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I think Tamazight should be split into several languages that form a family.
Proto-Berber broke apart into different languages sometime between 600BC and 200AD (as evidenced by lots of Punic and a few Latin loanwords in reconstructed Proto-Berber). A good comparison would be Germanic, which broke apart around 200AD or a little earlier, yet is a language family instead of a single language.
This could then form a family called “Amazigh” to distinguish it from Tamazight language.

I think the different languages within the Amazigh family should be:
Tamazight (dialects: Tamazight and Shilha/Senhaja)
Zenati (dialects: Zenati and Shawi)
Kabyle? (this one is a bit too small and can be included as a dialect of Zenati, same as Lusatian is included with Czech-Slovak)
Tuareg
Eastern Berber
Edit: Guanche
Edit: Zenaga

(As pointed out later in the thread, Zenati and Kabyle can both be reasonably merged into Tamazight as well).
 
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purplephoton said:
I think the different languages within the Amazigh family should be:
Tamazight (dialects: Tamazight and Shilha/Senhaja)
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I agree with you, representing each dialect would be nice to implement.
You confused the word "Amazigh" and "Tamazight" it seems:

Imazighen are the people (sg. Amazigh) and their ethnicity.

Tamazight is the language spoken by the Imazighen.


I can add at least the dialects of Morocco, since I'm not well aware of other Tamazight languages within Algeria, Tunis and other countries.

Tachelhit, Tarifit, Central Atlas Tamazight are 3 examples (and variations) of the Tamazight language and spoken within Morocco.
Whilest Tarifit/Central Atlas Tamazight and Tachelhit cannot communicate with each other flawlessly, Tarifit and Central Atlas Tamazight can communicate good enough to understand each other.
Edit: Central Atlas Tamazight speakers understand Tachelhit definitely better than the Rifians do, so Central Atlas Tamazight speakers have a extremely higher compatibility with Tachelhit speakers.

Rif-Tamazight is also spoken in north-western Algeria, pretty close to the border between Morocco and Algeria, which variation I can't tell.
 
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ElReyVI said:
You confused the word "Amazigh" and "Tamazight" it seems:

Imazighen are the people (sg. Amazigh) and their ethnicity.

Tamazight is the language spoken by the Imazighen.


I can add at least the dialects of Morocco, since I'm not well aware of other Tamazight languages within Algeria, Tunis and other countries.

Tachelhit, Tarifit, Central Atlas Tamazight are 3 examples (and variations) of the Tamazight language and spoken within Morocco.
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Amazigh could also be the name of the culture group that includes all the Berbers. Tamazight would be the name of one language (Central Rif Tamazight)
 
purplephoton said:
Amazigh would be the name of the culture group that includes all the Berbers. Tamazight would be the name of one language (Central Rif Tamazight)
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Ah thanks for your clarification, sometimes I write a little bit reckless but I don't mean it in a bad way.

Do you mean with "Central Rif Tamazight" maybe "Central Atlas Tamazight"?
And if so, why exactly this variation?

Thanks for your response!
 
ElReyVI said:
Ah thanks for your clarification, sometimes I write a little bit reckless but I don't mean it in a bad way.

Do you mean with "Central Rif Tamazight" maybe "Central Atlas Tamazight"?
And if so, why exactly this variation?

Thanks for your response!
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Yeah I meant Central Atlas, was writing quickly, my bad.
 
matfer13 said:
View attachment 1241453
@Pavía Is the primary culture of Tlemcen Zenati? Otherwise I doubt that their court language was Berber and even then I'm pretty sure Arab was used more
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Well both the Zayyanids and Marinids were Amazigh dynasties. The Hafsids also had Amazigh origins but their lands were much more Arabized. It's true that Tamazight was never a written language of any significance in history, but I seem to recall reading that the Zayyanid rulers were not very arabized compared to the Marinids, and Tamazight remained the spoken language of the court. Unfortunately I can't recall where I read that, so if I find it I'll add it.
 
purplephoton said:
I think Tamazight should be split into several languages that form a family.
Proto-Berber broke apart into different languages sometime between 600BC and 200AD (as evidenced by lots of Punic and a few Latin loanwords in reconstructed Proto-Berber). A good comparison would be Germanic, which broke apart around 200AD or a little earlier, yet is a language family instead of a single language.
This could then form a family called “Amazigh” to distinguish it from Tamazight language.

I think the different languages within the Amazigh family should be:
Tamazight (dialects: Tamazight and Shilha/Senhaja)
Zenati (dialects: Zenati and Shawi)
Kabyle? (this one is a bit too small and can be included as a dialect of Zenati, same as Lusatian is included with Czech-Slovak)
Tuareg
Eastern Berber
Click to expand...
I think northern Berber/Tamazight is justifiable as a single language. Despite gaps in intelligibility today, they are closely related at the end of the day and seem to differ mostly by pronunciation, not grammar. Losing territory to Darija/Arabic and being fractured into little pockets here and there certainly has hurt the continuity of Tamazight dialects.

In my opinion, the most important to split off would be Tuareg, Eastern Berber, Western Berber (of Mauritania) and especially Guanche. If we are going to split off Zenati, I think Kabyle should be grouped with the dialects of inner Morocco as I understand there is more intelligibility between them than with the Zenati dialects which have undergone some significant sound shifts.
ElReyVI said:
I agree with you, representing each dialect would be nice to implement.
You confused the word "Amazigh" and "Tamazight" it seems:

Imazighen are the people (sg. Amazigh) and their ethnicity.

Tamazight is the language spoken by the Imazighen.


I can add at least the dialects of Morocco, since I'm not well aware of other Tamazight languages within Algeria, Tunis and other countries.

Tachelhit, Tarifit, Central Atlas Tamazight are 3 examples (and variations) of the Tamazight language and spoken within Morocco.
Whilest Tarifit/Central Atlas Tamazight and Tachelhit cannot communicate with each other flawlessly, Tarifit and Central Atlas Tamazight can communicate good enough to understand each other.

Rif-Tamazight is also spoken in north-western Algeria, pretty close to the border between Morocco and Algeria, which variation I can't tell.
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This is odd, I had a professor from Erfoud or Errachidia or somewhere around there who spoke its Shilha fluently and told me he could understand most dialects in Morocco except Riffians, telling me there is a "large linguistic distance between Riffian and Atlas Tamazight". I assume his dialect falls under the category of "Central Atlas Tamazight" and I saw him speak with a native of Azrou in Shilha without any problem. In fact now that I think about it I think he was able to understand the speech of Ourika too.
 
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nyetflix2 said:
This is odd, I had a professor from Erfoud or Errachidia or somewhere around there who spoke its Shilha fluently and told me he could understand most dialects in Morocco except Riffians, telling me there is a "large linguistic distance between Riffian and Atlas Tamazight". I assume his dialect falls under the category of "Central Atlas Tamazight" and I saw him speak with a lady in Azrou in Shilha without any problem.
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Interesting! I'm always amazed by different experiences.
In advance,. I speak Tarifit (Rif Tamazight) fluently and experienced many many linguistic differences in different regions.

Both Riffian Tamazight and Central Atlas Tamazight differ in pronounciation and vocabulary, definitely. But both dialects still have a great compatibility, high enough to ensure that both parties understand each other and got the message.

For me I have little problems to understand the Central Atlas Tamazight. Yes, some words and pronounciation differ, yet not so much to say that we cannot understand each other.
Your Professor is right that there is a linguistic distance, but not this extreme to say it's impossible to understand it.

The largest gap is between Tachelhit and Tarifit. People will understand only fractions of the things said, not enough to be able to understand the message, but also there, there are keywords that are used in both dialects, for example the word "road".

Edit: Yes, Central Atlas Tamazight speakers definitely understand Tachelhit way better than the Riffians. I mistakenly displayed it as "incompatible", I will correct it, but also there, there are small small differences.
 
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ElReyVI said:
Interesting! I'm always amazed by different experiences.
In advance,. I speak Tarifit (Rif Tamazight) fluently and experienced many many linguistic differences in different regions.

Both Riffian Tamazight and Central Atlas Tamazight differ in pronounciation and vocabulary, definitely. But both dialects still have a great compatibility, high enough to ensure that both parties understand each other and got the message.

For me I have little problems to understand the Central Atlas Tamazight. Yes, some words and pronounciation differ, yet not so much to say that we cannot understand each other.
Your Professor is right that there is a linguistic distance, but not this extreme to say it's impossible to understand it.

The largest gap is between Tachelhit and Tarifit. People will understand only fractions of the things said, not enough to be able to understand the message, but also there, there are keywords that are used in both dialects, for example the word "road".

Edit: Yes, Central Atlas Tamazight speakers definitely understand Tachelhit way better than the Riffians. I mistakenly displayed it as "incompatible", I will correct it, but also there, there are small small differences.
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Azul fellawen ou mamech tgit :) la bas ghourchen?

I don't know anything more than that myself (probably that one sentence is a frankenstein of dialects) but it's a cool language. Anyways, the Zenati dialects could be split off or not, but I think having all the main dialects of Morocco and Algeria as one language is defensible as the same logic applied to having (for instance) Arabic or German as one language.
 
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nyetflix2 said:
Azul fellawen ou mamech tgit :) la bas ghourchen?

I don't know anything more than that myself (probably that one sentence is a frankenstein of dialects) but it's a cool language. Anyways, the Zenati dialects could be split off or not, but I think having all the main dialects of Morocco and Algeria as one language is defensible as the same logic applied to having (for instance) Arabic or German as one language.
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Translated (as far as I understand it): "Hello how are you? Everythings great?"

I immediately noticed different pronounciations in "ghourchen" and if I'm not mistaken it means "everything/all", in Riffian it would pronounced "kuscheen".
"Fellawen" is unknown to me. Or maybe I'm unable to read it correctly.

I agree with you. The main dialects of Morocco and Algeria are close related and can be put into one language.
 
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Pavía said:
Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Maps Feedback post! A bit later than usual, but better late than never, I guess.Today we will be taking a review of the Maghreb. Let's start with the list of changes, as usual:

ADDITIONS

Added the following:
  • Locations (54+ 17 Lakes + lots Wastelands)
    • Afso
    • Aït Benhaddou
    • Aïn Madhi
    • Aït Daoud
    • Al Jamah
    • Al-Kadwa
    • Al-Khadra
    • Amdoukal
    • Azilal
    • Bejaâd
    • Berriane
    • Bir el Alter
    • Brézina
    • Charef
    • Charouine
    • Chenini
    • Chichaoua
    • Debila
    • Douz
    • Drâa
    • Echemmaia
    • El Abiodh Sidi Cheikh
    • El Agheila
    • El Ksour
    • Foum Zguid
    • Guettara
    • Ifrane
    • Igli
    • Jadu
    • Kallat Sraghna
    • Ksar el Boukhari
    • Medjez El Bab
    • Medrissa
    • Messaâd
    • Midelt
    • Nefta
    • N'Goussa
    • Ouled Djellal
    • Ras al-Ain
    • Ras Lanuf
    • Sbikha
    • Sidi Bennour
    • Sinawin
    • Taghit
    • Tarhuna
    • Tata
    • Tawurgha
    • Tegeget
    • Tekouch
    • Tissemsilt
    • Tissint
    • Tizounine
    • Yafran
    • Zintan
  • Lakes
    • Chott El Gharsah
    • Chott el Hodna
    • Chott Tinsilt
    • Lake Fetzara
    • Lake Ichkeul
    • Mellahet El Brega
    • Sebkhat Cherita
    • Sebkhat Guerrah Et Tarf
    • Sebkhat El Ghorra
    • Sebkhat El Melah
    • Sebkhat En Noual
    • Sebkhat Kelbia
    • Sebkhat of Oran
    • Sebkhat Sidi El Hani
    • Sebkhat Sokhna
    • Sebkhat Zehrez Chergui
    • Sebkhat Zehrez Gharbi
  • Wastelands
    • Divided many Wastelands into more pieces.
  • TAGs
    • Banu Tellis
    • Djerids
    • Gabès
    • Gafsa
    • Mzab
    • Ouargla
    • Tafilalt
    • Touggourt
    • Zab
  • Characters
    • btl_ahmad_bin_tellis
    • btl_ali_bin_ahmad
    • btl_ali_bin_galib
    • btl_galib_bin_ali
    • fza_ali_nasur
    • gbs_makki
    • gbs_ahmed_ibn_makki
    • mor_abu_ali_omar
    • trp_muhammad_ibn_thabit
    • trp_thabit_ibn_ammar
    • trp_thabit_ibn_muhammad
    • zab_ahmad_bin_yusuf
    • zab_al_fadl_bin_ali_bin_ahmed_bin_al_hassan_bin_ali_bin_muzni
    • zab_mansur_bin_fadl
    • zab_yusuf_bin_mansur
  • Dynamic Names
    • Added some Dynamic Names for Arabic, Tamazight and Spanish languages
CORRECTIONS

Renamed the following:
  • Locations (only corrections. Additionally renamed all locations to standardized form):
    • Arrecife to Teguise
    • As-Sawira to Mogador
    • Betancuria to Maxorata
    • Las Palmas de Gran Canaria to Tamaraceite
    • Ouadane to Wadan
    • Remla to Sidi Fredj
    • Santa Cruz de la Gomera to Hipalán
    • Santa Cruz de la Palma to Tedote
    • Santa Cruz de Tenerife to Aguere
    • Tazhouda to Ras Kebdana
    • Ž-Ždīda to Mazaghan
Cultures
  • Renamed Berber culture group to Amazigh
  • Renamed Berber language to Tamazight
  • Renamed Kabylian culture to Kabyle
Raw Goods
  • Changed several Raw Goods as suggested
Terrain and Vegetation
  • Total Review
Locations
  • Redrew several Locations

Countries:
View attachment 1240651
View attachment 1240652
View attachment 1240653
View attachment 1240654
Morocco and Tunis have been split into several countries, while Fezzan is now a vassal of the Empire of Kanem although we have to improve how that is shown with the default map settings).

Dynasties:
View attachment 1240655

Locations:
View attachment 1240656
View attachment 1240657
View attachment 1240658
View attachment 1240659
The locations of the region, plus the bonus track of the Canary Island renaming.

Provinces:
View attachment 1240660

Areas:
View attachment 1240661

Terrain:
View attachment 1240662
View attachment 1240664
View attachment 1240665
Tons of changes!

Development:
View attachment 1240666
New map!

Harbors:
View attachment 1240667
Another new map! This one needs a bit of love, so feedback is pretty well welcomed, as usual!

Cultures:
View attachment 1240668
Some distribution changes in the cultures of the region, although there's some more work on minorities remaining, when we fix the couple of issues pending with our pop editor.

Languages:
View attachment 1240669
New map, and new language name, Tamazight!

Religions:
View attachment 1240670

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1240671
Lots of changes!

And that's all for today! Remember that this Friday we will start with our new series, Tinto Flavour! See you then!
Click to expand...
Once again asking for Malta's trade good to be changed to cotton as it was a major exporter of quality cotton at the time.
 
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Ok, second and hopefully better attempt at splitting Tamazight:

Language family: Amazigh (with a matching culture group)
Languages, dialects, and individual cultures within each dialect would then be:
Northern Berber
Tamazight​
Sanhaja​
Masmuda​
Zenati​
Zenati​
Chaoui​
Mozabite​
Kabyle​
Kabyle​
Tuareg
Tuareg​
Tuareg​
Eastern Berber
Eastern Berber​
Eastern Berber​
Guanche
Guanche​
Guanche​
Zenaga
Zenaga​
Lamtuna​
Godala​
Masufa​
 
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nyetflix2 said:
I'll add that Midelt, Ayt Dawud, Azilal, Tawrirt, Tafedna, Tednest, Afsu are also Amazigh towns or fall within Amazigh regions today, so unless there is a compelling reason for them to be Arab Moroccan I think their culture should be changed. Especially given that some of them currently have no significant minorities.

Zenati - Afsu, Tawrirt (the latter with a large Moroccan minority)
Sanhaja-Zenati mix - Midelt, Azilal
Masmuda - Ayt Dawud, Tafedna, Tednest
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The screenshot is probably done with "owner" localization.

All keys have been renamed to standard Wikipedia English names, plus added dynamic localizations in Arabic and a large list of Amazigh names too. Morocco having Arabic as official language ingame has its locations named in Arabic regardless of their culture (because as I said I presume Pavía has the option of "owner" language activated).
 
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Pavía said:
Yes, exactly.
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ZigTheNorweigan said:
Oh i see then i think the dynasty should probably be changed back to Marinid seeing as he was his brother and all unless im mistaken. Am i also right to assume they are at war with the main Marinids like Tlemcen is?

Additionally i thought Abu Ali the rebellious brother was supposed to be based out of Sjiilmassa but it doesent seem like he owns the location?
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Actually no.

Tafilalt represents the Marinid Brother. Touat is meant to represent the area controlled by Tribes that Ali relied on militarily and that later revolted. Since they were somewaht autonomous and the base of Ali was around Sijilmassa I decided to represent them as vassals of him.
 
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Tuat’s oases (from Adrar to Reganne) were home to a significant population of Tuati Jews. Tamentit* was host to a synagogue under the protection of its rulers until its destruction and their expulsion by a mob rallied by Muhammad al-Maghili (a Tlemcen ʿālim with hotly contested views on the status of dhimmis in the Maghreb and West Africa).

If the question is if they’re significant enough to be represented: Without the presence of Tuati Jews, there is no one for a fervent anti-dhimmis Maghrebi reformer to act on, be forced to leave for West Africa because of that enactment, then transform Islam there. al-Maghili was the greatest single influence on the state of Islam in the Sahel not only where it was already established, but also in the spread of the Maliki madhhab to the Fulani, Hausa, and Tuareg.

*Until then, in the 1300s, it was Bouda (the most westerly) that was the principal settlement and ksour of the area through which trans-Saharan trade arrived and departed across the Tanezfrout route which terminated in Walata. Ibn Battuta wrote the following:
"Then we arrived at Būda, which is one of the biggest villages of the Tuwāt. Its land consists of sand and salt pans. It has many dates which are not good, but its people prefer them to the dates of Sijilmāsa. There is no cultivation there nor butter nor oil. Oil is only imported to it from the land of the Maghrib. The food of its people is dates and locusts. These are abundant with them; they store them as dates are stored and use them for food. They go out to hunt them before sunrise, for at that time they do not fly on account of the cold."[13]
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The reason for Bouda’s replacement by Tamentit was brigandry among Bedouins from the Sus (Sous) region of Morocco.
One of their homelands lies three stages to the south of Sijilmāsa and is called Tuwāt. It consists of 200 qușūr strung out from west to east, of which the most easterly is called Tamanțīt, nowadays a flourishing place and a point of departure for merchants who pass to and fro between the Maghrib and the land of Māli of the Sūdān. ... The town of Būdā, the most westerly of these qușūr, used to be the point of departure for Wālātan, the outpost of the Mālī territory, but it was abandoned when the bedouin Arabs from the desert of the Sūs took to acts of brigandry on the highway and molesting the caravans. They left that place and followed the route to the land of the Sudān by way of Tamanțīt.[16]
Click to expand...
 
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