Tinto Maps #13 Maghreb Feedback

[Farfour]

Touat is meant to represent the area controlled by Tribes that Ali relied on militarily and that later revolted. Since they were somewaht autonomous and the base of Ali was around Sijilmassa I decided to represent them as vassals of him.

What tribes were these?

On one hand, it is said the Ziyyanids held influence through tribal alliances. On the other hand, it’s also said that the Touat, Tementit (possibly erroneous or redundant), and Draa regions were governed by a Ziyyanid sheik.

Through tribal alliances, the Ziyyanids had a certain influence over the Touat.[18][19]

In the south the Zayyanid realm included the Tuat, Tamentit, and Draa regions which was governed by Abdallah Ibn Moslem ez Zerdali, a sheikh of the Zayyanids.[11][12][5]

-Given that Touat is where the zayyanids fled and took refuge after the marinids conquered them it makes little sense that they would be a marinid vassal at start.

The Zayyanids did not flee to Touat, but to the Gourara (also “Tigurarin”) region, which is considerably north and was linguistically distinct. Gourara and Touat have historically been home to the Zenati languages of Gurara and Tuwat, respectively. But where Gurara is categorized in the Mzab-Wargla/Northern Saharan oasis cluster, Tuwat is categorized in the Riff cluster.

 

[nyetflix2]

The screenshot is probably done with "owner" localization.

All keys have been renamed to standard Wikipedia English names, plus added dynamic localizations in Arabic and a large list of Amazigh names too. Morocco having Arabic as official language ingame has its locations named in Arabic regardless of their culture (because as I said I presume Pavía has the option of "owner" language activated).

Thanks for the reply, but I was taking about pop culture in the locations, not the name localizations?

 

[Aldaron]

Thanks for the reply, but I was taking about pop culture in the locations, not the name localizations?

Sorry I misunderstood your post.

Pops have not been worked on as has happened with other regions due to some issues with our tools. Pavía has already spoken about it.

In any case, thanks for the heads up.

 

[nyetflix2]

But where Gurara is categorized in the Mzab-Wargla/Northern Saharan oasis cluster, Tuwat is categorized in the Riff cluster.

It looks like it's debated, as ethnologue considers Tuwat and Gurara the same language. I have a hunch the variety of Touat shares some features with Tarifit and some with the variety of Gourara.

 

[Huskermax5]

So for Harbors going my modern day my nominations would be Toburk Algeriers Bizerte Sale/Rahat Sfax Oran Melilla . The later 3 may be superfluous

 

[matfer13]

The povince of Al-Ğifāra should be split in two so to recreate the hsitorical border between Ottoman Tunis and Tripolitania which is how Lybia was divided for the majority of the time period

 

[Atromb]

Sorry I misunderstood your post.

Pops have not been worked on as has happened with other regions due to some issues with our tools. Pavía has already spoken about it.

In any case, thanks for the heads up.

Ah, pop culture in the region is still wip? I feel more hopeful now.
Have you taken any final decision on what to do with moroccan/algerian/tunisian as cultures?

 

[Aldaron]

Ah, pop culture in the region is still wip? I feel more hopeful now.
Have you taken any final decision on what to do with moroccan/algerian/tunisian as cultures?

No decision has been made that it is final.

 

[grandadmiralbob]

MZAB IS IN PROJECT CAESAR, GAME OF THE YEAR!!!

They even added his little brother Zab. Maybe Mzabzab will finally be a formable empire to compete with JanMayen.
Seriously though, the amount of time spent on listening and editing the map and all of it's features is REALLY impressing me. Thanks devs, keep up the good work!

 

[evilon]

I just wanted to say that the top map/screenshot made me really visualize Sahara as a sea of sand. Thanks for that

 

[Cephei80]

The ruler of Tunis in this time period had the title of Caliph, will this be represented through a decision like in Eu4 or are there mechanics related to the Hafsid Caliphate?

big wrong , caliphs needed a kind of mandate to pretend it , the only caliphates that existed were the split away 2 caliphates in morocco of almohad and almoravid dynasties in the maghreb and for the east you have Rashidun , ummayads , abbasids , fatimids , ottomans . these are all the official caliphates to ever exist .
even if the hafsid pretend he was , the imams will rule that out , hafsides rulers were ranked sheikhs religiously and sultans royally . tlmecen had an emir , Marinids started with sheikhs then got an emir who also switched to Sultan .
if anyone pretend he is a caliph then he is a pretender to not be taken seriously or its a grave historical mistake .

there is only 2 titles that circulated ,emir el mouminin actually held by morocco , and caliph that was disolved the 1920s by ottomans . these 2 titles were often held both by ottomans but morocco being the biggest and oldest monarchy of the time reclaimed the title of emir el mouminin from the ottomans a few times (not to be confused with title of emir simply that mean prince or duke )

 

[CaesarOfCK]

big wrong , caliphs needed a kind of mandate to pretend it , the only caliphates that existed were the split away 2 caliphates in morocco of almohad and almoravid dynasties in the maghreb and for the east you have Rashidun , ummayads , abbasids , fatimids , ottomans . these are all the official caliphates to ever exist .
even if the hafsid pretend he was , the imams will rule that out , hafsides rulers were ranked sheikhs religiously and sultans royally . tlmecen had an emir , Marinids started with sheikhs then got an emir who also switched to Sultan .
if anyone pretend he is a caliph then he is a pretender to not be taken seriously or its a grave historical mistake .

there is only 2 titles that circulated ,emir el mouminin actually held by morocco , and caliph that was disolved the 1920s by ottomans . these 2 titles were often held both by ottomans but morocco being the biggest and oldest monarchy of the time reclaimed the title of emir el mouminin from the ottomans a few times (not to be confused with title of emir simply that mean prince or duke )

Just a small correction: The almohads were caliphs, that's true but the almoravids weren't. The almoravids started was an emirate but never considered themselves Caliphs, but "Princes of Muslims", while aknowledging the Almoravid titles. They are later called Sultans.
The Saadi dynasty later claimed to be Caliphs, and it was recognized only by another state, they were more pretenders to the caliphate than real caliphs, but never recongnized the Ottomans as true caliphs.

Just like no one recongnizes the title of caliphs or Emir of Muslims or Emir of believers nowadays (even if some states in the 21th century tried to make it recognized)

 

[Djazairi]

It feels very weird and anachronistic to talk about Tunisian, Moroccan and Algerian cultures in 1337.

Those are modern nation states constructions that are still debatable even today and were not a thing back then.

In my opinion the culture should be Maghrebi plain and simple like Levantine is for the east.

Also, Tripolitania was part of المغرب الادنى - Al maghrib al adna and not considered a separate geographic area.

The ottomans made it its own province/entity much later.

 

[CaesarOfCK]

It feels very weird and anachronistic to talk about Tunisian, Moroccan and Algerian cultures in 1337.

Those are modern nation states constructions that are still debatable even today and were not a thing back then.

In my opinion the culture should be Maghrebi plain and simple like Levantine is for the east.

Also, Tripolitania was part of المغرب الادنى - Al maghrib al adna and not considered a separate geographic area.

The ottomans made it its own province/entity much later.

It would be better to divide the maghrebi arab cultures in two groups: The Hilali arabs who were the bedouin arab and were simply considered warriors. And the Pre-Hilali/Andaloussi arabs who were considered the upper class of the society in Morocco at least (probably even in Tunis), and were seen as "more civilized" with a "prestigious" culture.

The Pre-Hilali arabs should be mostly in cities and towns while the Hilali arabs should be on the countryside, far from cities since they were mostly nomads and farmers.

Tripolitania should be part de jure of Al-Maghrib-Adna. It should be better that it gets called Ifriqya instead of Al-Maghrib-Adna since that was the term that was mostly used.

As for western sahara, it is very anachronistical to use that term for that period and should probably be part of Al-Maghrib-Al-Aqsa.

 

[nyetflix2]

It feels very weird and anachronistic to talk about Tunisian, Moroccan and Algerian cultures in 1337.

Those are modern nation states constructions that are still debatable even today and were not a thing back then.

In my opinion the culture should be Maghrebi plain and simple like Levantine is for the east.

Also, Tripolitania was part of المغرب الادنى - Al maghrib al adna and not considered a separate geographic area.

The ottomans made it its own province/entity much later.

The way the cultures abruptly stop at modern borders is weird, but I think one culture for Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia would be wrong especially when the culture map is so granular in Europe. There are significant differences in at least dialect and food between Morocco and Tunisia and probably other things too. Before colonization, Tunisia was also probably culturally closer to Western Libya than to Morocco.

 

[Djazairi]

It would be better to divide the maghrebi arab cultures in two groups: The Hilali arabs who were the bedouin arab and were simply considered warriors. And the Pre-Hilali/Andaloussi arabs who were considered the upper class of the society in Morocco at least (probably even in Tunis), and were seen as "more civilized" with a "prestigious" culture.

The Pre-Hilali arabs should be mostly in cities and towns while the Hilali arabs should be on the countryside, far from cities since they were mostly nomads and farmers.

Tripolitania should be part de jure of Al-Maghrib-Adna. It should be better that it gets called Ifriqya instead of Al-Maghrib-Adna since that was the term that was mostly used.

As for western sahara, it is very anachronistical to use that term for that period and should probably be part of Al-Maghrib-Al-Aqsa.

I don't agree, if the distinction doesn't exist between nomads and sedentary people in the Levant and in Iraq, why make it in the Maghreb ?

Yes there are cultural and linguistic differences between the pre-berber revolt sedentary Arabs and the nomadic tribes of Banu Sulaym and Banu Hilal but before their arrival, the number of sedentary Arabs in the Maghreb was extremely low and concentrated in the large cities of power.

It is the arrival of the nomads in the 12th century that gave birth to the Maghrebi culture and the progressive Arabization of the countryside.

I don't think that the game needs to go this far into subdivisions. Otherwise, we'll have a fun time dividing every single Arab culture into several ones. You can easily divide Egyptians into 3 cultures, Iraqis into 2 or more some would argue etc.

The name Ifriqiya could be used but to stay consistent with the 2 others, al adna is fine I think.
However we agree that Tripolitania shouldn't be its own entity at all, it's even anachronistic in a way.

Edit : المغرب الاقصى al maghrib al aqsa geographically stopped at the Draa river.

Anything beyond to the South isn't part of it.
Generally speaking, the Saharan tribes were VERY loosely controlled by the central authorities in the Maghreb. Most of the time we're talking on paper control which didn't last very long.

 

[Djazairi]

The way the cultures abruptly stop at modern borders is weird, but I think one culture for Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia would be wrong especially when the culture map is so granular in Europe. There are significant differences in at least dialect and food between Morocco and Tunisia and probably other things too. Before colonization, Tunisia was also probably culturally closer to Western Libya than to Morocco.

I am an Arab Algerian from eastern Algeria.
We are culturally closer to western Tunisians than to Algerians from the west in our language, traditional dress and food.
But in the same way, a Syrian from Aleppo is very different from a Lebanese from Beirut who lives on the coast or a nomadic Jordanian or from a Palestinian from Gaza.
However, it is indeed a single Levantine culture. The division of the Maghreb is political above all and not cultural, especially in 1337.
Up to this day, Tunisian are closer to Western Lybians than to Moroccans.

 

[nyetflix2]

I am an Arab Algerian from eastern Algeria.
We are culturally closer to Tunisians than to Algerians from the west in our language, traditional dress and food.
But in the same way, a Syrian from Aleppo is very different from a Lebanese from Beirut who lives on the coast or a nomadic Jordanian or from a Palestinian from Gaza.
However, it is indeed a single Levantine culture. The division of the Maghreb is political above all and not cultural, especially in 1337.

I get that, I'm just saying from one end to another it seems more different than the ends of the Levant. I learned the Moroccan dialect as a second language, and the Tunisian dialect seems so different, moreso than Palestinian versus Syrian I think. Western/Central Algerians are easyish to understand but I can still tell they're not Moroccan. Some Moroccans told me they had trouble with Tunisian dialect and that you have to get used to it just like with the Egyptian dialect.

There was a guy who proposed replacing Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian cultures with Maghrebi (covering Morocco and Western Algeria) and Ifriqiyan (covering Tunisia, Eastern Algeria and Tripoli). Is that more palatable?

 

[Djazairi]

I get that, I'm just saying from one end to another it seems more different than the ends of the Levant. I learned the Moroccan dialect as a second language, and the Tunisian dialect seems so different, moreso than Palestinian versus Syrian I think. Western/Central Algerians are easyish to understand but I can still tell they're not Moroccan. Some Moroccans told me they had trouble with Tunisian dialect and that you have to get used to it just like with the Egyptian dialect.

There was a guy who proposed replacing Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian cultures with Maghrebi (covering Morocco and Western Algeria) and Ifriqiyan (covering Tunisia, Eastern Algeria and Tripoli). Is that more palatable?

The difference comes from the fact that the Moroccan dialect(s) are more influenced by the Berber languages.
There are no palatable difference between the two you proposed honestly, at least not that would justify a completely different culture.
The division proposed above between nomads (Banu Hilal/Banu Sulaym) and settled arabs (pre migration) is more relevant I think.
But then you have to go down the rabbit hole of doing this with Levantine, Iraqi and Egyptian too.

 

[nyetflix2]

The difference comes from the fact that the Moroccan dialect(s) are more influenced by the Berber languages.
There are no palatable difference between the two you proposed honestly, at least not that would justify a completely different culture.
The division proposed above between nomads (Banu Hilal/Banu Sulaym) and settled arabs (pre migration) is more relevant I think.
But then you have to go down the rabbit hole of doing this with Levantine, Iraqi and Egyptian too.

The Berber influence is behind some words and probably the difference in pronunciation, but there are so many other differences that come from within Arabic. nnejjem vs kan9der, bzaf vs barcha, daba vs tawa, kanhder/kandwi vs ne7ki, lazemni/yilzimni vs khassni, bghit vs n7ebb/7ebbit, zwin vs bahi, mani vs ana machi, femma vs kain, and many more. In Morocco bech is "so/in order to", in Tunisia it seems to be the future tense. Past tense for you in Morocco is -ti for both genders, in Tunisia it's -t. The Tunisian pronunciation of alif is very distinct, they make it into é. All of these words come from Arabic, not Berber. And yeah they're easy to understand/pick up, but they make the dialects have a really different feel. Compare Palestinian and Syrian dialects and they'd be much closer and differ mainly in pronunciation, that's why they're one culture.

Anwyays they've already split Egyptian into two cultures - I don't know if it's the right choice, but they probably aren't going to undo it. and go look at how granular the French, German and now Polish cultures are, every little dialect and region is its own culture. So it'll be unbalanced to have one big Maghrei culture by comparison.