Tinto Maps #12 Germany Feedback

[Sulphurologist]

Only noticed it just now:
- Sint-Niklaas should not be part of the HRE (although Dendermonde seems to be included in the location, which wás in the HRE).
- Hulst was part of the 'Four labours' (Vier Ambachten), which isn't as big as the entire indicated Hulst Location. Nonetheless, the cities within the 'Four Labors' were definitely the most developed parts so are representative (keep it HRE).
- Tournai was part of the HRE, so if following the same logic for Hulst, could also be included in the HRE

(note: map on the right: dot of Oudenaarde is on the wrong side of the river, not part of the HRE)

 

[Elliot2142]

I'm quite late in asking this but why was the dynasty name for the duchy of Brabant changed from "van Reginar", like we can see in the original Germany Tinto Maps, to "Rheinhardszoon"?

I can't seem to find any sources, in any languages, using that name for the dynasty. Not even sure who is that "Reinhard" being referenced here. Is it supposed to be an alternative way to write "Reginar"? Because I can't seem to find it written like that.

I think it would be more logical to simply call the dynasty "van Brabant", the same way the dynasty of Hesse is called "von Hesse" by that point even though they also are descendants of the "Reginars". It would also seem more consistent with the naming of most of the other European dynasties. But going back to the use of "Reginar" seems already more logical than using "Reinhardszoon".

 

[matfer13]

In 1337 Verdun wasn't a free city yet, it was ruled by a bishop

 

[Mef]

So we haven't seen the fixed population yet, and this post is probably not going to have any influence whatsoever, but after I did the population map in the original thread, I decided to do some research and make an actual population suggestion map based on estimated population densities for the time period, if only to compare it with what the population numbers in the game end up looking like.

A lot of this is conjecture, I've also used actual estimates as references when possible, for example Brandenburg has been estimated to have had ~200k population and (modern borders of) Saxony ~300k population.
We can assume that population density dropped of a lot the further north and east you went, as those were regions that had been depopulated and settled fairly recently.
On the other hand, the heartlands of Medieval Germany were overpopulated (which contributed a lot to the Ostsiedlung), so this is where I concentrated most of the population.

Here's the list, with urban population (in cities of 5000 or more) listed as well. I've sorted it by population density

			km²	people/km²	Population	Urban Pop	Urbanization
A	Northern Rheinland	Very fertile, includes Germany's biggest city, densely populated and urbanized	7,297	60	437,819	67,000	15%
L	Rhein-Main	Very urbanized, fertile land along the rivers, important for trade	6,818	60	409,051	52,000	13%
C	Fertile Ruhr	Fertile, urbanzied, on important trade route	3,555	55	195,515	19,000	10%
M	Kraichgau, Neckar	Fertile and urbanized, used to be even more developed under the Staufer	7,828	55	430,533	25,000	6%
N	Upper Rhine Valley	Fertile, not super urbanized	6,138	40	245,520	15,000	6%
O	Alsace	Includes the Vosges, but fertile along the Rhine	8,911	38	338,634	20,000	6%
J	Magdeburg, Anhalt, Erfurt Basin	Fertile, urbanized, rich mining	21,000	36	756,000	56,000	7%
V	Northern Austria	Some fertile land along the Danube, includes Vienna and much of Austria's population	33,490	36	1,205,641	26,000	2%
W	Fertile Switzerland, Vorarlberg	Fertile Swiss Plateau, includes much of Switzerland's population	16,592	36	597,316	19,000	3%
D	Münsterland, Ostwestfalen, Osnabrück	Urbanized, but average fertility	12,757	34	433,753	32,000	7%
F	Angria from Celle to Kassel	Urbanized, but average fertility, rich from Harz mining	16,316	34	554,741	42,000	8%
Q	Bavaria, Franconia	Includes important cities like Nuremberg or Augsburg, average fertility	47,469	33	1,566,477	94,000	6%
B	Southern Rheinland	Hilly, forested, includes Koblenz and Trier, but rural character in general	17,410	28	487,471	11,000	2%
S	Northern Bohemia	Fertile, with rich mining and Prague	25,082	28	702,292	23,000	3%
P	Southern Swabia, Bavaria, Schwarzwald	Low fertility, agriculture focused on livestock	30,257	25	756,434	0	0%
U	Moravia	Fertile	20,741	25	518,535	21,000	4%
K	Mittelgebirge	Hilly woodland, with a few smaller towns, not the most inviting land to settle	32,915	24	789,972	6,000	1%
T	Southern Bohemia	Less fertile, less populated	30,740	22	676,289	9,000	1%
R	Bavarian Forest, Upper Palatinate	Hilly and forested, but important mining	16,793	20	335,860	0	0%
E	Lower Saxony	Low fertility, low development on the coast, only trade cities are notable	32,720	18	588,954	21,000	4%
G	Schleswig-Holstein, Hamburg	Not very developed or fertile, but some important trade cities	17,651	16	282,416	32,000	11%
Y	Saxony	Had a mining boom and some fertile land, most of the population were recent immigrants	30,500	16	488,000	16,000	3%
X	Alps	Mountainous, not a lot of land to settle, sparsely populated	71,865	13	934,240	10,000	1%
H	Mecklenburg, Pomerania	Only the coastal cities are notable (and there are some sizeable ones), the hinterland is mostly undeveloped and not fertile	30,100	9	270,900	26,000	10%
I	Brandenburg	Relatively recently settled region, forested, not densely populated	36,500	7	255,500	5,000	2%

The totals are ~9.3 million for Germany, ~1.9 million for Czechia, ~1.9 million for Austria and ~800k for Switzerland.

 

[Inzano]

So we haven't seen the fixed population yet, and this post is probably not going to have any influence whatsoever, but after I did the population map in the original thread, I decided to do some research and make an actual population suggestion map based on estimated population densities (most sources tend to give the same ranges which I've used) for the time period.

Here's the map (this time it's green to red, densest to least dense!):

View attachment 1280028

And here's the list:

	Region	Comment	km²	people/km²	Population
A	Northern Rheinland	Very fertile, includes Germany's biggest city, densely populated and urbanized	7297	28	204,315
B	Southern Rheinland	Hilly, forested, includes Koblenz and Trier, but rural character in general	17410	13	226,326
C	Fertile Ruhr	Fertile, urbanzied, on important trade route	3555	25	88,871
D	Münsterland, Ostwestfalen, Osnabrück	Urbanized, but average fertility	12757	15	191,362
E	Lower Saxony	Low fertility, low development on the coast, only trade cities are notable	32720	9	294,477
F	Angria from Celle to Kassel	Urbanized, but average fertility, rich from Harz mining	16316	15	244,739
G	Schleswig-Holstein, Hamburg	Not very developed or fertile, but some important trade cities	17651	9	158,859
H	Mecklenburg, Pomerania, Neumark	Only the coastal cities are notable, the hinterland is mostly undeveloped and not fertile	60617	7	424,322
I	Brandenburg, Altmark, Lusatia	Forested, not highly developed yet, nor urbanized	40475	8	323,797
J	Saxony, Anhalt, Erfurt Basin	Highly fertile, very urbanized, rich mining	37752	20	755,048
K	Mittelgebirge	Hilly woodland, with a few smaller towns, not the most inviting land to settle	32915	11	362,070
L	Rhein-Main	Very urbanized, fertile land along the rivers, important for trade	6818	27	184,073
M	Kraichgau, Neckar	Fertile and urbanized, used to be even more developed under the Staufer	7828	24	187,869
N	Upper Rhine Valley	Fertile, but not very urbanized	6138	20	122,760
O	Alsace	Includes the Vosges, but fertile along the Rhine	8911	19	169,317
P	Southern Swabia, Bavaria, Schwarzwald	Low fertility, agriculture focused on livestock	30257	12	363,088
Q	Bavaria, Franconia	Includes important cities like Nuremberg or Augsburg, average fertility	47469	16	759,504
R	Bavarian Forest, Upper Palatinate	Hilly and forested, but important mining	16793	11	184,723
S	Northern Bohemia	Fertile, with rich mining and Prague	25082	22	551,801
T	Southern Bohemia	Less fertile, less populated	30740	16	491,847
U	Moravia	Fertile and relatively urbanized	20741	19	394,086
V	Northern Austria	Some fertile land along the Danube, includes Vienna and much of Austria's population	33490	20	669,801
W	Fertile Switzerland, Vorarlberg	Fertile Swiss Plateau, includes much of Switzerland's population	16592	16	265,474
X	Alps	Mountainous, not a lot of land to settle, sparsely populated	71865	6	431,188

The totals end up at around 5 million for Germany, 1.4 million for Czechia, 1 million for Austria and 360k for Switzerland which lines up with most estimates that I've seen.

I don't now where did you get the numbers but on this thread, you can see that the numbers are different. The territory of modern Austria should have at least 2 million population in 1337.

 

[Mef]

I don't now where did you get the numbers but on this thread, you can see that the numbers are different. The territory of modern Austria should have at least 2 million population in 1337.

I know that McEvedy and Rogers is the main source that Project Caesar uses, but their estimate for pre-Black Death Germany at 10 million is very high, and 25 people per km² for all of Austria in 1337 including the Alps sounds high - the estimated population density of Java that I posted in the Indonesia thread was 20 people per km².
It's basically double of the estimates I've used - which total to around 12 million population in the entire HRE.
That shows how there's very little actual data to base these estimates on, when they can have such a large range - 12 to 25 million for the HRE.

If McEvedy and Rogers are used everywhere to be consistent, then I guess the numbers in my map and table up there can just be doubled!
(I just edited my post to include a map with doubled values, so we can see the whole range)

 

[Aldaron]

We have detected that, not only Germany, but a few areas in Europe do have more people than they should, due to some malfunction of our tools that is now solved (the famous issues with the pop editor). These numbers will be corrected soon.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

We have detected that, not only Germany, but a few areas in Europe do have more people than they should, due to some malfunction of our tools that is now solved (the famous issues with the pop editor). These numbers will be corrected soon.

Is this is why you've delayed posting the pop maps for the recent feedback posts?

 

[Aldaron]

As @Pavía has already explained several times, yes.

 

[KingLouie]

So we haven't seen the fixed population yet, and this post is probably not going to have any influence whatsoever, but after I did the population map in the original thread, I decided to do some research and make an actual population suggestion map based on estimated population densities for the time period.
Edit: Since the population estimates for this time vary so much, and Project Caesar seems to want to stick to a certain estimate to be consistent, I made another map and table where the values are doubled! The actual population in the game should probably be somewhere in this range, and whenever we get the numbers I'll compare them to my map.
Edit2: I also included an estimation of urban population for each region, based on the table in my previous post in this thread.

Here's the map (this time it's green to red, densest to least dense!):

View attachment 1280131

View attachment 1280132

Here's the list:

	Region	Comment	Area	Lower End		Upper End			Urbanization
			km²	people/km²	Population	people/km²	Population	Urban Pop	Lower	Upper
A	Northern Rheinland	Very fertile, includes Germany's biggest city, densely populated and urbanized	7,297	28	204,315	56	408,631	100,000	49%	24%
B	Southern Rheinland	Hilly, forested, includes Koblenz and Trier, but rural character in general	17,410	13	226,326	26	452,651	28,000	12%	6%
C	Fertile Ruhr	Fertile, urbanzied, on important trade route	3,555	25	88,871	50	177,741	36,000	41%	20%
D	Münsterland, Ostwestfalen, Osnabrück	Urbanized, but average fertility	12,757	15	191,362	30	382,724	50,000	26%	13%
E	Lower Saxony	Low fertility, low development on the coast, only trade cities are notable	32,720	9	294,477	18	588,954	35,000	12%	6%
F	Angria from Celle to Kassel	Urbanized, but average fertility, rich from Harz mining	16,316	15	244,739	30	489,478	55,000	22%	11%
G	Schleswig-Holstein, Hamburg	Not very developed or fertile, but some important trade cities	17,651	9	158,859	18	317,718	45,000	28%	14%
H	Mecklenburg, Pomerania, Neumark	Only the coastal cities are notable (and there are some sizeable ones), the hinterland is mostly undeveloped and not fertile	60,617	7	424,322	14	848,643	43,000	10%	5%
I	Brandenburg, Altmark, Lusatia	Relatively recently settled region, forested, not highly developed, nor urbanized	40,475	8	323,797	16	647,594	37,000	11%	6%
J	Saxony, Anhalt, Erfurt Basin	Highly fertile, urbanized, rich mining	37,752	20	755,048	40	1,510,096	134,000	18%	9%
K	Mittelgebirge	Hilly woodland, with a few smaller towns, not the most inviting land to settle	32,915	11	362,070	22	724,141	37,000	10%	5%
L	Rhein-Main	Urbanized, fertile land along the rivers, important for trade	6,818	27	184,073	54	368,146	68,000	37%	18%
M	Kraichgau, Neckar	Fertile and urbanized, used to be even more developed under the Staufer	7,828	24	187,869	48	375,738	40,000	21%	11%
N	Upper Rhine Valley	Fertile, but not very urbanized	6,138	20	122,760	40	245,520	16,000	13%	7%
O	Alsace	Includes the Vosges, but fertile along the Rhine	8,911	19	169,317	38	338,634	no data
P	Southern Swabia, Bavaria, Schwarzwald	Low fertility, agriculture focused on livestock	30,257	12	363,088	24	726,176	17,000	5%	2%
Q	Bavaria, Franconia	Includes important cities like Nuremberg or Augsburg, average fertility	47,469	16	759,504	32	1,519,008	119,000	16%	8%
R	Bavarian Forest, Upper Palatinate	Hilly and forested, but important mining	16,793	11	184,723	22	369,446	9,000	5%	2%
S	Northern Bohemia	Fertile, with rich mining and Prague	25,082	22	551,801	44	1,103,602	39,000	7%	4%
T	Southern Bohemia	Less fertile, less urbanized	30,740	16	491,847	32	983,693	9,000	2%	1%
U	Moravia	Fertile and relatively urbanized	20,741	19	394,086	38	788,173	31,000	8%	4%
V	Northern Austria	Some fertile land along the Danube, includes Vienna and much of Austria's population	33,490	20	669,801	40	1,339,602	41,000	6%	3%
W	Fertile Switzerland, Vorarlberg	Fertile Swiss Plateau, includes much of Switzerland's population	16,592	16	265,474	32	530,948	57,000	21%	11%
X	Alps	Mountainous, not a lot of land to settle, sparsely populated	71,865	6	431,188	12	862,375	19,000	4%	2%

The totals are around 5-10 million for Germany, 1.4-2.8 million for Czechia, 1-2 million for Austria and 360k-720k for Switzerland.

For Switzerland, this seems quite low as well. It is estimated that in 1300 there were between 700k and 850k living in modern day Switzerland's borders, with an ongoing growth til the middle of that century. According to the Historical Dictionary of Switzerland.

 

[Mef]

For Switzerland, this seems quite low as well. It is estimated that in 1300 there were between 700k and 850k living in modern day Switzerland's borders, with an ongoing growth til the middle of that century. According to the Historical Dictionary of Switzerland.

That's interesting, the estimate does mostly align with the upper end of my numbers, but what I'm particularly interested in are the urbanization percentages given. We do have a dataset of cities with at least 5000 population in 1300, so that allows us to calculate the total population estimates they used.

For Switzerland, they say that the population in cities >= 5000, which would be Basel (7000), Lausanne (6000) and Zürich (6000), is less than 3%, which suggests the total population was at least 655k.
For Germany, it gives a surprisingly exact number of 7.9%, so the 519 000 people that lived in cities of 5000 or more would translate to a total German population of 6.57 million which is on the low end.
In France, the city population was 853 000 which, at 8%, translates to a total population of 10.66 million, which is also lower than most estimates I've seen.
In Italy, the city population of 1 466 000 and a percentage of 20.8% translates to a total population of 7 million which is also well below the usual estimates.

Obviously rounding errors and smaller inaccuracies make the final numbers quite imprecise here (on top of the general "nobody has any actual data"), which is why I'm surprised that they give such precise numbers for urbanization in the first place. I'd be interested in where these come from. Switzerland also seems to be the only country with its estimate at the upper end.

In any case, I did update my post above since I settled on a single estimate now that should be pretty good I think, it's actually very similar by country to the original population (except for Germany which was bugged), just distributed more according to what you'd expect, not placing most of Austria's population inside the Alps.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

Maybe I'm wrong but shouldn't Bar be both a french vassal and HRE member in 1337? It doesn't seem like the county's status changed except for being elevated to a duchy and as such should be an more like (as far as the HRE map is conserned) Valentinois is, an HRE member which holds land outside the HRE.

 

[phantasmAgaric]

Maybe I'm wrong but shouldn't Bar be both a french vassal and HRE member in 1337? It doesn't seem like the county's status changed except for being elevated to a duchy and as such should be an more like (as far as the HRE map is conserned) Valentinois is, an HRE member which holds land outside the HRE.

So Bar is split between two parts: Barrios mouvant in the south around the town of Bar, which in 1301 became subject to France, and Barrois immouvant in the north, which remained a fief of the HRE, and was not a subject of France. So while it's a French vassal and an HRE member, it's never both at the same time!

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

So Bar is split between two parts: Barrios mouvant in the south around the town of Bar, which in 1301 became subject to France, and Barrois immouvant in the north, which remained a fief of the HRE, and was not a subject of France. So while it's a French vassal and an HRE member, it's never both at the same time!

Right but that's not really represented here, instead Bar is a french vassal occupying HRE land. Given that the only way to represent the historical reality would be with two somehow interlinked tags (PU between the two Bars?) and I can't see that working, Bar as an HRE member which is also a french vassal seems like the best arrangement.

 

[Karl I]

Is there any particular reason why you decided to go with the "Danube Bavarian" culture? Wouldn't it be easier to just divide Bavarian and Austrian?

 

[Inzano]

Is there any particular reason why you decided to go with the "Danube Bavarian" culture? Wouldn't it be easier to just divide Bavarian and Austrian?

Dialects are the reason, that's why we also have South Bavarian culture.

 

[Karl I]

Dialects are the reason, that's why we also have South Bavarian culture.

Austrian and Bavarian dialect are different, soo is Tyrolean and Viennese

 

[Inzano]

Austrian and Bavarian dialect are different, soo is Tyrolean and Viennese

I assume they used this division:

 

[tig1337]

First of all awesome that you added Oppenheim as a location.
However I am unsure why it's owned by the Palatinate at the start date. Around this time period Oppenheim was property of the imperial crown which was mortgaged (verpfändet) multiple times and to multiple people. At the time of 1337 it was mortgaged to the Archbishop of Mainz. In 1353 the Emperor actually paid the outstanding money and regained "ownership" of the town (would be a cool event to spawn Oppenheim as an independent imperial city by paying some ducats). It was only pledged/mortgaged/verpfändet to the Palatinate a few years later on and then eventually became a proper part of the Palatinate.

So in my opinion it makes no sense to have the location be owned by the Palatinate. It should rather be owned by Mainz or be an independent imperial city.

Oppenheim's German Wikipedia page cites Versuch einer vollständigen Geographisch-Historischen Beschreibung der Kurfürstl. Pfalz am Rheine from Johann Goswin Widder (1787) as a source, which is available on Google Books where the entire situation is described. (Wikipedia Source 11 links you the right part of the book)

 

[ibvfteh]

Nürnberg market was added