Tinto Maps #4 Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic Feedback

[Werther]

POPULATION
I think, that the town/city criteria shoul be not absolute, but relative within a certain region, so I would add a couple of towns in the region.

Yes, they should clarify the criteria because if it's absolute... Don't get me wrong, your post is really interesting and I learn a lot. But, at the same time, as a French, it really made me think: if they add all the 1000 habitants cities and towns in Eastern Europe, they better add all of our towns and cities (the 200 which had a convent or the 500 that sent bourgeois to the king). With 20 millions inhabitants (almost 1/3 of the European population) we probably deserve a bit more cities and towns if the criteria is absolute.

 

[RicardoTanaka]

I don’t understand why so few Paradox games include two-way peace treaties. Do we have an answer for this?

Historically, they were crucial in ending conflicts and balancing power, and they could add a new layer of depth to the gameplay. For example, at the beginning of the period in Project Caesar, while it’s true the Teutonic were at war with the Poles, the conflict actually ended in a bilateral peace with concessions from both sides.

Implementing such mechanics would bring more nuance and realism to the diplomacy system, I think we would have richer gameplay experiences while reflecting historical complexities more accurately.

 

[Ahoy123]

I see you kept name for Tábor province (in Jihočesko region) even if city/town of Tábor was not created up until 1420 when it was created by Hussites (by branch of radical Hussites called Táborité-Taborites). Much more important centre of this region was Sezimovo Ústí where local noble family resided.

Also I would suggest small historical easter egg. In Hradišťsko province especially in locations of Hradiště and Vizovice should be noticeable Wallachian minority which was result of Wallachian immigration which started early in 13th century into this region and eventually gave name for this region (Valašsko - [Czech] Wallachia). Wallachians then took part in important parts of our history like Vlach uprising during 30 years war. (but to be fair significant numbers of Wallachians came in 15. century)

 

[Mafinn_]

There is Chodzież near Szubin and Żnin. There should be Wągrowiec. In 1337 Chodzież did not existed, but Wągrowiec did. In overall Wągrowiec was more important for that region.

 

[Monty is staring at me]

I don’t understand why so few Paradox games include two-way peace treaties. Do we have an answer for this?

Historically, they were crucial in ending conflicts and balancing power, and they could add a new layer of depth to the gameplay. For example, at the beginning of the period in Project Caesar, while it’s true the Teutonic were at war with the Poles, the conflict actually ended in a bilateral peace with concessions from both sides.

Implementing such mechanics would bring more nuance and realism to the diplomacy system, I think we would have richer gameplay experiences while reflecting historical complexities more accurately.

This was explained by Johan, he said that the increase in difficulty to code the AI for two way peace deals would be exponential.

It's arguably not worth the development time, especially when the game presumably is still being built and there are more important priorities.

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

Yes, they should clarify the criteria because if it's absolute... Don't get me wrong, your post is really interesting and I learn a lot. But, at the same time, as a French, it really made me think: if they add all the 1000 habitants cities and towns in Eastern Europe, they better add all of our towns and cities (the 200 which had a convent or the 500 that sent bourgeois to the king). With 20 millions inhabitants (almost 1/3 of the European population) we probably deserve a bit more cities and towns if the criteria is absolute.

Sure, I totally agree. I just want to note that locations represent not only one town or city, but also some surrounding rural area within this location.
That's why I think that city/town criteria must be not absolute and universal only by pops, but relative to the region and represent some kind of regional power/trade/church importance.
Population number in the game is much more connected to the development indicator. And the development of the French rural locations must be significantly higher than that of the Ruthenian towns.

 

[KonPlayz]

Bialystok, Grodno and Lida are certainly missing East Slavic populations. Still very critical of the existence of “Smolenskian” and “Severian”, they feel like utter fiction.

 

[jabolmax]

Dzień dobry!

Below will be my analysis of this Feedback:

Countries:

I really like the refreshed map of countries. I'll just add from myself, countries that were created shortly after the game's launch date:

1. Duchy of Pless (in German: Pleß; in Czech: Pština; in Polish: Pszczyna) - 1424–1921
2. Duchy of Koźle (in German: Cosel; in Czech: Kozel) -1284–1532
3. Duchy of Bielsko (in German: Bielitz; in Czech: Bílsko) - 1572–1752
4. Duchy of Krnov (in German: Jägerndorf; in Czech: Krnov; in Polish: Karniów) - 1377–1849

Locations:

I really like the large number of completely new Locations. I respect the effort you put into this work!

But it's a pity that quite a few good old Locations were removed at the same time - in a special way in Prussia!

View attachment 1183608

More detailed map of Locations for Upper Silesia area:

View attachment 1183583
The letters indicate the current Locations that would remain in the game: A - Bytůń; B - Toszek; C- Koźle; D-Racibōrz; E- Pszczyna; F- Ćeszyn; G- Biylsko; H-Żywjec; I-Uośwjyńćim; J-Chrzanów; K-Mstów; L- Częstochowa; M- Lublyńec; N-Krnów.

1. Greifenhagen (in Kashubian: Gripiewò; in Polish: Gryfino)
2. Friedeberg in der Neumark (in Silesian: Krajyńske Strzelce; in Polish: Strzelce Krajeńskie)
3. Frankfurt an der Oder (in Silesian: Uodrzański Frankfurt)
4. Śwjybodźin (in German: Schwiebus)
5. Międzychód
6. Wolsztyn
7. Leszno
8. Rawicz
9. Września
10. Neustadt in Westpreußen (in Kashubian: Wejrowò)
11. Tiegenhof (in Kashubian: Nowi Dwór)
12. Preußisch Stargard (in Kashubian: Starogarda)
13. Prust (in Polish: Pruszcz)
14. Aleksandrów
15. Brodnica
16. Deutsch Eylau (in Polish: Iława)
17. Heiligenbeil (in Polish: Święta Siekierka)
18. Rastenburg (in Polish: Kętrzyn)
19. Sensburg (in Polish: Mrągowo)
20. Marggrabowa (in Polish: Olecko)
21. Johannisburg (in Polish: Pisz)
22. Augustavas (in Polish: Augustów)
23. Białystok
24. Wysokie
25. Ostrów
26. Otwock
27. Wyszków
28. Siematycze
29. Skierwienice
30. Kutno
31. Bełchatów
32. Tomaszów
33. Białobrzegi
34. Starachowice
35. Skarżysko
36. Włoszczowa
37. Pińczów
38. Kazimierza Wielka
39. Tarnobrzeg
40. Zamość
41. Bochnia
42. Gorlice
43. Poronin
44. Sucha Beskidzka
45. Wadowic (in Polish: Wadowice)
46. Biołŏ (in Polish: Biała)
47. Będzin (in Silesian: Byńdźin)
48. Olkusz
49. Tarnowske Gůry (in Polish: Tarnowskie Góry)
50. Katowicy (in Polish: Katowice)
51. Rybńik (in Polish: Rybnik)
52. Glywice (in Polish: Gliwice)
53. Zobrze (in Polish: Zabrze)
54. Wjelgo Ruda (in Polish: Ruda Śląska)
55. Kynighuta (in Polish: Chorzów)
56. Wałbrzich (in Polish: Wałbrzych)
57. Jelyńo Gůra (in Polish: Jelenia Góra)
58. Ślůnski Lwůwek (in Polish: Lwówek Śląski)
59. Lubań
60. Lubin
61. Uodrzański Bytům (in Polish: Bytom Odrzański)
62. Karwino (in Czech: Karvina)
63. Brůntal (in Czech: Bruntál)
64. Uostrawa (in Czech: Ostrava)
65. Frydek (in Czech: Frýdek)
66. Myslowicy (in Polish: Mysłowice)
67. Wisła
68. Mikołůw (in Polish: Mikołów)
69. Tychy
70. Żory
71. Bjerůń (in Polish: Bieruń)
72. Śwjyntochlowice (in Polish: Świętochłowice)
73. Polkowic
74. Piekary (in Polish: Piekary Śląskie)
75. Władźisłůw (in Polish: Wodzisław Śląski)
76. Strzelin
77. Olsztyn
78. Koniecpol
79. Biłgoraj
80. Leżajsk
81. Mława
82. Grodzisk
83. Braunsberg (in Polish: Braniewo)
84. Oliva (in Kashubian: Òlëwa)

Renaming

• Kożuchów rename into Kożuchůw
• Świdnica rename into Świdńica
• Krnów rename into Karńůw
• Gubczyce rename into Gubczice
• Frywałdów rename into Frywołdůw
• Hułczyn rename into Hulczyn
• Pszczyna rename into Pszczina
• Plock rename into Płock
• Znin rename into Żnin
• Dobrzyn rename into Dobrzyń
• Lubartow rename into Lubartów
• Poznan rename into Poznań
• Ląd rename into Słupca
• Urzędów rename into Kraśnik
• Kazimierz rename into Puławy
• Kunów rename into Ostrowiec
• Gąbin rename into Wyszogród
• Szadek rename into Zduńska Wola
• Brzeźnica rename into Pajęczno
• Buk rename into Nowy Tomyśl
• Rhein rename into Rößel
• Barten rename into Rhein
• Mirchau rename into Karthaus

Provinces:

View attachment 1183611

1. Sudovia
2. Neustadt in Westpreußen
3. Southern Kuyavia
4. Nur
5. Biała Podlaska
6. Kielce
7. Jasło
8. Żywiec
9. Racibórz
10. Bytom
11. Gliwice
12. Jelenia Góra
13. Leszno
14. Zielona Góra
15. Ostrava
16. Pszczyna
17. Będzin
18. Zamość

Areas:
View attachment 1183616
I suggest dividing the following areas:

1. Baltic into Estonia and Latvia
2. Prussia into West Prussia and East Prussia
3. Silesia into Lower Silesia and Upper Silesia
4. Eastern Poland area separated from Polesia, Volhynia, Mazovia and Lesser Poland.

Cultures:

View attachment 1183619

The culture map after the refresh is excellent. I like the proper representation of the cultures of the Balts the most. The division of large cultures such as Ruthenian and Polish adds more immersion and can be a chance for interesting missions to unify cultures, e.g.:

1. Polish - Greater Polish + Lesser Polish = Old Polish; Old Polish + Masovian = Polish
2. Ukrainian - Halychian + Volhynian + Ruthenian + Severian = Ukrainian
3. Belarusian - Polesian + Polatskian = Belarusian
4. Lithuanian - Aukstaitian + Samogitian + Sudovian = Lithuanian

I think it would be interesting to add some cultures:

1. Goral
2. Southern Estonian
3. Krivich
4. Dregovich
5. Ulich
6. Scanian (I know this doesn't apply to the regions in question, but I added it anyway because it can be seen on the map)

Rename Ruthenian into Polian.

Markets:
View attachment 1182584
In my opinion, Gdańsk (Danzig) is sorely missed as a Trade Center. This city was a very important member of the Hanseatic League and a major trade center in the region.

Names

Silesian

1. Kożuchów rename into Kożuchůw
2. Świdnica rename into Świdńica
3. Krnów rename into Karńůw
4. Gubczyce rename into Gubczice
5. Frywałdów rename into Frywołdůw
6. Hułczyn rename into Hulczyn
7. Pszczyna rename into Pszczina
8. Jawor (without rename)
9. Złotoryja (without rename)
10. Lubań (without rename)
11. Wschowa (without rename)
12. Oława (without rename)
13. Świdnica (without rename)
14. Koźle (without rename)
15. Żary (without rename)
16. Toszek (without rename)

The rest of the Silesian locations shown in this Feedback are fine.

Kashubian (also works for Polabian culture)

1. Stettin rename into Szcecëno
2. Wolin rename into Wòlëń
3. Schlawe rename into Słôwno
4. Berent rename into Kòscérzna
5. Kołobrzeg rename into Kòlbrzég
6. Butow rename into Bëtowò
7. Putzig rename into Pùckò
8. Dramburg rename into Drôwa
9. Lebork rename into Lãbórg
10. Wolgast rename into Wòłogòszcz
11. Rostock rename into Roztok
12. Belgard rename into Biôłogarda
13. Danzig rename into Gdúnjsk
14. Karthaus rename into Kartëzë
15. Tuchel rename into Tëchòlô
16. Saatzig rename into Stôrgard
17. Stolp rename into Stôłpskò
18. Wyrzysk rename into Wërzëskò
19. Schwetz rename into Swiecé
20. Flatow rename into Złotowò
21. Brandenburg rename into Branibòr
22. Ruppin rename into Rypin
23. Berlin rename into Kòpanica
24. Köslin rename into Kòszalëno
25. Dirschau rename into Dërszewò
26. Bydgoszcz rename into Bëdgòszcza

Goral (potential)

1. Nowy Sącz rename into Sonc
2. Jasło rename into Josiel
3. Nowy Targ rename into Miasto
4. Biecz rename into
5. Czchów rename into
6. Sucha Beskidzka rename into
7. Poronin rename into

there is no such thing as eastern Poland, historically or administratively, the division into eastern and western Prussia in the line you show is the 19th century, it could be Pomerania and Prussia, or the division after the Thirteen Years' War into royal and monastic Prussia.
also in the 14th century there was still something like Górals, there are Vlachs

 

[MiloMombasa]

Thank you for featuring my suggestions for Balga and Elbing!

 

[ethovoleu]

Hi,
I just want to add that Goniądz location in Podlasie province Masovia area - should be wetlands forest. Wetlands because Goniądz is located in the centre of Biebrza National Park which has a lot of swamps and Biebrza river has a lot of meanders too, this was also used in warfare.

I'm really glad to see actually this location in the game because I come from this little town that is forgotten now but was historically important, especially at this period of time.

Regards, Paweł

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

Bialystok, Grodno and Lida are certainly missing East Slavic populations. Still very critical of the existence of “Smolenskian” and “Severian”, they feel like utter fiction.

No, they are not, they follow the same logic as all other cultures in the region. Severian culture is not there due to the Severian tribe itself, but due to the name of that land, that historically comes from the name of the tribe.
The cultural division is based on the historical political division of the Kyivan Rus, based on its biggest and the most stable duchies that had existed for several centuries. According to this book, there is a strong suggestion that East Slavic identity evolved around the biggest principalities, so:

Volhynian culture - historical lands of the Volhynian Duchy
Halychan - the Duchy of Halych
Polesian - the Duchy of Turov-Pinsk
Polatskian - the Duchy of Polatsk
Smolenskian - the Duchy of Smolensk
Severian - the Duchy of Chernihiv
Ruthenian - the Duchies of Kyiv and Pereyaslav
Novgorodian - the Republic of Novgorod
Muscovite - the Duchies of Vladimir-Suzdal and Moscow

The core territory of the Duchy of Chernihiv is called Severia till now and it is the same cultural ethnographic region of Ukraine as Volhynia or Galicia. And the people that lived there at that time were called 'Sevruyks', they were kind of unique because they got used to live under much more direct mongolian rule than other southern Ruthenians. So it fits perfectly into the game logic.

 

[KonPlayz]

No, they are not, they follow the same logic as all other cultures in the region. Severian culture is not there due to the Severian tribe itself, but due to the name of that land, that historically comes from the name of the tribe.
The cultural division is based on the historical political division of the Kyivan Rus, based on its biggest and the most stable duchies that had existed for several centuries:

Volhynian culture - historical lands of the Volhynian Duchy
Halychan - the Duchy of Halych
Polesian - the Duchy of Turov-Pinsk
Polatskian - the Duchy of Polatsk
Smolenskian - the Duchy of Smolensk
Severian - the Duchy of Chernihiv
Ruthenian - the Duchies of Kyiv and Pereyaslav
Novgorodian - the Republic of Novgorod
Muscovite - the Duchies of Vladimir-Suzdal and Moscow

The core territory of the Duchy of Chernihiv is called Severia till now and it is the same cultural ethnographic region of Ukraine as Volhynia or Galicia. And the people that lived there at that time were called 'Sevruyks', they were kind of unique because they got used to live under much more direct mongolian rule than other southern Ruthenians. So it fits perfectly into the game logic.

None of these “tribes” feature any distinct culture, language or customs whatsoever. In this timeframe, they were still all one east slavic people group, or at least split into “Russian” and “Ruthenian”, there is no way you are able to argue for the existence of a “Smolenskian” or “Severian” culture, language or dialect.

 

[Alucard122]

Will you add some achivements for Silesia? Cuz I would really love to do some of them! Also will silesia recive their own set of ideas and missions?

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

None of these “tribes” feature any distinct culture, language or customs whatsoever. In this timeframe, they were still all one east slavic people group, or at least split into “Russian” and “Ruthenian”, there is no way you are able to argue for the existence of a “Smolenskian” or “Severian” culture, language or dialect.

Nonsense. Maybe noone can argue only because of lack of really detailed sources from that period.

It is accepted that Old Ruthenian had many dialects. Some scientists do not even recognize Old Ruthenian as a language, but just as a term to describe dozens of East Slavic dialects in the ~9 – 13th centuries.
Even the common official Church Slavonic language had difeerent variations everywhere (called ізвод) because of different local influences.

But even when scientists try to classify the vulgar dialects into some groups, like here:

Хабургаев Г. А. Древнерусский язык // Языки мира. Славянские языки / ред. колл. А. М. Молдован, С. С. Скорвид, А. А. Кибрик и др. — М.: Academia, 2005. — 656 с.)

it turns out that 'Central dialect zone (Duchies of Polatsk, Smolensk, Chernihiv) contained genetically inhomogeneous dialects ... '.
In all others dialect zones they say about the dialects in plural too.

So it actually looks like I can argue the possibility that Smolensk was somehow different from Chernihiv. If even the book published by the Academy of Sciences says that even closer dialects within this one dialect group in the 13th century were inhomogeneous. And then there were another 50-100 years to 1337 of complete disintegration of the Kyivan Rus and totally different fates and political reality of each duchy.

Also according to this book, there is a strong suggestion that East Slavic identity evolved around the biggest principalities, so I think the devs have made the best decision that reflects the nuances for this region to have cultures based on the political division, that had lasted for around 400 years.

 

[ErnestvonLauenb]

Will you add some achivements for Silesia? Cuz I would really love to do some of them! Also will silesia recive their own set of ideas and missions?

There should be achievement for Duchy of Legnica, if they form Poland and maybe move capital to Wrocław - Dukes of Legnica were oldest branch of Piast family and therefore, considering principle of primogeniture, had strongest claims for kingdom of Poland.

 

[Pescavelho]

The Ukrainian name for Galicia is "Halychyna" not "Halychia", I've just noticed. I think "Halicia" is an alternative Latin name and you might've gotten the two mixed up.

 

[madrimas]

Very nice!
You've added Wiślica and that's good, but you've kept Busko-Zdrój and it's not make many sense since Busko wasn't even a siginificant village in that time.

I strongly suggest to change it into "Nowy Korczyn" or "Nowe Miasto Korczyn" as I mentioned before.

 

[Clyde Wallach]

Severia should be a province or possibly an area.

 

[ErnestvonLauenb]

Very nice!
You've added Wiślica and that's good, but you've kept Busko-Zdrój and it's not make many sense since Busko wasn't even a siginificant village in that time.

I strongly suggest to change it into "Nowy Korczyn" or "Nowe Miasto Korczyn" as I mentioned before.

Nowy Korczyn lies South of Wiślica. So they would have to swap Busko (renamed Korczyn) with Wiślica.
Ot they could just rename Busko to Szydłòw, as I've suggested earlier.

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

Cultures:

Spoiler: culture map

Some meaningful changes regarding the cultural setup of the region. We've decided to be a bit more consistent with the regions to the west, and we have split the Polish and Ruthenian cultures into their regional variants. We know that there will be a lot of questions regarding how this will work in the game, but we may ask for some patience about it, as we've got some changes planned regarding how it currently works, and we are aiming to show it in a Tinto Talks before the end of the year (and I can't say any more about this yet, sorry!). We've also added the Curonian and Sudovian cultures, and renamed the Western Baltic one to Pruthenian, adding some more cultural granularity.

Haven't noticed this earlier, but is there a "Ruthenian" culture in the southeastern corner? I definitely agree with Polesians, Volhynians, Halychians, Rusyns, etc, being separate cultures, but in that case having another that's called Ruthenian doesn't really fit as all of the former would identify themselves as Ruthenian. I think that Kyivan/Kievan (or perhaps even Ukrainian, but that's debatable and deserving further research) would be a better name.

I also agree with the earlier posts arguing that Łęczyca and Sieradz should be Greater Polish culture, as they followed Greater Polish laws; if not both of them, then Łęczyca at the very least (the dialectal division between Lesser and Greater Polish is a bit murky there). I also think that a separate "Central Poland" area might be unnecessary, it can be merged with Greater Poland, as it was the province in which these territories belonged for the entire Commonwealth period.