage, sir,” Norfolk poked to his ribs, “Not to find what you desire. Your brother was rather famous for his exploits.”

“I be not Ned,” Edmund remembered him, “He was rather too free with many a thing. I hold more to my father’s cautiousness.”

Suffolk could see the sadness in him, “You don’t have to be Ned, sir. Nor even your father. I am certainly not mine and thanks be to God for that. Is it not time for you to be your own man? Cut your own path?”

“I am the spare made first,” Edmund answered after taking a drink, “I imagine my brother George more wishing of it and he is but three and ten. Perhaps even Dickon as he follows father so closely. I have always been the dutiful son and I must remain as such. Yet...I do have an eye.”

“For someone in particular?” Norfolk questioned.

“In truth...yes,” Edmund replied, “And she is quite comely.”

Suffolk leaned in with a whisper, “Who is it?”

“I should not say,” the Prince answered, “Yet I may tell you that were Ned here, he would surely be pursuing. He mentioned her more than once.”

Norfolk allowed a laugh, “You speak of Lord Rivers’ daughter! Dabbling in Lancastrian waters, sir?”

“You would hold quiet,” Edmund strongly suggested, “Little is known of it, yet she did come to me as many do to sound out my father. As the ambassador does, the Lady Grey begs for her own. She is a widow now and her father out of favor.”

“For very good reason,” Norfolk was quick to reply.

Suffolk was more diplomatic, “Though Lord Rivers found pardon, I would take a care, Ed. My mother says to me that the Duchess Jacquetta is a witch and may practice this evil craft with her daughter.”

“That’s nonsense, Johnny,” the younger Duke scoffed, “There be no such thing as a witch. Yet they are ambitious, this clan of Rivers. Were I you, my Lord Prince, I would stay clear of their manipulations.”

Edmund pressed, “As you do? Is that why you court Shrewsbury’s sister?”

“Why would I not?” Norfolk answered, “She is the daughter of the great Talbot, sir. Though her brother was a traitor and died of it at Northampton, that stink does not apply to the entire family.”

“I do not think that you can pick and choose,” Edmund replied, “My father wishes loyalty and I am no thing but that. I of all people. Yet Ned was not wrong. This Elizabeth...she is lovely. Too lovely, mayhap.”

Norfolk followed quickly, “All for purpose, to be sure. I could not fault a man for falling prey to the wiles of a woman, my friend. Yet hold careful steps. These people know that you are kind, my Lord Prince. Many would try and take advantage.”

“And she is older, sir,” Suffolk suggested, “With two sons at that. Would you not rather find a fresh face and your own brood?”

Edmund found consternation as he looked to his father the King when Richard stood to give a speech, “I must do what is allowed.”

“And this Isabella of Castile is royalty,” Suffolk answered.

Norfolk followed, “A fine match, Ed. Look to your future and not your loins. I may understand the latter, yet my father taught me to be careful.”

“It will be his choice,” Edmund pointed, “Just listen to him.”

Richard leaned heavily to the high table and Cecily attempted to assist him. He was in his cups which was rare and the King smiled, “My Lords...we’ve come round the bend and this river only flows to our future. We are blessed by Christ and so we do thank God Almighty and find our future in His grace. Drink and be merry for He has made it so!”

“I do not believe that I have ever seen your father in such state,” Suffolk suggested to Edmund.

The Prince allowed little smile, “He has never been so comforted. Yet the calm never does last.”
 
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